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Re: [atlas_craftsman] Re: QC holders, tooling, lubricants--schooling please!

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  • jmartin957@aol.com
    In a message dated 9/2/2004 2:34:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... What you re really talking about is coolant as opposed to cutting oil. For flood cooling,
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 2, 2004
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      In a message dated 9/2/2004 2:34:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      jgourlay@... writes:


      > Toxicity aside, what are the upsides/downsides of waterbased versus
      > oil based cutting lubes? Which ones do you guys like?
      >

      What you're really talking about is coolant as opposed to cutting oil. For
      flood cooling, the water based oils are generally used. Many home users apply
      smaller amounts by brush, and there the straight cutting oils are fine.

      John Martin


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Charle B Vincent
      For years I have just used an old style trigger pump oil can with cutting fluid in it as needed. At the speeds and feeds I like, it is fine. I just got an
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 2, 2004
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        For years I have just used an old style trigger pump oil can with
        cutting fluid in it as needed. At the speeds and feeds I like, it is
        fine. I just got an old valve grinder with a flood coolant system and
        I will say it is awfully nice. Has me thinking about building one for
        my lathe. I have a bunch of old pumps around here and also got several
        new automotive oil pumps with the grinder deal that I could adapt. I
        am thinking about it, but it is a mess.


        Charles

        jmartin957@... wrote:

        >In a message dated 9/2/2004 2:34:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        >jgourlay@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>Toxicity aside, what are the upsides/downsides of waterbased versus
        >>oil based cutting lubes? Which ones do you guys like?
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >What you're really talking about is coolant as opposed to cutting oil. For
        >flood cooling, the water based oils are generally used. Many home users apply
        >smaller amounts by brush, and there the straight cutting oils are fine.
        >
        >John Martin
        >
        >
        >
      • Jon Elson
        ... I had a Phase-II 100-series QC, compatible with Aloris and Dorian AXA size. I was VERY happy with it, and used it on a 10 Atlas, then moved it to my 12
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 2, 2004
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          joegourlay wrote:

          >Gents, talk to me please about qc toolposts for the 12". First, are
          >there places to buy them for a reasonable price? I've seen some on
          >ebay, but haven't won any. I've also looked on the web at some
          >places that sell new parts (like taper attachments) for these lathes
          >and prices where astounding, so I'm hoping I'm looking in the wrong
          >spot.
          >
          >
          I had a Phase-II 100-series QC, compatible with Aloris and Dorian AXA
          size. I was VERY happy with it, and used it on a 10" Atlas, then moved it
          to my 12" when I upgraded. I now have upgraded to a 15" Sheldon lathe,
          and have a 250-series (CXA compatible) post. It is obviously also made
          by Phase-II, but sold under the Dayton Electric Motor label.

          >Second, what to look for? I was looking through MSC and saw that
          >most tools were ½" bar, but they had some in 3/8" bar. Is it better
          >to use the small or standard size on these lathes? Also, I want to
          >follow the strategy someone here mentioned earlier of buying inserts
          >off ebay, so I want to accommodate what I'm likely to find.
          >
          >
          I'd go with 1/4" IC (inscribed circle) inserts on a 3/8" holder. I used
          these
          with the 10 and 12" Atlas machines for many years with excellent results.
          The smaller carbides are cheaper, and you can't really hog in with a big
          carbide on these lathes, anyway. The positive-rake inserts with the molded-
          in chipbreaker (it really doesn't break chips much, but does provide the
          positive rake) are probably the best all-around cutter. Don't bother with
          coated inserts, they really don't buy much on the low powered lathes.

          >Also, I want to primarily use carbide where possible. I already
          >spend WAY too high a percentage of my garage time sharpening A2
          >plane irons and chisels, as well as Jap chisels, carving tools etc…
          >To the extent I can avoid using HSS tooling, I'd like to. What
          >other considerations are there in a QC toolpost I need to look at?
          >
          >Can you guys help me decide on which tooling I need to look at
          >buying first? The things I know I'll need to do right off the bat
          >are:
          >
          >1. machine a back plate for a 4 jaw chuck (need to get one of
          >each of those too).
          >
          You might want to get some C-6 zero-rake cutters for this job. Expect it to
          eat one insert if you have much metal to remove.

          >2. Machine bench dogs. These will be from 4" to 6" long, with
          >the main shank being about 21/32" dia, and .25" top cap 7/8" dia.
          >The top cap, .25" thick, will have a flat angled back about 2 deg
          >which I'm hoping I can do w/the milling attachment. If not, I can
          >file it. The angled flat makes the dog assume the correct
          >orientation when the tail vise applies pressure. Material will be
          >either a copper blank cast to near net shape, or 7/8" brass rod.
          >3. Some wood work, but of course the tools for this are off
          >topic here.
          >
          >What tooling/inserts should I look at for 1&2?
          >
          >Lastly, cutting fluids/lubricants/corrosion inhibitors: I plan on
          >using an old aquarium sump pump I have laying around as the basis of
          >a cutting fluid system for when I'm doing metal. Delivering the
          >fluid, filtering out the chips, and collecting the fluid I can
          >figure out. What I need help with is choosing a fluid. I need
          >something (or an additive) that will help prevent rust, compatible
          >with ferrous and non-ferrous, and (really important) that won't grow
          >mold/bacteria. But, most important above all other
          >considerations, is the lowest possible toxicity.
          >
          >
          I'm not sure a flood system is very practical on an Atlas machine. In
          general,
          it doesn't have enough power to really heat things up, and you have to
          be REAL
          careful about what gets under the carriage. I have a special procedure for
          getting water out from under the movable jaw on my milling vise, but that is
          a lot less critical than getting water under the carriage where it will
          start eating
          the lathe bed! A pure oil system won't grow anything, and is probably
          not too toxic.
          But, it is HAZMAT, so you may have trouble getting rid of it. Water
          based coolants
          have a tendency to grow stuff, especially if not used for a while. You
          can just let old
          (water-based) coolant evaporate, and the remains should be easily
          disposable.
          I used some stuff made by Engineered Lubricants, a local outfit, and it
          worked
          MUCH better than any other coolant concentrate I tried, as well as not
          growing
          stuff for months!

          >I've got a mini-me running around the shop. He gets into everything
          >that's not under lock and key and it's hit or miss getting him to
          >wash his hands before running inside to eat an orange. I can keep
          >him from splashing around in the fluid, but inevitably when I'm not
          >looking he'll pull a stool over to the lathe and handle this and
          >that getting on his hands whatever is coating the equipment. I'm
          >sure as well that he'll cut himself on chips every once in a while,
          >thus the emphasis on no microbial growth (infection).
          >
          Well, if you do steel, especially milling, you will get hair-thin and
          even thinner
          needle-like slivers. If you handle the workpiece, the chips, the
          machine, the
          cutting tools, etc. you get these all over you, and they start digging
          in. Very
          nasty, and you have to dig them out with exacto knives, or at least that
          is my
          preferred way to get them out. A royal pain! I'd hate to have to dig
          these out
          of a screaming kid's hands!

          Long lathe chips are really dangerous, they can act like razor wire, and
          even though
          I know about it, I get cut every few years by one, just shoving a wad of
          them in
          the trash. They can cut amazingly deep into your hands, so beware.

          Jon
        • Jon Elson
          ... No, not at all. They come in sizes. The 100 - AXA size is good for 10 to 12 lathes. There is a special model that has been made for 6 lathes. The 200
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 2, 2004
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            joegourlay wrote:

            >Do all QC tool holders interface with all lathes? How do I do know
            >itwill fit on my lathe?
            >
            >
            No, not at all. They come in sizes. The 100 - AXA size is good for 10
            to 12"
            lathes. There is a special model that has been made for 6" lathes.
            The 200 and up, and BXA and up sizes are for larger and larger lathes.

            If you have a late Atlas or Craftsman 12" with the 1/2" thick bed ways
            andf the "square" compound, the 100 or AXA is a perfect fit. (You still
            have to mill the T-nut to fit your T-slot in the compound.)

            If you have the early 12", that is mostly a 10" with taller head- and
            tailstock,
            and the "rounded" compound, then you need to put a small spacer under
            the post. A 1/8" thick washer does pretty good. Or, you can grind down
            a little bit of the 'hump" on the compound to clear the QC post.

            Jon
          • darren
            I find they stop cutting when they reach BONE.:-) Thank You ................................ www.12voltguy.com SeaBass44/~Darren ...
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 2, 2004
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              I find they stop cutting when they reach BONE.:-)
              Thank You
              ................................
              www.12voltguy.com
              SeaBass44/~Darren


              >
              > Long lathe chips are really dangerous,.............................


              ...................................................... They can cut
              amazingly deep into your hands, so beware.
              >
              > Jon

              >
            • n5kzw
              ... I have not yet installed a flood cooling system on the 618 lathe or the 4x6 bandsaw, but they are on the list of things I m fixin to do. For the flood
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 3, 2004
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                --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, "joegourlay" <jgourlay@m...>
                wrote:
                > Gents, talk to me please about qc toolposts for the 12". First, are
                > there places to buy them for a reasonable price? I've seen some on
                > ebay, but haven't won any. I've also looked on the web at some
                > places that sell new parts (like taper attachments) for these lathes
                > and prices where astounding, so I'm hoping I'm looking in the wrong
                > spot.
                >
                > Second, what to look for? I was looking through MSC and saw that
                > most tools were ½" bar, but they had some in 3/8" bar. Is it better
                > to use the small or standard size on these lathes? Also, I want to
                > follow the strategy someone here mentioned earlier of buying inserts
                > off ebay, so I want to accommodate what I'm likely to find.
                >
                > Also, I want to primarily use carbide where possible. I already
                > spend WAY too high a percentage of my garage time sharpening A2
                > plane irons and chisels, as well as Jap chisels, carving tools etc…
                > To the extent I can avoid using HSS tooling, I'd like to. What
                > other considerations are there in a QC toolpost I need to look at?
                >
                > Can you guys help me decide on which tooling I need to look at
                > buying first? The things I know I'll need to do right off the bat
                > are:
                >
                > 1. machine a back plate for a 4 jaw chuck (need to get one of
                > each of those too).
                > 2. Machine bench dogs. These will be from 4" to 6" long, with
                > the main shank being about 21/32" dia, and .25" top cap 7/8" dia.
                > The top cap, .25" thick, will have a flat angled back about 2 deg
                > which I'm hoping I can do w/the milling attachment. If not, I can
                > file it. The angled flat makes the dog assume the correct
                > orientation when the tail vise applies pressure. Material will be
                > either a copper blank cast to near net shape, or 7/8" brass rod.
                > 3. Some wood work, but of course the tools for this are off
                > topic here.
                >
                > What tooling/inserts should I look at for 1&2?
                >
                > Lastly, cutting fluids/lubricants/corrosion inhibitors: I plan on
                > using an old aquarium sump pump I have laying around as the basis of
                > a cutting fluid system for when I'm doing metal. Delivering the
                > fluid, filtering out the chips, and collecting the fluid I can
                > figure out. What I need help with is choosing a fluid. I need
                > something (or an additive) that will help prevent rust, compatible
                > with ferrous and non-ferrous, and (really important) that won't grow
                > mold/bacteria. But, most important above all other
                > considerations, is the lowest possible toxicity.

                I have not yet installed a flood cooling system on the 618 lathe or
                the 4x6 bandsaw, but they are on the list of things I'm fixin to do.
                For the flood coolant system on the knee mill, I use a 50/50 mixture
                of tractor hydraulic oil and paint thinner. This mixture was
                recommended by one of the respected contributors on the
                rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup several years ago.

                I did not want to use a water-based coolant because I don't like the
                idea of using water on precision equipment, the idea of growing mold
                is unattractive, and I want to minimize the amount of moisture in the
                shop. (That is feasible in this part of Texas.)

                The lathe and the mill are always kept under a cover when not in use,
                because the dust from the woodworking equipment gets into everything.

                Good luck,
                Ed Bailen - Lake Travis, TX
                >
                > I've got a mini-me running around the shop. He gets into everything
                > that's not under lock and key and it's hit or miss getting him to
                > wash his hands before running inside to eat an orange. I can keep
                > him from splashing around in the fluid, but inevitably when I'm not
                > looking he'll pull a stool over to the lathe and handle this and
                > that getting on his hands whatever is coating the equipment. I'm
                > sure as well that he'll cut himself on chips every once in a while,
                > thus the emphasis on no microbial growth (infection). I see some
                > things in MSC like Astrolube LB-2000 and LB-3000 that look like
                > candidates, but I can't tell for sure.
                >
                > Thanks gents for all your help so far! I can't want until the thing
                > actually gets here and I can start making things!
              • Frank Perdicaro
                For me the Phase II QC system has worked well. If you have a mill you can mill the bottom nut to fit well in your cross slide. Also with a mill you can
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 3, 2004
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                  For me the Phase II QC system has worked well. If you have a mill
                  you can mill the bottom "nut" to fit well in your cross slide. Also
                  with a
                  mill you can cut the bottom of the Phase II QC block so it is a light
                  press fit in the cross slide. Also I have been using the Phase II
                  insert tooling. For solid cuts it great -- lots of speed and good
                  surface
                  finish. For interrupted cuts, the inserts just break.

                  For brass I have used HSS mounted in the QC.

                  Although nobody has done it (to my knowledge) it should be possible to
                  cast in concrete a combination drip pan, chip pan, bench top, stiffener
                  and coolant recovery setup. Make something 4" thick with a built-in
                  drain, proper slope, and through-holes to mount bolts. With such a
                  setup you could mount the coolant sump right to the bottom of the
                  pan/bench. If you use a casette-style "black water" tank for a small
                  RV, the whole thing would be pretty much enclosed. Such a setup
                  requires a stout stand, but also permits the use of a drop-on cover. I
                  have
                  been leaning toward a 3/4" EMT frame covered with the corregated
                  clear plastic roof available at Home Depot.

                  > Subject: QC holders, tooling, lubricants--schooling please!
                  >
                  > Gents, talk to me please about qc toolposts for the 12". First, are
                  > there places to buy them for a reasonable price? I've seen some on
                  > ebay, but haven't won any. I've also looked on the web at some
                  > places that sell new parts (like taper attachments) for these lathes
                  > and prices where astounding, so I'm hoping I'm looking in the wrong
                  > spot.
                  >
                  > Second, what to look for? I was looking through MSC and saw that
                  > most tools were ½" bar, but they had some in 3/8" bar. Is it better
                  > to use the small or standard size on these lathes? Also, I want to
                  > follow the strategy someone here mentioned earlier of buying inserts
                  > off ebay, so I want to accommodate what I'm likely to find.
                  >
                  > Also, I want to primarily use carbide where possible. I already
                  > spend WAY too high a percentage of my garage time sharpening A2
                  > plane irons and chisels, as well as Jap chisels, carving tools etc…
                  > To the extent I can avoid using HSS tooling, I'd like to. What
                  > other considerations are there in a QC toolpost I need to look at?
                  >
                  > Can you guys help me decide on which tooling I need to look at
                  > buying first? The things I know I'll need to do right off the bat
                  > are:
                  >
                  > 1. machine a back plate for a 4 jaw chuck (need to get one of
                  > each of those too).
                  > 2. Machine bench dogs. These will be from 4" to 6" long, with
                  > the main shank being about 21/32" dia, and .25" top cap 7/8" dia.
                  > The top cap, .25" thick, will have a flat angled back about 2 deg
                  > which I'm hoping I can do w/the milling attachment. If not, I can
                  > file it. The angled flat makes the dog assume the correct
                  > orientation when the tail vise applies pressure. Material will be
                  > either a copper blank cast to near net shape, or 7/8" brass rod.
                  > 3. Some wood work, but of course the tools for this are off
                  > topic here.
                  >
                  > What tooling/inserts should I look at for 1&2?
                  >
                  > Lastly, cutting fluids/lubricants/corrosion inhibitors: I plan on
                  > using an old aquarium sump pump I have laying around as the basis of
                  > a cutting fluid system for when I'm doing metal. Delivering the
                  > fluid, filtering out the chips, and collecting the fluid I can
                  > figure out. What I need help with is choosing a fluid. I need
                  > something (or an additive) that will help prevent rust, compatible
                  > with ferrous and non-ferrous, and (really important) that won't grow
                  > mold/bacteria. But, most important above all other
                  > considerations, is the lowest possible toxicity.
                  >
                  > I've got a mini-me running around the shop. He gets into everything
                  > that's not under lock and key and it's hit or miss getting him to
                  > wash his hands before running inside to eat an orange. I can keep
                  > him from splashing around in the fluid, but inevitably when I'm not
                  > looking he'll pull a stool over to the lathe and handle this and
                  > that getting on his hands whatever is coating the equipment. I'm
                  > sure as well that he'll cut himself on chips every once in a while,
                  > thus the emphasis on no microbial growth (infection). I see some
                  > things in MSC like Astrolube LB-2000 and LB-3000 that look like
                  > candidates, but I can't tell for sure.
                  >
                  > Thanks gents for all your help so far! I can't want until the thing
                  > actually gets here and I can start making things!
                  >
                • Jon Elson
                  ... The better-quality inserts are much tougher. I use indexable carbide on interrupted cuts all the time, and unless I go crazy with the feedrate, they don t
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 3, 2004
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                    Frank Perdicaro wrote:

                    >For me the Phase II QC system has worked well. If you have a mill
                    >you can mill the bottom "nut" to fit well in your cross slide. Also
                    >with a
                    >mill you can cut the bottom of the Phase II QC block so it is a light
                    >press fit in the cross slide. Also I have been using the Phase II
                    >insert tooling. For solid cuts it great -- lots of speed and good
                    >surface
                    >finish. For interrupted cuts, the inserts just break.
                    >
                    >
                    The better-quality inserts are much tougher. I use indexable carbide
                    on interrupted cuts all the time, and unless I go crazy with the feedrate,
                    they don't break. I actually broke the front off one of the 3/8" holders
                    on a heavy cut, it cracked right across the screw hole. The insert survived
                    with no visible damage!

                    I took that as a sign that I should upgrade to 1/2" holders to go with
                    my larger
                    and much stiffer Sheldon 15" lathe. I haven't broken one of those holders,
                    yet!

                    Jon
                  • Alan Barnett
                    I think it is well worth a look at the thread in...... rec.crafts.metalworking Subject: Re: do you use coolant? By the late Robert Bastow
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 7, 2004
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                      I think it is well worth a look at the thread in......
                      rec.crafts.metalworking
                      Subject: Re: do you use coolant?

                      By the late Robert Bastow
                      http://yarchive.net/metal/coolant.html

                      There are a few names you might recognise there !

                      Regards
                      Alan


                      Lastly, cutting fluids/lubricants/corrosion inhibitors: I plan on
                      using an old aquarium sump pump I have laying around as the basis of
                      a cutting fluid system for when I'm doing metal. Delivering the
                      fluid, filtering out the chips, and collecting the fluid I can
                      figure out. What I need help with is choosing a fluid. I need
                      something (or an additive) that will help prevent rust, compatible
                      with ferrous and non-ferrous, and (really important) that won't grow
                      mold/bacteria. But, most important above all other
                      considerations, is the lowest possible toxicity.

                      I've got a mini-me running around the shop. He gets into everything
                      that's not under lock and key and it's hit or miss getting him to
                      wash his hands before running inside to eat an orange. I can keep
                      him from splashing around in the fluid, but inevitably when I'm not
                      looking he'll pull a stool over to the lathe and handle this and
                      that getting on his hands whatever is coating the equipment. I'm
                      sure as well that he'll cut himself on chips every once in a while,
                      thus the emphasis on no microbial growth (infection). I see some
                      things in MSC like Astrolube LB-2000 and LB-3000 that look like
                      candidates, but I can't tell for sure.
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