Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD

Expand Messages
  • James Rice
    Chinese built electronics which comprise most electronics these days, have a particular bad history with swelling and leaking electrolytic capacitors. This
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 29, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Chinese built electronics which comprise most electronics these days, have a particular bad history with swelling and leaking electrolytic capacitors.  This problem has dogged the IT industry for the last decade.  A possible apocryphal explanation that has floated around for years states that a Taiwanese scientist working at a Japanese capacitor plant stole what was supposed to be the formula for the electrolyte that was used in premium Japanese caps.  The story varies the this point, either the formula was incomplete or in typical Chinese fashion, lesser ingredients were substituted to reduce cost, but the end result was the capacitors have a much reduced life span.  I have no clue if the story is correct or not, but I have been fighting capacitor failures on computer motherboards since about 2001.   Dell and HP took multimillion dollar charges against earning several years ago to cover the cost of replacing millions of motherboards.

      I recently went on a machine buying binge so I have been cleaning out my shop to make room for an Atlas 7B, a South Bend 16x144 and a GA Gray planer.  I had over 100 bins of computer parts stored that are no too obsolete to be worth anything but scrap.  There were dozens of motherboards from the P1, P2 and P3 days that were NOS in the original packaging.  About 60% had swollen and leaking electrolytic caps. By contrast, the US built Silicon Graphics, Sun, NeXT and very early Apple parts are primarily in great functional condition.  I have some old Tandy and TI equipment from the 1980's that is in great shape as well.  

      James



      On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Curt Wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
       

      This is not peculiar to VFDs. Practically every electronic device uses
      electrolytic capacitors and they do deform if not powered for long
      periods of time. This is not as big a problem with today's low power,
      low voltage devices as it was in the tube days. But the higher the
      voltage and capacitance, the more chance that a weak dielectric layer
      will arc and cause a metal to metal short. The reason for the 5 hours
      and the slow application of voltage is to let the dielectric reform. It
      is actually an oxide layer that is grown by the gradual application of
      voltage in manufacture and the slow increase simulates that. In the
      vacuum tube days, it was quite common for the electrolytic capacitors to
      fail when a piece of long unused equipment was powered up. VFDs are one
      of the few remaining applications for large high voltage electrolytic
      capacitors. Photo flashes are another, so they recommend that you fire
      them up occasionally when not in regular use.

      Just another bit of soon to be obsolete knowledge garnered from an ill
      spent youth.

      Regards

      cww


    • warrengrant
      I agree 100% with everything that s been said about the VFD. You get what you pay for. I ve had one for two years and it still runs great. Don t mean it
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 30, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I agree 100% with everything that's been said about the VFD. You get what you pay for. I've had one for two years and it still runs great. Don't mean it will start the next time I turn it on. I've had a lot of medical issues the past 10 months so I've had to watch my dollar but sometimes that back fires. If things don't get better I may have to empty my shop. I did get my latest milling machine to work and the surface grinder using just one VFD and switching the cords from one machine to the other. Now I am turning on the VFD for about 10 minutes once a month to see if that helps.
        Thanks
        Warren

        --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <jerdal@...> wrote:
        >
        > Understatement of the year. Of course, others don't either, just good commercial parts, not floor-sweepings.
        >
        > Huanyang are cheap, fairly often smoke within 2 hours of turn-on, sometimes 2 seconds, and have been generally not very well-featured compared to not much more expensive units available from *real* suppliers. Sometimes they even work flawlessly, although that may be somewhat surprising.... Manuals often sub-par "chinglish".
        >
        > TBWoods, Baldor and others who are OEM re-labeled from other manufacturers, and actual manufacturers such as TECO, Invertek, and many others are available from the various surplus drives folks, and those units are well-made, well-featured, industrial goods. Manuals are as a rule substantially better than "chinglish".
        >
        > Your money, your choice
        >
        > JT
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: wa5cab@...
        > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:36 PM
        > Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ......... Huanyang ........... They probably do not use US MILSPEC components. :-)
        >
      • Curt Wuollet
        Electronic components quality doesn t work like heavy industry or the foundries. Actually, to a significant extent, low price drives quality. In
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 30, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Electronic components quality doesn't work like heavy industry or the
          foundries. Actually, to a significant extent, low price drives quality.
          In semiconductors, low yield parts cost more. So much more that making
          shoddy semiconductors is simply not feasible. That's also the case with
          most other components, the market is so commoditized and the levels of
          quality achieved are so high that there is simply no place for junk.
          Pick a piece of high end gear, open it up. Chances are that there are
          very few names you will recognize. There may be a little leeway with
          China Inc. because it is so strongly vertical, but I doubt there is
          much. You have to be very careful these days. Huanyang might even make
          some or all of the names you mentioned.

          It's like when I was shopping for Window air conditioners; GE,
          Fridgidaire, Fedders, I couldn't buy one that wasn't made by Gree in
          China. And most people have never heard of Gree.

          Just got me to thinking

          Regards

          cww

          On 06/30/2013 06:16 PM, warrengrant wrote:
          > I agree 100% with everything that's been said about the VFD. You get what you pay for. I've had one for two years and it still runs great. Don't mean it will start the next time I turn it on. I've had a lot of medical issues the past 10 months so I've had to watch my dollar but sometimes that back fires. If things don't get better I may have to empty my shop. I did get my latest milling machine to work and the surface grinder using just one VFD and switching the cords from one machine to the other. Now I am turning on the VFD for about 10 minutes once a month to see if that helps.
          > Thanks
          > Warren
          >
          > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <jerdal@...> wrote:
          >> Understatement of the year. Of course, others don't either, just good commercial parts, not floor-sweepings.
          >>
          >> Huanyang are cheap, fairly often smoke within 2 hours of turn-on, sometimes 2 seconds, and have been generally not very well-featured compared to not much more expensive units available from *real* suppliers. Sometimes they even work flawlessly, although that may be somewhat surprising.... Manuals often sub-par "chinglish".
          >>
          >> TBWoods, Baldor and others who are OEM re-labeled from other manufacturers, and actual manufacturers such as TECO, Invertek, and many others are available from the various surplus drives folks, and those units are well-made, well-featured, industrial goods. Manuals are as a rule substantially better than "chinglish".
          >>
          >> Your money, your choice
          >>
          >> JT
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: wa5cab@...
          >> To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
          >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:36 PM
          >> Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ......... Huanyang ........... They probably do not use US MILSPEC components. :-)
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
          > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
          > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
          >
          > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
          >
          > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
          > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • jtiers
          While there is some point to that, *the parts* are definitely NOT *the product*. Proper design, decent quality control, manufacturing, static electricity
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 30, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            While there is some point to that, *the parts* are definitely NOT *the
            product*.

            Proper design, decent quality control, manufacturing, static electricity
            control, consideration given to details like conformal coating of the
            boards, temperature testing, burn-in, etc,etc, all affect cost and all
            affect quality when at the customer's installation.

            Cut corners there, and you can save quite a bit of money, but you will pay
            for it with far higher failure rate. As the actual field experience with
            Huanyang indicates. They have, at least anecdotally, a far higher failure
            rate than "legitimate" products, and their failures tend to be drastic
            conflagrations, not a bad segment on an LED, or a dead analog input. Nobody
            talks about the failure rate of TECO the same way they do Huanyang....

            It's possible to make trash that looks superficially like a high quality
            product. Poor design, poor parts choices, poor choice of temperature
            ratings, poor choice of voltage ratings, poor choice of current ratings,
            insufficient care in manufacturing, lack of attention to static electricity,
            poor QC, any and all can cause a product to be crap instead of good. Yet it
            may LOOK OK visually, it may even look very good.

            It's possible to make a regular VFD into an unreliable, problem-riddled unit
            just by the choice of value for about a dozen tiny resistors, all of which
            together would easily fit on the nail of your pinky.

            Huanyang seem to have problems with almost all of those areas.

            Then also, in china, even cheaper parts can be had on secondary and tertiary
            markets.... "bad" parts that fell out of testing, and went "out the back
            door", being sold as good production parts. The chinese are acutely aware
            of the profit, and what we consider inexpensive parts, they know can be had
            even cheaper.

            JT


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Curt Wuollet" <wideopen1@...>
            To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:20 PM
            Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: FYI VFD


            > Electronic components quality doesn't work like heavy industry or the
            > foundries. Actually, to a significant extent, low price drives quality.
            > In semiconductors, low yield parts cost more. So much more that making
            > shoddy semiconductors is simply not feasible. That's also the case with
            > most other components, the market is so commoditized and the levels of
            > quality achieved are so high that there is simply no place for junk.
            > Pick a piece of high end gear, open it up. Chances are that there are
            > very few names you will recognize. There may be a little leeway with
            > China Inc. because it is so strongly vertical, but I doubt there is
            > much. You have to be very careful these days. Huanyang might even make
            > some or all of the names you mentioned.
            >
            > It's like when I was shopping for Window air conditioners; GE,
            > Fridgidaire, Fedders, I couldn't buy one that wasn't made by Gree in
            > China. And most people have never heard of Gree.
            >
            > Just got me to thinking
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > cww
            >
            > On 06/30/2013 06:16 PM, warrengrant wrote:
            >> I agree 100% with everything that's been said about the VFD. You get
            >> what you pay for. I've had one for two years and it still runs great.
            >> Don't mean it will start the next time I turn it on. I've had a lot of
            >> medical issues the past 10 months so I've had to watch my dollar but
            >> sometimes that back fires. If things don't get better I may have to
            >> empty my shop. I did get my latest milling machine to work and the
            >> surface grinder using just one VFD and switching the cords from one
            >> machine to the other. Now I am turning on the VFD for about 10 minutes
            >> once a month to see if that helps.
            >> Thanks
            >> Warren
            >>
            >> --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, <jerdal@...> wrote:
            >>> Understatement of the year. Of course, others don't either, just good
            >>> commercial parts, not floor-sweepings.
            >>>
            >>> Huanyang are cheap, fairly often smoke within 2 hours of turn-on,
            >>> sometimes 2 seconds, and have been generally not very well-featured
            >>> compared to not much more expensive units available from *real*
            >>> suppliers. Sometimes they even work flawlessly, although that may be
            >>> somewhat surprising.... Manuals often sub-par "chinglish".
            >>>
            >>> TBWoods, Baldor and others who are OEM re-labeled from other
            >>> manufacturers, and actual manufacturers such as TECO, Invertek, and
            >>> many others are available from the various surplus drives folks, and
            >>> those units are well-made, well-featured, industrial goods. Manuals are
            >>> as a rule substantially better than "chinglish".
            >>>
            >>> Your money, your choice
            >>>
            >>> JT
            >>> ----- Original Message -----
            >>> From: wa5cab@...
            >>> To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
            >>> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 11:36 PM
            >>> Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> ......... Huanyang ........... They probably do not use US MILSPEC
            >>> components. :-)
          • jtiers
            Per the Huanyang, here is an amusing video of the failure and repair of one of their delightful VFDs.... Note the failure mode of simply burning up the traces
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 4, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Per the Huanyang, here is an amusing video of the failure and repair of one
              of their delightful VFDs.... Note the failure mode of simply burning up the
              traces on the PWB.... possibly from single phase input, possibly not.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkf_0DCb4s

              The quality of construction is "interesting".....

              JT

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "warrengrant" <warrengrant@...>
              To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:50 AM
              Subject: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD


              > In reading some info on the VFD for my Mill I had overlooked something.
              > Since there has been some discussion in the past about VFDs I thought this
              > may be of interest to some. The Drive I have is Huanyang that I purchased
              > on Ebay. This may be of some help to you. I don't know if other VFDs
              > have the same problem but I can see where the capacitors could go weak. I
              > will be starting mine about every other month after reading this just to
              > be on the safe side as I have two of these. I also have an Eaton VFD but
              > I don't have a manual so I will do the same for it. Hope this helps.
              > Warren
              >
              > "It is better not to store the inverter for long time. Long time storage
              > of the inverter will lead to the deterioration of electrolytic capacity.
              > If it needs to be stored for a long time make sure to power it up one time
              > within a year and the power-up time should be at least above five hours.
              > When powered up the voltage must be increased slowly with a voltage
              > regulator to the rated voltage value."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
              > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
              > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
              >
              > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
              >
              > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
              > http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
              > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
              > mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Curt Wuollet
              Looks like a simple overload. I like at the last he finds a very reasonable mechanical cause. At the start he mentions the drive had been drawing excessive
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Looks like a simple overload. I like at the last he finds a
                very reasonable mechanical cause. At the start he mentions the
                drive had been drawing excessive current for 10 minutes or so.
                These are sold for industrial use and specified for use in an enclosure
                with appropriately sized input fusing _mandatory_. This would have
                been a non event if used as intended. No "shoddy components" blew.
                The traces simply melted due to excessive current. You can't size
                everything to withstand all the current the source can provide.
                If it were configured properly, it should have shut down from excessive
                motor current. In a single to three phase application the input current
                increases much faster than the output current. Misapplication/operator
                error. Unless you believe the traces weren't sized to carry rated input
                current.

                Regards

                cww




                On 07/04/2013 08:28 AM, jerdal@... wrote:
                > Per the Huanyang, here is an amusing video of the failure and repair of one
                > of their delightful VFDs.... Note the failure mode of simply burning up the
                > traces on the PWB.... possibly from single phase input, possibly not.
                >
                > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkf_0DCb4s
                >
                > The quality of construction is "interesting".....
                >
                > JT
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "warrengrant" <warrengrant@...>
                > To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:50 AM
                > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
                >
                >
                >> In reading some info on the VFD for my Mill I had overlooked something.
                >> Since there has been some discussion in the past about VFDs I thought this
                >> may be of interest to some. The Drive I have is Huanyang that I purchased
                >> on Ebay. This may be of some help to you. I don't know if other VFDs
                >> have the same problem but I can see where the capacitors could go weak. I
                >> will be starting mine about every other month after reading this just to
                >> be on the safe side as I have two of these. I also have an Eaton VFD but
                >> I don't have a manual so I will do the same for it. Hope this helps.
                >> Warren
                >>
                >> "It is better not to store the inverter for long time. Long time storage
                >> of the inverter will lead to the deterioration of electrolytic capacity.
                >> If it needs to be stored for a long time make sure to power it up one time
                >> within a year and the power-up time should be at least above five hours.
                >> When powered up the voltage must be increased slowly with a voltage
                >> regulator to the rated voltage value."
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                >> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                >> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >>
                >> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                >>
                >> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                >>
                >> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                >> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                >> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                >> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                >
                > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                >
                > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • jtiers
                Yes I do.... ecept that tehy may have had help from lousy solder, and undersizing. The silver strips on top were where solder was SUPPOSED TO add
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 4, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes I do.... ecept that tehy may have had help from lousy solder, and
                  undersizing. The silver strips on top were where solder was SUPPOSED TO
                  add cross-section, but unfortumately it apparently did not, from teh
                  close-up shots. Still, they appearsd to be adequate and some otehr cause
                  was the issue... something INSIDE the unit WRONG FROM THE FACTORY.

                  Single-phase? Do not make me laugh..... 7.5 kW unit..... run at 1.5 HP
                  single phase?... phooey.... We run units at single phase all teh time and
                  they don't blow up or melt traces at that extreme de-rating. Mostly the ones
                  we deal with are good at single phase full HP. Some 50% derate I also
                  design VFDs.... so I know how to spec things

                  That unit should not have had that failure, and no amount of apologizing for
                  cheap chinese goods can cover that point up...

                  JT


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Curt Wuollet" <wideopen1@...>
                  To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 9:52 AM
                  Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD


                  > Looks like a simple overload.
                  > The traces simply melted due to excessive current. You can't size
                  > everything to withstand all the current the source can provide.
                  > If it were configured properly, it should have shut down from excessive
                  > motor current. In a single to three phase application the input current
                  > increases much faster than the output current. Misapplication/operator
                  > error. Unless you believe the traces weren't sized to carry rated input
                  > current.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > cww
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 07/04/2013 08:28 AM, jerdal@... wrote:
                  >> Per the Huanyang, here is an amusing video of the failure and repair of
                  >> one
                  >> of their delightful VFDs.... Note the failure mode of simply burning up
                  >> the
                  >> traces on the PWB.... possibly from single phase input, possibly not.
                  >>
                  >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkf_0DCb4s
                  >>
                  >> The quality of construction is "interesting".....
                  >>
                  >> JT
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "warrengrant" <warrengrant@...>
                  >> To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:50 AM
                  >> Subject: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> In reading some info on the VFD for my Mill I had overlooked something.
                  >>> Since there has been some discussion in the past about VFDs I thought
                  >>> this
                  >>> may be of interest to some. The Drive I have is Huanyang that I
                  >>> purchased
                  >>> on Ebay. This may be of some help to you. I don't know if other VFDs
                  >>> have the same problem but I can see where the capacitors could go weak.
                  >>> I
                  >>> will be starting mine about every other month after reading this just to
                  >>> be on the safe side as I have two of these. I also have an Eaton VFD
                  >>> but
                  >>> I don't have a manual so I will do the same for it. Hope this helps.
                  >>> Warren
                  >>>
                  >>> "It is better not to store the inverter for long time. Long time storage
                  >>> of the inverter will lead to the deterioration of electrolytic capacity.
                  >>> If it needs to be stored for a long time make sure to power it up one
                  >>> time
                  >>> within a year and the power-up time should be at least above five hours.
                  >>> When powered up the voltage must be increased slowly with a voltage
                  >>> regulator to the rated voltage value."
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                  >>> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                  >>> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>>
                  >>> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                  >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                  >>>
                  >>> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                  >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                  >>>
                  >>> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                  >>> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                  >>> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                  >>> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                  >> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                  >> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>
                  >> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                  >>
                  >> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                  >>
                  >> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                  >> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                  >> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                  >> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                  > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                  > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                  >
                  > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                  >
                  > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                  > http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                  > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                  > mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Curt Wuollet
                  That s fine, have it your way. But provide input fusing so you never have to apologize for Reliance, Baldor, etc. On a related note: Most VFDs are rated for
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    That's fine, have it your way. But provide input fusing so
                    you never have to apologize for Reliance, Baldor, etc.
                    On a related note: Most VFDs are rated for limited charging cycles
                    per hour. Switching the input on and off frequently stresses the diodes
                    and can cause similar damage. Using the drive start and stop is much
                    less stressful on everything. The AB Powerflex 40 says 80 cycles per hour
                    some other drives are as low as 20. I've seen this cause problems where
                    a VFD was added to a motor that was cycled like a compressor or some
                    pumps. Machine spindles are often used this way.

                    Regards

                    cww


                    On 07/04/2013 02:28 PM, jerdal@... wrote:
                    > Yes I do.... ecept that tehy may have had help from lousy solder, and
                    > undersizing. The silver strips on top were where solder was SUPPOSED TO
                    > add cross-section, but unfortumately it apparently did not, from teh
                    > close-up shots. Still, they appearsd to be adequate and some otehr cause
                    > was the issue... something INSIDE the unit WRONG FROM THE FACTORY.
                    >
                    > Single-phase? Do not make me laugh..... 7.5 kW unit..... run at 1.5 HP
                    > single phase?... phooey.... We run units at single phase all teh time and
                    > they don't blow up or melt traces at that extreme de-rating. Mostly the ones
                    > we deal with are good at single phase full HP. Some 50% derate I also
                    > design VFDs.... so I know how to spec things
                    >
                    > That unit should not have had that failure, and no amount of apologizing for
                    > cheap chinese goods can cover that point up...
                    >
                    > JT
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Curt Wuollet" <wideopen1@...>
                    > To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 9:52 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
                    >
                    >
                    >> Looks like a simple overload.
                    >> The traces simply melted due to excessive current. You can't size
                    >> everything to withstand all the current the source can provide.
                    >> If it were configured properly, it should have shut down from excessive
                    >> motor current. In a single to three phase application the input current
                    >> increases much faster than the output current. Misapplication/operator
                    >> error. Unless you believe the traces weren't sized to carry rated input
                    >> current.
                    >>
                    >> Regards
                    >>
                    >> cww
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 07/04/2013 08:28 AM, jerdal@... wrote:
                    >>> Per the Huanyang, here is an amusing video of the failure and repair of
                    >>> one
                    >>> of their delightful VFDs.... Note the failure mode of simply burning up
                    >>> the
                    >>> traces on the PWB.... possibly from single phase input, possibly not.
                    >>>
                    >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNkf_0DCb4s
                    >>>
                    >>> The quality of construction is "interesting".....
                    >>>
                    >>> JT
                    >>>
                    >>> ----- Original Message -----
                    >>> From: "warrengrant" <warrengrant@...>
                    >>> To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                    >>> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:50 AM
                    >>> Subject: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>> In reading some info on the VFD for my Mill I had overlooked something.
                    >>>> Since there has been some discussion in the past about VFDs I thought
                    >>>> this
                    >>>> may be of interest to some. The Drive I have is Huanyang that I
                    >>>> purchased
                    >>>> on Ebay. This may be of some help to you. I don't know if other VFDs
                    >>>> have the same problem but I can see where the capacitors could go weak.
                    >>>> I
                    >>>> will be starting mine about every other month after reading this just to
                    >>>> be on the safe side as I have two of these. I also have an Eaton VFD
                    >>>> but
                    >>>> I don't have a manual so I will do the same for it. Hope this helps.
                    >>>> Warren
                    >>>>
                    >>>> "It is better not to store the inverter for long time. Long time storage
                    >>>> of the inverter will lead to the deterioration of electrolytic capacity.
                    >>>> If it needs to be stored for a long time make sure to power it up one
                    >>>> time
                    >>>> within a year and the power-up time should be at least above five hours.
                    >>>> When powered up the voltage must be increased slowly with a voltage
                    >>>> regulator to the rated voltage value."
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>>
                    >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    >>>> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    >>>> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                    >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    >>>>
                    >>>> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                    >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    >>>>
                    >>>> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                    >>>> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                    >>>> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                    >>>> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    >>> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    >>> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>
                    >>> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                    >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    >>>
                    >>> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                    >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    >>>
                    >>> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                    >>> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                    >>> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                    >>> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    >> You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    >> atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>
                    >> Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                    >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    >>
                    >> To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                    >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    >>
                    >> The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at
                    >> http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                    >> Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at
                    >> mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    >
                    > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    >
                    > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                    > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • jtiers
                    Any quality VFD will have a precharge circuit..... and that drastically reduces the problems with turn-on. Turn-on is otherwise a stressor for the diodes and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 4, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Any quality VFD will have a precharge circuit..... and that drastically
                      reduces the problems with turn-on. Turn-on is otherwise a stressor for the
                      diodes and for the bus capacitors. Most small VFDs have precharge, and I do
                      not know of even one large VFD that does not have a precharge circuit.
                      Small ones use a resistor and relay, large ones typically use an SCR
                      pre-charge. SCR types have no particular operation limit, since teh SCR is
                      rated for full input, but the relay and resistor type have limits based on
                      resistor heating for multiple turn-ons.

                      I definitely agree, it makes NO sense to remove power and apply it again
                      many times per hour. Far better to use the provided "enable" input. That
                      may entail some re-wiring, but it is worth the trouble.

                      Only if there is a stringent energy saving requirement might the power
                      on/off make *some* sense, and in such a case the VFD will need to be
                      designed to handle that. Even in that extreme case, I would expect that
                      some reasonable design work would let the unit satisfy the requirement while
                      maintaining a power connection.

                      In any event, the subject Huanyang unit didn't fail in a diode or capacitor.
                      And, it probably has a precharge, based on the "T-90 style" relay I saw
                      (there would need to be more than one, since that type isn't rated for high
                      voltage DC as found after the rectifier.)

                      The Huanyang are known for a fairly high incidence of rapid failures, often
                      with a "lightshow", although some work for long periods trouble free.
                      Other brands have failures also, but they tand to be varied, dead analog
                      inputs, bad outputs, display problems, etc, not concentrated in the power
                      circuits. Just a word to the wise.... which is hopefully sufficient.

                      I expect we have beaten this horse thoroughly, and should bury him.

                      JT

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Curt Wuollet" <wideopen1@...>
                      To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 3:12 PM
                      Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] FYI VFD


                      > On a related note: Most VFDs are rated for limited charging cycles
                      > per hour. Switching the input on and off frequently stresses the diodes
                      > and can cause similar damage. Using the drive start and stop is much
                      > less stressful on everything. The AB Powerflex 40 says 80 cycles per hour
                      > some other drives are as low as 20. I've seen this cause problems where
                      > a VFD was added to a motor that was cycled like a compressor or some
                      > pumps. Machine spindles are often used this way.
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > cww
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.