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Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re:Atlas TH42 Lathe Rebuild Main spindle help needed

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  • David LeVine
    ... Just for reference, a 50/50 mix of acetone + ATF has been recommended as has oil of wintergreen, The acetone/ATF has the virtues of being cheap and easy
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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      catboat15@... wrote:
      > The advice for the stuck chuck was good. Penetrating oils ...

      Just for reference, a 50/50 mix of acetone + ATF has been recommended as
      has oil of wintergreen, The acetone/ATF has the virtues of being cheap
      and easy to get, if the penetrating oil you tried doesn't work, maybe
      one of these will.

      --
      David G. LeVine
      Nashua, NH 03060
    • jerdal@sbcglobal.net
      Penetrating oils often do work. But there is not one single penetrating oil ever made that dissolves rust . Dissolving rust makes it sound as if the oil
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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        Penetrating oils often do work.

        But there is not one single penetrating oil ever made that "dissolves rust".

        "Dissolving rust" makes it sound as if the oil will run out again carrying
        the rust away as some sort of liquid, leaving the parts loose and rattly so
        you can unscrew them by hand. Not even close.

        All that the oil does is to lubricate the rust flakes so that they slide
        over each other and no longer lock up to freeze the part in position. The
        "penetrating" part means that they are thin enough, or have a thin enough
        "carrier solvent", that they wick into tight spots and do their lubrication
        job.

        Time and light heating can help to get the penetrating oil to wick into the
        tight spots. Some impact, by whacking a wrench, can help break loose larger
        rust particles or break them into smaller pieces so that the oil can lube
        them effectively. It won't actually "dissolve" a large particle, nor even
        penetrate it if it is solid, so the oil requires some mechanical help to
        work..

        Without the oil, you can still break up the particles, but after a tiny
        amount of turnig, they catch on each other and lock up again. Oil reduces
        that tendedcy, but normal oils won't ever wick into the rusty areas. Hence
        the solvent portion, which is thin and has a low surface tension, so it
        "wets" the rust, and carries the heavier oil along as it wicks in.

        Using a material when you know how it actually works is generally more
        effective than trying to use it according to a folk legend

        JT.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <catboat15@...>
        To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 11:18 PM
        Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re:Atlas TH42 Lathe Rebuild Main spindle help
        needed


        > The advice for the stuck chuck was good. Penetrating oils work by seeping
        > in between mating parts dissolving rust as they seep through.
      • Duke6901
        Hi thought I could help as I just went through this with my craftsman. First, engadge the back gears to hold spindle from turning. Use good penetrating oil
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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          Hi
          thought I could help as I just went through this with my craftsman.
          First, engadge the back gears to hold spindle from turning. Use good penetrating oil
          LIBERALY!!!! Tap lightly with non marring hammer and let sit for hour or so.
          Use burnzomatic or some like propane torch and gently heat back side of chuck
          note at no point should the chuck glow red only looking for a good "smoky" heat.
          When hot spray p-oil from front side on to frozen joint. How this works? The heat acts
          as a carrier for the oil much like when soldering a plumers joint heat the cap and solder wicks to the heat. I recomend pb blaster or sea foam deep creep for p-oil as
          they have a relative high flash point. U will prob get flame while heating chuck from back side do to grime and old oil burn off, this only helps. Use something like wood in. Chuck to break loose (counter clockwise) normal thread. Had mine off in 1.5 hrs
          after 20+ years of sitting!
          Good luck
          Chris-

          --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "trenton.sain" <trenton.sain@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi I am new to the group and somewhat new to the world of machining. I was given an Atlas TH42 from about 49 I think. It had been sitting in the dirt in a barn for about 20 years. I have taken it completely apart..until I got to the main spindle. I can't seem to get the chuck to come off of the spindle. I don't want to push on it too hard but It needs to come off eventually.
          >
          > Questions?
          > How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise.
          >
          > The lathe has the bearings in the head stock not the babbits. After I get the chuck off how do I ge the rest of it apart? I cant pull the back gear off. I haven't put a puller on it as the rest of the machine came apart pretty easily.
          >
          > The head box needs to come apart as everything was completely locked up with dirt dobbers, sand and whatever else you can think of. The carriage wouldn't move at all when I started. I am not looking to do really detailed work with this, but would like a functional lathe.
          >
          > The bed was rusted pretty bad and pitted where the parts were not sitting. I tried to remove the rust gently but nothing seem to work. I ended up using a fine wire brush cup to remove the rust. I don't think I took off anything but rust, I figure I would rather have a lathe that was a little inaccurate and moved than one that was more accurate but the carriage wouldn't move. I have gone too long with this for the initial post. Lets start with how to removing the chuck and spindle.
          >
          > One more thing I need a 9-48B gear for the reversing gearbox. Where do I get one?
          >
        • Hugh Prescott
          Do not engage the back shaft or the lock pin Strap wrench on the gear and a short chunk of hex stock chucked up. Start soft with an air impact wrench and some
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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            Do not engage the back shaft or the lock pin

            Strap wrench on the gear and a short chunk of hex stock chucked up.

            Start soft with an air impact wrench and some penetrating oil and some heat.

            Hugh


            Duke6901 wrote:
            > Hi
            > thought I could help as I just went through this with my craftsman.
            > First, engadge the back gears to hold spindle from turning. Use good penetrating oil
            > LIBERALY!!!! Tap lightly with non marring hammer and let sit for hour or so.
            > Use burnzomatic or some like propane torch and gently heat back side of chuck
            > note at no point should the chuck glow red only looking for a good "smoky" heat.
            > When hot spray p-oil from front side on to frozen joint. How this works? The heat acts
            > as a carrier for the oil much like when soldering a plumers joint heat the cap and solder wicks to the heat. I recomend pb blaster or sea foam deep creep for p-oil as
            > they have a relative high flash point. U will prob get flame while heating chuck from back side do to grime and old oil burn off, this only helps. Use something like wood in. Chuck to break loose (counter clockwise) normal thread. Had mine off in 1.5 hrs
            > after 20+ years of sitting!
            > Good luck
            > Chris-
            >
            > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "trenton.sain" <trenton.sain@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Hi I am new to the group and somewhat new to the world of machining. I was given an Atlas TH42 from about 49 I think. It had been sitting in the dirt in a barn for about 20 years. I have taken it completely apart..until I got to the main spindle. I can't seem to get the chuck to come off of the spindle. I don't want to push on it too hard but It needs to come off eventually.
            >>
            >> Questions?
            >> How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise.
            >>
            >> The lathe has the bearings in the head stock not the babbits. After I get the chuck off how do I ge the rest of it apart? I cant pull the back gear off. I haven't put a puller on it as the rest of the machine came apart pretty easily.
            >>
            >> The head box needs to come apart as everything was completely locked up with dirt dobbers, sand and whatever else you can think of. The carriage wouldn't move at all when I started. I am not looking to do really detailed work with this, but would like a functional lathe.
            >>
            >> The bed was rusted pretty bad and pitted where the parts were not sitting. I tried to remove the rust gently but nothing seem to work. I ended up using a fine wire brush cup to remove the rust. I don't think I took off anything but rust, I figure I would rather have a lathe that was a little inaccurate and moved than one that was more accurate but the carriage wouldn't move. I have gone too long with this for the initial post. Lets start with how to removing the chuck and spindle.
            >>
            >> One more thing I need a 9-48B gear for the reversing gearbox. Where do I get one?
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Glenn N
            I am gonna toss out an idea that has worked for me many times on stuck fastners. Paraffin Wax and heat. You heat the parts to a smoking heat and push the
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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              I am gonna toss out an idea that has worked for me many times on stuck fastners. Paraffin Wax and heat. You heat the parts to a smoking heat and push the parafin into the joint. The paraffin wicks into the joint and by some majik makes it come loose. Has worked on many manifold bolts etc for me where other oils failed. No clue why it has worked better for me. A crayon makes a good source that is easy to apply to difficult to reach areas.

              Glenn
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Duke6901
              To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 6:40 AM
              Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Atlas TH42 Lathe Rebuild Main spindle help needed


              Hi
              thought I could help as I just went through this with my craftsman.
              First, engadge the back gears to hold spindle from turning. Use good penetrating oil
              LIBERALY!!!! Tap lightly with non marring hammer and let sit for hour or so.
              Use burnzomatic or some like propane torch and gently heat back side of chuck
              note at no point should the chuck glow red only looking for a good "smoky" heat.
              When hot spray p-oil from front side on to frozen joint. How this works? The heat acts
              as a carrier for the oil much like when soldering a plumers joint heat the cap and solder wicks to the heat. I recomend pb blaster or sea foam deep creep for p-oil as
              they have a relative high flash point. U will prob get flame while heating chuck from back side do to grime and old oil burn off, this only helps. Use something like wood in. Chuck to break loose (counter clockwise) normal thread. Had mine off in 1.5 hrs
              after 20+ years of sitting!
              Good luck
              Chris-

              --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "trenton.sain" <trenton.sain@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi I am new to the group and somewhat new to the world of machining. I was given an Atlas TH42 from about 49 I think. It had been sitting in the dirt in a barn for about 20 years. I have taken it completely apart..until I got to the main spindle. I can't seem to get the chuck to come off of the spindle. I don't want to push on it too hard but It needs to come off eventually.
              >
              > Questions?
              > How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise.
              >
              > The lathe has the bearings in the head stock not the babbits. After I get the chuck off how do I ge the rest of it apart? I cant pull the back gear off. I haven't put a puller on it as the rest of the machine came apart pretty easily.
              >
              > The head box needs to come apart as everything was completely locked up with dirt dobbers, sand and whatever else you can think of. The carriage wouldn't move at all when I started. I am not looking to do really detailed work with this, but would like a functional lathe.
              >
              > The bed was rusted pretty bad and pitted where the parts were not sitting. I tried to remove the rust gently but nothing seem to work. I ended up using a fine wire brush cup to remove the rust. I don't think I took off anything but rust, I figure I would rather have a lathe that was a little inaccurate and moved than one that was more accurate but the carriage wouldn't move. I have gone too long with this for the initial post. Lets start with how to removing the chuck and spindle.
              >
              > One more thing I need a 9-48B gear for the reversing gearbox. Where do I get one?
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • tazwellbramlette
              I have a similar vintage lathe that I am restoring. I have found used parts on eBay and new parts from Clausing Service Center (800-535-6553). Taz
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 1, 2009
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                I have a similar vintage lathe that I am restoring. I have found used parts on eBay and new parts from Clausing Service Center (800-535-6553).

                Taz

                --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "trenton.sain" <trenton.sain@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi I am new to the group and somewhat new to the world of machining. I was given an Atlas TH42 from about 49 I think. It had been sitting in the dirt in a barn for about 20 years. I have taken it completely apart..until I got to the main spindle. I can't seem to get the chuck to come off of the spindle. I don't want to push on it too hard but It needs to come off eventually.
                >
                > Questions?
                > How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise.
                >
                > The lathe has the bearings in the head stock not the babbits. After I get the chuck off how do I ge the rest of it apart? I cant pull the back gear off. I haven't put a puller on it as the rest of the machine came apart pretty easily.
                >
                > The head box needs to come apart as everything was completely locked up with dirt dobbers, sand and whatever else you can think of. The carriage wouldn't move at all when I started. I am not looking to do really detailed work with this, but would like a functional lathe.
                >
                > The bed was rusted pretty bad and pitted where the parts were not sitting. I tried to remove the rust gently but nothing seem to work. I ended up using a fine wire brush cup to remove the rust. I don't think I took off anything but rust, I figure I would rather have a lathe that was a little inaccurate and moved than one that was more accurate but the carriage wouldn't move. I have gone too long with this for the initial post. Lets start with how to removing the chuck and spindle.
                >
                > One more thing I need a 9-48B gear for the reversing gearbox. Where do I get one?
                >
              • trenton.sain
                This is the original poster. I finally got the chuck off. I loosened the keys until one of the teeth whas sticking out. I already had the whole lathe apart
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 5, 2009
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                  This is the original poster. I finally got the chuck off. I loosened the keys until one of the teeth whas sticking out. I already had the whole lathe apart so I couldn't use a strap wrench. I clamped the whole head stock in a vice wrapped the back gear with paper and put a monkey wrench on it (on the gear on the paper) and braced this on the work bench. I then hit the key with a rubber mallet....this didn't work. I have bad this thing covered with oil all around and inside for about two weeks. I took the rubber mallet and put in against the chuck key (probably wrong term) and hit the mallet with a bigger hammer. It broke loose after about three hits. (the back gear was OK). The spindle shaft looks fine but the chuck threads are rusted away and are what was holding the chuck stuck. I have taken everything apart except the headstock. It will spin but not free wheel, How tight should this be to spin. I don't feel it grabbing anywhere. If it needs to free wheel then I will have to take it apart. As it stands I cleaned it the best I can without taking it apart and was going to see if it would work.

                  The chuck teeth are worn pretty good and will have to be replaced to get any kind of accuracy. I was thinking of going with a 4 jaw chuck if I have to buy another one.


                  --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "tazwellbramlette" <tazwellbramlette@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have a similar vintage lathe that I am restoring. I have found used parts on eBay and new parts from Clausing Service Center (800-535-6553).
                  >
                  > Taz
                  >
                  > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "trenton.sain" <trenton.sain@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi I am new to the group and somewhat new to the world of machining. I was given an Atlas TH42 from about 49 I think. It had been sitting in the dirt in a barn for about 20 years. I have taken it completely apart..until I got to the main spindle. I can't seem to get the chuck to come off of the spindle. I don't want to push on it too hard but It needs to come off eventually.
                  > >
                  > > Questions?
                  > > How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise.
                  > >
                  > > The lathe has the bearings in the head stock not the babbits. After I get the chuck off how do I ge the rest of it apart? I cant pull the back gear off. I haven't put a puller on it as the rest of the machine came apart pretty easily.
                  > >
                  > > The head box needs to come apart as everything was completely locked up with dirt dobbers, sand and whatever else you can think of. The carriage wouldn't move at all when I started. I am not looking to do really detailed work with this, but would like a functional lathe.
                  > >
                  > > The bed was rusted pretty bad and pitted where the parts were not sitting. I tried to remove the rust gently but nothing seem to work. I ended up using a fine wire brush cup to remove the rust. I don't think I took off anything but rust, I figure I would rather have a lathe that was a little inaccurate and moved than one that was more accurate but the carriage wouldn't move. I have gone too long with this for the initial post. Lets start with how to removing the chuck and spindle.
                  > >
                  > > One more thing I need a 9-48B gear for the reversing gearbox. Where do I get one?
                  > >
                  >
                • Scott Henion
                  ... The Timken brearings in the spindle has a preload on it, it will not freewheel. Should turn easily though. You might try readjusting the preload (there are
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 5, 2009
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                    trenton.sain wrote:
                    > This is the original poster. I finally got the chuck off. I loosened the keys until one of the teeth whas sticking out. I already had the whole lathe apart so I couldn't use a strap wrench. I clamped the whole head stock in a vice wrapped the back gear with paper and put a monkey wrench on it (on the gear on the paper) and braced this on the work bench. I then hit the key with a rubber mallet....this didn't work. I have bad this thing covered with oil all around and inside for about two weeks. I took the rubber mallet and put in against the chuck key (probably wrong term) and hit the mallet with a bigger hammer. It broke loose after about three hits. (the back gear was OK). The spindle shaft looks fine but the chuck threads are rusted away and are what was holding the chuck stuck. I have taken everything apart except the headstock. It will spin but not free wheel, How tight should this be to spin. I don't feel it grabbing anywhere. If it needs to free wheel then I will have to take it apart. As it stands I cleaned it the best I can without taking it apart and was going to see if it would work.
                    >
                    > The chuck teeth are worn pretty good and will have to be replaced to get any kind of accuracy. I was thinking of going with a 4 jaw chuck if I have to buy another one.
                    >
                    The Timken brearings in the spindle has a preload on it, it will not
                    freewheel. Should turn easily though.

                    You might try readjusting the preload (there are instruction in the
                    files area somewhere.)

                    Make sure the pully turns freely on the spindle shaft. mine was real
                    tight as the original owner never oiled it (through the hole in the
                    pulley that looks like a set screw.)

                    If you can only afford 1 chuck, then a 4-jaw is better for accuracy.

                    --
                    ------------------------------------------
                    | Scott G. Henion| shenion@... |
                    | Consultant | Stone Mountain, GA |
                    | SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org |
                    ------------------------------------------

                    today's fortune
                    A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even
                    his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive.
                    -- Kirk, "The Omega Glory", stardate unknown
                  • Brett Jones
                    If the machine has spent a lot of time in a dirty barn, you should take the last steps and break down the headstock. The bearings are not sealed units and can
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 5, 2009
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                      If the machine has spent a lot of time in a dirty barn, you should take
                      the last steps and break down the headstock. The bearings are not sealed
                      units and can be thoroughly flushed of old oil and grime and inspected.

                      Scott Henion wrote:
                      > trenton.sain wrote:
                      >> This is the original poster. I finally got the chuck off. I loosened the keys until one of the teeth whas sticking out. I already had the whole lathe apart so I couldn't use a strap wrench. I clamped the whole head stock in a vice wrapped the back gear with paper and put a monkey wrench on it (on the gear on the paper) and braced this on the work bench. I then hit the key with a rubber mallet....this didn't work. I have bad this thing covered with oil all around and inside for about two weeks. I took the rubber mallet and put in against the chuck key (probably wrong term) and hit the mallet with a bigger hammer. It broke loose after about three hits. (the back gear was OK). The spindle shaft looks fine but the chuck threads are rusted away and are what was holding the chuck stuck. I have taken everything apart except the headstock. It will spin but not free wheel, How tight should this be to spin. I don't feel it grabbing anywhere. If it needs to free wheel t
                      hen I will have to take it apart. As it stands I cleaned it the best I can without taking it apart and was going to see if it would work.
                      >>
                      >> The chuck teeth are worn pretty good and will have to be replaced to get any kind of accuracy. I was thinking of going with a 4 jaw chuck if I have to buy another one.
                      >>
                      > The Timken brearings in the spindle has a preload on it, it will not
                      > freewheel. Should turn easily though.
                      >
                      > You might try readjusting the preload (there are instruction in the
                      > files area somewhere.)
                      >
                      > Make sure the pully turns freely on the spindle shaft. mine was real
                      > tight as the original owner never oiled it (through the hole in the
                      > pulley that looks like a set screw.)
                      >
                      > If you can only afford 1 chuck, then a 4-jaw is better for accuracy.
                      >


                      --
                      Brett Jones
                      brett@...
                    • mr_furious_george
                      ... anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the chuck would thread off counter clockwise. This is how I just removed mine... Image
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 8, 2009
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                        > How do I get the chuck off. I have a parts list but it doesn't show
                        anything holding it. I assume the threads are normal right hand and the
                        chuck would thread off counter clockwise.

                        This is how I just removed mine...
                        Image of collet removal
                        <http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2634/4074465586_5e6b9ac6f9.jpg>

                        Using the key to keep things from slipping on the shaft
                        <http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2505/4074465430_083d765fff.jpg>

                        Clamping set up
                        <http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2483/4073707697_67cd5fe36d.jpg>

                        ...it took a good amount of force, but it gave eventually.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • catboat15@aol.com
                        If you can only afford one chuck a four jaw independent chuck is the way to go. On my first lathe that was the only chuck I could afford and used only that
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 12, 2009
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                          If you can only afford one chuck a four jaw independent chuck is the way to
                          go. On my first lathe that was the only chuck I could afford and used only
                          that four jaw and turning between centers for several years.

                          One hint on the four jaw, order an extra chuck key so when centering work
                          on the four jaw you use one key on the jaw facing you and the other key in
                          back (keys 180 degrees apart) then as you adjust one jaw you can take up the
                          opposite jaw at the same time. You soon get good at centering work in the
                          four jaw that way and the result is more accurate centering then the cheap
                          three jaws you some times see. Like grinding your own HSS cutting bits a
                          nice skill to have and will save you both money and time over the years.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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