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  • Stephen Baillie
    Ships in Atlantis could really use a bit of balancing. At the moment we have two sets of ships in the v5 code base, the originals: Name Capacity
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 13, 2011
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      Ships in Atlantis could really use a bit of balancing.

      At the moment we have two sets of ships in the v5 code base, the originals:

      Name                Capacity    Crew    Cost            Skill
      Longboat            500         5       25              1

      Clipper             800         10      50              1
      Galleon             1800        15      75              1
      Armored Galleon     1800        15      75 IRWD         3
      Balloon             200         4       50 FLOA         5

      ...and the new ones added when fleets were introduced:

      Barge               500         4       30              1
      Longship            300         6       25              2
      Wargalley           400         6       30              1
      Knarr               750         8       40              2
      Galley              200         5       25              1
      Trireme             1000        12      60              1
      Dromon              1200        20      60 IRWD         3
      Cog                 1800        15      75              3
      Carrack             2000        15      75 IRWD         4
      Zeppelin            800         10      60 FLOA+IRWD    5
      Cloudship           1200        15      FLOA+IRWD       5 (SWIN)

      My apologies if those tables, that look to be formatted nicely in a fixed width font to me, get mangled by Gmail, which doesn't allow me to use tables.  Such things seem to have happened in the past.  If this isn't readable, I have a proper html version at http://www.shadowlandgames.com/ships.html

      This is further complicated by some silly fellow adding the possibility in v5.1 for different things to have different base movement speeds.  Currently all the surface ships have been given a base move of 4, and the flying ones a base move of 6, but that was just to preserve existing behaviour.

      Now one of the biggest problems with the new ships was that none of them provided protection in combat, nor facilities for mage study.  Admittedly, that was probably because the original fleet handling code didn't support either, but that support has been reintroduced in 5.1, just not applied to any of the new ships as there wasn't precedent for doing so.  In the old ship set, these two characteristics were only to be found in the Armoured Galleon, so that's currently the only ship which now has them.

      I'm happy to have a shot at rebalancing these, but I really don't know very much about nautical history.  Is there anyone out there who does?  Could anyone tell me which of the historical ships were supposed to be used as fighting platforms, and so should provide protection in combat?  Should I change the speed of some of them?  What general principles should apply to cost/crew/capacity/skill tradeoffs?  And if anyone can work out which ship types (if any) should support mage study (or suggest new types of ship that could), that'd be great.

      Thanks in advance,

      Steve.

    • Stephen Baillie
      ... I DO very much need help with balancing :-) As far as general principles go, I m thinking that ships that require higher skill levels should be
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 5, 2012
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        On 14 December 2011 15:19, Rob Rodgers <rdr2019@...> wrote:
        A couple of notes.

        Longboats are boats.  Shouldn't even be there.  And certainly not bigger than a longship.  I would delete the longboat and use its stats for the longship. 

        The clipper is completely wrong in that it is about 300 years later than any other ship, and totally not appropriate for a fantasy milieu. I would just drop it too.

        Not sure what the barge is supposed to be.

        The knarr and cog would definitely not be warships of any kind.

        The carrack is just an early galleon. It should be less advanced, not more.  Another option would be the Caravel, fitting in between the cog and carrack.  

        I would make the Dromon, which is just a big trireme, capable of supporting mages. 

        What would be really cool would be if you could make some ships require a higher level of sailing, not just numbers.  A galleon was definitely harder to sail than a cog.

        Let me know if you need help with balancing, I know quite a bit about ships and naval history.

        I DO very much need help with balancing :-)

        As far as general principles go, I'm thinking that ships that require higher skill levels should be consistently "better" in some way - be that better capacity:resource or capacity:sailors ratios, adding combat protection or mage facilities, or higher speed.  Larger ships should probably also have better ratios than smaller ships (currently a clipper has less capacity than two longboats, while taking exactly twice the resources and sailors, which is stupid).

        It would be nice to have a very small ship that new factions could make more easily too, maybe 10 WOOD, as initial resources may have to be WITHDRAWn from starting funds if starting cities don't have unlimited markets.  This might be a good case for having a ship with lower than default speed too; I'm not sure how much variation in speed would be appropriate otherwise (in terms of game balance; certainly there was a difference historically).  In looking at what might fit here, I ran into polynesian canoes like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokulea, which I thought was awesome :-)

        So maybe we need a couple of ships buildable at SHIP 1: a generic and not terribly efficient basic vessel, and a low resource usage exploration/starting ship.  It'd be nice if there were game niches for these even though they weren't ideal.  Or maybe these should be the same ship.

        At SHIP 2 we'd want a more efficient cargo carrier, and maybe a basic combat platform.

        At SHIP 3 we'd want a big carrier, a warship, and something that can support mages.  Maybe some of these roles could be combined.

        At SHIP 4 we could get a basic flying ship, and maybe an even more efficient conventional cargo ship and/or bigger warship.

        SHIP 5 should be a proper flying ship, perhaps with some of the other special abilities.

        There were some mentions in the 5.0 code of having some ships require a certain level of skill to use, but the code for that wasn't finished, so I ended up removing that as I wasn't sure what it was supposed to do (partly because the balancing between ships was non-existant).  If we get the balance right then it might be worth reintroducing, but it sounds like unnecessary complication in terms of gameplay.

        So what ships should go into those various slots?

        Thanks,

        Steve.

      • stabliser
        Whilst is easy to start looking for real world boats/ships to balance atlantis, its probably best not to. We can easily understand that if we introduce 50
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 8, 2012
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          Whilst is easy to start looking for real world boats/ships to 'balance' atlantis, its probably best not to.

          We can easily understand that if we introduce 50 new ships, that players will favour the cheapest, the highest carrying capacity, the fastest and the most efficient. All others will likely become redundant.
          In atlantis v4 the balance seemed to favour longboats as early scouts until wood was abundant, then Galleons, clippers were rare. Balloons as the only flying option were always built. So it seemed that clippers were out of balance with the other 3 vessels.
          Of course back then all ships had 4 Move points. and required 5, 10 and 15 sailors with 10 sailors for balloons (as balloons were flying clippers) I don't know when the lower sailor number for balloons crept into the code, I think its best if ships (especially balloons) always need more than 1 man, so sailing lvl 6 might be best as a minimum.

          If you want more types of ship to get built then some regional variation of resources might force that. IE mahogany instead of wood in the jungles might encourage a mahiogany built galleon that is bigger and slower than a wood built galleon, but for game balance getting the 4 basics right first. To me the only weakness with the v4 ship balance was the clipper, so it may benefit from 1 extra movement point ( but that might make players build only fleets of clippers )

          <pet rant> If only the items/creatures/spells/objects were in a text file, all game balance issues could then be handled outside the code, and would involve the army of atlantis fans with little coding interest/skill :)
          </rant>

          Pete


          --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 14 December 2011 15:19, Rob Rodgers <rdr2019@...> wrote:
          >
          > > A couple of notes.
          > >
          > > Longboats are boats. Shouldn't even be there. And certainly not bigger
          > > than a longship. I would delete the longboat and use its stats for the
          > > longship.
          > >
          > > The clipper is completely wrong in that it is about 300 years later than
          > > any other ship, and totally not appropriate for a fantasy milieu. I would
          > > just drop it too.
          > >
          > > Not sure what the barge is supposed to be.
          > >
          > > The knarr and cog would definitely not be warships of any kind.
          > >
          > > The carrack is just an early galleon. It should be less advanced, not
          > > more. Another option would be the Caravel, fitting in between the cog and
          > > carrack.
          > >
          > > I would make the Dromon, which is just a big trireme, capable of
          > > supporting mages.
          > >
          > > What would be really cool would be if you could make some ships require a
          > > higher level of sailing, not just numbers. A galleon was definitely harder
          > > to sail than a cog.
          > >
          > > Let me know if you need help with balancing, I know quite a bit about
          > > ships and naval history.
          > >
          >
          > I DO very much need help with balancing :-)
          >
          > As far as general principles go, I'm thinking that ships that require
          > higher skill levels should be consistently "better" in some way - be that
          > better capacity:resource or capacity:sailors ratios, adding combat
          > protection or mage facilities, or higher speed. Larger ships should
          > probably also have better ratios than smaller ships (currently a clipper
          > has less capacity than two longboats, while taking exactly twice the
          > resources and sailors, which is stupid).
          >
          > It would be nice to have a very small ship that new factions could make
          > more easily too, maybe 10 WOOD, as initial resources may have to be
          > WITHDRAWn from starting funds if starting cities don't have unlimited
          > markets. This might be a good case for having a ship with lower than
          > default speed too; I'm not sure how much variation in speed would be
          > appropriate otherwise (in terms of game balance; certainly there was a
          > difference historically). In looking at what might fit here, I ran into
          > polynesian canoes like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokulea, which I
          > thought was awesome :-)
          >
          > So maybe we need a couple of ships buildable at SHIP 1: a generic and not
          > terribly efficient basic vessel, and a low resource usage
          > exploration/starting ship. It'd be nice if there were game niches for
          > these even though they weren't ideal. Or maybe these should be the same
          > ship.
          >
          > At SHIP 2 we'd want a more efficient cargo carrier, and maybe a basic
          > combat platform.
          >
          > At SHIP 3 we'd want a big carrier, a warship, and something that can
          > support mages. Maybe some of these roles could be combined.
          >
          > At SHIP 4 we could get a basic flying ship, and maybe an even more
          > efficient conventional cargo ship and/or bigger warship.
          >
          > SHIP 5 should be a proper flying ship, perhaps with some of the other
          > special abilities.
          >
          > There were some mentions in the 5.0 code of having some ships require a
          > certain level of skill to use, but the code for that wasn't finished, so I
          > ended up removing that as I wasn't sure what it was supposed to do (partly
          > because the balancing between ships was non-existant). If we get the
          > balance right then it might be worth reintroducing, but it sounds like
          > unnecessary complication in terms of gameplay.
          >
          > So what ships should go into those various slots?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Steve.
          >
        • Stephen Baillie
          ... I m actually hoping to reduce the number of ship types in Atlantis through this exercise :-) All the ship types I ve listed here are currently in the code,
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 8, 2012
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            Whilst is easy to start looking for real world boats/ships to 'balance' atlantis, its probably best not to.

            We can easily understand that if we introduce 50 new ships, that players will favour the cheapest, the highest carrying capacity, the fastest and the most efficient. All others will likely become redundant.

            I'm actually hoping to reduce the number of ship types in Atlantis through this exercise :-)

            All the ship types I've listed here are currently in the code, and I think we have too many of them.

            As well as the cheapest, biggest, fastest and most efficient, if you add the orthogonal qualities of providing combat protection and mage support to that list, then you end up with quite a number of niches.

            In atlantis v4 the balance seemed to favour longboats as early scouts until wood was abundant, then Galleons, clippers were rare. Balloons as the only flying option were always built. So it seemed that clippers were out of balance with the other 3 vessels.

            Yup.  Clippers had a lower capacity per resource cost than longboats, so were (are) underpowered.  They might have been used as it wasn't possible in v4 to combine capacities in a fleet, but now that you can they are objectively worse than 2 longboats.

            <pet rant> If only the items/creatures/spells/objects were in a text file, all game balance issues could then be handled outside the code, and would involve the army of atlantis fans with little coding interest/skill :)
            </rant>

            Isn't gamedata.cpp a text file?  ;->

            Steve.

          • Enno Rehling
            I find that all you need is 3-4 types of boats. A cheap boat to go exploring, a fast boat to go long distances on the map, and one or two big boats for troop
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 8, 2012
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              I find that all you need is 3-4 types of boats. A cheap boat to go exploring, a fast boat to go long distances on the map, and one or two big boats for troop and goods transports.

              In our last game, we had a whopping 12 different kinds of ships, and that was complete overkill. Nobody wants to build ships that can only sail in ocean tiles that are adjacent to a coastal region, and the game does not get any better from having them.

              Enno.

              On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:


               

              Whilst is easy to start looking for real world boats/ships to 'balance' atlantis, its probably best not to.

              We can easily understand that if we introduce 50 new ships, that players will favour the cheapest, the highest carrying capacity, the fastest and the most efficient. All others will likely become redundant.

              I'm actually hoping to reduce the number of ship types in Atlantis through this exercise :-)

              All the ship types I've listed here are currently in the code, and I think we have too many of them.

              As well as the cheapest, biggest, fastest and most efficient, if you add the orthogonal qualities of providing combat protection and mage support to that list, then you end up with quite a number of niches.

              In atlantis v4 the balance seemed to favour longboats as early scouts until wood was abundant, then Galleons, clippers were rare. Balloons as the only flying option were always built. So it seemed that clippers were out of balance with the other 3 vessels.

              Yup.  Clippers had a lower capacity per resource cost than longboats, so were (are) underpowered.  They might have been used as it wasn't possible in v4 to combine capacities in a fleet, but now that you can they are objectively worse than 2 longboats.

              <pet rant> If only the items/creatures/spells/objects were in a text file, all game balance issues could then be handled outside the code, and would involve the army of atlantis fans with little coding interest/skill :)
              </rant>

              Isn't gamedata.cpp a text file?  ;->

              Steve.




            • Stephen Baillie
              ... Did those needed types include ships that provide combat protection or mage study facilities though, or flying ships? ... Indeed. I think the current code
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 8, 2012
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                I find that all you need is 3-4 types of boats. A cheap boat to go exploring, a fast boat to go long distances on the map, and one or two big boats for troop and goods transports.

                Did those needed types include ships that provide combat protection or mage study facilities though, or flying ships?

                In our last game, we had a whopping 12 different kinds of ships, and that was complete overkill. Nobody wants to build ships that can only sail in ocean tiles that are adjacent to a coastal region, and the game does not get any better from having them.

                Indeed.  I think the current code base has that problem, which is why I'd like to pare down the ship list.

                Steve.

              • stabliser
                ... Agreement here. ... I m not sure we need an armoured version of the longboat. The tightening of rules for mage study in armoured galleons has seriously
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 9, 2012
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                  --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                  > All the ship types I've listed here are currently in the code, and I think
                  > we have too many of them.

                  Agreement here.

                  > As well as the cheapest, biggest, fastest and most efficient, if you add
                  > the orthogonal qualities of providing combat protection and mage support to
                  > that list, then you end up with quite a number of niches.

                  I'm not sure we need an armoured version of the longboat.
                  The tightening of rules for mage study in armoured galleons has seriously altered the mobility of a mage school early and mid game.

                  > > In atlantis v4 the balance seemed to favour longboats as early scouts
                  > > until wood was abundant, then Galleons, clippers were rare. Balloons as the
                  > > only flying option were always built. So it seemed that clippers were out
                  > > of balance with the other 3 vessels.
                  > >
                  > Yup. Clippers had a lower capacity per resource cost than longboats, so
                  > were (are) underpowered. They might have been used as it wasn't possible
                  > in v4 to combine capacities in a fleet, but now that you can they are
                  > objectively worse than 2 longboats.

                  I'll suggest making clippers just fractionally more expensive per capacity than galleons:

                  Galleon 75wood/1800cap = 24cap/wood
                  Clipper 45wood/1000cap = 22cap/wood (used to be 50/800 = 16c/w)
                  v4 longboat 25wood/200cap = 8cap/wood (not a useful ship longterm)
                  v5 longboat 25wood/500cap = 20cap/wood (more useful in the longterm)

                  I'd actually go a step further with longboats and make it 24 wood as that reduces the number of shipbuilders required - helping the early explorer faction a tiny bit.

                  > > <pet rant> If only the items/creatures/spells/objects were in a text file,
                  > > all game balance issues could then be handled outside the code, and would
                  > > involve the army of atlantis fans with little coding interest/skill :)
                  > > </rant>
                  > >
                  > Isn't gamedata.cpp a text file? ;->

                  Yes it is, however my emphasis should have been that it was outside the code, not that it was a text file.
                  I'd like to see the creativity of the large part of the atlantis community that don't want to compile anything. I think it would lead to a larger diversity of atlantis games, and a smaller number of (well 1) different game folders in the source. In other words a positive thing. :)

                  I've been in this forum for over 10 years now, and we've gone from 20+ members to 630+ and yet there have only been about 10-15 GMs willing to run games in all that time. To my shame I have not (yet) put in the work to set up a game, but if creating variations was easy to do without a compiler, then I think we'd have seen maybe twice as many games.

                  Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing a fantastic job with the v5 code, and I'm extremely grateful for you and the others before you that have worked on atlantis.
                  By the way, anyone who thinks v4 is still the version to choose should think again. v5 is the new black :)

                  It brightens up my day when this forum comes alive (maybe I should say something you all disagree with ... hmmm)

                  Pete
                • Andrey Repin
                  Greetings, Stephen Baillie! ... SB Isn t gamedata.cpp a text file? ;- No. You have to recompile engine in order to make changes. -- WBR, Andrey Repin
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 9, 2012
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                    Greetings, Stephen Baillie!

                    >> <pet rant> If only the items/creatures/spells/objects were in a text file,
                    >> all game balance issues could then be handled outside the code, and would
                    >> involve the army of atlantis fans with little coding interest/skill :)
                    >> </rant>
                    >>
                    SB> Isn't gamedata.cpp a text file? ;->

                    No.
                    You have to recompile engine in order to make changes.


                    --
                    WBR,
                    Andrey Repin (hell-for-yahoo@...) 10.01.2012, <02:34>
                    Sorry for my terrible english...
                  • stabliser
                    ... Didn t balloons used to need 10 sailing skill and have 800 capacity? Were they considered over powered back then? If FLOA were as easy to come by as WOOD
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 15, 2012
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                      --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                      > Ships in Atlantis could really use a bit of balancing.
                      > At the moment we have two sets of ships in the v5 code base, the originals:
                      > Name Capacity Crew Cost Skill
                      > Longboat 500 5 25 1
                      > Clipper 800 10 50 1
                      > Galleon 1800 15 75 1
                      > Armored Galleon 1800 15 75 IRWD 3
                      > Balloon 200 4 50 FLOA 5

                      Didn't balloons used to need 10 sailing skill and have 800 capacity?
                      Were they considered over powered back then? If FLOA were as easy to come by as WOOD I suppose they might have been, but it wasn't.

                      > ...and the new ones added when fleets were introduced:
                      >
                      > Barge 500 4 30 1
                      > Longship 300 6 25 2
                      > Wargalley 400 6 30 1
                      > Knarr 750 8 40 2
                      > Galley 200 5 25 1
                      > Trireme 1000 12 60 1
                      > Dromon 1200 20 60 IRWD 3

                      Well I cant see any reason why I'd build any of the above 5 ships unless they were faster or built of a new resource and that resource was all I had.
                      Perhaps they were designed for a game that didn't have any of the normal ships.

                      > Cog 1800 15 75 3

                      This is just a Galleon that cant be built with shipbuilding 1 - If Galleons exist in a game this shouldn't

                      > Carrack 2000 15 75 IRWD 4

                      Better than an armoured galleon - I'd use this instead of armoured galleons.

                      > Zeppelin 800 10 60 FLOA+IRWD 5
                      > Cloudship 1200 15 FLOA+IRWD 5 (SWIN)

                      Is that either FLOA or IRWD, or 60 of each? If you part build it in 1 turn with some FLOA and some IRWD how does the game track which you still need? I had thought how to combine resources in the past and my own solution was to produce a composite first and then build objects of that - I invisaged steel girders and coal and then stopped myself getting carried away, but you could.

                      > This is further complicated by some silly fellow adding the possibility in
                      > v5.1 for different things to have different base movement speeds.
                      > Currently all the surface ships have been given a base move of 4, and the
                      > flying ones a base move of 6, but that was just to preserve existing
                      > behaviour.

                      I thought ballones used to have 4 moves also, but that all ships and ballons could have it increased to 6 by magic.

                      > Now one of the biggest problems with the new ships was that none of them
                      > provided protection in combat, nor facilities for mage study. Admittedly,
                      > that was probably because the original fleet handling code didn't support
                      > either, but that support has been reintroduced in 5.1, just not applied to
                      > any of the new ships as there wasn't precedent for doing so. In the old
                      > ship set, these two characteristics were only to be found in the Armoured
                      > Galleon, so that's currently the only ship which now has them.

                      Perhaps some sort of formula for build cost to benefit needs to be worked out, if a ship doesn't fit the formula it'll be usless or too good. My prevous post had the begingings of a formula based on wood/capacity, but if higher speed gets introduced capacity must take a hit. I'll give it some thought but don't wait for me.

                      > I'm happy to have a shot at rebalancing these, but I really don't know very
                      > much about nautical history. Is there anyone out there who does? Could
                      > anyone tell me which of the historical ships were supposed to be used as
                      > fighting platforms, and so should provide protection in combat? Should I
                      > change the speed of some of them? What general principles should apply to
                      > cost/crew/capacity/skill tradeoffs? And if anyone can work out which ship
                      > types (if any) should support mage study (or suggest new types of ship that
                      > could), that'd be great.

                      A criteria for mage study might be stability (potions spillage spoils study) So it might simply be that ships must be over a certain size to allow mage study (say 1000 capacity + 1 more mage for every 100 cap thereafter).

                      We cant expect to scour all of history and find ships developed 500 years apart in different parts of the world to be remotely balanced, its best to balance the ships and fit names to them afterwards.

                      > Thanks in advance,
                      Well we can't let you do this all on your own now...

                      Pete
                    • Stephen Baillie
                      ... I think they did, but this is what they ve been set to now. 10/800 would make them airborne clippers, which I don t think is a problem, given, as you
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 15, 2012
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                        Didn't balloons used to need 10 sailing skill and have 800 capacity?
                        Were they considered over powered back then? If FLOA were as easy to come by as WOOD I suppose they might have been, but it wasn't.

                        I think they did, but this is what they've been set to now.  10/800 would make them airborne clippers, which I don't think is a problem, given, as you point out, the relative rarity of FLOA.  While it may work in terms of game balance, though, I suspect that the reason for the change was that it offends realism to have a hot air balloon carrying as much as a clipper (at least before you get to the more complex lighter than air craft like zepppelins).

                        > ...and the new ones added when fleets were introduced:
                        >
                        > Barge 500 4 30 1
                        > Longship 300 6 25 2
                        > Wargalley 400 6 30 1
                        > Knarr 750 8 40 2
                        > Galley 200 5 25 1
                        > Trireme 1000 12 60 1
                        > Dromon 1200 20 60 IRWD 3

                        Well I cant see any reason why I'd build any of the above 5 ships unless they were faster or built of a new resource and that resource was all I had.
                        Perhaps they were designed for a game that didn't have any of the normal ships.

                        They were indeed; the default v5 setup has the new ones enabled and the old ones except balloons disabled (which means there aren't any mage ships or armoured ships by default).  Although Barges, Wargalleys, Dromons, Zeppelins and Cloudships are actually disabled by default too.  Needs work :-)

                        > Zeppelin 800 10 60 FLOA+IRWD 5
                        > Cloudship 1200 15 FLOA+IRWD 5 (SWIN)

                        Is that either FLOA or IRWD, or 60 of each? If you part build it in 1 turn with some FLOA and some IRWD how does the game track which you still need? I had thought how to combine resources in the past and my own solution was to produce a composite first and then build objects of that - I invisaged steel girders and coal and then stopped myself getting carried away, but you could.

                        60 of each.  Each unit of building requires one of each, so partial progress requires the same amount of FLOA and IRWD.

                        Cloudships were set to only require 1 each of FLOA and IRWD but be creatable by magic (but they were disabled and the code to create them by magic didn't work).  I think they weren't quite finished :-)
                         
                        The current code in git does make them creatable if they're enabled, and they cost 75 each of FLOA and IRWD, created with SWIN 5.

                        Perhaps some sort of formula for build cost to benefit needs to be worked out, if a ship doesn't fit the formula it'll be usless or too good. My prevous post had the begingings of a formula based on wood/capacity, but if higher speed gets introduced capacity must take a hit. I'll give it some thought but don't wait for me.

                        But if I don't wait for you I'll have to do all that thinking by myself!
                         
                        A criteria for mage study might be stability (potions spillage spoils study) So it might simply be that ships must be over a certain size to allow mage study (say 1000 capacity + 1 more mage for every 100 cap thereafter).

                        That's not a bad justification / formula.
                         
                        We cant expect to scour all of history and find ships developed 500 years apart in different parts of the world to be remotely balanced, its best to balance the ships and fit names to them afterwards.

                        Indeed.  In fact, that's what I was hoping to do: work out what roles we wanted to fill, then have someone who knows their nautical history fit the ship names we have into those roles.  One of my earlier posts has a first shot at a list of roles.

                        Steve.

                      • Stephen Baillie
                        ... So, to recap, a list of possible roles is: generic ship to which all others are compared low cost for starting/exploration higher capacity transport basic
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 9, 2012
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                          > Indeed.  In fact, that's what I was hoping to do: work out what roles we
                          > wanted to fill, then have someone who knows their nautical history fit the
                          > ship names we have into those roles.  One of my earlier posts has a first
                          > shot at a list of roles.

                          So, to recap, a list of possible roles is:

                          generic ship to which all others are compared
                          low cost for starting/exploration
                          higher capacity transport
                          basic combat platform
                          larger combat platform
                          mage supporting ship
                          basic flying ship
                          advanced flying ship (combat support? mage support)?

                          There might be niches for even larger transport or combat ships,
                          perhaps flying variants thereof, or ships which combine combat
                          protection and mage facilities.

                          What have I missed? Or which of these are actually superfluous?

                          Thanks,

                          Steve.
                        • Stephen Baillie
                          ... Thanks for all your feedback :-/ So here s a bunch of stats for ships, currently unnamed. Any problems with these? Better ideas? Names? Please reply to
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 27, 2012
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                            > So, to recap, a list of possible roles is:

                            Thanks for all your feedback :-/

                            So here's a bunch of stats for ships, currently unnamed. Any problems
                            with these? Better ideas? Names? Please reply to the list!

                            SHIP 1:
                            10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 5 SAIL levels, speed 4
                            25 WOOD, 750 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 3 (2?)
                            SHIP 2:
                            25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4
                            25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men
                            SHIP 3:
                            75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4
                            50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2
                            for 75 men
                            SHIP 4:
                            50 FLOA, 200 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying
                            50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5
                            SHIP 5:
                            60 IRWD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying
                            SWIN 5:
                            75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed
                            6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men

                            In line with another suggestion, I'm thinking that any ship with a
                            capacity over (equal to?) 750 should be able to support a mage,
                            probably 2 mages (if you have limited mage support turned on) for the
                            1800 capacity ship.

                            Which of these ship types would you use? Which wouldn't you ever use, and why?

                            Thanks,

                            Steve.
                          • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                            I just think that the ballon scout is missing. Something for 5-10 men. On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Stephen Baillie
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 28, 2012
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                              I just think that the ballon scout is missing. Something for 5-10 men.

                              On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                               

                              > So, to recap, a list of possible roles is:

                              Thanks for all your feedback :-/

                              So here's a bunch of stats for ships, currently unnamed. Any problems
                              with these? Better ideas? Names? Please reply to the list!

                              SHIP 1:
                              10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 5 SAIL levels, speed 4
                              25 WOOD, 750 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 3 (2?)
                              SHIP 2:
                              25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4
                              25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men
                              SHIP 3:
                              75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4
                              50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2
                              for 75 men
                              SHIP 4:
                              50 FLOA, 200 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying
                              50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5
                              SHIP 5:
                              60 IRWD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying
                              SWIN 5:
                              75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed
                              6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men

                              In line with another suggestion, I'm thinking that any ship with a
                              capacity over (equal to?) 750 should be able to support a mage,
                              probably 2 mages (if you have limited mage support turned on) for the
                              1800 capacity ship.

                              Which of these ship types would you use? Which wouldn't you ever use, and why?

                              Thanks,

                              Steve.


                            • Stephen Baillie
                              ... Hm, I based the flying ship at SHIP 4 on the Balloon, but given that I ve got a ship that only requires 10 WOOD to construct, are you suggesting that the
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                I just think that the ballon scout is missing. Something for 5-10 men.

                                Hm, I based the flying ship at SHIP 4 on the Balloon, but given that I've got a ship that only requires 10 WOOD to construct, are you suggesting that the flying one at SHIP 4 be smaller than I've got it, and require fewer materials?  If so, should there be another flying ship between that and the one at SHIP 5 in size?

                                Thanks,

                                Steve.

                              • aqwinsor
                                ... Make this 4 sail levels and I d use it. ... A raft? even at speed 2 I d use it. great for fishing in port cities. ... this would be okay. I d probably use
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 29, 2012
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                                  --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > So, to recap, a list of possible roles is:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for all your feedback :-/
                                  >
                                  > So here's a bunch of stats for ships, currently unnamed. Any problems
                                  > with these? Better ideas? Names? Please reply to the list!
                                  >
                                  > SHIP 1:
                                  > 10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 5 SAIL levels, speed 4
                                  Make this 4 sail levels and I'd use it.
                                  > 25 WOOD, 750 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 3 (2?)
                                  > SHIP 2:
                                  A raft? even at speed 2 I'd use it. great for fishing in port cities.

                                  > 25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4
                                  this would be okay. I'd probably use this

                                  > 25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men
                                  If I can produce IRWD, I think I'll go for a bigger ship

                                  I think the above should all be 24 wood
                                  > SHIP 3:
                                  > 75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4
                                  yes

                                  > 50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2
                                  > for 75 men
                                  yes, in combination with the next one up. one of these with front line troops and the other with missile troops

                                  > SHIP 4:
                                  > 50 FLOA, 200 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying
                                  yes

                                  > 50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5
                                  possibly, much more likely with speed 6

                                  > SHIP 5:
                                  > 60 IRWD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying
                                  Why IRWD? intended to have defense?

                                  > SWIN 5:
                                  > 75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed
                                  > 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men
                                  yes

                                  >
                                  > In line with another suggestion, I'm thinking that any ship with a
                                  > capacity over (equal to?) 750 should be able to support a mage,
                                  > probably 2 mages (if you have limited mage support turned on) for the
                                  > 1800 capacity ship.
                                  Yes to mage study on ships.
                                • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                                  My suggestion would be to make a ballon out of floter hides or floater hides and wood (the ballon and the basket). Also, I think that any flying ship should
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 29, 2012
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                                     My suggestion would be to make a ballon out of floter hides or floater hides and wood (the ballon and the basket).
                                    Also, I think that any flying ship should use floater hides.
                                     
                                    bye
                                    On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:04 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                     

                                     

                                    I just think that the ballon scout is missing. Something for 5-10 men.

                                    Hm, I based the flying ship at SHIP 4 on the Balloon, but given that I've got a ship that only requires 10 WOOD to construct, are you suggesting that the flying one at SHIP 4 be smaller than I've got it, and require fewer materials?  If so, should there be another flying ship between that and the one at SHIP 5 in size?

                                    Thanks,

                                    Steve.


                                  • Stephen Baillie
                                    Back to the problem of ship stats! Here s my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them: SHIP 1: 10
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 22 3:43 PM
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                                      Back to the problem of ship stats!

                                      Here's my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them:

                                      SHIP 1:
                                          10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Longship?)
                                          10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 (Barge or Raft?)
                                      SHIP 2:
                                          25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Cog?)
                                          25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men (Trireme?)
                                      SHIP 3:
                                          75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Galleon?)
                                          50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men (Frigate?)
                                      SHIP 4:
                                          25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying (Balloon?)
                                          50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 (Clipper?)
                                      SHIP 5:
                                          60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying (Zeppelin?)
                                      SWIN 5:
                                          75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men (Cloudship?)

                                      Ships with over 750 capacity can support one mage, two if capacity is over 1500.

                                      Things I'm not sure about:
                                       * the names in general :-)
                                       * Triremes are strictly inferior to Frigates.  I'm reluctant to make Triremes from WOOD instead of IRWD as they'd then be the only non-IRWD ship with a defence rating, which might make them too good.  Maybe I should just cut them out entirely?
                                       * The names for Clippers, Galleons and Balloons clash with the current default ship set.  This isn't a problem for Galleons as they're identical in both sets, and Balloons are similar enough that I wouldn't mind just changing them, but Clippers are quite different.  This could just mean we need a better name for the new sleek, fast non-flying ship.
                                       * Should the Balloon be speed 5 or 6?  It seems strange for something that just floats to be as fast as something with propulsion.  And is its resource cost appropriate?

                                      Ideas and feedback appreciated (but please reply to the list so we can all participate)!

                                      Steve.

                                    • Rick C
                                      How about corvette instead of clipper? To: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com From: stephen.baillie@gmail.com Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:00 +1000 Subject: Re:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 22 9:57 PM
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                                        How about corvette instead of clipper?


                                        To: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: stephen.baillie@...
                                        Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:00 +1000
                                        Subject: Re: [atlantisdev] Re: Let's go sailing!



                                        Back to the problem of ship stats!

                                        Here's my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them:

                                        SHIP 1:
                                            10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Longship?)
                                            10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 (Barge or Raft?)
                                        SHIP 2:
                                            25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Cog?)
                                            25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men (Trireme?)
                                        SHIP 3:
                                            75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Galleon?)
                                            50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men (Frigate?)
                                        SHIP 4:
                                            25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying (Balloon?)
                                            50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 (Clipper?)
                                        SHIP 5:
                                            60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying (Zeppelin?)
                                        SWIN 5:
                                            75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men (Cloudship?)

                                        Ships with over 750 capacity can support one mage, two if capacity is over 1500.

                                        Things I'm not sure about:
                                         * the names in general :-)
                                         * Triremes are strictly inferior to Frigates.  I'm reluctant to make Triremes from WOOD instead of IRWD as they'd then be the only non-IRWD ship with a defence rating, which might make them too good.  Maybe I should just cut them out entirely?
                                         * The names for Clippers, Galleons and Balloons clash with the current default ship set.  This isn't a problem for Galleons as they're identical in both sets, and Balloons are similar enough that I wouldn't mind just changing them, but Clippers are quite different.  This could just mean we need a better name for the new sleek, fast non-flying ship.
                                         * Should the Balloon be speed 5 or 6?  It seems strange for something that just floats to be as fast as something with propulsion.  And is its resource cost appropriate?

                                        Ideas and feedback appreciated (but please reply to the list so we can all participate)!

                                        Steve.



                                      • Rob Rodgers
                                        SHIP 1: 10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 LONGBOAT 10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 RAFT SHIP 2: 25 WOOD, 500
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 23 10:11 AM
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                                          SHIP 1:
                                              10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 LONGBOAT
                                              10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 RAFT
                                          SHIP 2:
                                              25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, SPEED 3, COG
                                              50 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, DEFENCE 2 for 25 men GALLEY
                                          SHIP 3:
                                              75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 GALLEON
                                              50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men WARSHIP
                                          SHIP 4:
                                              25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, SPEED 4, flying BALLOON
                                              50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 CORSAIR
                                          SHIP 5:
                                              60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying AIRSHIP
                                          SWIN 5:
                                              75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men CLOUDSHIP

                                          I suggested some names.  Zeppelin bothers me since it's a man's name.  Clipper is all wrong, as is Trireme. My names are a little boring but they are descriptive.

                                          I think the Galley should be made of wood rather than IRWD.  Otherwise it will never be built, as a faction that has access to IRWD will probably be advanced enough to go straight to the Warship.

                                          I slowed the balloon up even further.

                                          Rob




                                          On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          Back to the problem of ship stats!

                                          Here's my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them:

                                          SHIP 1:
                                              10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Longship?)
                                              10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 (Barge or Raft?)
                                          SHIP 2:
                                              25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Cog?)
                                              25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men (Trireme?)
                                          SHIP 3:
                                              75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Galleon?)
                                              50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men (Frigate?)
                                          SHIP 4:
                                              25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying (Balloon?)
                                              50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 (Clipper?)
                                          SHIP 5:
                                              60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying (Zeppelin?)
                                          SWIN 5:
                                              75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men (Cloudship?)

                                          Ships with over 750 capacity can support one mage, two if capacity is over 1500.

                                          Things I'm not sure about:
                                           * the names in general :-)
                                           * Triremes are strictly inferior to Frigates.  I'm reluctant to make Triremes from WOOD instead of IRWD as they'd then be the only non-IRWD ship with a defence rating, which might make them too good.  Maybe I should just cut them out entirely?
                                           * The names for Clippers, Galleons and Balloons clash with the current default ship set.  This isn't a problem for Galleons as they're identical in both sets, and Balloons are similar enough that I wouldn't mind just changing them, but Clippers are quite different.  This could just mean we need a better name for the new sleek, fast non-flying ship.
                                           * Should the Balloon be speed 5 or 6?  It seems strange for something that just floats to be as fast as something with propulsion.  And is its resource cost appropriate?

                                          Ideas and feedback appreciated (but please reply to the list so we can all participate)!

                                          Steve.


                                        • atlgizmos
                                          Here are some recommended names and characteristics you might considier for the ships. Ship Relative Characteristics capacity (CAP) defense (DEF) speed (SPD)
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 24 8:12 AM
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                                            Here are some recommended names and characteristics you might considier for the ships.

                                            Ship Relative Characteristics
                                            capacity (CAP)
                                            defense (DEF)
                                            speed (SPD)


                                            Trans Ship CAP DEF SPD AIR
                                            Fifie 1 0 4 N
                                            Ketch 2 0 3 N
                                            Hooker 4 0 3 N
                                            Collier 5 0 2 N
                                            Montgolfier 3 0 4 Y


                                            War Ship CAP DEF SPD AIR
                                            Corvette 3 2 5 N
                                            Frigate 4 3 4 N
                                            Galleon 5 4 4 N
                                            Zeppelin 3 2 6 Y

                                            -Paul

                                            --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Rick C <pixelcat@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > How about corvette instead of clipper?
                                            >
                                            > To: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com
                                            > From: stephen.baillie@...
                                            > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:00 +1000
                                            > Subject: Re: [atlantisdev] Re: Let's go sailing!
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Back to the problem of ship stats!
                                            >
                                            > Here's my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them:
                                            >
                                            > SHIP 1: 10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Longship?)
                                            > 10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 (Barge or Raft?)SHIP 2:
                                            > 25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Cog?) 25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men (Trireme?)
                                            > SHIP 3: 75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Galleon?)
                                            > 50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men (Frigate?)
                                            > SHIP 4: 25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying (Balloon?)
                                            > 50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 (Clipper?)SHIP 5:
                                            > 60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying (Zeppelin?)SWIN 5:
                                            > 75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men (Cloudship?)
                                            >
                                            > Ships with over 750 capacity can support one mage, two if capacity is over 1500.
                                            > Things I'm not sure about: * the names in general :-) * Triremes are strictly inferior to Frigates. I'm reluctant to make Triremes from WOOD instead of IRWD as they'd then be the only non-IRWD ship with a defence rating, which might make them too good. Maybe I should just cut them out entirely?
                                            > * The names for Clippers, Galleons and Balloons clash with the current default ship set. This isn't a problem for Galleons as they're identical in both sets, and Balloons are similar enough that I wouldn't mind just changing them, but Clippers are quite different. This could just mean we need a better name for the new sleek, fast non-flying ship.
                                            > * Should the Balloon be speed 5 or 6? It seems strange for something that just floats to be as fast as something with propulsion. And is its resource cost appropriate?
                                            > Ideas and feedback appreciated (but please reply to the list so we can all participate)!
                                            >
                                            > Steve.
                                            >
                                          • Paul Gunn
                                            Some of my ideas on ship names and characteristics. Ship Relative Characteristics capacity (CAP) defense (DEF) speed (SPD) Trans Ship CAP DEF
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 24 10:25 AM
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                                              Some of my ideas on ship names and characteristics.

                                              Ship Relative Characteristics

                                              capacity (CAP)

                                              defense (DEF)

                                              speed (SPD)

                                               

                                               

                                              Trans Ship           CAP        DEF        SPD        AIR

                                              Fifie                      1              0              4              N

                                              Ketch                   2              0              3              N

                                              Hooker                4              0              3              N

                                              Collier                  5              0              2              N

                                              Montgolfier          3              0              4              Y

                                               

                                               

                                              War Ship              CAP        DEF        SPD        AIR

                                              Corvette             3              2              5              N

                                              Frigate                4              3              4              N

                                              Galleon               5              4              4              N

                                              Zeppelin             3              2              6              Y




                                              On Apr 23, 2013, at 13:11, Rob Rodgers <rdr2019@...> wrote:

                                               



                                              SHIP 1:
                                                  10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 LONGBOAT
                                                  10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 RAFT
                                              SHIP 2:
                                                  25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, SPEED 3, COG
                                                  50 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, DEFENCE 2 for 25 men GALLEY
                                              SHIP 3:
                                                  75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 GALLEON
                                                  50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men WARSHIP
                                              SHIP 4:
                                                  25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, SPEED 4, flying BALLOON
                                                  50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 CORSAIR
                                              SHIP 5:
                                                  60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying AIRSHIP
                                              SWIN 5:
                                                  75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men CLOUDSHIP

                                              I suggested some names.  Zeppelin bothers me since it's a man's name.  Clipper is all wrong, as is Trireme. My names are a little boring but they are descriptive.

                                              I think the Galley should be made of wood rather than IRWD.  Otherwise it will never be built, as a faction that has access to IRWD will probably be advanced enough to go straight to the Warship.

                                              I slowed the balloon up even further.

                                              Rob




                                              On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Back to the problem of ship stats!

                                              Here's my current thoughts for a new set of default ships for Atlantis, sorted by the skill needed to build them:

                                              SHIP 1:
                                                  10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Longship?)
                                                  10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 (Barge or Raft?)
                                              SHIP 2:
                                                  25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Cog?)
                                                  25 IRWD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 25 men (Trireme?)
                                              SHIP 3:
                                                  75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 (Galleon?)
                                                  50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men (Frigate?)
                                              SHIP 4:
                                                  25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, speed 6 (5?), flying (Balloon?)
                                                  50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 (Clipper?)
                                              SHIP 5:
                                                  60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying (Zeppelin?)
                                              SWIN 5:
                                                  75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men (Cloudship?)

                                              Ships with over 750 capacity can support one mage, two if capacity is over 1500.

                                              Things I'm not sure about:
                                               * the names in general :-)
                                               * Triremes are strictly inferior to Frigates.  I'm reluctant to make Triremes from WOOD instead of IRWD as they'd then be the only non-IRWD ship with a defence rating, which might make them too good.  Maybe I should just cut them out entirely?
                                               * The names for Clippers, Galleons and Balloons clash with the current default ship set.  This isn't a problem for Galleons as they're identical in both sets, and Balloons are similar enough that I wouldn't mind just changing them, but Clippers are quite different.  This could just mean we need a better name for the new sleek, fast non-flying ship.
                                               * Should the Balloon be speed 5 or 6?  It seems strange for something that just floats to be as fast as something with propulsion.  And is its resource cost appropriate?

                                              Ideas and feedback appreciated (but please reply to the list so we can all participate)!

                                              Steve.


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                                            • Stephen Baillie
                                              ... Works for me - but then, my nautical ignorance is truly astounding :-) Could the airship be called a Dirigible then? I think the Galley should be made of
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 25 11:14 PM
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                                                SHIP 1:
                                                    10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 LONGBOAT
                                                    10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 RAFT
                                                SHIP 2:
                                                    25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, SPEED 3, COG
                                                    50 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, DEFENCE 2 for 25 men GALLEY
                                                SHIP 3:
                                                    75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 GALLEON
                                                    50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men WARSHIP
                                                SHIP 4:
                                                    25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, SPEED 4, flying BALLOON
                                                    50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 CORSAIR
                                                SHIP 5:
                                                    60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying AIRSHIP
                                                SWIN 5:
                                                    75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men CLOUDSHIP

                                                I suggested some names.  Zeppelin bothers me since it's a man's name.  Clipper is all wrong, as is Trireme. My names are a little boring but they are descriptive.

                                                Works for me - but then, my nautical ignorance is truly astounding :-)

                                                Could the airship be called a Dirigible then?

                                                I think the Galley should be made of wood rather than IRWD.  Otherwise it will never be built, as a faction that has access to IRWD will probably be advanced enough to go straight to the Warship.

                                                If I were to drop the Galley entirely, would it be better to use the Galley name for what you've called the Warship, or is that too much of a departure from what a Galley should be?

                                                Steve.

                                              • Rob Rodgers
                                                Could the airship be called a Dirigible then? ... consistency in the names, without getting too nautically obscure. Of course there is no historical precedent
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 26 9:41 AM
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                                                  Could the airship be called a Dirigible then?

                                                  > Lord no. ;)  I was trying to keep at least a tiny amount of historical consistency in the names, without getting too nautically obscure.  Of course there is no historical precedent for flying ships, so you either use 20th century nomenclature like "Dirigible" and "Blimp" or you are stuck with adjectives like air, sky, and cloud.  Hmmm, how about any of these?

                                                  Zephyr
                                                  Typhoon
                                                  Hurricane
                                                  Stratos
                                                  Bespin, j/k

                                                  If I were to drop the Galley entirely, would it be better to use the Galley name for what you've called the Warship, or is that too much of a departure from what a Galley should be?

                                                  That would be fine, the galley is pretty close to the technological warship equivalent to the Galleon.  Too bad there is no way to require a number of sailors along with levels of SAIL. A rowing ship should require a larger number of less skilled crew.

                                                  Rob



                                                  On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:14 PM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                                   


                                                  SHIP 1:
                                                      10 WOOD, 100 capacity, requires 4 SAIL levels, speed 4 LONGBOAT
                                                      10 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 2 SAIL levels, speed 2 RAFT
                                                  SHIP 2:
                                                      25 WOOD, 500 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, SPEED 3, COG
                                                      50 WOOD, 300 capacity, requires 6 SAIL levels, speed 4, DEFENCE 2 for 25 men GALLEY
                                                  SHIP 3:
                                                      75 WOOD, 1800 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 4 GALLEON
                                                      50 IRWD, 800 capacity, requires 12 SAIL levels, speed 4, defence 2 for 75 men WARSHIP
                                                  SHIP 4:
                                                      25 FLOA, 100 capacity, requires 3 SAIL levels, SPEED 4, flying BALLOON
                                                      50 WOOD, 1000 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 5 CORSAIR
                                                  SHIP 5:
                                                      60 WOOD + 60 FLOA, 800 capacity, requires 10 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying AIRSHIP
                                                  SWIN 5:
                                                      75 IRWD + 75 FLOA, 1200 capacity, requires 15 SAIL levels, speed 6, flying, defence 2 for 100 men CLOUDSHIP

                                                  I suggested some names.  Zeppelin bothers me since it's a man's name.  Clipper is all wrong, as is Trireme. My names are a little boring but they are descriptive.

                                                  Works for me - but then, my nautical ignorance is truly astounding :-)

                                                  Could the airship be called a Dirigible then?

                                                  I think the Galley should be made of wood rather than IRWD.  Otherwise it will never be built, as a faction that has access to IRWD will probably be advanced enough to go straight to the Warship.

                                                  If I were to drop the Galley entirely, would it be better to use the Galley name for what you've called the Warship, or is that too much of a departure from what a Galley should be?

                                                  Steve.


                                                • Stephen Baillie
                                                  New ship data has been pushed to the git repository! Wargalleys, Knarrs, Barges, Triremes, Dromons and Carracks have all disappeared; Zeppelins have been
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 9, 2013
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                                                    New ship data has been pushed to the git repository!

                                                    Wargalleys, Knarrs, Barges, Triremes, Dromons and Carracks have all disappeared; Zeppelins have been renamed.  If you happen to run the new code on an existing game then any ships of these types will disappear.  The classic ships will remain functional if you happen to have some in play, but you won't be able to build any more of them, and there may be some changes to capacities, etc.  If this is a problem then (a) I'll be surprised, and (b) don't use these code changes!

                                                    The basic rule set has been changed to preserve the old ship styles; if you happen to want that to happen for other games then the code snippet added to basic/extra.cpp could be inserted into your ruleset of choice.

                                                    Steve the breaker of stuff.

                                                  • Rob Rodgers
                                                    Does this mean a new Havilah game is starting soon? :) On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Baillie
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , May 9, 2013
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                                                      Does this mean a new Havilah game is starting soon? :)


                                                      On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      New ship data has been pushed to the git repository!

                                                      Wargalleys, Knarrs, Barges, Triremes, Dromons and Carracks have all disappeared; Zeppelins have been renamed.  If you happen to run the new code on an existing game then any ships of these types will disappear.  The classic ships will remain functional if you happen to have some in play, but you won't be able to build any more of them, and there may be some changes to capacities, etc.  If this is a problem then (a) I'll be surprised, and (b) don't use these code changes!

                                                      The basic rule set has been changed to preserve the old ship styles; if you happen to want that to happen for other games then the code snippet added to basic/extra.cpp could be inserted into your ruleset of choice.

                                                      Steve the breaker of stuff.


                                                    • Stephen Baillie
                                                      ... For some values of soon , yes :-) There s still a bit of balancing of summonable creatures that needs to be done. That probably deserves a subject of its
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , May 20, 2013
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                                                        Does this mean a new Havilah game is starting soon? :)

                                                        For some values of "soon", yes :-)

                                                        There's still a bit of balancing of summonable creatures that needs to be done.  That probably deserves a subject of its own...

                                                        Steve.

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