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Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup

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  • jonathan h bateman
    Do you have a good feel for finishes, etc. ? If so,get a fresh 3/8 chain saw file, reac hinto the spindle taper, find a nick with the end of the file
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 3, 2013
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      Do you have a good "feel" for finishes, etc. ? If so,get a fresh 3/8" chain saw file, reac hinto the spindle taper, find a nick with the end of the file (actually a high spot}, turn the
      spindle so the 'offense is at the bottom. Locate the spot again with the body  of the file, and delicately "balance" it only   on the high spot   ;lightly file very gently until the high spot is relieved. Now feel around inside as and correct as necessary.. Finally, glue some #400 paper to your center twist it gently in the spindle , If you know the center is perfect ,try a little bluing.  This is advanced machine work; a man can do what a machine can't. Good luck !  BLJHB
      On Feb 3, 2013, at 11:15 PM, Jean-Francois wrote:

       

      Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry.
      My spindle has an MT3 taper.
      The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout.
      I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem.

      Here is the question: How do I fix it?
      My first thought is to run a MT3 reamer (finishing).
      But is it a recommended way, is it the only way etc?


    • Charles
      The easiest to make shop reamer is a D bit, and properly used they will not cut on the good area just the raised area. Charles
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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        The easiest to make shop reamer is a D bit, and properly used they will not cut on the good area just the raised area.


        Charles




        On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:21, <jerdal@...> wrote:

        > One problem with most sorts of "symmetrical cutters" like reamers is that
        > they push on both the bump and the good side... and when they push, they
        > cut. So you inevitably cut a little on the side you do NOT want to remove
        > material from, as well as the side where the problem is.
        >
        > You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to
        > do that job safely. But Carvel's suggestion solves the problem.
        >
        > JT
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Carvel Webb" <carvelw@...>
        > To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 11:20 PM
        > Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup
        >
        >
        >> JF,
        >>
        >> A hand held MT3 finishing reamer would work , but might just be worth your
        >> while to move the carriage out of the way , and get your head down with a
        >> strong torch and see what the nicks look like - if minor they might
        >> respond
        >> to a penknife or other small scraper ,
        >>
        >> Regards,
        >>
        >> Carvel
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
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      • jonathan h bateman
        -*Below, an important reason not to use a reamer....JHB
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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          -*Below, an important reason not to use a reamer....JHB
          On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Guenther Paul wrote:

           

          JT
          What about a hand adjustable reamer the flutes are on a taper , the end of the flute is the size one needs.They are excellent on threw holes don't work on dead end holes.On dead end holes there are 1000's of ways to create a accurate bore or holes
           
          GP



          From: "jerdal@..." <jerdal@...>
          To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, February 4, 2013 8:21:41 AM
          Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup

           

          One problem with most sorts of "symmetrical cutters" like reamers is that
          they push on both the bump and the good side... and when they push, they
          cut. So you inevitably cut a little on the side you do NOT want to remove
          material from, as well as the side where the problem is.

          You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to
          do that job safely. But Carvel's suggestion solves the problem.

          JT

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Carvel Webb" carvelw@...>
          To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 11:20 PM
          Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup

          > JF,
          >
          > A hand held MT3 finishing reamer would work , but might just be worth your
          > while to move the carriage out of the way , and get your head down with a
          > strong torch and see what the nicks look like - if minor they might
          > respond
          > to a penknife or other small scraper ,
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Carvel



        • Jon Elson
          ... With a good light, examine for the burrs, you can apply magic marker or blue dye to the center to mark the burrs. Then, you can use an Xacto knife or a
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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            On 02/03/2013 10:15 PM, Jean-Francois wrote:
            > Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry.
            > My spindle has an MT3 taper.
            > The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout.
            > I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem.
            >
            >
            With a good light, examine for the burrs, you can apply magic marker or blue
            dye to the center to mark the burrs. Then, you can use an Xacto knife
            or a round India stone to remove the burr.

            Also, you can recut the center, which may not be as true as you might
            want.

            Jon
          • jonathan h bateman
            A scraper could be made (as in times of yore) from a triangle file. Grind a perfectly symmetrical hollow on three sides do not more than warm the steel ;
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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              A scraper could be made (as in times of yore) from a triangle file. Grind a perfectly symmetrical hollow on three sides do not more than warm the steel ; finish on a fine oilstone
                This is more stuff they should teach before they allow you near a powered machine. BLJHB
              On Feb 4, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Charles wrote:

               

              The easiest to make shop reamer is a D bit, and properly used they will not cut on the good area just the raised area.

              Charles

              On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:21, jerdal@...> wrote:

              > One problem with most sorts of "symmetrical cutters" like reamers is that
              > they push on both the bump and the good side... and when they push, they
              > cut. So you inevitably cut a little on the side you do NOT want to remove
              > material from, as well as the side where the problem is.
              >
              > You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to
              > do that job safely. But Carvel's suggestion solves the problem.
              >
              > JT
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Carvel Webb" carvelw@...>
              > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 11:20 PM
              > Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup
              >
              >
              >> JF,
              >>
              >> A hand held MT3 finishing reamer would work , but might just be worth your
              >> while to move the carriage out of the way , and get your head down with a
              >> strong torch and see what the nicks look like - if minor they might
              >> respond
              >> to a penknife or other small scraper ,
              >>
              >> Regards,
              >>
              >> Carvel
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
              > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
              > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
              >
              > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
              >
              > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
              > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


            • James Irwin
              A half round fine finish file that¹s half worn out and whose radius is at or slightly under that of the bore will do much finer work here. Oil it with some
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup A half round fine finish file that’s half worn out and whose radius is at or slightly under that of the bore will do much finer work here. Oil it with some medium weight oil, like way oil.

                A new chainsaw file will aggressively bite into the bore. Not on my lathe!

                Jim Irwin

              • jworman
                ... I can t say about the recommended way, nor the only way, but it s the way I did it and it worked great. I also bought a plastic reamer called a Taper
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                  --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Jean-Francois" wrote:
                  >
                  > Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry.
                  > My spindle has an MT3 taper.
                  > The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout.
                  > I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem.
                  >
                  > Here is the question: How do I fix it?
                  > My first thought is to run a MT3 reamer (finishing).
                  > But is it a recommended way, is it the only way etc?
                  >

                  I can't say about the recommended way, nor the only way, but it's the way I did it and it worked great.

                  I also bought a plastic reamer called a "Taper Mate" and I run it through the taper before inserting a too.
                • cliff
                  ... You really need a one flute reamer (they don t exist as far as I know) to do that job safely. JT JT, while it does nothing to further the spindle taper
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                    --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, JT wrote:

                    "You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to do that job safely.
                    JT"

                    JT, while it does nothing to further the spindle taper problem, I thought I'd mention that a gun drill would qualify as both a one flute drill and a one flute reamer (both operations occurring simultaneously).

                    Just a fun little thing about gun drills being one flute cutters.
                  • jonathan h bateman
                    A tip of the hat and a subtle disagreement - Gently used, the sharp file will pick up the high spot with less surrounding damage- not worth much argument-
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                      A tip of the hat and a subtle disagreement - Gently used, the sharp file will pick up the high spot with less surrounding damage- not worth much argument- BLJHB
                      On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:54 PM, James Irwin wrote:

                       
                      A half round fine finish file that’s half worn out and whose radius is at or slightly under that of the bore will do much finer work here. Oil it with some medium weight oil, like way oil.

                      A new chainsaw file will aggressively bite into the bore. Not on my lathe!

                      Jim Irwin


                    • JOHN PERRY
                      Has anyone approached this type problem with a grinder. Say mark the high spots with tool die and a tapered tool to accent the burs. Then use a fine stone in
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                          Has anyone approached this type problem with a grinder.  Say mark the high spots with tool die and a tapered tool to accent the burs. Then use a fine stone in a Dremel to remove the burrs? Be careful to remove only the high spot. 



                        From: "jmartin957@..." <jmartin957@...>
                        To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                        Cc: JMartin957@...
                        Sent: Mon, February 4, 2013 11:14:54 AM
                        Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup

                         

                        In a message dated 2/3/13 11:15:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfcayron@... writes:


                        Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry.
                        My spindle has an MT3 taper.
                        The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout.
                        I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem.

                        Here is the question: How do I fix it?
                        My first thought is to run a MT3 reamer (finishing).
                        But is it a recommended way, is it the only way etc?


                        The nicks are not a problem - it's the raised burr alongside the nick.  The metal displaced by the nick had to go someplace.

                        The culprit is just as often a chip which got wedged against the bore.  They can look like a piece of the spindle itself, and can be hard to remove.

                        My first choice is to try to smooth things out with a scraper - say, a three-cornered machinist's scraper. 

                        The finishing reamer is good for a final cleanup, but save it for that.  It doesn't take too many turns to open up the taper so that tooling with a shoulder will bottom out (should say shoulder out).

                        Let the reamer align itself in the bore - don't try to hold it on the tailstock center.  You could hold it on the center if the tailstock was perfectly aligned, but it's likely not.  Pretty tough to align it without a true running headstock center, which you don't have.  Go gently, the reamer will find its own way.  It's not a bad idea to turn the spindle rather than the reamer - just pull the belt over by hand a couple of turns.

                        Clean up your center after you do the taper.  The old pros would keep their centers hidden away, and would put index marks on the spindle and center if they were fussy.

                        John Martin

                      • Richard Marchi
                        I ve used Carvel s technique. It helps if you rub a thin coat of Prussian blue on the dead center s taper and insert it into the spindle taper and rotate it a
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                          I've used Carvel's technique. It helps if you rub a thin coat of Prussian blue on the dead center's taper and insert it into the spindle taper and rotate it a few degrees. The nicks on the spindle should rub off the blueing and show you where they are. If you get lucky, you'll be able to see the blue transferred from the center to the spindle with a strong light. Then use a scraper or a small fine round India slip stone to touch them up. When they're all gone, the blueing on the dead center will transfer evenly to the spindle taper.

                          Don't overlook the possibility that the ding is on the dead center, either.

                          Good luck.


                          Richard Marchi
                          Gangplank Marina Slip H-22
                          Washington, DC
                        • jonathan h bateman
                          Please, NO
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                            Please, NO<NONONO.Don't even think..........BLJHB
                            On Feb 4, 2013, at 11:55 AM, James Irwin wrote:

                             
                            Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the tapered shaft of the tool usually hardened? Isn’t the spindle usually soft? So if one would lightly oil with way oil and drive in the tool, the tool would flatten toe tops of these raised edges, at least somewhat. THEN one would have less to remove with a scraper or stone or whatever.

                            Of course, it’s way better to avoid raising these surface defects using care to wipe clean tools and bore before seating. But, it’s not a matter of if a ding occur, but when they occur, AND having a way to repair the damage efficiently and effectively w/o making things worse.

                            Jim Irwin



                          • Jean-Francois
                            The dead center is brand new.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                              The dead center is brand new.


                              >
                              > Don't overlook the possibility that the ding is on the dead center, either.
                              >
                              >
                            • Jean-Francois
                              Thanks for the abundant advice. A couple of notes: 1) yes, you are preaching to the choir, I do take care not to get swarf between spindle and center. This is
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                                Thanks for the abundant advice.

                                A couple of notes:
                                1) yes, you are preaching to the choir, I do take care not to get swarf between spindle and center. This is a barn find, it was abused before my time.
                                2) the dead center is brand new and of decent quality. By no means several thou off.
                                3) yes, the nicks do not matter, but there are corresponding burrs.

                                Based on the advice, I will attempt
                                1) to scrape after locating the high spots with blue
                                2) if it does not work use a reamer, by hand

                                Thanks again, I will post the outcome.
                              • Carl Hollopeter
                                Jean, Take a look at this site: http://spindlemate.com/?page_id=188 Carl H From: Jean-Francois Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 10:15 PM To:
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                                  Jean,
                                     Take a look at this site:
                                   
                                  Carl H
                                   
                                  Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 10:15 PM
                                  Subject: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup
                                   
                                   

                                  Probably going to get a "duh" answer, but I'd better be safe than sorry.
                                  My spindle has an MT3 taper.
                                  The spindle itself runs VERY true, but when I put in my MT3 dead center, I see anywhere between .004 and .010 runout.
                                  I can feel small nicks inside the taper, enough to explain the problem.

                                  Here is the question: How do I fix it?
                                  My first thought is to run a MT3 reamer (finishing).
                                  But is it a recommended way, is it the only way etc?

                                • Doc
                                  a bearing scraper is the preferred tool for cleaning up raised places.....very common in solid bearing era., before anti friction bearings ,( ending
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                                    a bearing  scraper is the preferred tool  for  cleaning  up raised places.....very  common in solid bearing  era., before anti  friction   bearings ,( ending around  middle 1920's)...you can make  a  useful one from the  end of a  1/2 round file.....grind the  teeth  off , w/ a curve  on the  end  to  keep  from digging  in ,& grind one edge  w/ clearance  &  rake ...use a  paring  motion .....
                                     .FWIW  china .flat  scrapers  &  curved  bearing  scrapers   are available  for a few  dollars   each...cant  remember  which supplier  , but  i  have  seen  them advertised in  last  couple  years...
                                       as  previously  posted ,  reamers  are a poor  choice  since  they  WILL remove stock  from the opposing surface ..& it  is  EASY  to  ream enuf  so that  the the  taper  is  too deep ...BEEN there cleaning up a ringed MT3- MT2  adapter ..
                                     best  wishes
                                    doc
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Charles <xlch58@...>
                                    To: atlas_craftsman <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Mon, Feb 4, 2013 10:57 am
                                    Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup

                                     
                                    The easiest to make shop reamer is a D bit, and properly used they will not cut on the good area just the raised area.

                                    Charles

                                    On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:21, jerdal@...> wrote:

                                    > One problem with most sorts of "symmetrical cutters" like reamers is that
                                    > they push on both the bump and the good side... and when they push, they
                                    > cut. So you inevitably cut a little on the side you do NOT want to remove
                                    > material from, as well as the side where the problem is.
                                    >
                                    > You really need a "one flute" reamer (they don't exist as far as I know) to
                                    > do that job safely. But Carvel's suggestion solves the problem.
                                    >
                                    > JT
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Carvel Webb" carvelw@...>
                                    > To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 11:20 PM
                                    > Subject: RE: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> JF,
                                    >>
                                    >> A hand held MT3 finishing reamer would work , but might just be worth your
                                    >> while to move the carriage out of the way , and get your head down with a
                                    >> strong torch and see what the nicks look like - if minor they might
                                    >> respond
                                    >> to a penknife or other small scraper ,
                                    >>
                                    >> Regards,
                                    >>
                                    >> Carvel
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                                    > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                                    > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                                    >
                                    > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                                    >
                                    > The Atlas-Craftsman Wiki is at http://pico-systems.com/cgi-bin/Atlas-wiki/Atlas.cgi
                                    > Please submit things you think will be useful to Jon Elson at mailto://elson@...! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • jtiers
                                    Go a step farther and make your own...... it s a variety of the burr file that I like to advocate.... you BLUNT a piece of half-round file with a
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 4, 2013
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                                      Go a step farther and make your own...... it's a variety of the "burr file"
                                      that I like to advocate.... you BLUNT a piece of half-round file with a
                                      sharpening stone, carefully to keep a good round "surface".

                                      Now, just like the flat version, it will ONLY cut what sticks up.

                                      No sharp new files allowed in tapers around here either. Nor honing stones,
                                      they are not very selective on what they cut, and they leave grit.

                                      Yes, the gun drill is a one-flute *drill*, a one-flute *reamer* would be a
                                      bit like a one-flute countersink.... with the edge on the side and not the
                                      front.. While not as nice/safe as the half round burr file, it at least
                                      would not cut on the other side of the taper.

                                      JT


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: James Irwin
                                      To: Atlas
                                      Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 12:54 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] MT3 Cleanup




                                      A half round fine finish file that's half worn out and whose radius is at
                                      or slightly under that of the bore will do much finer work here. Oil it with
                                      some medium weight oil, like way oil.

                                      A new chainsaw file will aggressively bite into the bore. Not on my lathe!

                                      Jim Irwin
                                    • captonzap
                                      Did I miss anyone advising to measure the inside of the taper about an eighth of an inch back from the outside edge with a dial indicator? If someone has
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 5, 2013
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                                        Did I miss anyone advising to measure the inside of the taper about an eighth of an inch back from the outside edge with a dial indicator?
                                        If someone has dinged the edge of the shaft hard enough to flatten one spot, you could end up with the same situation.
                                        CZ
                                      • Jean-Francois
                                        Thank you all for the good advice received. I started by blueing the taper to locate the highs. I scraped the spots that were all in the first 3/4 or so. Also
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 10, 2013
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                                          Thank you all for the good advice received.

                                          I started by blueing the taper to locate the highs.
                                          I scraped the spots that were all in the first 3/4" or so.
                                          Also the first 1/8" of the taper was really messed up, so I ran a boring bar and sacrificed that part of it by boring it up one thou. Note, that reduces the fitted surface, but does not change the seating depth.

                                          Outcome: less than half a graduation on the TDI, I believe about 2 10-thousands; I call it perfect.

                                          One more time, thank you all for your help.
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