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Re: [atlantisdev] Digest Number 896

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  • hobbes
    From a historical standpoint, this statement doesn t quite mesh with the way I perceive reality. You steal money from people, and there are people in the
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 18, 2003
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      From a historical standpoint, this statement doesn't quite mesh with the way I
      perceive reality. You steal money from people, and there are people in the
      region from where you took money who are interested in getting a piece of the
      action, so you hire them. Then, how do you pay them? With their own money, of
      course. Seems perfectly legitimate to me. Nasty, but allowable.

      > Of course, you can use the money from pillaging or taxing to buy more units
      > as long as the unit pillaging is the one buying. Something which I would like
      > to see changed ...
      >
      > Bradley


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    • starstrike99
      ... the way I ... in the ... piece of the ... own money, of ... more units ... would like ... Cynic ;) In which case however, you should be able to tax and use
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 18, 2003
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        > From a historical standpoint, this statement doesn't quite mesh with
        the way I
        > perceive reality. You steal money from people, and there are people
        in the
        > region from where you took money who are interested in getting a
        piece of the
        > action, so you hire them. Then, how do you pay them? With their
        own money, of
        > course. Seems perfectly legitimate to me. Nasty, but allowable.
        >
        > > Of course, you can use the money from pillaging or taxing to buy
        more units
        > > as long as the unit pillaging is the one buying. Something which I
        would like
        > > to see changed ...
        > >
        > > Bradley

        Cynic ;)

        In which case however, you should be able to tax and use the money to
        found a new unit, which you cannot, because tax comes after give.
        Order of things is:

        GIVE
        TAX
        BUY

        Which allows:

        TAX
        BUY using tax money

        But not:
        TAX
        GIVE NEW 1 tax money
        FORM 1
        BUY using tax money
        END
        Of course, putting TAX before GIVE would be horrible - you couldn't
        give units weapons to tax in the same turn in games where weapons are
        needed.

        Putting BUY before TAX allows you to recruit men in units and get them
        to tax the same month they are recruited. "Meshing" with reality I
        think this should be allowed as well - why can't you hire someone,
        stick a sword in their hand, and get them to tax immediately? Why must
        you wait a month?

        I assumed the answer to that was it allows taxmen to grow too quickly
        if they can tax the same turn they are bought (and thus pay their
        recruiting cost almost immediately). But with TAX before BUY you can
        still do the same (use tax money from "next month" to buy taxers to
        tax next month ... looks different, but for growth it is the same effect).

        So I'm not sure why one thing (taxing and hiring immediately) should
        be allowed (but only within a unit when the game is generally good at
        ignoring whether men are in one or multiple units) but the other
        (hiring and taxing immediately) is not allowed. And the simplest way
        to make them consistent is to forbid both, closing the fast growth
        system of spending money that gets earnt during the turn - which is
        yet another thing experienced players do that leaves newcomers in the
        dust.

        Bradley
      • Sebastien Deplaine
        It is possible for a unit to TAX and to hire just after. However, it has an impact on the skills of the unit because the new items hired have no skills. Thus a
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 19, 2003
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          It is possible for a unit to TAX and to hire just after.
          However, it has an impact on the skills of the unit because the new
          items hired have no skills.

          Thus a unit with 30 in combat will not be able to tax during the
          following turn if it is recruiting by this way.
          Excepting of course if it also trains.

          demo:
          turn 1: unit 1 containing 30 vikings (combat 30) and 3000 silver
          viking cost = 90 silv (to simplify)

          Case 1:
          unit 1
          tax
          buy 30 VIKI

          turn2: unit 1 containing 60 vikings (combat 15) and 1200 silver
          => impossible to tax during turn 3

          Case 2:
          unit 1
          tax
          buy 30 VIKI
          study comb

          turn2: unit 1 containing 60 vikings (combat 45) and 600 silver
          => possible to tax during turn 3, but 2 more turns of training to
          gain level 2 whereas unit 1 was already training for 2 months. loss =
          one turn of training (but 4 teachers instead of 6 are enough next
          turns to complete training to reach level 2)

          Case 3:
          unit 1
          give new 2 30 VIKI
          form 2
          tax
          study comb
          end
          buy 30 VIKI
          study comb

          turn 2: unit 1 containing 30 vikings (combat 30) and 0 silver and
          unit 2 containing 30 vikings (combat 60) and 900 silver

          Method of recruiting depends upon how much money you have, how fast
          you want to be to tax the whole region and if you have very low
          skills and teachers.


          PrinceTrue

          --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "starstrike99"
          <starstrike99@y...> wrote:
          > > From a historical standpoint, this statement doesn't quite mesh
          with
          > the way I
          > > perceive reality. You steal money from people, and there are
          people
          > in the
          > > region from where you took money who are interested in getting a
          > piece of the
          > > action, so you hire them. Then, how do you pay them? With their
          > own money, of
          > > course. Seems perfectly legitimate to me. Nasty, but allowable.
          > >
          > > > Of course, you can use the money from pillaging or taxing to buy
          > more units
          > > > as long as the unit pillaging is the one buying. Something
          which I
          > would like
          > > > to see changed ...
          > > >
          > > > Bradley
          >
          > Cynic ;)
          >
          > In which case however, you should be able to tax and use the money
          to
          > found a new unit, which you cannot, because tax comes after give.
          > Order of things is:
          >
          > GIVE
          > TAX
          > BUY
          >
          > Which allows:
          >
          > TAX
          > BUY using tax money
          >
          > But not:
          > TAX
          > GIVE NEW 1 tax money
          > FORM 1
          > BUY using tax money
          > END
          > Of course, putting TAX before GIVE would be horrible - you couldn't
          > give units weapons to tax in the same turn in games where weapons
          are
          > needed.
          >
          > Putting BUY before TAX allows you to recruit men in units and get
          them
          > to tax the same month they are recruited. "Meshing" with reality I
          > think this should be allowed as well - why can't you hire someone,
          > stick a sword in their hand, and get them to tax immediately? Why
          must
          > you wait a month?
          >
          > I assumed the answer to that was it allows taxmen to grow too
          quickly
          > if they can tax the same turn they are bought (and thus pay their
          > recruiting cost almost immediately). But with TAX before BUY you can
          > still do the same (use tax money from "next month" to buy taxers to
          > tax next month ... looks different, but for growth it is the same
          effect).
          >
          > So I'm not sure why one thing (taxing and hiring immediately) should
          > be allowed (but only within a unit when the game is generally good
          at
          > ignoring whether men are in one or multiple units) but the other
          > (hiring and taxing immediately) is not allowed. And the simplest way
          > to make them consistent is to forbid both, closing the fast growth
          > system of spending money that gets earnt during the turn - which is
          > yet another thing experienced players do that leaves newcomers in
          the
          > dust.
          >
          > Bradley
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