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Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

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  • bg7701xj
    You stated you used the lathe for a few years after rebuilding it... Did you experience these issues at time of sale? Did buyer see the lathe run before
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
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      You stated you used the lathe for a few years after rebuilding it... Did you experience these issues at time of sale? Did buyer see the lathe run before agreeing to the price? Did you put a warranty (8 month) on the lathe?
      Did anyone else here read the post/update from the buyer?
      If there was no known issues at time of sale then who knows what happened since you last seen it.
      Buyer beware...Sometimes seller beware!

      --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:
      >
      > John
      > I remember the thread on this lathe but whats going on now is news to me. So here again some machines or other items are sold in cash. Basically you hand me cash and the machine is yours. I bought many things this way.
      > >If t item did not pass my inspection and was miss represented i try to renegotiate if i want the item bad enough. If no agreement can be made i walk away.
      > >I sold a corvette years ago, a man bought it for his son at the test drive the kid stuck his foot in it. I said no no the cars is not yours yet drive properly. Ok daddy bought it for the son. I sold it as is.The car was a good runner with out problems. 2 days later daddy came to my house and said the motor blew and asked what i would do about it.
      > >I replied not a thing i said to daddy your son stuck his foot in it and over refed the motor and i told him about the test drive. I said the receipt i gave you states as is. He threatened court and all that stuff. But guess nothing happened. Some month later i saw the kid and flat asked him if he stuck his foot in it, he replied yes i did.
      > >>So this lathe i would send the buyer a letter if he pushes the issue if not i let it go away. If a letter is needed i would explain that the lathe  was used  with out warranty's or guaranty's. Now if there is a written statement on the condition and so on it becomes another issue. Like i said in the thread before tell the buyer to go and suck a egg. That's how i would handle it. From what i read here it looks to me the buyer wants a free lathe
      >
      > GP
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: JOHN ASHBURN <ashburn_john@...>
      > To: "atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com" <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 5:58 PM
      > Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > Here in Aust we have a policy caveat emptor   let the buyer beware.
      > If you buy some thing privately is usually the purchaser to inspect the article and buy it,negotiating a price  and  its condition dictate the sale agreement.
      > If you sell is always a note to add ''sold with all faults and defects if any'' on the buyers receipt.
      > Since you have offered 175 dollars  to me you are possibly admitting that maybe a fault was there at sale time.This could be used against you if it went to court.
      > Like the last poster come to some agreement without litigation.It may go pear shaped as there are lots of greedy lawyers out there. John.
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: David Weaver <abigalesdad@...>
      > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013 7:44 AM
      > Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
      >
      >  
      > Stay away from attorneys and the court.  Settle for least you can with some written assurances of no future lawsuits, etc.  Move on.
      >  
      > From:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com [mailto:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of crashbone256
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:36 PM
      > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
      >  
      >  
      > Hello Group,I have a vexing legal issue pending regarding thepast sale of my personal shop Craftsman 12 x 36.History:The machine was very rough when I got it.The machine was _completely_ dismantled, wire brushed, electrolytically cleaned, repaired, painted, lubed and rebuilt.The only obvious flaw was a 1Ã" triangle missing at the tail end of the bed way. There are new lead screw half nuts, new cross slide and compound nuts.There are new inner and outer bearing dust covers.There is new half nut scroll, ball and spring.The crown miter gear key has been replaced with a brass key.The traverse case has been reinforced at the feet.The tailstock clamp have been machined for a better clamping action and release.V-belts are replaced with link belts for smoother power, less vibration.The original motor was replaced with a 1/2 HP 220VAC 3ph TEFC running from a fan cooled heat sink mounted 120 VAC 1ph Minarik VFD. The original countershaft, spindle pulley and back
      > gear were maintained.I used the lathe for a few years after rebuild in my shop. Then I decided I wanted to get a SBL. The lathe sold 8 months ago for $1100.The new owner has recently contacted me re suing me for mis-representation of goods.He has spent much time and money trying to get vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft support.I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor. $175He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.What would you do?
      >  
      >
    • Dave
      in most states the law is buyer beware...unless he can prove you deceived him..and it doesnt sound like you did..if he would have said something within the
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
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        in most states the law is buyer beware...unless he can prove you deceived him..and it doesnt sound like you did..if he would have said something within the first week of the sale the court might try to help him ...but after 8 months he doesnt have a leg to stand on in court...if he hauls you into court it will be small claims court and no lawyers are allowed in there...dont refund him anything or he will have some ammo to use on you in court..let him take you

        --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, Jon Elson <elson@...> wrote:
        >
        > crashbone256 wrote:
        > >
        > > He has spent much time and money trying to get vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft support.
        > >
        > > I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor. $175
        > >
        > > He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.
        > >
        > Can't believe he'd actually SUE for this amount. Wouldn't happen to be
        > a lawyer by trade, is he?
        >
        > Anyway, this is a STANDARD problem on the Atlas lathes, they ALL have
        > it to some degree. it depends on how badly the big pulley is warped, or
        > if the countershaft itself is bent. It is VERY easy to damage these parts
        > when moving the lathe.
        >
        > He mentions he had to buy TWO each of some parts to find some that were
        > serviceable. So, right there, that tells you (and him) that there are a lot
        > of parts floating around in poor condition.
        >
        > I can't really advise you what to do, you know your ability to defend
        > against
        > such a suit and the likelihood he will actually sue. I can't imagine he'd
        > sue in regular court, but maybe in small claims it might be affordable
        > for him to do so.
        >
        > Good luck!
        >
        > Jon
        >
      • jtiers
        Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ( save web page complete ) before you take it down after the sale. I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 3, 2013
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          Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ("save web page
          complete") before you take it down after the sale.

          I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis craig's list. Right in the ad I
          stated "this machine is used, no warranty, I am selling it as-is, where is,
          with all faults, you need to be prepared to inspect it, and when you buy it
          it is yours, no refunds or returns". First guy who looked at it bought it,
          didn't even try to deal, he paid right up, full pop ad price. And went away
          happy. I had thought that I might have to come down some from my stated
          price, so I had it a considerable amount above what I thought I needed for
          it. No need to worry there. And I had others interested as well.

          My own lathe, a Logan, has vibration at high speeds. Always has ever since
          I bought it used, was worse originally. It never occurred to me to complain
          to the seller, I fixed it to my satisfaction, and there it is.

          In this case, apparently your purchaser never contacted you to attempt to
          find resolution before tearing into it, and has substantially modified the
          machine since, or at least replaced things several times. He has apparently
          spent money on things (SS countershaft????) , more money than necessary,
          without result, and without contacting you. In so doing, without allowing
          you to do anything to mitigate whatever problem he claimed prior to his
          throwing money at the problem, it would appear to me that he has possibly
          messed it up himself.

          Unless you represented it to be "perfect", and the buyer was someone who
          would *not* be competent to discover your "false declarations" , by now he
          owns it, as-is etc.

          If you admitted fault and/or misrepresentation, that's one thing, but if you
          just offered him money basically to go away, without admitting fault, I
          doubt he will look very good in small claims court. He probably knows it.

          Maybe he has buyer's remorse, spent too much money that he needed to pay
          bills with, didn't clear it with wife, etc, etc...... and now wants you to
          bail him out.

          It's even possible that it worked OK, and that he then fouled it up when he
          tried to do something with it, or to it. Then, he may have decided to get
          out from under by seeing what he could squeeze out of you to cover his own
          self-caused problems. I find the "out of round" and "case broken" to be
          things which are very possibly his own fault, either in moving, or in use.
          And having an SS countershaft made for him is just crazy. he could have
          done that himself at lower speed, vibration or not, and SS is just useless
          bling there.

          Since vibration is extremely easy to detect by simply running the machine at
          all speeds before purchase, ESPECIALLY if it is so bad as to "be dangerous",
          even a novice could be expected to find it. and, in fact, he DID find it.
          Problem for him is he apparently found it after he bought the machine. Quite
          possibly after he CAUSED it. And, finding it makes him automatically a
          person who should have found it before purchase if that was important to
          him. He can't claim he was "too stupid to find it", he has already proved
          that isn't the case by finding it. And that assumes it is actually *that
          bad* and was *that bad* when sold to him.

          Myself, I would not refund anything other than the full purchase price, and
          that only if the machine were returned to me intact, with all accessories,
          delivered to the same place it was removed from.

          This sort of person is the kind who will bring it back and basically throw
          it at you, breaking more things without caring, because he is "only
          returning a broken machine", and have the gall to demand full refund for the
          thing he pushed out of the back of his pickup onto the concrete. Or demand
          that you pick it up, and then he won't have some of teh parts, it will be
          damaged, accessories "somewhere", but you will be expected to pay up in full
          anyway. Nope..... no money unless and until it is returned complete,
          intact, and with everything it was sold with.

          If you do any sort of partial refund, get a signed statement that this is
          full settlement of any and all claims, past, present, and future, and that
          no further claims will be made at any time for any reason. Compare the
          signature with his DL....... and have him print his name and address below
          it. That kind will scrawl something that he can later disavow as "a forgery,
          nothing like his genuine signature". Don't permit that.

          JT

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "bg7701xj" <billg1277@...>
          To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:31 PM
          Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used
          Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues


          > From:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of crashbone256
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:36 PM
          > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman
          > 12 x 36 Legal Issues
          > Â
          > Â
          > Hello Group,I have a vexing legal issue pending regarding thepast sale of
          > my personal shop Craftsman 12 x 36.History:The machine was very rough when
          > I got it.The machine was _completely_ dismantled, wire brushed,
          > electrolytically cleaned, repaired, painted, lubed and rebuilt.The only
          > obvious flaw was a 1Ã" triangle missing at the tail end of the bed way.
          > There are new lead screw half nuts, new cross slide and compound
          > nuts.There are new inner and outer bearing dust covers.There is new half
          > nut scroll, ball and spring.The crown miter gear key has been replaced
          > with a brass key.The traverse case has been reinforced at the feet.The
          > tailstock clamp have been machined for a better clamping action and
          > release.V-belts are replaced with link belts for smoother power, less
          > vibration.The original motor was replaced with a 1/2 HP 220VAC 3ph TEFC
          > running from a fan cooled heat sink mounted 120 VAC 1ph Minarik VFD. The
          > original countershaft, spindle pulley and back
          > gear were maintained.I used the lathe for a few years after rebuild in my
          > shop. Then I decided I wanted to get a SBL. The lathe sold 8 months ago
          > for $1100.The new owner has recently contacted me re suing me for
          > mis-representation of goods.He has spent much time and money trying to get
          > vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and
          > countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS
          > spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a
          > pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He
          > also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft
          > support.I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor.
          > $175He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from
          > the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.What
          > would you do?
          > Â
          >




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        • JOHN ASHBURN
          Hi all refer to my recent post.If the buyer refused your 175 dollar offer then withdraw it .Send a registered letter with a return paid one.He doesn t really
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
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            Hi all refer to my recent post.If the buyer refused your 175 dollar offer then withdraw it .Send a registered letter with a return paid one.He doesn't really stand to win a free lathe,especially if he played with it.Voids all his claims.
            Don't get into a shite fight.A learning curve for you.Move on.
            A true event happened to us many years ago where a car sold by us was brought back 2 weeks after a sale,claiming all sorts of faults and demanding their refund in full.My late father gave them their money back.They took off with the cash and the car.The car was mechanically sound we were both qualified mechanics and we never sold crap.Police said stiff as was in their name.
            I was told later that the guy who bought the car was bragging in a pub how he ripped off 2 dumb ass people.
            A month later he died from a heart attack.Must have been the stress of ripping some one off. So with that sit back and let Karma happen it does get them in the end.


            From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
            To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013 3:20 PM
            Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

             
            Always put the as-is etc in the ad, and save the ad ("save web page
            complete") before you take it down after the sale.

            I sold a Southbend recently, St Louis craig's list. Right in the ad I
            stated "this machine is used, no warranty, I am selling it as-is, where is,
            with all faults, you need to be prepared to inspect it, and when you buy it
            it is yours, no refunds or returns". First guy who looked at it bought it,
            didn't even try to deal, he paid right up, full pop ad price. And went away
            happy. I had thought that I might have to come down some from my stated
            price, so I had it a considerable amount above what I thought I needed for
            it. No need to worry there. And I had others interested as well.

            My own lathe, a Logan, has vibration at high speeds. Always has ever since
            I bought it used, was worse originally. It never occurred to me to complain
            to the seller, I fixed it to my satisfaction, and there it is.

            In this case, apparently your purchaser never contacted you to attempt to
            find resolution before tearing into it, and has substantially modified the
            machine since, or at least replaced things several times. He has apparently
            spent money on things (SS countershaft????) , more money than necessary,
            without result, and without contacting you. In so doing, without allowing
            you to do anything to mitigate whatever problem he claimed prior to his
            throwing money at the problem, it would appear to me that he has possibly
            messed it up himself.

            Unless you represented it to be "perfect", and the buyer was someone who
            would *not* be competent to discover your "false declarations" , by now he
            owns it, as-is etc.

            If you admitted fault and/or misrepresentation, that's one thing, but if you
            just offered him money basically to go away, without admitting fault, I
            doubt he will look very good in small claims court. He probably knows it.

            Maybe he has buyer's remorse, spent too much money that he needed to pay
            bills with, didn't clear it with wife, etc, etc...... and now wants you to
            bail him out.

            It's even possible that it worked OK, and that he then fouled it up when he
            tried to do something with it, or to it. Then, he may have decided to get
            out from under by seeing what he could squeeze out of you to cover his own
            self-caused problems. I find the "out of round" and "case broken" to be
            things which are very possibly his own fault, either in moving, or in use.
            And having an SS countershaft made for him is just crazy. he could have
            done that himself at lower speed, vibration or not, and SS is just useless
            bling there.

            Since vibration is extremely easy to detect by simply running the machine at
            all speeds before purchase, ESPECIALLY if it is so bad as to "be dangerous",
            even a novice could be expected to find it. and, in fact, he DID find it.
            Problem for him is he apparently found it after he bought the machine. Quite
            possibly after he CAUSED it. And, finding it makes him automatically a
            person who should have found it before purchase if that was important to
            him. He can't claim he was "too stupid to find it", he has already proved
            that isn't the case by finding it. And that assumes it is actually *that
            bad* and was *that bad* when sold to him.

            Myself, I would not refund anything other than the full purchase price, and
            that only if the machine were returned to me intact, with all accessories,
            delivered to the same place it was removed from.

            This sort of person is the kind who will bring it back and basically throw
            it at you, breaking more things without caring, because he is "only
            returning a broken machine", and have the gall to demand full refund for the
            thing he pushed out of the back of his pickup onto the concrete. Or demand
            that you pick it up, and then he won't have some of teh parts, it will be
            damaged, accessories "somewhere", but you will be expected to pay up in full
            anyway. Nope..... no money unless and until it is returned complete,
            intact, and with everything it was sold with.

            If you do any sort of partial refund, get a signed statement that this is
            full settlement of any and all claims, past, present, and future, and that
            no further claims will be made at any time for any reason. Compare the
            signature with his DL....... and have him print his name and address below
            it. That kind will scrawl something that he can later disavow as "a forgery,
            nothing like his genuine signature". Don't permit that.

            JT

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "bg7701xj" <billg1277@...>
            To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 9:31 PM
            Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used
            Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues

            > From:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of crashbone256
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 3:36 PM
            > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman
            > 12 x 36 Legal Issues
            > Â
            > Â
            > Hello Group,I have a vexing legal issue pending regarding thepast sale of
            > my personal shop Craftsman 12 x 36.History:The machine was very rough when
            > I got it.The machine was _completely_ dismantled, wire brushed,
            > electrolytically cleaned, repaired, painted, lubed and rebuilt.The only
            > obvious flaw was a 1Ã" triangle missing at the tail end of the bed way.
            > There are new lead screw half nuts, new cross slide and compound
            > nuts.There are new inner and outer bearing dust covers.There is new half
            > nut scroll, ball and spring.The crown miter gear key has been replaced
            > with a brass key.The traverse case has been reinforced at the feet.The
            > tailstock clamp have been machined for a better clamping action and
            > release.V-belts are replaced with link belts for smoother power, less
            > vibration.The original motor was replaced with a 1/2 HP 220VAC 3ph TEFC
            > running from a fan cooled heat sink mounted 120 VAC 1ph Minarik VFD. The
            > original countershaft, spindle pulley and back
            > gear were maintained.I used the lathe for a few years after rebuild in my
            > shop. Then I decided I wanted to get a SBL. The lathe sold 8 months ago
            > for $1100.The new owner has recently contacted me re suing me for
            > mis-representation of goods.He has spent much time and money trying to get
            > vibration out of the drive system, particularly the motor and
            > countershaft. He also states the traverse case was broken and the HS
            > spindle / bull gear were out of round. He had to buy two of each to find a
            > pair that were decent and he had a new motor shaft machined from SS. He
            > also had much work done to the motor mount plate and countershaft
            > support.I have offered to reimburse him for a new traverse case and motor.
            > $175He wants about $500 - $700 refunded since he claims the vibration from
            > the countershaft and motor made the machine unsafe to use at high rpm.What
            > would you do?
            > Â
            >

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          • Jim Ash
            Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I d consider it. Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
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              Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I'd consider it.

              Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an old car from a guy several hours' ride from here. It was sold as drivable. I bought it in November, and put it in my barn until the following summer. When I went to get it inspected, I found out the structure of the car was rotted away and there's no way it would pass inspection. I'm not a fan of law suits, so I contacted the seller directly to settle it with some integrity, but he blew me off with "You're a big boy" (I still remember the verbiage, which I quoted for the judge). I got pissed and took detailed notes of all our conversations. After some research, I found out NH law requires a dealer (he had a dealer's license) to have have both his and the buyer's signatures on a special, state-supplied form stating that all parties are in agreement the vehicle wasn't road-worthy at time of sale. I never saw such a form, and neither did he. When a car fails inspection, a lot of inspection stations around here just tell you what's wrong and tear up the paperwork. If they file a failure with the state, it requires more paperwork at the next inspection specifically addressing the points of failure from the first inspection. I had my guy file an inspection failure. I filed a small claim in my local court, 20 minutes' ride for me, 3 hours' ride for him. I've never done one before. The judge heard the case, but didn't offer a ruling, forcing the seller to drive up and drive back. A week later, we got a notice in the mail ruling in my favor and negating the sale. Because of the failed inspection on file, the seller couldn't get a temporary registration to drive it home. He drove up with a flat bed rig for it, costing more time and expense.

              You may not have done anything wrong, but if this guy can use the legal system to jerk you around and waste your time (as I did to the guy above), then maybe you need to draw a line where you compromise your cash for your hassle. Beyond that, see you in court. I can't imagine a judge ruling against you over an old used machine that he bought quite some time prior, and has since modified, so it might be a bluff, or the judge might be his brother-in-law. Too bad our legal system doesn't allow winning defendants of nuisance suits like this appears to be to recoup time and expenses from the plaintiff.

              Jim Ash
            • Guenther Paul
              Jim No comparison. The seller of the lathe was not a dealer, Automotive fall in a totally diverant category. Yes it is best to leave courts out of it. In this
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
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                Jim
                No comparison. The seller of the lathe was not a dealer, Automotive fall in a totally diverant category.
                Yes it is best to leave courts out of it. In this case i would just go the route i explained in previous threads.
                I bean to court many times, small claims, district and circuit  when i was in buisnes its no fun but in some cases its the way to go
                Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
                 
                GP
                From: Jim Ash <ashcan@...>
                To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 12:11 PM
                Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
                 
                 
                Right or wrong, a suit can be a nuisance and if you can minimize the hassle without admitting any wrong doing, I'd consider it.

                Maybe 5 years ago, I bought an old car from a guy several hours' ride from here. It was sold as drivable. I bought it in November, and put it in my barn until the following summer. When I went to get it inspected, I found out the structure of the car was rotted away and there's no way it would pass inspection. I'm not a fan of law suits, so I contacted the seller directly to settle it with some integrity, but he blew me off with "You're a big boy" (I still remember the verbiage, which I quoted for the judge). I got pissed and took detailed notes of all our conversations. After some research, I found out NH law requires a dealer (he had a dealer's license) to have have both his and the buyer's signatures on a special, state-supplied form stating that all parties are in agreement the vehicle wasn't road-worthy at time of sale. I never saw such a form, and neither did he. When a car fails inspection, a lot of inspection stations around here just tell you what's wrong and tear up the paperwork. If they file a failure with the state, it requires more paperwork at the next inspection specifically addressing the points of failure from the first inspection. I had my guy file an inspection failure. I filed a small claim in my local court, 20 minutes' ride for me, 3 hours' ride for him. I've never done one before. The judge heard the case, but didn't offer a ruling, forcing the seller to drive up and drive back. A week later, we got a notice in the mail ruling in my favor and negating the sale. Because of the failed inspection on file, the seller couldn't get a temporary registration to drive it home. He drove up with a flat bed rig for it, costing more time and expense.

                You may not have done anything wrong, but if this guy can use the legal system to jerk you around and waste your time (as I did to the guy above), then maybe you need to draw a line where you compromise your cash for your hassle. Beyond that, see you in court. I can't imagine a judge ruling against you over an old used machine that he bought quite some time prior, and has since modified, so it might be a bluff, or the judge might be his brother-in-law. Too bad our legal system doesn't allow winning defendants of nuisance suits like this appears to be to recoup time and expenses from the plaintiff.

                Jim Ash

                 
              • James Irwin
                I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
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                  Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer when credit applications require one about whether you’ve ever had a judgment against you. You don’t want to get caught lying on one of these! A lawyer might get an award of damages (actual costs of your defense) against the plaintiff, if it goes your way.

                  I used to have a motor home. Rented it to a guy who put in writing he was going a short distance and would be responsible for clean-up & any damage repairs. He went many times as far as he said to places he was not supposed to go, and brought it back filthy. We charged him for all the mileage and clean-up costs. He filed in small claims with all sorts of completely bogus claims. Wanted all charges refunded, even the rent! We went to court with pictures and bills. Judge saw what was going on, but still ordered him to pay the rental, and us to refund the cleaning charges. So no one was happy. Was justice served? What a waste of time! Still, if we hadn’t shown up, we’d have lost over a thousand on fair rental fees.

                  Some folks are slime-balls. Get over it and use the system to get some sort of justice.

                  Jim Irwin


                  On 7/4/13 11:45 AM, "Guenther Paul" wrote:

                  Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
                • Guenther Paul
                  Jim You hit on the head with your last sentence GP ________________________________ From: James Irwin To: Atlas
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 4, 2013
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                    Jim
                    You hit on the head with your last sentence
                     
                    GP
                    From: James Irwin <jirwin1@...>
                    To: Atlas <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 1:08 PM
                    Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: very OT: Help needed re sale of used Craftsman 12 x 36 Legal Issues
                     
                    I think that if one just ignores the case and it goes to court, one can expect a judgment against them. This shows up forever, and requires a truthful answer when credit applications require one about whether you’ve ever had a judgment against you. You don’t want to get caught lying on one of these! A lawyer might get an award of damages (actual costs of your defense) against the plaintiff, if it goes your way.

                    I used to have a motor home. Rented it to a guy who put in writing he was going a short distance and would be responsible for clean-up & any damage repairs. He went many times as far as he said to places he was not supposed to go, and brought it back filthy. We charged him for all the mileage and clean-up costs. He filed in small claims with all sorts of completely bogus claims. Wanted all charges refunded, even the rent! We went to court with pictures and bills. Judge saw what was going on, but still ordered him to pay the rental, and us to refund the cleaning charges. So no one was happy. Was justice served? What a waste of time! Still, if we hadn’t shown up, we’d have lost over a thousand on fair rental fees.

                    Some folks are slime-balls. Get over it and use the system to get some sort of justice.

                    Jim Irwin


                    On 7/4/13 11:45 AM, "Guenther Paul" wrote:

                    Court is a waist of time and money. I represented my self in all cases the judges all ways said i did a good job but they really want one to be represented by a lawyer. I would ignore the buyer unless there is no other way
                     
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