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A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel

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  • amsvette
    I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work, copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline pliers, which are
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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      I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
      copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
      pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
      nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
      etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
      needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
      Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
      days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
      and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
      tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
      glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
      tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
      blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
      how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
      was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
      the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
      I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
      winded.

      Thanks,
      Adam
    • mertbaker
      Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If they were not, they won t harden by that method. If they were, tempering at blue my have
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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        Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If they
        were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were, tempering at blue
        my have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool steel, use the
        grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end. Note the
        sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try the same test
        with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon.
        Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of one handle.
        Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot & quench in oil. Try the hardness
        with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in the toaster
        oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the fille WILL cut the nose, reheat &
        quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425° as above.
        Not tool steel? Heat red hot & stir 'em around in a can of Kasenit (TM)
        from the hardware store. Reheat & quench in water. Now the surface will be
        hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft & tough.
        Mert

        MertBaker@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "amsvette" <adamandjen@...>
        To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:06 AM
        Subject: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel


        > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
        > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
        > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
        > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
        > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
        > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
        > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
        > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
        > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
        > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
        > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
        > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
        > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
        > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
        > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
        > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
        > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
        > winded.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Adam
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Kirk Scammon
        Adam, You shoould check to see if the pliers hardened after the first quench with a file. If they don t harden, the steel does not have enough carbon. You can
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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          Adam,

          You shoould check to see if the pliers hardened after the first quench with
          a file. If they don't harden, the steel does not have enough carbon. You can
          buy some case hardening compound ( Kasenit ) that will allow you to form a
          case hardened layer on the steel. Brownells or McMaster Carr both carry it.

          Kirk
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "amsvette" <adamandjen@...>
          To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:06 AM
          Subject: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel


          > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
          > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
          > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
          > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
          > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
          > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
          > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
          > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
          > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
          > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
          > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
          > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
          > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
          > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
          > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
          > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
          > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
          > winded.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Adam
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
          > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
          > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
          >
          > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • John R.Sandhagen
          My understanding is that it depends on the carbon already in the steel. Low carbon, low hardness. ... John Sandhagen Equipment Technician, Music Department
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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            My understanding is that it depends on the carbon already in the steel.
            Low carbon, low hardness.
            On Feb, 1 2006, , at 8:06 AM, amsvette wrote:

            > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
            > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
            > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
            > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
            > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
            > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
            > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
            > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
            > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
            > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
            > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
            > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
            > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
            > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
            > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
            > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
            > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
            > winded.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Adam
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
            > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
            > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
            >
            > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            John Sandhagen
            Equipment Technician,
            Music Department
            1-909-869-3550
            jrsandhagen@...
          • Paul
            Adam, One option is to buy a new pair of screw pliers. Here is a link to a pair from Lee Valley Tools:
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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              Adam,

              One option is to buy a new pair of screw pliers. Here is a link to a
              pair from Lee Valley Tools:

              http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,4133\
              1
              <http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,413\
              31>

              Paul


              --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "amsvette" <adamandjen@m...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
              > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
              > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
              > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
              > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
              > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
              > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
              > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
              > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
              > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
              > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
              > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
              > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
              > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
              > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
              > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
              > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
              > winded.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Adam
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Davis
              You can harden them with an acetylene toruch by heating them bright red, then turning off the oxygen and applying the smoking yellow acetylene-only flame
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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                You can harden them with an acetylene toruch by heating them bright red,
                then turning off the oxygen and applying the smoking yellow acetylene-only
                flame (almost pure carbon) to the teeth. Do this several times, then reheat
                and quench in water.

                since the jaws are already soft and only the teeth will be hard, you can
                temper them to a straw color and should be good to go. What you will have
                done is case harden the teeth.

                Jim in Maine


                --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, John R.Sandhagen
                <jrsandhagen@c...> wrote:
                >
                > My understanding is that it depends on the carbon already in the steel.
                > Low carbon, low hardness.
                > On Feb, 1 2006, , at 8:06 AM, amsvette wrote:
                >
                >
              • Adam Meister
                Thanks for the tips Mert, I ll try the grinder test. It looks like I broke a small chunk out of one of the teeth, not smashed them as previously thought so
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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                  Thanks for the tips Mert, I'll try the grinder test. It looks like I broke a
                  small chunk out of one of the teeth, not smashed them as previously thought
                  so maybe I did harden them after all? Kinda hard to tell. I'd like to get
                  this done so I can blue them with gun blueing (spelling?) and put them to
                  work in my tool kit. I appreciate anyone willing to pass along some of their
                  wisdom.

                  Thanks,
                  Adam




                  >From: "mertbaker" <MertBaker@...>
                  >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                  >steel
                  >Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:31:45 -0500
                  >
                  >Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If they
                  >were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were, tempering at
                  >blue
                  >my have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool steel, use the
                  >grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end. Note the
                  >sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try the same test
                  >with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon.
                  > Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of one
                  >handle.
                  >Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot & quench in oil. Try the
                  >hardness
                  >with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in the toaster
                  >oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the fille WILL cut the nose, reheat &
                  >quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425� as above.
                  >Not tool steel? Heat red hot & stir 'em around in a can of Kasenit (TM)
                  >from the hardware store. Reheat & quench in water. Now the surface will
                  >be
                  >hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft & tough.
                  >Mert
                  >
                  >MertBaker@...
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "amsvette" <adamandjen@...>
                  >To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:06 AM
                  >Subject: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel
                  >
                  >
                  > > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
                  > > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
                  > > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
                  > > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
                  > > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
                  > > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
                  > > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
                  > > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
                  > > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
                  > > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
                  > > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
                  > > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
                  > > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
                  > > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
                  > > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
                  > > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
                  > > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
                  > > winded.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Adam
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                  > > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                  > > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                  > >
                  > > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                  >You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                  >atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                  >
                  >To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                  >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • Adam Meister
                  Thanks Kirk, I knew I asked the right group of people. Perhaps I ll get to use thes pliers on my 12 x 36 Craftsman lathe so I don t feel bad for posting the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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                    Thanks Kirk, I knew I asked the right group of people. Perhaps I'll get to
                    use thes pliers on my 12" x 36" Craftsman lathe so I don't feel bad for
                    posting the question!

                    Adam


                    >From: "Kirk Scammon" <kscammon@...>
                    >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                    >steel
                    >Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:41:49 -0500
                    >
                    >Adam,
                    >
                    >You shoould check to see if the pliers hardened after the first quench with
                    >a file. If they don't harden, the steel does not have enough carbon. You
                    >can
                    >buy some case hardening compound ( Kasenit ) that will allow you to form a
                    >case hardened layer on the steel. Brownells or McMaster Carr both carry it.
                    >
                    >Kirk
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    >From: "amsvette" <adamandjen@...>
                    >To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 11:06 AM
                    >Subject: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel
                    >
                    >
                    > > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of work,
                    > > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of gasline
                    > > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout on the
                    > > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as screws,
                    > > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
                    > > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
                    > > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
                    > > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are very soft
                    > > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
                    > > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the jaws
                    > > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water. Then I
                    > > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
                    > > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is (finally!)
                    > > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the screwhead I
                    > > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the teeth on
                    > > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the fact
                    > > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being so long
                    > > winded.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Adam
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    > > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    > > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    > >
                    > > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                    >You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                    >atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                    >
                    >To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
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                  • Dennis Pasek
                    Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability* and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface. But, you need to heat treat according to the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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                      Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability*
                      and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface.

                      But, you need to heat treat according to the alloy content. Mert's
                      suggestions are the best you can get for empirical work when you
                      really don't know what you have. That method works especially well
                      for plain carbon and high carbon, low alloy steels. It will not work
                      as well for high alloy tool steels, partly because those materials
                      require much longer tempering times. Remember, high carbon is needed
                      for tool steels, but high carbon alone does not make for tool steel.
                      Spring steels are often near 1% carbon, but with little or no alloy
                      content as with AISI 10100, and are not very useful as tool steels.
                      The alloy additions provide additional properties like high
                      temperature stability (as for HSS), extra toughness in the hardened
                      condition (as with S7) etc.

                      If that pair of pliers is made of tool steel, it is probably still too
                      brittle to use, thus the chipped tooth. If you (Adam) have any big
                      scrap metal recyclers in your area, they might have an X-ray
                      fluorescence scanner that could quickly identify the type of alloy
                      used to make those pliers.

                      This page:
                      http://www.pvsteel.com/ToolSteelBook.asp
                      has some good info if you are interested. Look at the "Tool Steel
                      Selector" link near the bottom of the page. This suggests what types
                      of tool steels to use for various applications. Then look at the
                      "Uses & Heat Treat Data" links in the second column. These data
                      sheets don't specify, but tempering times for tool steels are
                      typically 1 to 2 *hours* at the indicated temperature, and sometimes
                      double tempering is required. Also, while a water quench is
                      appropriate for plain carbon steel, it is much too harsh for most tool
                      steels, and could cause cracking. (Remember the advice to never water
                      quench HSS tools after grinding for this reason.)

                      Some better data sheets are available at:
                      http://www.crucibleservice.com/datasheets/index.cfm

                      Tool steel types are described at:
                      http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/toolsteels.html
                      and anyone interested can go up one level for a full intro.

                      Sorry for the length of my post, but there is a lot more to heat
                      treatment (and a lot more that can go wrong) than you might think.

                      Dennis


                      --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, John R.Sandhagen
                      <jrsandhagen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My understanding is that it depends on the carbon already in the steel.
                      > Low carbon, low hardness.
                      ...
                    • jmartin957@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/1/06 11:49:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Mert is right on target. I d add only a couple of things. If they were soft to start with,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 1, 2006
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                        In a message dated 2/1/06 11:49:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                        MertBaker@... writes:

                        >
                        > Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If they
                        > were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were, tempering at blue
                        > my have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool steel, use the
                        > grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end. Note the
                        > sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try the same test
                        > with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon.
                        > Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of one handle.
                        > Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot &quench in oil. Try the hardness
                        > with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in the toaster
                        > oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the fille WILL cut the nose, reheat &
                        > quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425° as above.
                        > Not tool steel? Heat red hot &stir 'em around in a can of Kasenit (TM)
                        > from the hardware store. Reheat &quench in water. Now the surface will be
                        > hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft &tough.
                        > Mert
                        >
                        > MertBaker@...
                        >

                        Mert is right on target. I'd add only a couple of things.

                        If they were soft to start with, they probably weren't a tool steel - 'cause
                        if they went to the expense of decent steel, they would have hardened it.
                        Maybe, though, they were hard originally and lost that hardness.

                        If they are low carbon, you have to add it. Kasenit is indeed the choice. I
                        don't know what hardware Mert frequents though, because even the welding
                        suppliers near me don't stock it anymore.

                        To build up a decent case thickness, it's a good idea to keep the heat on for
                        a few minutes while the piece is covered with Kasenit. Dip it a couple of
                        times.

                        You'll note Mert said nothing about tempering. With a soft steel core,
                        there's not as much need to temper as there is with a solid high carbon tool. The
                        teeth might be a bit more prone to chipping, but they may just work better.
                        When the original poster talked of tempering the tool I presume he played the
                        flame right on the teeth - which may have annealed them. If he really wants to
                        anneal, it might be better to not hit the teeth with the flame, but let the
                        colors run to them. Those teeth are small, and will heat up too quickly in the
                        flame. Which could also decarburize them in the hardening step.

                        John Martin


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • paul_probus
                        This is probably the cheapest and easiest answer. I only hope that Adam did not pay too much for the pair that he bought. Paul ... a ...
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          This is probably the cheapest and easiest answer. I only hope that
                          Adam did not pay too much for the pair that he bought.

                          Paul

                          --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <mylameid@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Adam,
                          >
                          > One option is to buy a new pair of screw pliers. Here is a link to
                          a
                          > pair from Lee Valley Tools:
                          >
                          > http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?
                          c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,4133\
                          > 1
                          > <http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?
                          c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,413\
                          > 31>
                          >
                          > Paul
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "amsvette"
                          <adamandjen@m...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of
                          work,
                          > > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of
                          gasline
                          > > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout
                          on the
                          > > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as
                          screws,
                          > > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
                          > > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
                          > > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
                          > > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are
                          very soft
                          > > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
                          > > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the
                          jaws
                          > > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water.
                          Then I
                          > > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
                          > > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is
                          (finally!)
                          > > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the
                          screwhead I
                          > > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the
                          teeth on
                          > > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the
                          fact
                          > > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being
                          so long
                          > > winded.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks,
                          > > Adam
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Adam Meister
                          Those are exactly what I m looking for! Crescent called them gasline pliers as I guess at one time they were used to work on gas burners. I didn t pay hardly
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Those are exactly what I'm looking for! Crescent called them gasline pliers
                            as I guess at one time they were used to work on gas burners. I didn't pay
                            hardly anything for the antique pair an ebay, wheich is why I didn't mind
                            trying to harden them and clean them up. Thank you so much for the link, now
                            all the technicians where I work can get a pair.

                            Thanks,
                            Adam

                            >From: "paul_probus" <paul_probus@...>
                            >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                            >steel
                            >Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:53:13 -0000
                            >
                            >This is probably the cheapest and easiest answer. I only hope that
                            >Adam did not pay too much for the pair that he bought.
                            >
                            >Paul
                            >
                            >--- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <mylameid@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Adam,
                            > >
                            > > One option is to buy a new pair of screw pliers. Here is a link to
                            >a
                            > > pair from Lee Valley Tools:
                            > >
                            > > http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?
                            >c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,4133\
                            > > 1
                            > > <http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?
                            >c=2&p=48332&cat=3,41306,413\
                            > > 31>
                            > >
                            > > Paul
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "amsvette"
                            ><adamandjen@m...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I recently had a need for some specialty pliers. In my line of
                            >work,
                            > > > copier repar, I come accross stripped screws. I had a pair of
                            >gasline
                            > > > pliers, which are similar to linesman pliers but have a cutout
                            >on the
                            > > > nose of the pliers for gripping small round objects (such as
                            >screws,
                            > > > etc). Long story short, Crescent discontinued them when I really
                            > > > needed a pair. Ebay to the rescue...I bought a pair of old J.P.
                            > > > Danielson gasline pliers. It's old and has definitely seen better
                            > > > days. After a quick de-rusting sesion I noticed the jaws are
                            >very soft
                            > > > and easily marked. Decided to try my hand at flame hardening and
                            > > > tempering. Based on what I read on the internet, I heated the
                            >jaws
                            > > > glowing red with my MAP gas torch, and quenched them in water.
                            >Then I
                            > > > tempered them by heating them gradually until the metal turned a
                            > > > blue/brown color and then requenched it. Now my question is
                            >(finally!)
                            > > > how do I know if I was successful? I was able to grip the
                            >screwhead I
                            > > > was tring to remove, but it still looks like I deformed the
                            >teeth on
                            > > > the pliers a bit. Any suggestions? Or do I have to live with the
                            >fact
                            > > > I'm trying to use a really old pair of pliers? Sorry for being
                            >so long
                            > > > winded.
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks,
                            > > > Adam
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                            >You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                            >atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                            >
                            >To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                            >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
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                            >
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                          • Adam Meister
                            Thanks for the added info John. I compared the amount of sparks of the grinding wheel and the pliers and an old file appeared to be the same. So I can assume
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for the added info John. I compared the amount of sparks of the
                              grinding wheel and the pliers and an old file appeared to be the same. So I
                              can assume the pliers are (or were) high carbon steel, I think that I messed
                              up trying to temper them with too much heat. All may be a non-issue as Paul
                              sent me a link for the exact pliers I'm looking for brand new. I'm kinda
                              growing attatched to these old pliers though, so I may finish them anyway.
                              They look good next to my 1937 Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe when it's done.

                              Thanks,
                              Adam

                              >From: jmartin957@...
                              >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                              >steel
                              >Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:47:45 EST
                              >
                              >In a message dated 2/1/06 11:49:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                              >MertBaker@... writes:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon) steel. If
                              >they
                              > > were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were, tempering at
                              >blue
                              > > my have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool steel, use
                              >the
                              > > grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end. Note the
                              > > sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try the same
                              >test
                              > > with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon.
                              > > Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of one
                              >handle.
                              > > Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot &quench in oil. Try the
                              >hardness
                              > > with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in the
                              >toaster
                              > > oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the fille WILL cut the nose, reheat &
                              > > quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425� as above.
                              > > Not tool steel? Heat red hot &stir 'em around in a can of Kasenit (TM)
                              > > from the hardware store. Reheat &quench in water. Now the surface will
                              >be
                              > > hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft &tough.
                              > > Mert
                              > >
                              > > MertBaker@...
                              > >
                              >
                              >Mert is right on target. I'd add only a couple of things.
                              >
                              >If they were soft to start with, they probably weren't a tool steel -
                              >'cause
                              >if they went to the expense of decent steel, they would have hardened it.
                              >Maybe, though, they were hard originally and lost that hardness.
                              >
                              >If they are low carbon, you have to add it. Kasenit is indeed the choice.
                              >I
                              >don't know what hardware Mert frequents though, because even the welding
                              >suppliers near me don't stock it anymore.
                              >
                              >To build up a decent case thickness, it's a good idea to keep the heat on
                              >for
                              >a few minutes while the piece is covered with Kasenit. Dip it a couple of
                              >times.
                              >
                              >You'll note Mert said nothing about tempering. With a soft steel core,
                              >there's not as much need to temper as there is with a solid high carbon
                              >tool. The
                              >teeth might be a bit more prone to chipping, but they may just work better.
                              >When the original poster talked of tempering the tool I presume he played
                              >the
                              >flame right on the teeth - which may have annealed them. If he really
                              >wants to
                              >anneal, it might be better to not hit the teeth with the flame, but let the
                              >colors run to them. Those teeth are small, and will heat up too quickly in
                              >the
                              >flame. Which could also decarburize them in the hardening step.
                              >
                              >John Martin
                              >
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                              >You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                              >atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman_projects/
                              >
                              >To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Adam Meister
                              Thanks for the info, I wish you could see the deer in the headlights look I had while reading it. There is a lot I still need to learn, as I didn t realize
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                Thanks for the info, I wish you could see the "deer in the headlights" look
                                I had while reading it. There is a lot I still need to learn, as I didn't
                                realize there was that much about steel! Closest I ever got to learning
                                about steel is when I would service the copier at the Basic Oxygen Furnace
                                at Rouge Steel in Dearborn, Michigan. Even then, I only got to see stuff
                                being added without knowing what it was. I'll check out those links for some
                                interesting reading.

                                Thanks,
                                Adam

                                >From: "Dennis Pasek" <dennis.pasek@...>
                                >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                                >steel
                                >Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:51:38 -0000
                                >
                                >Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability*
                                >and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface.
                                >
                                >But, you need to heat treat according to the alloy content. Mert's
                                >suggestions are the best you can get for empirical work when you
                                >really don't know what you have. That method works especially well
                                >for plain carbon and high carbon, low alloy steels. It will not work
                                >as well for high alloy tool steels, partly because those materials
                                >require much longer tempering times. Remember, high carbon is needed
                                >for tool steels, but high carbon alone does not make for tool steel.
                                >Spring steels are often near 1% carbon, but with little or no alloy
                                >content as with AISI 10100, and are not very useful as tool steels.
                                >The alloy additions provide additional properties like high
                                >temperature stability (as for HSS), extra toughness in the hardened
                                >condition (as with S7) etc.
                                >
                                >If that pair of pliers is made of tool steel, it is probably still too
                                >brittle to use, thus the chipped tooth. If you (Adam) have any big
                                >scrap metal recyclers in your area, they might have an X-ray
                                >fluorescence scanner that could quickly identify the type of alloy
                                >used to make those pliers.
                                >
                                >This page:
                                >http://www.pvsteel.com/ToolSteelBook.asp
                                >has some good info if you are interested. Look at the "Tool Steel
                                >Selector" link near the bottom of the page. This suggests what types
                                >of tool steels to use for various applications. Then look at the
                                >"Uses & Heat Treat Data" links in the second column. These data
                                >sheets don't specify, but tempering times for tool steels are
                                >typically 1 to 2 *hours* at the indicated temperature, and sometimes
                                >double tempering is required. Also, while a water quench is
                                >appropriate for plain carbon steel, it is much too harsh for most tool
                                >steels, and could cause cracking. (Remember the advice to never water
                                >quench HSS tools after grinding for this reason.)
                                >
                                >Some better data sheets are available at:
                                >http://www.crucibleservice.com/datasheets/index.cfm
                                >
                                >Tool steel types are described at:
                                >http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/toolsteels.html
                                >and anyone interested can go up one level for a full intro.
                                >
                                >Sorry for the length of my post, but there is a lot more to heat
                                >treatment (and a lot more that can go wrong) than you might think.
                                >
                                > Dennis
                                >
                                >
                                >--- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, John R.Sandhagen
                                ><jrsandhagen@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > My understanding is that it depends on the carbon already in the steel.
                                > > Low carbon, low hardness.
                                >...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                                >You do this yourself by sending a message to:
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                              • Kirk Scammon
                                Dennis, Low carbon dosen t equate to low hardinability, it equates to low utimate hardness. Hardenability is a measure of the ease required to get the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                  Dennis,

                                  Low carbon dosen't equate to low hardinability, it equates to low utimate
                                  hardness. Hardenability is a measure of the ease required to get the
                                  transformation in the steels crystal structure that gives it hardness.
                                  Carbon has little affect on the hardenability of the steel. Take W-1 and O-1
                                  steels, both have approximatly 1% carbon, and both can achive hardness in
                                  the range of 65 rockwell C. You must quench W-1 in brine, and if the section
                                  is thick, it will only harden on the outside. O-1 can be quenched in oil and
                                  will throug harden to at lease 1 inch. Its the chromium in the O-1 that
                                  makes it more hardenable. A series tool steels can be quenched in air, as
                                  thay have more alloy additions that promote transformation to high hardness
                                  structures.

                                  Kirk
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Dennis Pasek" <dennis.pasek@...>
                                  To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 8:51 PM
                                  Subject: [atlas_craftsman] Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of
                                  steel


                                  > Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability*
                                  > and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface.
                                  >
                                • James Davis
                                  Got to disagree in part. In plain carbon steels, the carbon is the ONLY thing that makes the steel thermally hardenable. Further, 1% carbon is a huge
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                    Got to disagree in part. In plain carbon steels, the carbon is the ONLY thing
                                    that makes the steel thermally hardenable. Further, 1% carbon is a huge
                                    amount. Plain carbon 1045 steel is .045 percent carbon--less than 1/2 of
                                    one percent.

                                    Files and rock bits are 1090 to 1095 in plain carbon steel, equating to 9/10
                                    of a percent of carbon.

                                    But carbon isn't magic. Wrought iron has far more carbon than tool steels.



                                    --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Scammon" <kscammon@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dennis,
                                    >
                                    > Low carbon dosen't equate to low hardinability, it equates to low utimate
                                    > hardness. Hardenability is a measure of the ease required to get the
                                    > transformation in the steels crystal structure that gives it hardness.
                                    >
                                  • Dennis Pasek
                                    Was: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel Kirk used the specific terminology correctly. Definition Excerpt: In general the higher the carbon
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 2, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Was: Re: A wee bit off topic - flame hardening of steel

                                      Kirk used the specific terminology correctly.
                                      Definition Excerpt: "In general the higher the carbon content, the
                                      greater the hardenability, whilst alloying elements such as nickel,
                                      chromium, manganese and molybdenum increase the depth of hardening for
                                      a given ruling section."
                                      And Yes, steel is hardened through controlled metal carbide formation
                                      whether that metal is Iron or (an) alloying element(s).
                                      The question as to results, is how well you control the process.

                                      Topic change:
                                      A somewhat more topical, related question that I have is how well can
                                      the Atlas lathe machine the higher chromium content alloys like A2,
                                      D2, and the 400 series or PH types of stainless steel? There are
                                      machinablilty ratings in 'Machinerys Handbook', but they would seem to
                                      be more useful for more heavily built machines. Has anyone compared
                                      the free machining, resulfurized steels and 'stress proof' with O1 and
                                      the other common tool steels specifically on the Atlas lathes? What
                                      adjustments did you make to speeds and feeds (and tool bit type,) and
                                      were you able to get good finishes at all with the alloy steels? Or
                                      do you, for the most part, just forget about using most steels that
                                      are intended for heat treatment.

                                      Dennis


                                      --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "James Davis" <jc_davis@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Got to disagree in part. In plain carbon steels, the carbon is
                                      the ONLY thing
                                      > that makes the steel thermally hardenable. Further, 1% carbon is
                                      a huge
                                      > amount. Plain carbon 1045 steel is 0.45 percent carbon--less
                                      than 1/2 of
                                      > one percent.
                                      >
                                      > Files and rock bits are 1090 to 1095 in plain carbon steel,
                                      equating to 9/10
                                      > of a percent of carbon.
                                      >
                                      > But carbon isn't magic. Wrought iron has far more carbon than
                                      tool steels.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Kirk Scammon" <kscammon@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dennis,
                                      > >
                                      > > Low carbon dosen't equate to low hardinability, it equates to low
                                      utimate
                                      > > hardness. Hardenability is a measure of the ease required to get the
                                      > > transformation in the steels crystal structure that gives it hardness.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • paul_probus
                                      Actually, I can t take credit for it, I was only quoting someone else s message and kept the link. You should thank that person. Paul ... the ... same. So I
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                        Actually, I can't take credit for it, I was only quoting someone
                                        else's message and kept the link. You should thank that person.

                                        Paul

                                        --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "Adam Meister"
                                        <adamandjen@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the added info John. I compared the amount of sparks of
                                        the
                                        > grinding wheel and the pliers and an old file appeared to be the
                                        same. So I
                                        > can assume the pliers are (or were) high carbon steel, I think
                                        that I messed
                                        > up trying to temper them with too much heat. All may be a non-
                                        issue as Paul
                                        > sent me a link for the exact pliers I'm looking for brand new. I'm
                                        kinda
                                        > growing attatched to these old pliers though, so I may finish them
                                        anyway.
                                        > They look good next to my 1937 Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe when it's
                                        done.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        > Adam
                                        >
                                        > >From: jmartin957@...
                                        > >Reply-To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] A wee bit off topic - flame
                                        hardening of
                                        > >steel
                                        > >Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:47:45 EST
                                        > >
                                        > >In a message dated 2/1/06 11:49:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        > >MertBaker@... writes:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Those pliers may not have been made of tool (high carbon)
                                        steel. If
                                        > >they
                                        > > > were not, they won't harden by that method. If they were,
                                        tempering at
                                        > >blue
                                        > > > my have gotten 'em too soft. To find out if they were tool
                                        steel, use
                                        > >the
                                        > > > grinder test. Take an old file, and grind a bit off the end.
                                        Note the
                                        > > > sparks. Lots of "stars" indicate high carbon content. Try
                                        the same
                                        > >test
                                        > > > with a common nail note: no stars. Low carbon.
                                        > > > Now try the pliers, grinding a bit on the inside of the end of
                                        one
                                        > >handle.
                                        > > > Tool steel? If so, heat the nose red hot &quench in oil. Try
                                        the
                                        > >hardness
                                        > > > with a file. If the file will not cut the pliers, set 'em in
                                        the
                                        > >toaster
                                        > > > oven at 425 for 20 min or so. If the fille WILL cut the nose,
                                        reheat &
                                        > > > quench in water. Try the file. Won't cut? temper at 425° as
                                        above.
                                        > > > Not tool steel? Heat red hot &stir 'em around in a can of
                                        Kasenit (TM)
                                        > > > from the hardware store. Reheat &quench in water. Now the
                                        surface will
                                        > >be
                                        > > > hard, but the rest of the tool will be soft &tough.
                                        > > > Mert
                                        > > >
                                        > > > MertBaker@...
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >Mert is right on target. I'd add only a couple of things.
                                        > >
                                        > >If they were soft to start with, they probably weren't a tool
                                        steel -
                                        > >'cause
                                        > >if they went to the expense of decent steel, they would have
                                        hardened it.
                                        > >Maybe, though, they were hard originally and lost that hardness.
                                        > >
                                        > >If they are low carbon, you have to add it. Kasenit is indeed
                                        the choice.
                                        > >I
                                        > >don't know what hardware Mert frequents though, because even the
                                        welding
                                        > >suppliers near me don't stock it anymore.
                                        > >
                                        > >To build up a decent case thickness, it's a good idea to keep the
                                        heat on
                                        > >for
                                        > >a few minutes while the piece is covered with Kasenit. Dip it a
                                        couple of
                                        > >times.
                                        > >
                                        > >You'll note Mert said nothing about tempering. With a soft steel
                                        core,
                                        > >there's not as much need to temper as there is with a solid high
                                        carbon
                                        > >tool. The
                                        > >teeth might be a bit more prone to chipping, but they may just
                                        work better.
                                        > >When the original poster talked of tempering the tool I presume
                                        he played
                                        > >the
                                        > >flame right on the teeth - which may have annealed them. If he
                                        really
                                        > >wants to
                                        > >anneal, it might be better to not hit the teeth with the flame,
                                        but let the
                                        > >colors run to them. Those teeth are small, and will heat up too
                                        quickly in
                                        > >the
                                        > >flame. Which could also decarburize them in the hardening step.
                                        > >
                                        > >John Martin
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                      • Russ R
                                        Dennis... excellent info and links!!! Thanks! Russ Dennis Pasek wrote: Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability* and there is only
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                          Dennis... excellent info and links!!! Thanks! Russ

                                          Dennis Pasek <dennis.pasek@...> wrote: Close. Low carbon = Low *hardenability*
                                          and there is only so far that you can go by adding carbon at the surface.
                                          ...snip...



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