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Re: [atlas_craftsman] Step- Up Transformers

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  • LouD31M066@aol.com
    Will your local power company supply three phase power to you? Never know unless you ask. If so under what conditions and at what cost? Louis [Non-text
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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      Will your local power company supply three phase power to you?
      Never know unless you ask. If so under what conditions and at what cost?
      Louis



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rigrac
      Lou: Haven t actually checked with local Power Company but from past experiences it is worse than dealing with Federal Government. Wanted them to move their
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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        Lou:

        Haven't actually checked with local Power Company but from past experiences
        it is worse than dealing with Federal Government. Wanted them to move their
        Utility pole situated in middle of my driveway ( this was due to addition of
        second garage ) and am still haggling over $5000 cost. I am wondering if
        being in a residential survey 3 Phase 220V power is available ?


        Ron
      • LouD31M066@aol.com
        Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be something to it. Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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          Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be something
          to it.
          Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
          utility wanted
          arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might talk to
          local
          electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was dropped and
          question became of how soon do you need service and where do want service drop on
          your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and government
          backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations where savy
          customer could
          receive either and played one off against another. I was there, saw the lathe
          and
          heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral of story is
          never
          assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some forbidding doors
          in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least effort to open.
          Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending their own
          money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve an excessive
          amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
          Louis


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Beierl
          ... http://www.phaseconverter.com/#Rotary -- this should give you a good start; google rotary static phase converter (minus quotes) for much more. Both
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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            At 06:38 PM 1/1/2004, Rigrac wrote:
            >Lastly ( this post does seem long-winded to me) I was wondering if it
            >might be Economically practical to purchase some type of a Step-up
            >Transformer that could be supplied with 230V Single Phase and output 220V
            >Three Phase and would be capable of running MANY 3 Phase motors such as
            >what I now have or might buy and add in the future. My lathe for instance
            >could be converted and I would definitely not shy away from other
            >INDUSTRIAL pieces of equipment that might be available at better prices
            >than Single Phase equipment.

            http://www.phaseconverter.com/#Rotary -- this should give you a good start;
            google "rotary static phase converter" (minus quotes) for much more. Both
            rotary and static types can be home-brewed, as the rotary is essentially a
            three-phase motor driven by single-phase and the static is a box of
            capacitors. Info should be available on the web -- definitely is for
            building static converters.

            david

            --
            David Beierl -- Providence RI USA
            Atlas 618 6"/3" lathe ca. 1941
          • Rigrac
            Lou: Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service and wiring? Wouldn t think that they would let me have two different services
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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              Lou:

              Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service
              and wiring? Wouldn't think that they would let me have two different
              services to a single family residential home. Tried to get gas Company to
              install second garage with its own meter and supply ( a long story about my
              house service coming in at other end of 130" frontage property and not
              wanting to dig up all my new landscaping to pipe over to Garage). Gas
              company said NO you can't have two separate services to one single family
              residential dwelling for safety reasons----where to turn off gas in case of
              emergency.


              Ron
            • LouD31M066@aol.com
              If you ask and they turn you down flat or quote impossible price or conditions what has it cost you? On the other hand what if they say No problem. I am not
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                If you ask and they turn you down flat or quote impossible price or
                conditions what
                has it cost you? On the other hand what if they say "No problem." I am not
                saying
                the odds are in your favor in this. Just give it a try, with the attitude
                that your request
                is a reasonable one and that you as an honest rate paying customer are
                entitled to
                a fair hearing. Being in a residential area may mean source of 3 phase is
                distant or maybe not.
                Louis


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrick Lee Rooney
                Ron, Twelve years ago myself and 3 neighbors conspired to have 4 poles removed from our view and placed underground. The process was complex, expensive, and
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  Ron,

                  Twelve years ago myself and 3 neighbors conspired to have 4 poles removed
                  from our view and placed underground. The process was complex, expensive,
                  and time consuming. Surprisingly, the most difficult agency to deal with was
                  the cable company. When all was said and done though, the total cost was
                  almost twenty thousand less than estimated. There were plenty of nay Sayers,
                  but the utilities and their contractors were very pleasant. They WANTED to
                  please us, as long as we were willing to share in the cost. I had three
                  phase brought in at the same time very cheaply, but it was already at the
                  main pole. Never know 'till ya ask! Pat

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rigrac [mailto:rigrac@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:59 PM
                  To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Step- Up Transformers


                  Lou:

                  Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service
                  and wiring? Wouldn't think that they would let me have two different
                  services to a single family residential home. Tried to get gas Company to
                  install second garage with its own meter and supply ( a long story about my
                  house service coming in at other end of 130" frontage property and not
                  wanting to dig up all my new landscaping to pipe over to Garage). Gas
                  company said NO you can't have two separate services to one single family
                  residential dwelling for safety reasons----where to turn off gas in case of
                  emergency.


                  Ron


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                • kc5ezc
                  Exactly. I have three phase power to my shop for just that reason. Local power co. and Rural electric Co-op fighting for business. REC had 3 ph to oil wells
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    Exactly. I have three phase power to my shop for just that reason.
                    Local power co. and Rural electric Co-op fighting for business. REC
                    had 3 ph to oil wells on my property (not my wells) and I told the
                    local power co. that I would just have the REC put in the power for
                    my house and shop. The local power co. immediately came around and
                    put in the 3 ph power at no cost. Give it a try. Nothing to lose.\
                    JohnBurchet
                    in Ada OK


                    --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, LouD31M066@a... wrote:
                    > Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be
                    something
                    > to it.
                    > Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it
                    up...local
                    > utility wanted
                    > arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might
                    talk to
                    > local
                    > electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was
                    dropped and
                    > question became of how soon do you need service and where do want
                    service drop on
                    > your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and
                    government
                    > backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations
                    where savy
                    > customer could
                    > receive either and played one off against another. I was there,
                    saw the lathe
                    > and
                    > heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral
                    of story is
                    > never
                    > assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some
                    forbidding doors
                    > in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least
                    effort to open.
                    > Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending
                    their own
                    > money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve
                    an excessive
                    > amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
                    > Louis
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rigrac
                    In the land of the Far North we don t have two companies fighting over electricity. Ontario Power Generation (provincial makers of power) supplies power to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      In the land of the "Far North" we don't have two companies fighting over
                      electricity. Ontario Power Generation (provincial makers of power) supplies
                      power to city and then city supplies power to residences. My only fight
                      could be with city.


                      Ron
                    • Charles Gallo
                      ... Hash: SHA1 On 1/1/2004 David Beierl wrote: ... These days, your probably MUCH better off getting a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD). A New in Box,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        On 1/1/2004 David Beierl wrote:
                        ...snip... Both
                        > rotary and static types can be home-brewed, as the rotary is
                        > essentially a three-phase motor driven by single-phase and the
                        > static is a box of capacitors.
                        <snip>

                        These days, your probably MUCH better off getting a Variable
                        Frequency
                        Drive (VFD). A New in Box, surplus (read, last years model) VFD
                        costs
                        about the same as a static converter, and you can do a lot more with
                        it, PLUS you get TRUE 3 phase, not one where one leg is a bit weak.


                        > david


                        - --
                        73
                        KC2IXE

                        For the Children - RKBA!

                        "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual
                        discretion for
                        the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self
                        defense."
                        -- John Adams

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                      • Paul Nance
                        Hello- Helped me with adding three phase power at my house when I brought getting a phase converter instead. Local power did not like that idae. I wonder why.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          Hello-
                          Helped me with adding three phase power at my house when I brought
                          getting a phase converter instead.
                          Local power did not like that idae. I wonder why.
                          Paul N
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <LouD31M066@...>
                          To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:40 PM
                          Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Step- Up Transformers


                          > Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be
                          something
                          > to it.
                          > Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
                          > utility wanted
                          > arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might talk to
                          > local
                          > electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was dropped and
                          > question became of how soon do you need service and where do want service
                          drop on
                          > your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and
                          government
                          > backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations where
                          savy
                          > customer could
                          > receive either and played one off against another. I was there, saw the
                          lathe
                          > and
                          > heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral of story
                          is
                          > never
                          > assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some forbidding
                          doors
                          > in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least effort to
                          open.
                          > Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending their
                          own
                          > money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve an
                          excessive
                          > amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
                          > Louis
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                          > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                          > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
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                          >
                          > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • lynn.chidester@xtp.varian.com
                          snip 1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3 Phase) unsnip I d suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            snip

                            1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3
                            Phase)

                            unsnip

                            I'd suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While not
                            impossible, a 1/8hp 3 phase motor is RATHER uncommon. If it is 3 phase,
                            the mfgr. must have had a good reason for using a 3 phase motor in this
                            application. Most of the time, a mfgr. will simply use a 1phase motor
                            (connected across 1 of the 3 phases) for this small a load.

                            If both motors are 3 phase, I think you would need 2 VFDs, since with only
                            1 VFD, any speed changing for the spindle motor will also change the
                            coolant pump motor speed as well. Another possibility would be to use some
                            of the motor starting techniques (used to get the 3 phase motor in a
                            converter running on single phase) to get the 1/8HP 3 phase motor running
                            on single phase, and use a VFD for the spindle 3 phase motor.

                            Last, while transformers can be made to change the number of OUTPUT power
                            phases with POLY-PHASE INPUT POWER (ex: 2 phase to 6 phase, 3 phase to 6
                            phase), these are generally specifically designed for specific
                            applications, and not commonly available nor inexpensive. And residential
                            power is not truely poly-phase power. Most generally, transformers change
                            the voltage/current (step up or step down), but not the # of phases. With
                            a single phase transformer, single phase power in, single phase power out.
                            For 3 phase transformer, 3 phase power in, and 3 phase power (or 3 seperate
                            1 phase power) out.

                            Going from single phase input power to poly phase output power has
                            primarily been the relm of phase converters, and motor-alternator sets, not
                            USUALLY transformers. With todays electronics, VFD's are an economical
                            alternative in some cases. For a single 3 phase machine (or motor),
                            consider a VFD. For several, the tradeoff involves multiple VFDs (1 per
                            motor/machine) using existing single phase wiring, or a single phase
                            converter (or LARGE VFD) and dedicated 3 phase wiring to each
                            machine/motor. The phase converter will consume some power when running,
                            the individual VFDs will not (when switched off). Individual VFDs (on each
                            machine/motor) will provide machine specific speed control without belt
                            changes or variable speed drive mechanisa, while a phase converter will
                            not.

                            Bottom line: What is going to be least expensive or troublesome for your
                            specific case? If you can get utility supplied 3 phase power (at a
                            reasonable installation AND monthly cost), and you can do the necessary
                            inside shop wiring, this is best. If not, then consider the other
                            alternatives.

                            Lynn C. (in SLC, UT) (who is weighing the above alternatives for the new
                            shop)
                          • sauer38h
                            VFD is nice but it s vast overkill if all you want to do is get your mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin. Like many before me, I
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                              VFD is nice but it's vast overkill if all you want to do is get your
                              mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin. Like
                              many before me, I cobbled up a rotary converter from surplus parts
                              and use it to motivate my ancient M-head (with a puny 1/2 horse
                              motor), and if it's not working perfectly then I'm just too
                              insensitive to notice. Schematics and photos at my Bridgeport site -

                              http://earth.prohosting.com/brdgprt/wiring.htm

                              You'd run everything - the mill, the coolant pump, and anything else
                              from the 3-phase world - from the same converter, but all motors have
                              to be wired up for 220 or 230 volts, of course. A rotary converter is
                              as close as you'll get to a transformer which converts 230 single
                              phase to 220 3-phase.

                              W. Whitelaw



                              --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, " Rigrac" <rigrac@s...> wrote:
                              > Members:
                              >
                              > Hello to all. Looking for some more advice on a subject probably
                              hashed to death on these groups but still can't make a well informed
                              decision.
                              >
                              > Recently purchased 1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP
                              Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3 Phase) from East Coast USA and still
                              trying to figure out BEST but not necessarily CHEAPEST means of power
                              supply to run it.A little background info would be that I am a
                              Canadian and will be using this equipment in my basement workshop
                              available with 230V Single Phase 40 Amp Ponypanel Service. Have seen
                              posts on RPC's and VFD's and while quite mechanically inclined
                              (Machinist by trade) have no clue whatsoever about electrical other
                              than simple household wiring. From what I can gather VFD's seem to be
                              the most popular choice but most knowledgeable members seem to imply
                              that if purchasing one get one Bigger than intended Motor HP required
                              ( does this means both motor HP's combined and can both motors be run
                              from the same VFD?).Obviously speed control is one of the nice
                              options of VFD's but when I look on Ebay at them, most but not all,
                              seem NOT to have this capability without purchase of auxiliary
                              options or if they come with this option are CONSIDERABLY more
                              expensive. A secondary question would be that if looking for Main
                              motor speed control what would happen to coolant pump speed? Can this
                              be run straight through VFD without speed control while still keeping
                              speed control over motor? What about instant stop and or reverse as
                              to both motors? Wouldn't want to reverse or instantly stop coolant
                              pump motor ( coolant motor does have its own stop/start button)? Can
                              this function be bypassed for coolant motor by running straight
                              through VFD ?
                              > I was also thinking of converting to 230V Single Phase Farm or
                              Industrial Service Motor ( About $250 Canadian ) but that would
                              require either making or buying a special Adapter Plate due to odd
                              flange size and mounting features of BP Main Motor. I can buy a
                              custom cast Aluminum adapter up here in Canada made especially for
                              this conversion at a cost of about $200 Canadian.This conversion
                              would therefore cost me about $450 Canadian plus taxes ($ 515 total)
                              so any VFD's from US would need to be in about the Maximum $250-300
                              US dollar range factoring in a 30% Exchange rate as well as 15 %
                              Taxes owed to bring across Border. Not knowing exactly what I would
                              need for a conversion Adapter I do have a 13" SB lathe that I could
                              make the Adapter on. Would this adapter be something made only with
                              lathe or does it require Milling Machine work? Obviously I don't have
                              Mill available to me now so I would have to have this work done at a
                              local shop for some cost which I could not guess at this point. On
                              another point who can tell how good what seems like the OEM BP motor
                              is (1968 Machine Build Date) and how long a service life is left in
                              it? I doubt if I could find a cheap BP motor locally ( most Canadian
                              3 Phase Motors are 220-550V ) and have yet to see one for sale used
                              on Ebay.
                              > Lastly ( this post does seem long-winded to me) I was wondering if
                              it might be Economically practical to purchase some type of a Step-
                              up Transformer that could be supplied with 230V Single Phase and
                              output 220V Three Phase and would be capable of running MANY 3 Phase
                              motors such as what I now have or might buy and add in the future. My
                              lathe for instance could be converted and I would definitely not shy
                              away from other INDUSTRIAL pieces of equipment that might be
                              available at better prices than Single Phase equipment.
                              >
                              > Your comments and ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                              >
                              > Thanks--Ron
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Charles Gallo
                              ... Hash: SHA1 ... I don t know - my VFD cost me a whopping $90, new, in a NMEA 4 enclosure - -- 73 KC2IXE For the Children - RKBA! You can have peace. Or you
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                On 1/2/2004 sauer38h wrote:

                                > VFD is nice but it's vast overkill if all you want to do is get
                                > your mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin.
                                > <snip>

                                I don't know - my VFD cost me a whopping $90, new, in a NMEA 4
                                enclosure


                                - --
                                73
                                KC2IXE

                                For the Children - RKBA!

                                You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
                                having both at once.
                                --Lazarus Long

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                              • jerdal
                                snip ... snip The Monarch 10EE is a single-phase machine, not 3 phase, the main drive power comes from 2 lines, not three. But the coolant pump is really
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                  snip
                                  > I'd suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While not
                                  > impossible, a 1/8hp 3 phase motor is RATHER uncommon. If it is 3 phase,
                                  > the mfgr. must have had a good reason for using a 3 phase motor in this
                                  > application. Most of the time, a mfgr. will simply use a 1phase motor
                                  > (connected across 1 of the 3 phases) for this small a load.
                                  snip

                                  The Monarch 10EE is a single-phase machine, not 3 phase, the main drive
                                  power comes from 2 lines, not three. But the coolant pump is really three
                                  phase, and the machine is set up with disconnects etc intended to hook to
                                  three phase power.

                                  Go figure.

                                  Jerrold
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