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Re: Flat ways not in same plane

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  • dragonfl1ght
    Joe R/Victor Being a COMPLETE noob (I haven t even powered mine up yet), but having thought oodles about it, I cannot see how a twisted bed could cause the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 3, 2008
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      Joe R/Victor

      Being a COMPLETE noob (I haven't even powered mine up yet), but having
      thought oodles about it, I cannot see how a twisted bed could cause
      the problem you are seeing - the insidious thing about a twist is that
      you can lay a straight edge anywhere and it is straight, but any two
      straight line are not in the same plane.
      Joe please correct me if I am wrong.

      You do not say how much out they are and whether the front or the back
      is out (ie if you lay a straight edge across the ways are both outer
      edges lower or just one)
      Is it possible that it is wear? When I took mine apart there was
      differential wear on the carriage (but very slight). I gather that the
      top front and the rear bottom wear most.

      I wish I could be of help, but I would sure be interested in the
      answer once you figure it out.

      mike

      --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Joe R" <jromas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Victor
      >
      > One of the first things you are supposed to do when setting up a
      lathe is to
      > make sure it's level. Yours is not and your bed has a twist in it.
      Believe
      > it or not cast iron will flex. My 12x36 had shims put in between the
      bed and
      > foot (for lack of a better name). They were to level the bed in all
      planes.
      >
      > Take hart, your lathe just needs leveled. Both off my South Bend
      Lathes have
      > Allen screws in the right foot to do just that. On the right foot of
      your
      > lathe loosen the mounting bolt and add a shim on the low side,
      tighten the
      > bolt and check. Continue till the twist is gone. You could also put the
      > shims between the foot and bed.
      >
      > Joe R
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "victorgooch" <victor@...>
      > To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:08 PM
      > Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Flat ways not in same plane
      >
      >
      > >I am the original owner of a Sears Craftsman 12 x 36. When
      > > checking for level I noticed ( for the first time in 35 years )
      > > that one of the ways is not in the same plane as the other.
      > > That is, when you lay a straight edge flat on one of the ways
      > > there is a gap between the outside corner and the straight edge
      > > of the opposite way. This lathe has never been abused or
      > > dropped. Could this be normal ??
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Victor
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
      > > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
      > > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
      > >
      > > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or
      links
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Jim Ash
      Seems to me there s a section on doing these checks in Machine Tool Reconditioning , 1955 by Edward Connelly. Still in print, but not a cheap date (close to
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 3, 2008
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        Seems to me there's a section on doing these checks in 'Machine Tool Reconditioning', 1955 by Edward Connelly. Still in print, but not a cheap date (close to $100 by the time you add in shipping). See if you can get it at the library.

        Armed with this knowledge, you'll still need one or more decent straight-edges as references. Your basic milled-edge aluminum level from Home Depot won't do it (unless your lathe is really, really bad).

        Jim Ash


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: dragonfl1ght <dragonflight@...>
        >Sent: Sep 3, 2008 8:29 PM
        >To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: Flat ways not in same plane
        >
        >Joe R/Victor
        >
        >Being a COMPLETE noob (I haven't even powered mine up yet), but having
        >thought oodles about it, I cannot see how a twisted bed could cause
        >the problem you are seeing - the insidious thing about a twist is that
        >you can lay a straight edge anywhere and it is straight, but any two
        >straight line are not in the same plane.
        >Joe please correct me if I am wrong.
        >
        >You do not say how much out they are and whether the front or the back
        >is out (ie if you lay a straight edge across the ways are both outer
        >edges lower or just one)
        >Is it possible that it is wear? When I took mine apart there was
        >differential wear on the carriage (but very slight). I gather that the
        >top front and the rear bottom wear most.
        >
        >I wish I could be of help, but I would sure be interested in the
        >answer once you figure it out.
        >
        >mike
        >
        >--- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Joe R" <jromas@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Victor
        >>
        >> One of the first things you are supposed to do when setting up a
        >lathe is to
        >> make sure it's level. Yours is not and your bed has a twist in it.
        >Believe
        >> it or not cast iron will flex. My 12x36 had shims put in between the
        >bed and
        >> foot (for lack of a better name). They were to level the bed in all
        >planes.
        >>
        >> Take hart, your lathe just needs leveled. Both off my South Bend
        >Lathes have
        >> Allen screws in the right foot to do just that. On the right foot of
        >your
        >> lathe loosen the mounting bolt and add a shim on the low side,
        >tighten the
        >> bolt and check. Continue till the twist is gone. You could also put the
        >> shims between the foot and bed.
        >>
        >> Joe R
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: "victorgooch" <victor@...>
        >> To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 4:08 PM
        >> Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Flat ways not in same plane
        >>
        >>
        >> >I am the original owner of a Sears Craftsman 12 x 36. When
        >> > checking for level I noticed ( for the first time in 35 years )
        >> > that one of the ways is not in the same plane as the other.
        >> > That is, when you lay a straight edge flat on one of the ways
        >> > there is a gap between the outside corner and the straight edge
        >> > of the opposite way. This lathe has never been abused or
        >> > dropped. Could this be normal ??
        >> >
        >> > Regards,
        >> > Victor
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > ------------------------------------
        >> >
        >> > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
        >> > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
        >> > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >> >
        >> > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
        >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
        >> >
        >> > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or
        >links
        >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >
        >
      • catboat15@aol.com
        That is strange, if I read you correctly. Ways can be twisted out of position if the lathe is not leveled correctly (I put Level in quotes as Leveling is
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 3, 2008
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          That is strange, if I read you correctly. Ways can be twisted out of
          position if the lathe is not "leveled" correctly (I put Level in quotes as
          "Leveling" is the common term for getting both ends in the same plane, level or on a
          tilt, but the same tilt) Leveling is the common term because that plane is
          easy to determine with a quality machinist's level.

          Now, there are ways that are "humped" higher in the middle and lower at the
          ends as well as sagged or what a boat builder would call "hogged" and there
          are directions in the manuals to correct that fault, by shimming various places
          under the feet. So I would assume your fault would be that one of the
          "legs" at the head stock end has a shim or uneven bearing on your table to place
          a twist on one way, but not the other.

          Shims placed inside the mounting bolts will tend to make the ways bow
          upwards and shims placed outside the mounting bolts will bow the ways to make a
          hollow in the center. That is why the book shows shims made to bear on the
          whole foot with only a slot for the mounting bolt.

          Some users bolt the head down tightly and allow the tails stock end to float
          slightly. My own Atlas has only one mounting hole at the tail stock end and
          that is how I have mounted it, two tight bolts at the head stock and only a
          finger tight bolt at the single tail stock mounting hole. (That hole is in
          the center, of course)

          Assuming you have the more usual four bolt mounting system what I would do
          is to loosen all the mounting bolts or screws, do the measurements again and
          work from that point. Adding and/or removing shims as required. Getting all
          readings the same of course. If your precision level (Not from the local home
          center) reads the same every place on the bed you are there.
          Also there is a method of assuring lathe leveling that does not use a level,
          called "Rollies Dad's way to level a lathe" which involves chucking up a
          known straight bar and taking measurements along the known bar. Some machine
          shops keep a "test bar" in the tool room for doing this and periodically check
          lathe alignment. (This will not only check for level, but also check for tail
          stock alignment.)


          John Meacham
          Littlerock, California
          12 inch Atlas lathe, Mini-mill, band saw and a rusty file.



          **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
          deal here.
          (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jake09305
          If I might add on to John s comments...the surface on which the lathe is mounted makes a significant difference especially if it is a wooden bench. Wood
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 4, 2008
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            If I might add on to John's comments...the surface on which the
            lathe is mounted makes a significant difference especially if it is a
            wooden bench. Wood moves...over night and from season to season.
            The "test-bar" has the advantage that it will verify the
            alignment of the vertical and horizontal axises of the lathe
            regardless of how or where it is mounted.
            The pursuit of "level" is because that is the way the lathe was
            initially manufactured and assembled....on a "flat" "level" surface.
            You want to replicate that.
            Henry

            --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, catboat15@... wrote:
            >
            > That is strange, if I read you correctly. Ways can be twisted out of
            > position if the lathe is not "leveled" correctly (I put Level in
            quotes as
            > "Leveling" is the common term for getting both ends in the same
            plane, level or on a
            > tilt, but the same tilt) Leveling is the common term because that
            plane is
            > easy to determine with a quality machinist's level.
            >
            > Now, there are ways that are "humped" higher in the middle and lower
            at the
            > ends as well as sagged or what a boat builder would call "hogged"
            and there
            > are directions in the manuals to correct that fault, by shimming
            various places
            > under the feet. So I would assume your fault would be that one of
            the
            > "legs" at the head stock end has a shim or uneven bearing on your
            table to place
            > a twist on one way, but not the other.
            >
            > Shims placed inside the mounting bolts will tend to make the ways bow
            > upwards and shims placed outside the mounting bolts will bow the
            ways to make a
            > hollow in the center. That is why the book shows shims made to
            bear on the
            > whole foot with only a slot for the mounting bolt.
            >
            > Some users bolt the head down tightly and allow the tails stock end
            to float
            > slightly. My own Atlas has only one mounting hole at the tail stock
            end and
            > that is how I have mounted it, two tight bolts at the head stock and
            only a
            > finger tight bolt at the single tail stock mounting hole. (That
            hole is in
            > the center, of course)
            >
            > Assuming you have the more usual four bolt mounting system what I
            would do
            > is to loosen all the mounting bolts or screws, do the measurements
            again and
            > work from that point. Adding and/or removing shims as required.
            Getting all
            > readings the same of course. If your precision level (Not from the
            local home
            > center) reads the same every place on the bed you are there.
            > Also there is a method of assuring lathe leveling that does not use
            a level,
            > called "Rollies Dad's way to level a lathe" which involves chucking
            up a
            > known straight bar and taking measurements along the known bar. Some
            machine
            > shops keep a "test bar" in the tool room for doing this and
            periodically check
            > lathe alignment. (This will not only check for level, but also check
            for tail
            > stock alignment.)
            >
            >
            > John Meacham
            > Littlerock, California
            > 12 inch Atlas lathe, Mini-mill, band saw and a rusty file.
            >
            >
            >
            > **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
            your travel
            > deal here.
            > (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
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