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Altas 10f Spindle Bearing fit

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  • jrw
    Hi, I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance .. I am working on an Atlas 10f made on Jan 31, 1951 I am replacing the spindle gear that is
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 21 12:38 PM
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      Hi,
      I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance .. I am working on an Atlas 10f made on Jan 31, 1951
      I am replacing the spindle gear that is driven by the back gear. The gear was shattered when I bought it. The spindle came out and everything seemed great.

      I was repositioning the left spindle bearing but the fit seems way to tight. The bearing was not the slip fit that I was expecting.
      I may be way over thinking this but how tight should the bearing fit on the spindle?

      Press fit, Hand press fit, slight tap with a hammer?

      My concern comes from later adjusting the preload on the entire spindle. Like I said I really know nothing. During preload, will not the bearing have to move on the spindle .
      Like I said just confused………….

      Thanks for all the help and info the list provides……

      Randy in Largo, Fl
    • wa5cab
      Randy, Join the club. I m surprised you didn t report having moderate difficulty with this during disassembly. We don t know why they are as tight as they
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 21 2:24 PM
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        Randy,

        Join the club.  I'm surprised you didn't report having moderate difficulty with this during disassembly.  We don't know why they are as tight as they are.  Even the Atlas Technical Bulletins, which were written probably in the 60's, don't mention it.  To get the bearing on the shaft more easily and at least quickly find the zero preload point you can warm the bearing to not over 200 F and work fast.  Someone replorted recently that they had a small toaster oven that they had calibrated the thermostat on with an independent thermometer and had it sitting near the lathe during spindle assembly.  They also wrapped the bearing in aluminum foil during heating.  You will need regular leather gloves to handle the hot bearing.

        When I do mine later this year, I plan to use this method and keep a slight torque on the threaded collar while the bearing cools.  And then tighten it the two teeth figure given in the bulletin, on the theory that the nut will move the hub even if it is tight.

        Robert D.

        In a message dated 04/21/2013 14:38:50 PM Central Daylight Time, suncat33770@... writes:
        Hi,
        I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance ..  I am working on an Atlas 10f made on  Jan 31, 1951
        I am replacing the spindle gear that is driven  by  the back gear.  The gear was shattered when I bought it. The spindle came out and everything seemed great.

        I was repositioning  the left spindle bearing but the fit seems way to tight.  The bearing was not the slip fit that I was expecting.
        I may be way over thinking this but how tight should the bearing  fit on the spindle?

        Press fit, Hand press  fit, slight tap with a hammer?

        My concern comes from later adjusting the preload on the entire spindle.  Like I said I really know nothing.  During preload, will not the bearing have to move on the spindle .
        Like I said just confused………….

        Thanks for all the help and info the list provides……

        Randy  in Largo, Fl


        Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
        wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
        MVPA 9480
      • jrw
        Well......I guess I was just lucky in getting the spindle removed.. I think I read that I was to tap the spindle back and forth after/while I was adjusting
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 21 6:47 PM
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          Well......I guess I was just lucky in getting the spindle removed.. I think I read that I was to tap the spindle back and forth after/while I was adjusting the thread collar E. It appears the collar applies force to the inner race. This would lead me to believe the spindle should be able to move. I think I have heard this as a "palm fit" Meaning the pressed on item would move with the force of the palm of the hand??

          I almost wish I had not worried about replacing the gear:)

          Randy


          --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@... wrote:
          >
          > Randy,
          >
          > Join the club. I'm surprised you didn't report having moderate difficulty
          > with this during disassembly. We don't know why they are as tight as they
          > are. Even the Atlas Technical Bulletins, which were written probably in the
          > 60's, don't mention it. To get the bearing on the shaft more easily and at
          > least quickly find the zero preload point you can warm the bearing to not
          > over 200 F and work fast. Someone replorted recently that they had a small
          > toaster oven that they had calibrated the thermostat on with an independent
          > thermometer and had it sitting near the lathe during spindle assembly. They
          > also wrapped the bearing in aluminum foil during heating. You will need
          > regular leather gloves to handle the hot bearing.
          >
          > When I do mine later this year, I plan to use this method and keep a slight
          > torque on the threaded collar while the bearing cools. And then tighten it
          > the two teeth figure given in the bulletin, on the theory that the nut will
          > move the hub even if it is tight.
          >
          > Robert D.
          >
          > In a message dated 04/21/2013 14:38:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
          > suncat33770@... writes:
          > > Hi,
          > > I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance .. I am working
          > > on an Atlas 10f made on Jan 31, 1951
          > > I am replacing the spindle gear that is driven by the back gear. The
          > > gear was shattered when I bought it. The spindle came out and everything
          > > seemed great.
          > >
          > > I was repositioning the left spindle bearing but the fit seems way to
          > > tight. The bearing was not the slip fit that I was expecting.
          > > I may be way over thinking this but how tight should the bearing fit on
          > > the spindle?
          > >
          > > Press fit, Hand press fit, slight tap with a hammer?
          > >
          > > My concern comes from later adjusting the preload on the entire spindle.
          > > Like I said I really know nothing. During preload, will not the bearing
          > > have to move on the spindle .
          > > Like I said just confused………….
          > >
          > > Thanks for all the help and info the list provides……
          > >
          > > Randy in Largo, Fl
          > >
          >
          > Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
          > wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
          > MVPA 9480
          >
        • wa5cab
          Randy. No. Even if the bearing were a light slip fit, the preload wouldn t probably be a palm fit. The factory specs give a rather specific preload
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 21 8:55 PM
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            Randy.

            No.  Even if the bearing were a light slip fit, the preload wouldn't probably be a "palm" fit.  The factory specs give a rather specific preload instruction.  Even though they ignore the difficulty of getting the bearing to zero preload.  Download the Technical Bulletin which is currently still in the _projects Group files section.

            Robert D.

            In a message dated 04/21/2013 20:47:20 PM Central Daylight Time, suncat33770@... writes:
            Well......I guess I was just lucky in getting the spindle removed..  I think I read that I was to tap the spindle back and forth after/while I was adjusting the thread collar E. It appears the collar applies force to the inner race.  This would lead me to believe the spindle should be able to move.  I think I have heard this as a "palm fit"  Meaning the pressed on item would move with the force of the palm of the hand??

            I almost wish I had not worried about replacing the gear:)

            Randy


            --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@... wrote:
            >
            >Randy,
            >
            >Join the club.  I'm surprised you didn't report having moderate difficulty
            >with this during disassembly.  We don't know why they are as tight as they
            >are.  Even the Atlas Technical Bulletins, which were written probably in the
            >60's, don't mention it.  To get the bearing on the shaft more easily and at
            >least quickly find the zero preload point you can warm the bearing to not
            >over 200 F and work fast.  Someone replorted recently that they had a small
            >toaster oven that they had calibrated the thermostat on with an independent
            >thermometer and had it sitting near the lathe during spindle assembly.  They
            >also wrapped the bearing in aluminum foil during heating.  You will need
            >regular leather gloves to handle the hot bearing.
            >
            >When I do mine later this year, I plan to use this method and keep a slight
            >torque on the threaded collar while the bearing cools.  And then tighten it
            >the two teeth figure given in the bulletin, on the theory that the nut will
            >move the hub even if it is tight.
            >
            >Robert D.
            >
            >In a message dated 04/21/2013 14:38:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
            >suncat33770@... writes:
            >>Hi,
            >>I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance ..  I am working
            >>on an Atlas 10f made on  Jan 31, 1951
            >>I am replacing the spindle gear that is driven  by  the back gear.  The
            >>gear was shattered when I bought it. The spindle came out and everything
            >>seemed great.
            >>
            >>I was repositioning  the left spindle bearing but the fit seems way to
            >>tight.  The bearing was not the slip fit that I was expecting.
            >>I may be way over thinking this but how tight should the bearing  fit on
            >>the spindle?
            >>
            >>Press fit, Hand press  fit, slight tap with a hammer?
            >>
            >>My concern comes from later adjusting the preload on the entire spindle. 
            >>Like I said I really know nothing.  During preload, will not the bearing
            >>have to move on the spindle .
            >>Like I said just confused………….
            >>
            >>Thanks for all the help and info the list provides……
            >>
            >>Randy  in Largo, Fl
            >>
            >
            >Robert &Susan Downs - Houston
            >wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
            >MVPA 9480


            Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
            wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
            MVPA 9480
          • jrw
            Robert, First thanks for all the effort!! I think my bearing are called tapered, very similar to trailer wheel bearings. I think the thread collar, used to
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 21 9:46 PM
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              Robert,
              First thanks for all the effort!!

              I think my bearing are called tapered, very similar to trailer wheel bearings. I think the thread collar, used to adjust the preset, moves a gear and a spacer that only applies pressure to the center race on the gear. I think the inner race has to move on the spindle in order to load and unload the preset. Just like you would adjust a trailer bearing after repacking.

              Maybe I am all wet:) But I really think the bearing has to move on the shaft. That way you can adjust the distance between the two bearing, left and right, to take up any movement??

              Make any sense???

              I may just heat it up, install it and see what happens:)

              Thanks again for all the help.............

              sleepy randy


              --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@... wrote:
              >
              > Randy.
              >
              > No. Even if the bearing were a light slip fit, the preload wouldn't
              > probably be a "palm" fit. The factory specs give a rather specific preload
              > instruction. Even though they ignore the difficulty of getting the bearing to
              > zero preload. Download the Technical Bulletin which is currently still in the
              > _projects Group files section.
              >
              > Robert D.
              >
              > In a message dated 04/21/2013 20:47:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > suncat33770@... writes:
              > > Well......I guess I was just lucky in getting the spindle removed.. I
              > > think I read that I was to tap the spindle back and forth after/while I was
              > > adjusting the thread collar E. It appears the collar applies force to the
              > > inner race. This would lead me to believe the spindle should be able to
              > > move. I think I have heard this as a "palm fit" Meaning the pressed on item
              > > would move with the force of the palm of the hand??
              > >
              > > I almost wish I had not worried about replacing the gear:)
              > >
              > > Randy
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > >Randy,
              > > >
              > > >Join the club. I'm surprised you didn't report having moderate
              > > difficulty
              > > >with this during disassembly. We don't know why they are as tight as
              > > they
              > > >are. Even the Atlas Technical Bulletins, which were written probably in
              > > the
              > > >60's, don't mention it. To get the bearing on the shaft more easily and
              > > at
              > > >least quickly find the zero preload point you can warm the bearing to not
              > >
              > > >over 200 F and work fast. Someone replorted recently that they had a
              > > small
              > > >toaster oven that they had calibrated the thermostat on with an
              > > independent
              > > >thermometer and had it sitting near the lathe during spindle assembly.
              > > They
              > > >also wrapped the bearing in aluminum foil during heating. You will need
              > > >regular leather gloves to handle the hot bearing.
              > > >
              > > >When I do mine later this year, I plan to use this method and keep a
              > > slight
              > > >torque on the threaded collar while the bearing cools. And then tighten
              > > it
              > > >the two teeth figure given in the bulletin, on the theory that the nut
              > > will
              > > >move the hub even if it is tight.
              > > >
              > > >Robert D.
              > > >
              > > >In a message dated 04/21/2013 14:38:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > > >suncat33770@ writes:
              > > >>Hi,
              > > >>I am really new to lathes so please forgive my ignorance .. I am
              > > working
              > > >>on an Atlas 10f made on Jan 31, 1951
              > > >>I am replacing the spindle gear that is driven by the back gear. The
              > > >>gear was shattered when I bought it. The spindle came out and everything
              > >
              > > >>seemed great.
              > > >>
              > > >>I was repositioning the left spindle bearing but the fit seems way to
              > > >>tight. The bearing was not the slip fit that I was expecting.
              > > >>I may be way over thinking this but how tight should the bearing fit on
              > >
              > > >>the spindle?
              > > >>
              > > >>Press fit, Hand press fit, slight tap with a hammer?
              > > >>
              > > >>My concern comes from later adjusting the preload on the entire spindle.
              > >
              > > >>Like I said I really know nothing. During preload, will not the bearing
              > >
              > > >>have to move on the spindle .
              > > >>Like I said just confused………….
              > > >>
              > > >>Thanks for all the help and info the list provides……
              > > >>
              > > >>Randy in Largo, Fl
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > >Robert &Susan Downs - Houston
              > > >wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
              > > >MVPA 9480
              > >
              >
              > Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
              > wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
              > MVPA 9480
              >
            • wa5cab
              Randy, Yes, basically all that you wrote is correct. Except that the bearings aren t very similar to trailer wheel bearings. They are the same basic type as
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 21 10:16 PM
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                Randy,

                Yes, basically all that you wrote is correct.  Except that the bearings aren't very similar to trailer wheel bearings.  They are the same basic type as trailer wheel bearings, most automobile front wheel bearings, decent vehicle rear wheel bearings, etc.  The whole family of bearings are called, as shown in any Atlas manual, tapered roller bearings.  And just as with wheel bearings, you have to pre-load them to get zero end float.

                The bearing does have to move on the shaft to preload it.  After that. it should not move on the shaft.  So being locked in place by a light press fit doesn't hurt anything once you get it to the correct position.

                Read the preload instruction in the tech bulletin.  Heat and install the bearing and run the collar up against the bearing finger snug and let it cool.  Check and confirm that there is no end float.  If there is, tighten the collar about half a tooth at a time until you get zero end float.  Then tighten the collar two teeth.  Confirm that the spindle turns freely.  Tighten the set screw against the brass plug under it.  Make lots of parts.

                In a message dated 04/21/2013 23:46:29 PM Central Daylight Time, suncat33770@... writes:
                Robert,
                First thanks for all the effort!!

                I think my bearing are called tapered, very similar to trailer wheel bearings.  I think the thread collar, used to adjust the preset, moves a gear and a  spacer that only applies pressure to the center race on the gear.  I think the inner race has to move on the spindle in order to load and unload the preset.  Just like you would adjust a trailer bearing after repacking. 

                Maybe I am all wet:)  But I really think the bearing has to move on the shaft. That way you can adjust the distance between the two bearing, left and right, to take up any movement??

                Make any sense???

                I may just heat it up, install it and see what happens:)

                Thanks again for all the help.............

                sleepy randy


                Robert Downs - Houston
                wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
                MVPA 9480
              • jrw
                Robert, First thanks for the tip on heating the bearing. It slipped on almost 2/3 of the way before it cooled. Then use a block to tap it the reat of the
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 24 8:31 AM
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                  Robert,
                  First thanks for the tip on heating the bearing. It slipped on almost 2/3 of the way before it cooled. Then use a block to tap it the reat of the way. I tighened the nust til I have all the the play out. I back off the nut a little and taped the sindle with a brass hammer til I felt a little play. Then I did the 2 tooth adj method you described. I did polish the spindle a little before all this.

                  the only thing I would have done differently is to make a delrin sleve to tap the bearing into place before I took the lathe apart:)

                  Almost ready to try threading!!!

                  Again thanks for the help and patience!!!!

                  Randy

                  --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Randy,
                  >
                  > Yes, basically all that you wrote is correct. Except that the bearings
                  > aren't very similar to trailer wheel bearings. They are the same basic type as
                  > trailer wheel bearings, most automobile front wheel bearings, decent
                  > vehicle rear wheel bearings, etc. The whole family of bearings are called, as
                  > shown in any Atlas manual, tapered roller bearings. And just as with wheel
                  > bearings, you have to pre-load them to get zero end float.
                  >
                  > The bearing does have to move on the shaft to preload it. After that. it
                  > should not move on the shaft. So being locked in place by a light press fit
                  > doesn't hurt anything once you get it to the correct position.
                  >
                  > Read the preload instruction in the tech bulletin. Heat and install the
                  > bearing and run the collar up against the bearing finger snug and let it cool.
                  > Check and confirm that there is no end float. If there is, tighten the
                  > collar about half a tooth at a time until you get zero end float. Then
                  > tighten the collar two teeth. Confirm that the spindle turns freely. Tighten the
                  > set screw against the brass plug under it. Make lots of parts.
                  >
                  > In a message dated 04/21/2013 23:46:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  > suncat33770@... writes:
                  > > Robert,
                  > > First thanks for all the effort!!
                  > >
                  > > I think my bearing are called tapered, very similar to trailer wheel
                  > > bearings. I think the thread collar, used to adjust the preset, moves a gear
                  > > and a spacer that only applies pressure to the center race on the gear. I
                  > > think the inner race has to move on the spindle in order to load and unload
                  > > the preset. Just like you would adjust a trailer bearing after repacking.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Maybe I am all wet:) But I really think the bearing has to move on the
                  > > shaft. That way you can adjust the distance between the two bearing, left and
                  > > right, to take up any movement??
                  > >
                  > > Make any sense???
                  > >
                  > > I may just heat it up, install it and see what happens:)
                  > >
                  > > Thanks again for all the help.............
                  > >
                  > > sleepy randy
                  > >
                  >
                  > Robert Downs - Houston
                  > wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
                  > MVPA 9480
                  >
                • c_h_a_r_t_n_y
                  Old School way of bearing heat. Have 100W light bulb, base down. Put bearing on the bulb and light for 15 minutes. Handle with a glove. Heats the inner race
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 24 1:07 PM
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                    Old School way of bearing heat.
                    Have 100W light bulb, base down. Put bearing on the bulb and light for 15 minutes. Handle with a glove. Heats the inner race just about right for bearings~1" id and larger.

                    Used often for install of "press on" bearings on rear axle of old style cars. Not pressed on but heated and rammed on with a section of pipe, washer to impart inpact to inner race, and appropriate size of iron pipe. End of axle on concrete block or anvil.

                    Been there, done that!

                    -chart-
                    -----------------------------

                    --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "jrw" <suncat33770@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Robert,
                    > First thanks for the tip on heating the bearing. It slipped on almost 2/3 of the way before it cooled. Then use a block to tap it the reat of the way. I tighened the nust til I have all the the play out. I back off the nut a little and taped the sindle with a brass hammer til I felt a little play. Then I did the 2 tooth adj method you described. I did polish the spindle a little before all this.
                    >
                    > the only thing I would have done differently is to make a delrin sleve to tap the bearing into place before I took the lathe apart:)
                    >
                    > Almost ready to try threading!!!
                    >
                    > Again thanks for the help and patience!!!!
                    >
                    > Randy
                    >
                    > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, wa5cab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Randy,
                    > >
                    > > Yes, basically all that you wrote is correct. Except that the bearings
                    > > aren't very similar to trailer wheel bearings. They are the same basic type as
                    > > trailer wheel bearings, most automobile front wheel bearings, decent
                    > > vehicle rear wheel bearings, etc. The whole family of bearings are called, as
                    > > shown in any Atlas manual, tapered roller bearings. And just as with wheel
                    > > bearings, you have to pre-load them to get zero end float.
                    > >
                    > > The bearing does have to move on the shaft to preload it. After that. it
                    > > should not move on the shaft. So being locked in place by a light press fit
                    > > doesn't hurt anything once you get it to the correct position.
                    > >
                    > > Read the preload instruction in the tech bulletin. Heat and install the
                    > > bearing and run the collar up against the bearing finger snug and let it cool.
                    > > Check and confirm that there is no end float. If there is, tighten the
                    > > collar about half a tooth at a time until you get zero end float. Then
                    > > tighten the collar two teeth. Confirm that the spindle turns freely. Tighten the
                    > > set screw against the brass plug under it. Make lots of parts.
                    > >
                    > > In a message dated 04/21/2013 23:46:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    > > suncat33770@ writes:
                    > > > Robert,
                    > > > First thanks for all the effort!!
                    > > >
                    > > > I think my bearing are called tapered, very similar to trailer wheel
                    > > > bearings. I think the thread collar, used to adjust the preset, moves a gear
                    > > > and a spacer that only applies pressure to the center race on the gear. I
                    > > > think the inner race has to move on the spindle in order to load and unload
                    > > > the preset. Just like you would adjust a trailer bearing after repacking.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Maybe I am all wet:) But I really think the bearing has to move on the
                    > > > shaft. That way you can adjust the distance between the two bearing, left and
                    > > > right, to take up any movement??
                    > > >
                    > > > Make any sense???
                    > > >
                    > > > I may just heat it up, install it and see what happens:)
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks again for all the help.............
                    > > >
                    > > > sleepy randy
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > Robert Downs - Houston
                    > > wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
                    > > MVPA 9480
                    > >
                    >
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