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Step- Up Transformers

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  • Rigrac
    Members: Hello to all. Looking for some more advice on a subject probably hashed to death on these groups but still can t make a well informed decision.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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      Members:

      Hello to all. Looking for some more advice on a subject probably hashed to death on these groups but still can't make a well informed decision.

      Recently purchased 1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3 Phase) from East Coast USA and still trying to figure out BEST but not necessarily CHEAPEST means of power supply to run it.A little background info would be that I am a Canadian and will be using this equipment in my basement workshop available with 230V Single Phase 40 Amp Ponypanel Service. Have seen posts on RPC's and VFD's and while quite mechanically inclined (Machinist by trade) have no clue whatsoever about electrical other than simple household wiring. From what I can gather VFD's seem to be the most popular choice but most knowledgeable members seem to imply that if purchasing one get one Bigger than intended Motor HP required ( does this means both motor HP's combined and can both motors be run from the same VFD?).Obviously speed control is one of the nice options of VFD's but when I look on Ebay at them, most but not all, seem NOT to have this capability without purchase of auxiliary options or if they come with this option are CONSIDERABLY more expensive. A secondary question would be that if looking for Main motor speed control what would happen to coolant pump speed? Can this be run straight through VFD without speed control while still keeping speed control over motor? What about instant stop and or reverse as to both motors? Wouldn't want to reverse or instantly stop coolant pump motor ( coolant motor does have its own stop/start button)? Can this function be bypassed for coolant motor by running straight through VFD ?
      I was also thinking of converting to 230V Single Phase Farm or Industrial Service Motor ( About $250 Canadian ) but that would require either making or buying a special Adapter Plate due to odd flange size and mounting features of BP Main Motor. I can buy a custom cast Aluminum adapter up here in Canada made especially for this conversion at a cost of about $200 Canadian.This conversion would therefore cost me about $450 Canadian plus taxes ($ 515 total) so any VFD's from US would need to be in about the Maximum $250-300 US dollar range factoring in a 30% Exchange rate as well as 15 % Taxes owed to bring across Border. Not knowing exactly what I would need for a conversion Adapter I do have a 13" SB lathe that I could make the Adapter on. Would this adapter be something made only with lathe or does it require Milling Machine work? Obviously I don't have Mill available to me now so I would have to have this work done at a local shop for some cost which I could not guess at this point. On another point who can tell how good what seems like the OEM BP motor is (1968 Machine Build Date) and how long a service life is left in it? I doubt if I could find a cheap BP motor locally ( most Canadian 3 Phase Motors are 220-550V ) and have yet to see one for sale used on Ebay.
      Lastly ( this post does seem long-winded to me) I was wondering if it might be Economically practical to purchase some type of a Step-up Transformer that could be supplied with 230V Single Phase and output 220V Three Phase and would be capable of running MANY 3 Phase motors such as what I now have or might buy and add in the future. My lathe for instance could be converted and I would definitely not shy away from other INDUSTRIAL pieces of equipment that might be available at better prices than Single Phase equipment.

      Your comments and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

      Thanks--Ron

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LouD31M066@aol.com
      Will your local power company supply three phase power to you? Never know unless you ask. If so under what conditions and at what cost? Louis [Non-text
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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        Will your local power company supply three phase power to you?
        Never know unless you ask. If so under what conditions and at what cost?
        Louis



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rigrac
        Lou: Haven t actually checked with local Power Company but from past experiences it is worse than dealing with Federal Government. Wanted them to move their
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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          Lou:

          Haven't actually checked with local Power Company but from past experiences
          it is worse than dealing with Federal Government. Wanted them to move their
          Utility pole situated in middle of my driveway ( this was due to addition of
          second garage ) and am still haggling over $5000 cost. I am wondering if
          being in a residential survey 3 Phase 220V power is available ?


          Ron
        • LouD31M066@aol.com
          Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be something to it. Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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            Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be something
            to it.
            Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
            utility wanted
            arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might talk to
            local
            electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was dropped and
            question became of how soon do you need service and where do want service drop on
            your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and government
            backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations where savy
            customer could
            receive either and played one off against another. I was there, saw the lathe
            and
            heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral of story is
            never
            assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some forbidding doors
            in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least effort to open.
            Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending their own
            money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve an excessive
            amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
            Louis


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Beierl
            ... http://www.phaseconverter.com/#Rotary -- this should give you a good start; google rotary static phase converter (minus quotes) for much more. Both
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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              At 06:38 PM 1/1/2004, Rigrac wrote:
              >Lastly ( this post does seem long-winded to me) I was wondering if it
              >might be Economically practical to purchase some type of a Step-up
              >Transformer that could be supplied with 230V Single Phase and output 220V
              >Three Phase and would be capable of running MANY 3 Phase motors such as
              >what I now have or might buy and add in the future. My lathe for instance
              >could be converted and I would definitely not shy away from other
              >INDUSTRIAL pieces of equipment that might be available at better prices
              >than Single Phase equipment.

              http://www.phaseconverter.com/#Rotary -- this should give you a good start;
              google "rotary static phase converter" (minus quotes) for much more. Both
              rotary and static types can be home-brewed, as the rotary is essentially a
              three-phase motor driven by single-phase and the static is a box of
              capacitors. Info should be available on the web -- definitely is for
              building static converters.

              david

              --
              David Beierl -- Providence RI USA
              Atlas 618 6"/3" lathe ca. 1941
            • Rigrac
              Lou: Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service and wiring? Wouldn t think that they would let me have two different services
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                Lou:

                Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service
                and wiring? Wouldn't think that they would let me have two different
                services to a single family residential home. Tried to get gas Company to
                install second garage with its own meter and supply ( a long story about my
                house service coming in at other end of 130" frontage property and not
                wanting to dig up all my new landscaping to pipe over to Garage). Gas
                company said NO you can't have two separate services to one single family
                residential dwelling for safety reasons----where to turn off gas in case of
                emergency.


                Ron
              • LouD31M066@aol.com
                If you ask and they turn you down flat or quote impossible price or conditions what has it cost you? On the other hand what if they say No problem. I am not
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  If you ask and they turn you down flat or quote impossible price or
                  conditions what
                  has it cost you? On the other hand what if they say "No problem." I am not
                  saying
                  the odds are in your favor in this. Just give it a try, with the attitude
                  that your request
                  is a reasonable one and that you as an honest rate paying customer are
                  entitled to
                  a fair hearing. Being in a residential area may mean source of 3 phase is
                  distant or maybe not.
                  Louis


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patrick Lee Rooney
                  Ron, Twelve years ago myself and 3 neighbors conspired to have 4 poles removed from our view and placed underground. The process was complex, expensive, and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    Ron,

                    Twelve years ago myself and 3 neighbors conspired to have 4 poles removed
                    from our view and placed underground. The process was complex, expensive,
                    and time consuming. Surprisingly, the most difficult agency to deal with was
                    the cable company. When all was said and done though, the total cost was
                    almost twenty thousand less than estimated. There were plenty of nay Sayers,
                    but the utilities and their contractors were very pleasant. They WANTED to
                    please us, as long as we were willing to share in the cost. I had three
                    phase brought in at the same time very cheaply, but it was already at the
                    main pole. Never know 'till ya ask! Pat

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Rigrac [mailto:rigrac@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:59 PM
                    To: atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Step- Up Transformers


                    Lou:

                    Possibly down side to that would be what do I do with existing house service
                    and wiring? Wouldn't think that they would let me have two different
                    services to a single family residential home. Tried to get gas Company to
                    install second garage with its own meter and supply ( a long story about my
                    house service coming in at other end of 130" frontage property and not
                    wanting to dig up all my new landscaping to pipe over to Garage). Gas
                    company said NO you can't have two separate services to one single family
                    residential dwelling for safety reasons----where to turn off gas in case of
                    emergency.


                    Ron


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                  • kc5ezc
                    Exactly. I have three phase power to my shop for just that reason. Local power co. and Rural electric Co-op fighting for business. REC had 3 ph to oil wells
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      Exactly. I have three phase power to my shop for just that reason.
                      Local power co. and Rural electric Co-op fighting for business. REC
                      had 3 ph to oil wells on my property (not my wells) and I told the
                      local power co. that I would just have the REC put in the power for
                      my house and shop. The local power co. immediately came around and
                      put in the 3 ph power at no cost. Give it a try. Nothing to lose.\
                      JohnBurchet
                      in Ada OK


                      --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, LouD31M066@a... wrote:
                      > Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be
                      something
                      > to it.
                      > Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it
                      up...local
                      > utility wanted
                      > arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might
                      talk to
                      > local
                      > electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was
                      dropped and
                      > question became of how soon do you need service and where do want
                      service drop on
                      > your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and
                      government
                      > backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations
                      where savy
                      > customer could
                      > receive either and played one off against another. I was there,
                      saw the lathe
                      > and
                      > heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral
                      of story is
                      > never
                      > assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some
                      forbidding doors
                      > in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least
                      effort to open.
                      > Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending
                      their own
                      > money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve
                      an excessive
                      > amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
                      > Louis
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rigrac
                      In the land of the Far North we don t have two companies fighting over electricity. Ontario Power Generation (provincial makers of power) supplies power to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        In the land of the "Far North" we don't have two companies fighting over
                        electricity. Ontario Power Generation (provincial makers of power) supplies
                        power to city and then city supplies power to residences. My only fight
                        could be with city.


                        Ron
                      • Charles Gallo
                        ... Hash: SHA1 On 1/1/2004 David Beierl wrote: ... These days, your probably MUCH better off getting a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD). A New in Box,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 1, 2004
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                          On 1/1/2004 David Beierl wrote:
                          ...snip... Both
                          > rotary and static types can be home-brewed, as the rotary is
                          > essentially a three-phase motor driven by single-phase and the
                          > static is a box of capacitors.
                          <snip>

                          These days, your probably MUCH better off getting a Variable
                          Frequency
                          Drive (VFD). A New in Box, surplus (read, last years model) VFD
                          costs
                          about the same as a static converter, and you can do a lot more with
                          it, PLUS you get TRUE 3 phase, not one where one leg is a bit weak.


                          > david


                          - --
                          73
                          KC2IXE

                          For the Children - RKBA!

                          "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual
                          discretion for
                          the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self
                          defense."
                          -- John Adams

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                        • Paul Nance
                          Hello- Helped me with adding three phase power at my house when I brought getting a phase converter instead. Local power did not like that idae. I wonder why.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            Hello-
                            Helped me with adding three phase power at my house when I brought
                            getting a phase converter instead.
                            Local power did not like that idae. I wonder why.
                            Paul N
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <LouD31M066@...>
                            To: <atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:40 PM
                            Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Step- Up Transformers


                            > Ask and ye may receive...tis written in good book so there must be
                            something
                            > to it.
                            > Years ago junk yard owner got huge industrial lathe and set it up...local
                            > utility wanted
                            > arm and a leg for 3 phase until junk yard owner mentioned he might talk to
                            > local
                            > electric cooperative. AT that point the subject of cost was dropped and
                            > question became of how soon do you need service and where do want service
                            drop on
                            > your building? Struggle between for profit electric companies and
                            government
                            > backed Rural Electric Cooperatives led to interesting situations where
                            savy
                            > customer could
                            > receive either and played one off against another. I was there, saw the
                            lathe
                            > and
                            > heard the story told to my step father by junk yard owner. Moral of story
                            is
                            > never
                            > assume something is impossible until you have tried it. Some forbidding
                            doors
                            > in life are unlocked on well oiled hinges awaiting the least effort to
                            open.
                            > Government employees (being myself one formerly) are not spending their
                            own
                            > money and if it is allowed by regulation and it does not involve an
                            excessive
                            > amount of personal effort may allow just about anything.
                            > Louis
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE LIST:
                            > You do this yourself by sending a message to:
                            > atlas_craftsman-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Atlas-Craftsman Projects list is at
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                            >
                            > To see or edit your personal settings, view the photos, files or links
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • lynn.chidester@xtp.varian.com
                            snip 1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3 Phase) unsnip I d suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                              snip

                              1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3
                              Phase)

                              unsnip

                              I'd suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While not
                              impossible, a 1/8hp 3 phase motor is RATHER uncommon. If it is 3 phase,
                              the mfgr. must have had a good reason for using a 3 phase motor in this
                              application. Most of the time, a mfgr. will simply use a 1phase motor
                              (connected across 1 of the 3 phases) for this small a load.

                              If both motors are 3 phase, I think you would need 2 VFDs, since with only
                              1 VFD, any speed changing for the spindle motor will also change the
                              coolant pump motor speed as well. Another possibility would be to use some
                              of the motor starting techniques (used to get the 3 phase motor in a
                              converter running on single phase) to get the 1/8HP 3 phase motor running
                              on single phase, and use a VFD for the spindle 3 phase motor.

                              Last, while transformers can be made to change the number of OUTPUT power
                              phases with POLY-PHASE INPUT POWER (ex: 2 phase to 6 phase, 3 phase to 6
                              phase), these are generally specifically designed for specific
                              applications, and not commonly available nor inexpensive. And residential
                              power is not truely poly-phase power. Most generally, transformers change
                              the voltage/current (step up or step down), but not the # of phases. With
                              a single phase transformer, single phase power in, single phase power out.
                              For 3 phase transformer, 3 phase power in, and 3 phase power (or 3 seperate
                              1 phase power) out.

                              Going from single phase input power to poly phase output power has
                              primarily been the relm of phase converters, and motor-alternator sets, not
                              USUALLY transformers. With todays electronics, VFD's are an economical
                              alternative in some cases. For a single 3 phase machine (or motor),
                              consider a VFD. For several, the tradeoff involves multiple VFDs (1 per
                              motor/machine) using existing single phase wiring, or a single phase
                              converter (or LARGE VFD) and dedicated 3 phase wiring to each
                              machine/motor. The phase converter will consume some power when running,
                              the individual VFDs will not (when switched off). Individual VFDs (on each
                              machine/motor) will provide machine specific speed control without belt
                              changes or variable speed drive mechanisa, while a phase converter will
                              not.

                              Bottom line: What is going to be least expensive or troublesome for your
                              specific case? If you can get utility supplied 3 phase power (at a
                              reasonable installation AND monthly cost), and you can do the necessary
                              inside shop wiring, this is best. If not, then consider the other
                              alternatives.

                              Lynn C. (in SLC, UT) (who is weighing the above alternatives for the new
                              shop)
                            • sauer38h
                              VFD is nice but it s vast overkill if all you want to do is get your mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin. Like many before me, I
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                VFD is nice but it's vast overkill if all you want to do is get your
                                mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin. Like
                                many before me, I cobbled up a rotary converter from surplus parts
                                and use it to motivate my ancient M-head (with a puny 1/2 horse
                                motor), and if it's not working perfectly then I'm just too
                                insensitive to notice. Schematics and photos at my Bridgeport site -

                                http://earth.prohosting.com/brdgprt/wiring.htm

                                You'd run everything - the mill, the coolant pump, and anything else
                                from the 3-phase world - from the same converter, but all motors have
                                to be wired up for 220 or 230 volts, of course. A rotary converter is
                                as close as you'll get to a transformer which converts 230 single
                                phase to 220 3-phase.

                                W. Whitelaw



                                --- In atlas_craftsman@yahoogroups.com, " Rigrac" <rigrac@s...> wrote:
                                > Members:
                                >
                                > Hello to all. Looking for some more advice on a subject probably
                                hashed to death on these groups but still can't make a well informed
                                decision.
                                >
                                > Recently purchased 1 HP Bridgeport J-Head machine with 1/8 HP
                                Coolant Pump( Both 220-440V 3 Phase) from East Coast USA and still
                                trying to figure out BEST but not necessarily CHEAPEST means of power
                                supply to run it.A little background info would be that I am a
                                Canadian and will be using this equipment in my basement workshop
                                available with 230V Single Phase 40 Amp Ponypanel Service. Have seen
                                posts on RPC's and VFD's and while quite mechanically inclined
                                (Machinist by trade) have no clue whatsoever about electrical other
                                than simple household wiring. From what I can gather VFD's seem to be
                                the most popular choice but most knowledgeable members seem to imply
                                that if purchasing one get one Bigger than intended Motor HP required
                                ( does this means both motor HP's combined and can both motors be run
                                from the same VFD?).Obviously speed control is one of the nice
                                options of VFD's but when I look on Ebay at them, most but not all,
                                seem NOT to have this capability without purchase of auxiliary
                                options or if they come with this option are CONSIDERABLY more
                                expensive. A secondary question would be that if looking for Main
                                motor speed control what would happen to coolant pump speed? Can this
                                be run straight through VFD without speed control while still keeping
                                speed control over motor? What about instant stop and or reverse as
                                to both motors? Wouldn't want to reverse or instantly stop coolant
                                pump motor ( coolant motor does have its own stop/start button)? Can
                                this function be bypassed for coolant motor by running straight
                                through VFD ?
                                > I was also thinking of converting to 230V Single Phase Farm or
                                Industrial Service Motor ( About $250 Canadian ) but that would
                                require either making or buying a special Adapter Plate due to odd
                                flange size and mounting features of BP Main Motor. I can buy a
                                custom cast Aluminum adapter up here in Canada made especially for
                                this conversion at a cost of about $200 Canadian.This conversion
                                would therefore cost me about $450 Canadian plus taxes ($ 515 total)
                                so any VFD's from US would need to be in about the Maximum $250-300
                                US dollar range factoring in a 30% Exchange rate as well as 15 %
                                Taxes owed to bring across Border. Not knowing exactly what I would
                                need for a conversion Adapter I do have a 13" SB lathe that I could
                                make the Adapter on. Would this adapter be something made only with
                                lathe or does it require Milling Machine work? Obviously I don't have
                                Mill available to me now so I would have to have this work done at a
                                local shop for some cost which I could not guess at this point. On
                                another point who can tell how good what seems like the OEM BP motor
                                is (1968 Machine Build Date) and how long a service life is left in
                                it? I doubt if I could find a cheap BP motor locally ( most Canadian
                                3 Phase Motors are 220-550V ) and have yet to see one for sale used
                                on Ebay.
                                > Lastly ( this post does seem long-winded to me) I was wondering if
                                it might be Economically practical to purchase some type of a Step-
                                up Transformer that could be supplied with 230V Single Phase and
                                output 220V Three Phase and would be capable of running MANY 3 Phase
                                motors such as what I now have or might buy and add in the future. My
                                lathe for instance could be converted and I would definitely not shy
                                away from other INDUSTRIAL pieces of equipment that might be
                                available at better prices than Single Phase equipment.
                                >
                                > Your comments and ideas would be greatly appreciated.
                                >
                                > Thanks--Ron
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Charles Gallo
                                ... Hash: SHA1 ... I don t know - my VFD cost me a whopping $90, new, in a NMEA 4 enclosure - -- 73 KC2IXE For the Children - RKBA! You can have peace. Or you
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                  On 1/2/2004 sauer38h wrote:

                                  > VFD is nice but it's vast overkill if all you want to do is get
                                  > your mill up and spinning the way the factory designed it to spin.
                                  > <snip>

                                  I don't know - my VFD cost me a whopping $90, new, in a NMEA 4
                                  enclosure


                                  - --
                                  73
                                  KC2IXE

                                  For the Children - RKBA!

                                  You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
                                  having both at once.
                                  --Lazarus Long

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                                • jerdal
                                  snip ... snip The Monarch 10EE is a single-phase machine, not 3 phase, the main drive power comes from 2 lines, not three. But the coolant pump is really
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                    snip
                                    > I'd suggest you look again at the 1/8hp coolant pump motor. While not
                                    > impossible, a 1/8hp 3 phase motor is RATHER uncommon. If it is 3 phase,
                                    > the mfgr. must have had a good reason for using a 3 phase motor in this
                                    > application. Most of the time, a mfgr. will simply use a 1phase motor
                                    > (connected across 1 of the 3 phases) for this small a load.
                                    snip

                                    The Monarch 10EE is a single-phase machine, not 3 phase, the main drive
                                    power comes from 2 lines, not three. But the coolant pump is really three
                                    phase, and the machine is set up with disconnects etc intended to hook to
                                    three phase power.

                                    Go figure.

                                    Jerrold
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