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5.1 test game starting

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  • Stephen Baillie
    As mentioned, I m starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a new ruleset. This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a workout, so will run
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 31, 2011
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      As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
      new ruleset. This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
      workout, so will run fairly fast. Turns will initially run every day,
      but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.

      Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24 hours.

      Head over to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
      details of how to sign up.

      Steve.
    • Stephen Baillie
      On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Baillie ... The test game has now been running for three years of game time, and with factions growing I ve reduced
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 6, 2011
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        On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Baillie
        <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
        > As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
        > new ruleset.  This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
        > workout, so will run fairly fast.  Turns will initially run every day,
        > but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.
        >
        > Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24 hours.
        >
        > Head over  to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
        > details of how to sign up.

        The test game has now been running for three years of game time, and
        with factions growing I've reduced the turn rate to three times a
        week. If that makes it more practical for you to join in, then come
        take a look :-)

        Steve.
      • James Tolley
        Couple of bits of feedback for you. The spherical map is kind of annoying and I m not sure it adds anything to the game. All it s really done is reduce the
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 7, 2011
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          Couple of bits of feedback for you.

           

          The spherical map is kind of annoying and I’m not sure it adds anything to the game. All it’s really done is reduce the amount of land available near the poles and break compatibility with existing clients. I appreciate what you tried to do with it but I’m not sold on it as a feature.

           

          Fleets are complicated. This probably just needs some notes in the rules on how to use them. How do I add boats to a fleet? How do I remove them? What dictates whether a boat is added to a fleet when first built, rather than as a separate object?

           

          The movement changes and addition of the PAUSE order are fun and interesting!

           

          Biblin

           

           

           

          From: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Baillie
          Sent: 07 September 2011 03:48
          To: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [atlantisdev] Re: 5.1 test game starting

           

           

          On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Stephen Baillie
          <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:

          > As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
          > new ruleset.  This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
          > workout, so will run fairly fast.  Turns will initially run every day,
          > but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.
          >
          > Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24 hours.
          >
          > Head over  to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
          > details of how to sign up.

          The test game has now been running for three years of game time, and
          with factions growing I've reduced the turn rate to three times a
          week. If that makes it more practical for you to join in, then come
          take a look :-)

          Steve.

        • Stephen Baillie
          ... Yeah; that does seem to be the general feeling. The map format was just a bit of an experiment to see if the geometry actually worked; I wasn t intending
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 7, 2011
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            Couple of bits of feedback for you.

             

            The spherical map is kind of annoying and I’m not sure it adds anything to the game. All it’s really done is reduce the amount of land available near the poles and break compatibility with existing clients. I appreciate what you tried to do with it but I’m not sold on it as a feature.


            Yeah; that does seem to be the general feeling.  The map format was just a bit of an experiment to see if the geometry actually worked; I wasn't intending to warp people's brains with it.  Fortunately the map style is a simple game flag (although one that can't be changed without regenerating the world).
             

            Fleets are complicated. This probably just needs some notes in the rules on how to use them. How do I add boats to a fleet? How do I remove them? What dictates whether a boat is added to a fleet when first built, rather than as a separate object?


            The code for handling fleets was rather messy, and smacked of being incomplete, which I suspect may have been one of the main things that brought the v5 series to a standstill.   Fleets now work, but updating the rules on that subject is still on my todo list.

            Quick answers to those questions though:

            You add ships to a fleet by having the owner of the fleet they're in give them to the owner of the fleet you want them to be in.  GIVE 123 1 Longboat

            Removing ships from a fleet works the same way, but you can just give them to any old person (or even to an empty unit).

            A ship is added to a fleet when it's first built if the builder is in a (compatible) fleet.  If the builder isn't in a (compatible) fleet, then a new one is created for the ship.

            The movement changes and addition of the PAUSE order are fun and interesting!


            I'm glad you like them, but I think they're actually rather minor changes.  The things that are more likely to affect gameplay are the huge pack of new magic items, the resource balancing and the way the new quests will affect long-term game dynamics.

            Steve.

          • James Tolley
            Cheers. Haven t come across the quests yet. I saw some reference to them in the code and they look interesting. Look forward to finding one and trying it out.
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 7, 2011
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              Cheers.

               

              Haven’t come across the quests yet. I saw some reference to them in the code and they look interesting. Look forward to finding one and trying it out.

               

               

              From: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com [mailto:atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Baillie
              Sent: 07 September 2011 15:11
              To: atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [atlantisdev] Re: 5.1 test game starting

               

               

               

              Couple of bits of feedback for you.

               

              The spherical map is kind of annoying and I’m not sure it adds anything to the game. All it’s really done is reduce the amount of land available near the poles and break compatibility with existing clients. I appreciate what you tried to do with it but I’m not sold on it as a feature.


              Yeah; that does seem to be the general feeling.  The map format was just a bit of an experiment to see if the geometry actually worked; I wasn't intending to warp people's brains with it.  Fortunately the map style is a simple game flag (although one that can't be changed without regenerating the world).
               

              Fleets are complicated. This probably just needs some notes in the rules on how to use them. How do I add boats to a fleet? How do I remove them? What dictates whether a boat is added to a fleet when first built, rather than as a separate object?


              The code for handling fleets was rather messy, and smacked of being incomplete, which I suspect may have been one of the main things that brought the v5 series to a standstill.   Fleets now work, but updating the rules on that subject is still on my todo list.

              Quick answers to those questions though:

              You add ships to a fleet by having the owner of the fleet they're in give them to the owner of the fleet you want them to be in.  GIVE 123 1 Longboat

              Removing ships from a fleet works the same way, but you can just give them to any old person (or even to an empty unit).

              A ship is added to a fleet when it's first built if the builder is in a (compatible) fleet.  If the builder isn't in a (compatible) fleet, then a new one is created for the ship.

              The movement changes and addition of the PAUSE order are fun and interesting!


              I'm glad you like them, but I think they're actually rather minor changes.  The things that are more likely to affect gameplay are the huge pack of new magic items, the resource balancing and the way the new quests will affect long-term game dynamics.

              Steve.

            • Stephen Baillie
              ... ...and a year and a half later this test game has ended, with the Cult of the Damned succeeding in their nefarious plan to drown the world in shadow and
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                On 31 July 2011 17:26, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
                new ruleset.  This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
                workout, so will run fairly fast.  Turns will initially run every day,
                but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.

                Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24 hours.

                Head over  to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
                details of how to sign up.

                ...and a year and a half later this test game has ended, with the Cult of the Damned succeeding in their nefarious plan to drown the world in shadow and ice.  The forces of light were just a little bit slow off the mark in saving the world.

                Some observations:

                Magic factions seem to be overpowered.  Early in the game FIRE dominates; mid game Balrogs do, and late game cloaks of invulnerability.  I did introduce some reliance of magic factions on trade by making item creation require items other than silver, and raising the bar on structures required for magical study, but I'm not sure that it was enough.

                Icosahedral worlds confuse people.

                Clippers in the default rule set are useless.  I'm working on revamping ships, but people who said they'd help me out with naming them have all gone silent :-(

                Despite the fact that I added quests in primarily for the purpose of giving people a way out of the game other than quitting from inactivity, only one faction took that route (and the usual sizeable number just disappeared).  I confess to not understanding this at all.

                Next things:

                Someone mentioned on this list the idea of trying a game where food is required for upkeep.  That sounds like an interesting experiment, so I think next I will run a game with that turned on, and see how things go.  If I were to do so, who would be interested in trying it out?  And what sort of turnaround time would you be interested in?

                Steve.

              • sr_zezinho
                Yes, the icosahedral world thing was really annoying. In my opinion the things that would do more to improve the game are: - Better off-game interaction: there
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                  Yes, the icosahedral world thing was really annoying.

                  In my opinion the things that would do more to improve the game are:

                  - Better off-game interaction: there should be a public forum to threaten your enemies and gloat over their defeats.

                  - Better documentation: for a new player there isn't a lot of information on how to play. A collaborative wiki format would probably be best. Information on advanced items and magic skills should be available from the start. As it is it creates a huge advantage for more experienced players.

                  - Less strict faction points. Faction points force you into alliances with factions that might disappear at any moment. To me they seem an unnatural restriction.

                  - More players.

                  As for the game mechanics I'm ok with as they are. It would be nice to be able to save named routes and tell units "GO MyRoute". I think the food upkeep idea will add too much work. It would be very difficult to feed a large moving army.

                  I didn't play enough of Havilah to try any quests. I guess I had no motivation to do it since it was not clear how to do it and what would the rewards be. Maybe this was explained before I joined. It would be interesting to have a game with Risk-like victory conditions (destroy faction X, conquer continent Y)

                  I liked the Monday/Friday calendar. When is the next game starting? :)


                  --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 31 July 2011 17:26, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
                  > > new ruleset. This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
                  > > workout, so will run fairly fast. Turns will initially run every day,
                  > > but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.
                  > >
                  > > Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24
                  > > hours.
                  > >
                  > > Head over to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
                  > > details of how to sign up.
                  > >
                  >
                  > ...and a year and a half later this test game has ended, with the Cult of
                  > the Damned succeeding in their nefarious plan to drown the world in shadow
                  > and ice. The forces of light were just a little bit slow off the mark in
                  > saving the world.
                  >
                  > Some observations:
                  >
                  > Magic factions seem to be overpowered. Early in the game FIRE dominates;
                  > mid game Balrogs do, and late game cloaks of invulnerability. I did
                  > introduce some reliance of magic factions on trade by making item creation
                  > require items other than silver, and raising the bar on structures required
                  > for magical study, but I'm not sure that it was enough.
                  >
                  > Icosahedral worlds confuse people.
                  >
                  > Clippers in the default rule set are useless. I'm working on revamping
                  > ships, but people who said they'd help me out with naming them have all
                  > gone silent :-(
                  >
                  > Despite the fact that I added quests in primarily for the purpose of giving
                  > people a way out of the game other than quitting from inactivity, only one
                  > faction took that route (and the usual sizeable number just disappeared).
                  > I confess to not understanding this at all.
                  >
                  > Next things:
                  >
                  > Someone mentioned on this list the idea of trying a game where food is
                  > required for upkeep. That sounds like an interesting experiment, so I
                  > think next I will run a game with that turned on, and see how things go.
                  > If I were to do so, who would be interested in trying it out? And what
                  > sort of turnaround time would you be interested in?
                  >
                  > Steve.
                  >
                • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                  Hi Steve... I enjoyed the game very much even though we lost. ... About that, we were a turn away from stopping the Cult, would it be too much trouble to run
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                    Hi Steve...
                     
                     I enjoyed the game very much even though we lost.

                    ...and a year and a half later this test game has ended, with the Cult of the Damned succeeding in their nefarious plan to drown the world in shadow and ice.  The forces of light were just a little bit slow off the mark in saving the world.
                     
                     About that, we were a turn away from stopping the Cult, would it be too much trouble to run the battle? Just to see what would happen?
                     
                     
                    Some observations:

                    Magic factions seem to be overpowered.  Early in the game FIRE dominates; mid game Balrogs do, and late game cloaks of invulnerability.  I did introduce some reliance of magic factions on trade by making item creation require items other than silver, and raising the bar on structures required for magical study, but I'm not sure that it was enough.
                     
                     Mages are only overpowered because of the economy of the world. In Arnos Atlantis, the cities are much larger and support huge armies (compared to Havilah), so 1 or 2 mages aren't that much against 100k troop armies. The trick here would be to find the correct balance.
                    Icosahedral worlds confuse people.
                    True!!!  They're fun but even more confusing.

                     
                    Clippers in the default rule set are useless.  I'm working on revamping ships, but people who said they'd help me out with naming them have all gone silent :-(
                     
                     Another suggestion, how about different speed ships?
                     
                     
                    Despite the fact that I added quests in primarily for the purpose of giving people a way out of the game other than quitting from inactivity, only one faction took that route (and the usual sizeable number just disappeared).  I confess to not understanding this at all.
                    I think I have some insight here, most people like to play until they don't want/can't play anymore. And by then, it's just easier to quit or just stop playing than to complete quests. To me the fun part of the game is too see how big an empire I can have, if I collect all the relics then I leave the game, stop playing and essentially lose.
                     
                    But if you could program some powers into the relics, then people would start collecting and using them.
                     
                     One note here. The relics can be used offesively also. If 3 or more factions join and gather 6 of the 7 relics needed to finish and they each send a one man unit with the relics to attack a single opposing unit (with a considerably larger number of men, to guarantee defeat) with all the relics, by the end of the battle, the "winner" has at least 9 relics and gets to "win" the game. Thereby eleminating an enemy. Was this part of the desing?
                     
                    Next things:

                    Someone mentioned on this list the idea of trying a game where food is required for upkeep.  That sounds like an interesting experiment, so I think next I will run a game with that turned on, and see how things go.  If I were to do so, who would be interested in trying it out?  And what sort of turnaround time would you be interested in?
                     
                     I would like to keep playing (currentl world or a new one), but with only a turn per week. Sure at startup, a couple turns per week would be very helpful.
                     
                    Also, could you turn on all the missing objects and items? Mythic Stables, Hermit Hut, Bank, Healing potions, Faery rings, Zeppelings, etc...
                     
                    One thing I would really love to see is the ability to build cities!
                     
                    bye
                  • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                    ... True. ... your enemies and gloat over their defeats. Probably. Wouldn t hurt to try. ... on how to play. A collaborative wiki format would probably be
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                      >Yes, the icosahedral world thing was really annoying.
                      True.
                       
                      >In my opinion the things that would do more to improve the game are:
                      >- Better off-game interaction: there should be a public forum to threaten your enemies and gloat over their defeats.
                       
                      Probably. Wouldn't hurt to try.
                       
                      >- Better documentation: for a new player there isn't a lot of information on how to play. A collaborative wiki format would probably be best. Information on advanced items and magic skills should be available from the start. As it is it creates a huge advantage for more experienced players.
                       
                       I got a lot information by compiling the code and getting a GM report of all the items. Also a few of us were able to follow the code and see how certain things worked.
                       It would be a good idea to make most of this information available. Maybe not in the rules, they are pretty big right now. But maybe in a few extra documents.
                      One for skills, another for items, objects, magic and one with technical explanation of how some things work, so as no to have to follow the code.
                       After sailing our fleet for 1 using summon wind and windchimes, we found out that it didn't move as the rules explained, so we had to go into the code and get the exact formula.

                      >Less strict faction points. Faction points force you into alliances with factions that might disappear at any moment. To me they seem an unnatural restriction.
                      The faction points are a limit imposed by the designers to limit the growth of a faction. It's not that easy to change. It's kind of like asking for more pieces in chess. You would have to change a lot of things to get it to work correctly. What's not too dificult, is to change the limits per faction point.
                       
                      > More players.
                      This doesn't depend on the game, it mostly depends on how and where you advertise the game.

                      >It would be nice to be able to save named routes and tell units "GO MyRoute".
                      Another thing that I think it would be very dificult to desing and program.
                      How do you define a route? Where would the routes be saved? How many routes per player?
                       
                      >I think the food upkeep idea will add too much work. It would be very difficult to feed a large moving army.
                      This would just be another way to limit faction size. You'd have to have a supply line to the front line troops. And guarded carefully.
                      The problem with this is that it would stop exploration. Or unless food would weight as much as silver and a scout could take as much as wanted.

                      >I didn't play enough of Havilah to try any quests. I guess I had no motivation to do it since it was not clear how to do it and what would the rewards be. Maybe this was explained before I joined. It would be interesting to have a game with Risk-like victory conditions (destroy faction X, conquer continent Y)
                       Depending on the quest, you could either produce something, kill a monster or build something and you would get a relic. But the relic didn't have any special powers or anything. You would just collect 7 and you would "win", by leaving the game.
                       
                      bye
                    • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                      Steve, 2 more comments: 1- I couldn t get my quatermaster 5 to distribute goods to regular units beyond 1 hex. 2- In the end I was getting very big reports
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                        Steve,
                         
                        2 more comments:
                         
                        1- I couldn't get my quatermaster 5 to distribute goods to regular units beyond 1 hex.
                        2- In the end I was getting very big reports 800k+ and was having trouble obtaining them with reagular web clients.
                         
                         I suggested that maybe after certain size they could be rared and sent as attachments. I have no trouble with 8MB attachments.
                         
                      • Rob Rodgers
                        Hi, I played initially, but dropped because of a bad player who made the game not fun. I restarted, but by then there was a lot of developed territory and I
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                          Hi,

                          I played initially, but dropped because of a bad player who made the game not fun.  I restarted, but by then there was a lot of developed territory and I felt like a rat in the walls.

                          The quests do need to mean more than just collecting.  The items should do something.

                          I hated the icosahedral world. :)

                          My contribution to the ship discussion was that there should be combat ships and transport ships, fast ships and slow ships.  Names are easy, once the types are defined.

                          I would play in the next game, food or no food.  Twice a week is good, once a week takes forever to get going.

                          Rob


                          On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                           

                          On 31 July 2011 17:26, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                          As mentioned, I'm starting a test game using the 5.1 code base, with a
                          new ruleset.  This is intended to give the 5.1 codebase a bit of a
                          workout, so will run fairly fast.  Turns will initially run every day,
                          but I'll probably move that back to three times a week after a while.

                          Turns will run at 5PM AEST, with the first one to run in just under 24 hours.

                          Head over  to http://www.shadowlandgames.com for the rules, and
                          details of how to sign up.

                          ...and a year and a half later this test game has ended, with the Cult of the Damned succeeding in their nefarious plan to drown the world in shadow and ice.  The forces of light were just a little bit slow off the mark in saving the world.

                          Some observations:

                          Magic factions seem to be overpowered.  Early in the game FIRE dominates; mid game Balrogs do, and late game cloaks of invulnerability.  I did introduce some reliance of magic factions on trade by making item creation require items other than silver, and raising the bar on structures required for magical study, but I'm not sure that it was enough.

                          Icosahedral worlds confuse people.

                          Clippers in the default rule set are useless.  I'm working on revamping ships, but people who said they'd help me out with naming them have all gone silent :-(

                          Despite the fact that I added quests in primarily for the purpose of giving people a way out of the game other than quitting from inactivity, only one faction took that route (and the usual sizeable number just disappeared).  I confess to not understanding this at all.

                          Next things:

                          Someone mentioned on this list the idea of trying a game where food is required for upkeep.  That sounds like an interesting experiment, so I think next I will run a game with that turned on, and see how things go.  If I were to do so, who would be interested in trying it out?  And what sort of turnaround time would you be interested in?

                          Steve.


                        • Stephen Baillie
                          ... I did set up a mailing list for discussion of the game, and it was advertised in the email new factions got, but for some reason very few people joined it.
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                            In my opinion the things that would do more to improve the game are:

                            - Better off-game interaction: there should be a public forum to threaten your enemies and gloat over their defeats.

                            I did set up a mailing list for discussion of the game, and it was advertised in the email new factions got, but for some reason very few people joined it.  I'm not sure why - google groups may not be as friendly to non-gmail accounts as some other mailing list providers? 

                            - Better documentation: for a new player there isn't a lot of information on how to play. A collaborative wiki format would probably be best. Information on advanced items and magic skills should be available from the start. As it is it creates a huge advantage for more experienced players.

                            Documentation and new player guides would be lovely things.  Sadly I write documentation that is only fit for programmers!  I'd be delighted to have someone revamp the rules to make them actually helpful :-)

                            This is complicated a bit by the fact that the rules are auto-generated based on the game settings. 

                            - Less strict faction points. Faction points force you into alliances with factions that might disappear at any moment. To me they seem an unnatural restriction.

                            They are, but they're also fairly deeply embedded in the code.  I agree with Jorge's comment on this. 

                            - More players.

                            Agreed :-)

                            I liked the Monday/Friday calendar. When is the next game starting? :)

                            It depends on how much feedback I get, and how helpful it is :-)

                            I would like to make the next game use a new set of ships, so feedback on those will make things progress faster.

                            Steve.

                          • Stephen Baillie
                            ... Well, I have all the turns archived, so I could rerun the last turn (after removing the orders for the Cult to complete their task), but the more turns
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                               About that, we were a turn away from stopping the Cult, would it be too much trouble to run the battle? Just to see what would happen?

                              Well, I have all the turns archived, so I could rerun the last turn (after removing the orders for the Cult to complete their task), but the more turns that would have to be run before you arrive, the less accurate results become.  How far off were you?

                              Hm, and it looks like you didn't actually put in orders for the last turn.  I guess that just goes to prove the point: in order for evil to triumph, it is only necessary for good people to do nothing :-)

                               Mages are only overpowered because of the economy of the world. In Arnos Atlantis, the cities are much larger and support huge armies (compared to Havilah), so 1 or 2 mages aren't that much against 100k troop armies. The trick here would be to find the correct balance.

                              Well, one of the things I wanted to work out in the test game was how to make the balance better.  Would making hex resource levels (silver and/or other resources) higher help make tax and trade factions stronger?  How much do they need to be adjusted?

                               Another suggestion, how about different speed ships?

                              See my other post about ships :-)

                              I think I have some insight here, most people like to play until they don't want/can't play anymore. And by then, it's just easier to quit or just stop playing than to complete quests. To me the fun part of the game is too see how big an empire I can have, if I collect all the relics then I leave the game, stop playing and essentially lose.
                               
                              But if you could program some powers into the relics, then people would start collecting and using them.

                              If there had been more than one faction collecting relics, then I was going to start sorting the scores (which were at http://www.shadowlandgames.com/havilah/scores/, if no-one noticed) to make it a competition - who could return from exile fastest, with the best assets/time ratio, or whatever.  Then you could restart and try to do it faster, or with a better ratio.  But there wasn't much point sorting a list with only one entry :-/

                              For an open-ended game there seems to be a need for some kind of score card, so that's why I put this in.  Then I was bemused that no-one used it.

                              While the quests currently reward just relics, the code is quite flexible as to what the rewards can be.  It would be easy to add magic items (for example) to the list of rewards.  I'm less inclined to give powers to the relics themselves, as either they'd all have the same power or I'd need a bunch of different relic types.  But I guess if they did things that magic items don't currently do then that might make sense.  Suggestions?  Even so, they weren't supposed to be aids to game performance, but rather a score keeping mechanism.
                               
                              One note here. The relics can be used offesively also. If 3 or more factions join and gather 6 of the 7 relics needed to finish and they each send a one man unit with the relics to attack a single opposing unit (with a considerably larger number of men, to guarantee defeat) with all the relics, by the end of the battle, the "winner" has at least 9 relics and gets to "win" the game. Thereby eleminating an enemy. Was this part of the desing?

                              This actually can't happen.  Relics are set to never be included in combat spoils (the reason for that was so that they couldn't be taken by force, but it also eliminates this tactic).

                              Also, could you turn on all the missing objects and items? Mythic Stables, Hermit Hut, Bank, Healing potions, Faery rings, Zeppelings, etc...

                              I could, but a lot of them are, well, silly :-)

                              Admittedly some are sillier than others.  The resource boost ones are probably the most justifiable, or healing potions.

                              One thing I would really love to see is the ability to build cities!

                              That requires a lot more thought into how it should work...

                              Steve.

                            • Stephen Baillie
                              ... I think that s just how quartermasters work. I only turned them on to see if they worked at all; I didn t look too deeply into how they should work ...
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                2 more comments:
                                 
                                1- I couldn't get my quatermaster 5 to distribute goods to regular units beyond 1 hex.

                                I think that's just how quartermasters work.  I only turned them on to see if they worked at all; I didn't look too deeply into how they should work :-)
                                 
                                2- In the end I was getting very big reports 800k+ and was having trouble obtaining them with reagular web clients.
                                 
                                 I suggested that maybe after certain size they could be rared and sent as attachments. I have no trouble with 8MB attachments.

                                That's not a bad idea; it just needs implementation.  It should be part of the scripts that handle email and stuff rather than the Atlantis code itself - how good is your python?  I picked up enough to get JT's old scripts working, but not much more.  Alternatively maybe Anthony would like to incorporate that into Thera?  JT's scripts are on github at https://github.com/Atlantis-PBEM/Atlantis-Tools if anyone would like to update those.

                                Steve.

                              • Piotr X
                                ... That should be fairly easy to implement with JT s/Anthony GM scripts: -- http://docs.python.org/2/library/zipfile
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                  2- In the end I was getting very big reports 800k+ and was having trouble obtaining them with reagular web clients.
                                   
                                   I suggested that maybe after certain size they could be rared and sent as attachments. I have no trouble with 8MB attachments.

                                  That's not a bad idea; it just needs implementation.  It should be part of the scripts that handle email and stuff rather than the Atlantis code itself - how good is your python?  I picked up enough to get JT's old scripts working, but not much more.  Alternatively maybe Anthony would like to incorporate that into Thera?  JT's scripts are on github at https://github.com/Atlantis-PBEM/Atlantis-Tools if anyone would like to update those.


                                  That should be fairly easy to implement with JT's/Anthony' GM scripts:
                                  --> http://docs.python.org/2/library/zipfile



                                   
                                • atlgizmos
                                  Hi Steve, See my comments below. ... My faction was part of the attack coming to pay the Cult a visit. The fleet carrying the alliance members would have
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 23, 2013
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                                    Hi Steve,

                                    See my comments below.


                                    > > About that, we were a turn away from stopping the Cult, would it be too
                                    > > much trouble to run the battle? Just to see what would happen?
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Well, I have all the turns archived, so I could rerun the last turn (after
                                    > removing the orders for the Cult to complete their task), but the more
                                    > turns that would have to be run before you arrive, the less accurate
                                    > results become. How far off were you?

                                    My faction was part of the attack coming to pay the Cult a visit. The fleet carrying the alliance members would have arrived this turn and I am not sure why they did not arrive. Maybe you could look into why the fleet did not arrive, it did move two hexes when it should have moved five. Last turn the fleet moved six hexes and the turn before that it moved five hexes. I suspect that it had something to do with the timing of when moves are fully completed and the timing of completing the Black Tower. However, one would think that all moves would finish before any build or cast orders are fully completed.

                                    This should answer your question as to how far away the attack was.

                                    All of the factions in the alliance had set faction 39 to hostile and if the fleet would have arrived like it should have this past turn the attack would have happened that turn as well. Hopefully your look into it will help us to understand why things happened they way they did this past turn.

                                    To get the attack to finish you can just run the automatic orders generated from the past turn. No one would need to even submit any orders. We are most interested in seeing the outcome of the battle.



                                    >
                                    > Hm, and it looks like you didn't actually put in orders for the last turn.
                                    > I guess that just goes to prove the point: in order for evil to triumph,
                                    > it is only necessary for good people to do nothing :-)

                                    Even if Jorge did not submit orders, the automatic orders were in place and the fleet did move two hexes. As far as I can see the fleet should have completed the move to the region of the Black Tower and the attack should have happened.


                                    >
                                    > Mages are only overpowered because of the economy of the world. In Arnos
                                    > > Atlantis, the cities are much larger and support huge armies (compared to
                                    > > Havilah), so 1 or 2 mages aren't that much against 100k troop armies. The
                                    > > trick here would be to find the correct balance.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Well, one of the things I wanted to work out in the test game was how to
                                    > make the balance better. Would making hex resource levels (silver and/or
                                    > other resources) higher help make tax and trade factions stronger? How
                                    > much do they need to be adjusted?
                                    >

                                    Yes, I believe that an increase in the hex resources would help to balance out the power of mages. How much to increase the resources though is a tough question.

                                    > I think I have some insight here, most people like to play until they don't
                                    > > want/can't play anymore. And by then, it's just easier to quit or just stop
                                    > > playing than to complete quests. To me the fun part of the game is too see
                                    > > how big an empire I can have, if I collect all the relics then I leave the
                                    > > game, stop playing and essentially lose.
                                    > >
                                    > > But if you could program some powers into the relics, then people would
                                    > > start collecting and using them.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > If there had been more than one faction collecting relics, then I was going
                                    > to start sorting the scores (which were at
                                    > http://www.shadowlandgames.com/havilah/scores/, if no-one noticed) to make
                                    > it a competition - who could return from exile fastest, with the best
                                    > assets/time ratio, or whatever. Then you could restart and try to do it
                                    > faster, or with a better ratio. But there wasn't much point sorting a list
                                    > with only one entry :-/
                                    >
                                    > For an open-ended game there seems to be a need for some kind of score
                                    > card, so that's why I put this in. Then I was bemused that no-one used it.
                                    >
                                    > While the quests currently reward just relics, the code is quite flexible
                                    > as to what the rewards can be. It would be easy to add magic items (for
                                    > example) to the list of rewards. I'm less inclined to give powers to the
                                    > relics themselves, as either they'd all have the same power or I'd need a
                                    > bunch of different relic types. But I guess if they did things that magic
                                    > items don't currently do then that might make sense. Suggestions? Even
                                    > so, they weren't supposed to be aids to game performance, but rather a
                                    > score keeping mechanism.

                                    I like the idea of the quest for relics and the alternative path to exit the game. However, rather than making it an automatic exit from the game what if you were to provide a way to give the player the a choice about when they wish to exit. The way I would see this work is that players would collect relics and then have an opportunity to choose ways to cash them in for different rewards. The relics could be cashed things which would improve your faction like 1) special magic items only available via relics, 2) recon info on another faction, 3) map information (resources, gates, shafts), 4) exit the game by choice if/when the time comes.

                                    Most players play the game to keep playing the game, they do not wish to put all the effort into the game only to exit the game. I was collecting relics and had 3 or 4 collected when pirates took my ship down at sea with the collected relics. After that I gave up the effort to collect relics. I never planned to collect enough to exit the game.

                                    -Paul
                                  • stabliser
                                    Almost 10 years ago (gulp) I took the atlantis 4.0.4 rules and put them through a DTP program and then output to pdf - they are sitting in the files section
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 23, 2013
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                                      Almost 10 years ago (gulp) I took the atlantis 4.0.4 rules and put them through a DTP program and then output to pdf - they are sitting in the files section just now. If the precise details of ships and buildings were removed they'd be fairly generic atlantis rules.

                                      With the applications avalable now I imagine a much smarter looking set of rules could be produced.

                                      Pete

                                      --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                      > > - Better documentation: for a new player there isn't a lot of information
                                      > > on how to play. A collaborative wiki format would probably be best.
                                      > > Information on advanced items and magic skills should be available from the
                                      > > start. As it is it creates a huge advantage for more experienced players.
                                      > >
                                      > Documentation and new player guides would be lovely things. Sadly I write
                                      > documentation that is only fit for programmers! I'd be delighted to have
                                      > someone revamp the rules to make them actually helpful :-)
                                      >
                                      > This is complicated a bit by the fact that the rules are auto-generated
                                      > based on the game settings.
                                    • Paul Gunn
                                      Hi Steve, See my comments below. ... My faction was part of the attack coming to pay the Cult a visit. The fleet carrying the alliance members would have
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 23, 2013
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                                        Hi Steve,

                                        See my comments below.


                                        > >  About that, we were a turn away from stopping the Cult, would it be too
                                        > > much trouble to run the battle? Just to see what would happen?
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Well, I have all the turns archived, so I could rerun the last turn (after
                                        > removing the orders for the Cult to complete their task), but the more
                                        > turns that would have to be run before you arrive, the less accurate
                                        > results become.  How far off were you?

                                        My faction was part of the attack coming to pay the Cult a visit. The fleet carrying the alliance members would have arrived this turn and I am not sure why they did not arrive. Maybe you could look into why the fleet did not arrive, it did move two hexes when it should have moved five. Last turn the fleet moved six hexes and the turn before that it moved five hexes. I suspect that it had something to do with the timing of when moves are fully completed and the timing of completing the Black Tower. However, one would think that all moves would finish before any build or cast orders are fully completed.

                                        This should answer your question as to how far away the attack was.

                                        All of the factions in the alliance had set faction 39 to hostile and if the fleet would have arrived like it should have this past turn the attack would have happened that turn as well. Hopefully your look into it will help us to understand why things happened they way they did this past turn.

                                        To get the attack to finish you can just run the automatic orders generated from the past turn. No one would need to even submit any orders. We are most interested in seeing the outcome of the battle.



                                        >
                                        > Hm, and it looks like you didn't actually put in orders for the last turn.
                                        >  I guess that just goes to prove the point: in order for evil to triumph,
                                        > it is only necessary for good people to do nothing :-)

                                        Even if Jorge did not submit orders, the automatic orders were in place and the fleet did move two hexes. As far as I can see the fleet should have completed the move to the region of the Black Tower and the attack should have happened.


                                        >
                                        >  Mages are only overpowered because of the economy of the world. In Arnos
                                        > > Atlantis, the cities are much larger and support huge armies (compared to
                                        > > Havilah), so 1 or 2 mages aren't that much against 100k troop armies. The
                                        > > trick here would be to find the correct balance.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Well, one of the things I wanted to work out in the test game was how to
                                        > make the balance better.  Would making hex resource levels (silver and/or
                                        > other resources) higher help make tax and trade factions stronger?  How
                                        > much do they need to be adjusted?
                                        >

                                        Yes, I believe that an increase in the hex resources would help to balance out the power of mages. How much to increase the resources though is a tough question.

                                        > I think I have some insight here, most people like to play until they don't
                                        > > want/can't play anymore. And by then, it's just easier to quit or just stop
                                        > > playing than to complete quests. To me the fun part of the game is too see
                                        > > how big an empire I can have, if I collect all the relics then I leave the
                                        > > game, stop playing and essentially lose.
                                        > >
                                        > > But if you could program some powers into the relics, then people would
                                        > > start collecting and using them.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > If there had been more than one faction collecting relics, then I was going
                                        > to start sorting the scores (which were at
                                        > http://www.shadowlandgames.com/havilah/scores/, if no-one noticed) to make
                                        > it a competition - who could return from exile fastest, with the best
                                        > assets/time ratio, or whatever.  Then you could restart and try to do it
                                        > faster, or with a better ratio.  But there wasn't much point sorting a list
                                        > with only one entry :-/
                                        >
                                        > For an open-ended game there seems to be a need for some kind of score
                                        > card, so that's why I put this in.  Then I was bemused that no-one used it.
                                        >
                                        > While the quests currently reward just relics, the code is quite flexible
                                        > as to what the rewards can be.  It would be easy to add magic items (for
                                        > example) to the list of rewards.  I'm less inclined to give powers to the
                                        > relics themselves, as either they'd all have the same power or I'd need a
                                        > bunch of different relic types.  But I guess if they did things that magic
                                        > items don't currently do then that might make sense.  Suggestions?  Even
                                        > so, they weren't supposed to be aids to game performance, but rather a
                                        > score keeping mechanism.

                                        I like the idea of the quest for relics and the alternative path to exit the game. However, rather than making it an automatic exit from the game what if you were to provide a way to give the player the a choice about when they wish to exit. The way I would see this work is that players would collect relics and then have an opportunity to choose ways to cash them in for different rewards. They could be cashed in for 1) special magic items only available via relics, 2) recon info on another faction, 3) gate or map information, 4) exit the game when you are ready to stop playing.

                                        Most players play the game to keep playing the game, they do not wish to put all the effort into the game only to exit the game. I was collecting relics and had 3 or 4 collected when pirates took my ship down at sea with the collected relics. After that I gave up the effort to collect relics. I never planned to collect enough to exit the game.



                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > One note here. The relics can be used offesively also. If 3 or more
                                        > > factions join and gather 6 of the 7 relics needed to finish and they each
                                        > > send a one man unit with the relics to attack a single opposing unit (with
                                        > > a considerably larger number of men, to guarantee defeat) with all the
                                        > > relics, by the end of the battle, the "winner" has at least 9 relics and
                                        > > gets to "win" the game. Thereby eleminating an enemy. Was this part of the
                                        > > desing?
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > This actually can't happen.  Relics are set to never be included in combat
                                        > spoils (the reason for that was so that they couldn't be taken by force,
                                        > but it also eliminates this tactic).

                                        Ah, we had wondered and speculated on whether or not we could have used this method to cause another faction to leave the game.

                                        Paul
                                      • Stephen Baillie
                                        ... I ve now had a look at the orders submitted, and these were the default orders for unit 951 (the sailors sailing your fleet): ;*** ocean (29,31) in Havilah
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 23, 2013
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                                          My faction was part of the attack coming to pay the Cult a visit. The fleet carrying the alliance members would have arrived this turn and I am not sure why they did not arrive. Maybe you could look into why the fleet did not arrive, it did move two hexes when it should have moved five. Last turn the fleet moved six hexes and the turn before that it moved five hexes. I suspect that it had something to do with the timing of when moves are fully completed and the timing of completing the Black Tower. However, one would think that all moves would finish before any build or cast orders are fully completed.

                                          I've now had a look at the orders submitted, and these were the default orders for unit 951 (the sailors sailing your fleet):

                                          ;*** ocean (29,31) in Havilah Ocean ***

                                          unit 951
                                          ;Roman Sailors (951), avoiding, behind, revealing faction, sharing,
                                          ;  won't cross water, 67 vikings [VIKI], 69 sea elves [SELF], 10
                                          ;  mithril swords [MSWO], 8 plate armor [PARM], 4 mithril shields
                                          ;  [MSHD], 34746 silver [SILV]. Weight: 1398. Capacity: 0/0/2040/0.
                                          ;  Skills: sailing [SAIL] 3 (180).
                                          SAIL SW SW

                                          ...so the reason you only sailed 2 hexes is because that's all Jorge gave you orders to sail.  It really does look like the problem was good people doing nothing, sorry.  Jorge should be able to verify this from his orders template from last turn (presuming he hadn't turned it off to save space).

                                          However, I should point out that movement takes place after spell casting but before BUILD orders.  Since the artifact in question was created with CAST, it would have been completed before any movement took place.  Victory conditions are assessed at the end of the turn.
                                           
                                          This should answer your question as to how far away the attack was.

                                          All of the factions in the alliance had set faction 39 to hostile and if the fleet would have arrived like it should have this past turn the attack would have happened that turn as well. Hopefully your look into it will help us to understand why things happened they way they did this past turn.

                                          To get the attack to finish you can just run the automatic orders generated from the past turn. No one would need to even submit any orders. We are most interested in seeing the outcome of the battle.

                                          Well, rerunning the turn without the Cult's orders and running another didn't help, as your fleet was actually out of move orders.  I went in manually and added a few more "SW" instructions to your sailing orders, and when run with those orders (and no changes to the Cultists') your fleet did arrive and attacked the Cultists, destroying them in 3 rounds (you had slightly more Balrogs, some demons (they had dragons instead), and a lot more mages).  The swinger for the battle outcome was all your mages casting banish demons spells, which destroyed all their balrogs in round one.  Otherwise their advantage in ranged troops would have made it closer.

                                          But although your fleet's arrival would have killed all the Cultists on the island, it wouldn't help you any, as CAST happens before MOVE and SAIL, so they would have already completed their tower and ended the world at the end of the turn despite the perpetrators being brought to justice.

                                          All of which is, of course, hypothetical.

                                          > Well, one of the things I wanted to work out in the test game was how to
                                          > make the balance better.  Would making hex resource levels (silver and/or
                                          > other resources) higher help make tax and trade factions stronger?  How
                                          > much do they need to be adjusted?

                                          Yes, I believe that an increase in the hex resources would help to balance out the power of mages. How much to increase the resources though is a tough question.

                                          Just agreeing that the question is tough doesn't help much, sadly.  Maybe Arno could comment on resource levels in his game?

                                          I like the idea of the quest for relics and the alternative path to exit the game. However, rather than making it an automatic exit from the game what if you were to provide a way to give the player the a choice about when they wish to exit. The way I would see this work is that players would collect relics and then have an opportunity to choose ways to cash them in for different rewards. They could be cashed in for 1) special magic items only available via relics, 2) recon info on another faction, 3) gate or map information, 4) exit the game when you are ready to stop playing.


                                          Most players play the game to keep playing the game, they do not wish to put all the effort into the game only to exit the game. I was collecting relics and had 3 or 4 collected when pirates took my ship down at sea with the collected relics. After that I gave up the effort to collect relics. I never planned to collect enough to exit the game.

                                          Well, I guess that leaves the only winners of the game as the Bughunters, the one faction that did collect seven relics.  And who then restarted and continued playing as a new faction...

                                          Steve.

                                        • stabliser
                                          ... How do you make atlantis balanced when alliances can be any number of factions. Not possible. How could you make it balance if there were no alliances.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 24, 2013
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                                            --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Baillie <stephen.baillie@...> wrote:
                                            > > Well, one of the things I wanted to work out in the test game was how to
                                            > > > make the balance better. Would making hex resource levels (silver and/or
                                            > > > other resources) higher help make tax and trade factions stronger? How
                                            > > > much do they need to be adjusted?
                                            > >
                                            > > Yes, I believe that an increase in the hex resources would help to balance
                                            > > out the power of mages. How much to increase the resources though is a
                                            > > tough question.

                                            How do you make atlantis balanced when alliances can be any number of factions. Not possible.
                                            How could you make it balance if there were no alliances. Fixed faction points (ie War:2 Trade:2 Magic:1)
                                            Why is there an ally option in the game. Because it'd be boring without it, and a single faction would be able to dominate easier.

                                            So what can be done to keep alliances balanced... An Old PBM called Keys of Medokh (which was never finished) had a way of channeling a set number of players into opposing sides for the big fight at the end. Good versus evil of course. Accelerated troop increases happened once you were part of the final team making previous advantages obsolete and your opposite number in the good/evil team had the same new advantages. A rapid escalation towards the conclusion seemed to be the end game.

                                            Could this work with atlantis - Maybe. Suppose you could only collect a relic if you didn't already have one, and suppose there were 7 good relics and 7 evil relics. and each one bestowed powers upon a single unit (high priest?) to summon hordes to their cause. This would lead to an end game with 7 factions on each side. Each one bringing its own type of destruction to the fight.

                                            When a relic is found in spoils by an army also possessing a relic they could cancel each other out and both disappear for the search for them to start again (or not)

                                            ...

                                            Would other tweaking help atlantis? that depends, whats the aim of the tweaks. I think the continued movement of armies that don't loose a single man in combat combined with the effectiveness of CLOAks is a significant problem for defenders. At the moment defence in atlantis is mostly pointless. An army defends itself. Territory is simply lost, and peasants are mostly useless.

                                            Increasing the maintenance of leaders above the level of tax (try 400 [SILV] as an experiment) might adjust their distribution in the population. Increasing the total amount of work available in a region (by a factor of 5 or more, even 20 times) would increase the size of any stationary peasant defence.

                                            A trade faction might like to be able to setup a shop in a city to sell goods through the normal city buy/sell system rather than giving goods to allies and getting a small subsidy for doing so.

                                            Starting cities could have lots of markets (and possible changing from turn to turn) for traders to sell to. Maybe large alliances could push the size of a city to a population level that could convert the city to the same market status as a starting city.

                                            What effect will these ideas have on game balance ... Only testing will know for sure.

                                            Pete
                                          • Jorge Garciasevilla López
                                            Hi Steve!! Thanks!!! Could you send the battle report?? I would love to see it!!! Did the rune swords do any good?
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 24, 2013
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                                              Hi Steve!!
                                               
                                              Thanks!!!
                                               
                                              Could you send the battle report??
                                              I would love to see it!!!
                                              Did the rune swords do any good?
                                               
                                               
                                              Well, rerunning the turn without the Cult's orders and running another didn't help, as your fleet was actually out of move orders.  I went in manually and added a few more "SW" instructions to your sailing orders, and when run with those orders (and no changes to the Cultists') your fleet did arrive and attacked the Cultists, destroying them in 3 rounds (you had slightly more Balrogs, some demons (they had dragons instead), and a lot more mages).  The swinger for the battle outcome was all your mages casting banish demons spells, which destroyed all their balrogs in round one.  Otherwise their advantage in ranged troops would have made it closer.
                                            • atlgizmos
                                              I too would love to see the battle report. -Paul
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 24, 2013
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                                                I too would love to see the battle report.

                                                -Paul

                                                --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, Jorge Garciasevilla López <jorge@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Steve!!
                                                >
                                                > Thanks!!!
                                                >
                                                > Could you send the battle report??
                                                > I would love to see it!!!
                                                > Did the rune swords do any good?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Well, rerunning the turn without the Cult's orders and running
                                                > > another didn't help, as your fleet was actually out of move orders. I went
                                                > > in manually and added a few more "SW" instructions to your sailing orders,
                                                > > and when run with those orders (and no changes to the Cultists') your fleet
                                                > > did arrive and attacked the Cultists, destroying them in 3 rounds (you had
                                                > > slightly more Balrogs, some demons (they had dragons instead), and a lot
                                                > > more mages). The swinger for the battle outcome was all your mages casting
                                                > > banish demons spells, which destroyed all their balrogs in round one.
                                                > > Otherwise their advantage in ranged troops would have made it closer.
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • Paul Gunn
                                                I too would live to see the battle report. -Paul ... I too would live to see the battle report. -Paul On Apr 24, 2013, at 10:44, Jorge Garciasevilla López
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 24, 2013
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                                                  I too would live to see the battle report.

                                                  -Paul


                                                  On Apr 24, 2013, at 10:44, Jorge Garciasevilla López <jorge@...> wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Hi Steve!!
                                                   
                                                  Thanks!!!
                                                   
                                                  Could you send the battle report??
                                                  I would love to see it!!!
                                                  Did the rune swords do any good?
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Well, rerunning the turn without the Cult's orders and running another didn't help, as your fleet was actually out of move orders.  I went in manually and added a few more "SW" instructions to your sailing orders, and when run with those orders (and no changes to the Cultists') your fleet did arrive and attacked the Cultists, destroying them in 3 rounds (you had slightly more Balrogs, some demons (they had dragons instead), and a lot more mages).  The swinger for the battle outcome was all your mages casting banish demons spells, which destroyed all their balrogs in round one.  Otherwise their advantage in ranged troops would have made it closer.

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