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New Testgame?

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  • Georg Gottschalk
    Hello, I m currently working on a heavily changed atlantis 4.0.10 code with the intention to have a 4.1.0 soon. I d like to setup a testgame, however up to now
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 3, 2003
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      Hello,

      I'm currently working on a heavily changed atlantis 4.0.10 code with
      the intention to have a 4.1.0 soon. I'd like to setup a testgame,
      however up to now I haven't found enough players who are interested in
      testing.

      New features are:

      1) reworked gamedata: new (balanced) weapontable, armortable,
      races,terrains.
      2) Possibility to train monsters for combat
      3) reduced strength of magic
      4) AMTS now gives +3 to OBSE, as RING gives +3 to stealth
      5) reworked skills: horsetraining and cameltraining were replaced by
      animaltraining, weaponsmith and armorer are replaced by smithing,
      weaponcraft and armorcraft were added for producing advanced weapons
      and armor, animaltaming and monstertaming were added to train
      monsters, carpenter now is toolmaking, longbow now is archery. Several
      magic skills were changed, too.
      6) non-magic skills that rely on eachother, e.g. monstertaming needs
      animaltraining
      7) non-leaders can study two skills
      8) lots of new items
      9) for each race, there is a racial leader and a racial hero. Normal
      leaders are disabled.
      10) much more

      I will start a testgame if I can get at least 20 playtesters.

      Regards

      Georg (mailto: jegron @ hotmail.com)
    • tzarg
      ... Will you publish the data for inspection? ... That will effectivly make assassins and scouts useless. Why not keep it as is, but tweak the game data to
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 3, 2003
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        > 1) reworked gamedata: new (balanced) weapontable, armortable,
        > races,terrains.

        Will you publish the data for inspection?

        > 2) Possibility to train monsters for combat
        > 3) reduced strength of magic
        > 4) AMTS now gives +3 to OBSE, as RING gives +3 to stealth

        That will effectivly make assassins and scouts useless. Why not keep
        it as is, but tweak the game data to make assassination more
        dangerous for the assassin (i.e. limit the number of free attacks an
        assassin can get, rule out the more powerful weapons from
        assassination).

        > 5) reworked skills: horsetraining and cameltraining were replaced by
        > animaltraining, weaponsmith and armorer are replaced by smithing,
        > weaponcraft and armorcraft were added for producing advanced weapons
        > and armor, animaltaming and monstertaming were added to train
        > monsters, carpenter now is toolmaking, longbow now is archery.
        > Several magic skills were changed, too.

        Good idea to merge skills like horse/camel training to simplify the
        system. I'd also remove tools, thus no need for toolmaking.

        > 6) non-magic skills that rely on eachother, e.g. monstertaming needs
        > animaltraining
        > 7) non-leaders can study two skills

        This could be a lot of fun. So now you can have non-leader knights
        (c3 r2), stealth troops, or versitile producers/crafters.

        > 8) lots of new items

        hmmm.... sounds like clutter to me

        > 9) for each race, there is a racial leader and a racial hero. Normal
        > leaders are disabled.

        How is a hero different from a leader?

        > 10) much more

        More==more fun or more==more clutter?

        Cheers,
        Tom
      • Georg Gottschalk
        ... I ll publish it once it is finished. In the meantime, you can check out http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tarmellion/source/ though the
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 3, 2003
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          --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "tzarg" <tzarg@y...> wrote:
          > > 1) reworked gamedata: new (balanced) weapontable, armortable,
          > > races,terrains.
          >
          > Will you publish the data for inspection?

          I'll publish it once it is finished. In the meantime, you can check
          out http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tarmellion/source/
          though the gamedata there is for Henriks Tarmellion game, my items are
          already in there (or at least most of them). However the Ceran
          directory at sourceforge is not up to date.

          > > 4) AMTS now gives +3 to OBSE, as RING gives +3 to stealth
          >
          > That will effectivly make assassins and scouts useless. Why not keep
          > it as is, but tweak the game data to make assassination more
          > dangerous for the assassin (i.e. limit the number of free attacks an
          > assassin can get, rule out the more powerful weapons from
          > assassination).
          >

          Maybe I'll change this later, however I had to do something against
          all those ringed assassins (at the end of Ceran II, there were more
          than 500 assassins with rings and longbows (my weaker version of
          doublebows))

          > > 5) reworked skills: horsetraining and cameltraining were replaced
          by
          > > animaltraining, weaponsmith and armorer are replaced by smithing,
          > > weaponcraft and armorcraft were added for producing advanced
          weapons
          > > and armor, animaltaming and monstertaming were added to train
          > > monsters, carpenter now is toolmaking, longbow now is archery.
          > > Several magic skills were changed, too.
          >
          > Good idea to merge skills like horse/camel training to simplify the
          > system. I'd also remove tools, thus no need for toolmaking.
          >

          Henrik and me even added more tools, most item production is now
          boosted by tools and tools also aid in building. In Ceran II they were
          used a lot.

          > > 7) non-leaders can study two skills
          >
          > This could be a lot of fun. So now you can have non-leader knights
          > (c3 r2), stealth troops, or versitile producers/crafters.
          >
          > > 8) lots of new items
          >
          > hmmm.... sounds like clutter to me
          >

          Well, there are no longer tradegoods, but you'll have to produce them
          instead. We tried to make it more interesting to play a trade faction,
          and make it possible to play without without having the final war in
          mind.

          > > 9) for each race, there is a racial leader and a racial hero.
          Normal
          > > leaders are disabled.
          >
          > How is a hero different from a leader?
          >

          Every race is expert in up to four skills and good in four more
          skills. All other skills are at default.

          Racial leaders know the racial skills at higher level and have some
          limited magical skills. They can be bought instead of the normal
          leaders.

          racial heros have all skills racial leaders have, plus a skill default
          of 5, thus they no longer have the limit in magic. Every player starts
          with one hero, the leader of his faction, and cannot get another one
          unless his hero dies. The race of the hero also is the race of the
          faction, so e.g. wood elves will never follow an orcish hero.

          > > 10) much more
          >
          > More==more fun or more==more clutter?

          just give it a try.

          >
          > Cheers,
          > Tom

          Georg
        • tzarg
          ... Simple: If a weapon is too powerful, set the flag so it can t be used in assassinations. It s perfectly realistic to outlaw longbows from assassinations.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 3, 2003
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            > Maybe I'll change this later, however I had to do something against
            > all those ringed assassins (at the end of Ceran II, there were more
            > than 500 assassins with rings and longbows (my weaker version of
            > doublebows))

            Simple: If a weapon is too powerful, set the flag so it can't be used
            in assassinations. It's perfectly realistic to outlaw longbows from
            assassinations. Maybe rule out all ranged weapons in assassinations,
            and then you can protect key leaders by giving them good combat skill
            and weapons (so they have a good chance to kill the assassin).

            > Henrik and me even added more tools, most item production is now
            > boosted by tools and tools also aid in building. In Ceran II they
            > were used a lot.

            If they're there, people will use them. But it's extra player work to
            manage all the tools. Anything which can be done to reduce the amount
            of time a player has to put into atlantis to be competitive, should
            be done, I reckon.


            > > > 8) lots of new items
            > >
            > > hmmm.... sounds like clutter to me
            >
            > Well, there are no longer tradegoods, but you'll have to produce
            > them instead. We tried to make it more interesting to play a trade
            > faction, and make it possible to play without without having the
            > final war in mind.

            So there are lots of different, but very rare items which can be
            produced? That would be fine.

            > Every race is expert in up to four skills and good in four more
            > skills. All other skills are at default.
            >
            > Racial leaders know the racial skills at higher level and have some
            > limited magical skills. They can be bought instead of the normal
            > leaders.
            >
            > racial heros have all skills racial leaders have, plus a skill
            > default of 5, thus they no longer have the limit in magic. Every
            > player starts with one hero, the leader of his faction, and cannot
            > get another one unless his hero dies. The race of the hero also is
            > the race of the faction, so e.g. wood elves will never follow an
            > orcish hero.

            Sounds good.

            > > > 10) much more
            > >
            > > More==more fun or more==more clutter?
            >
            > just give it a try.

            Can't argue with that ;-)

            Cheers,
            Tom
          • Georg Gottschalk
            ... against ... more ... used ... skill ... Ok, current status: only knives, daggers and crossbows can be used in assassinations. Let s see how this will do
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 4, 2003
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              --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "tzarg" <tzarg@y...> wrote:
              > > Maybe I'll change this later, however I had to do something
              against
              > > all those ringed assassins (at the end of Ceran II, there were
              more
              > > than 500 assassins with rings and longbows (my weaker version of
              > > doublebows))
              >
              > Simple: If a weapon is too powerful, set the flag so it can't be
              used
              > in assassinations. It's perfectly realistic to outlaw longbows from
              > assassinations. Maybe rule out all ranged weapons in assassinations,
              > and then you can protect key leaders by giving them good combat
              skill
              > and weapons (so they have a good chance to kill the assassin).
              >

              Ok, current status: only knives, daggers and crossbows can be used in
              assassinations. Let's see how this will do during the testgame.

              > > Henrik and me even added more tools, most item production is now
              > > boosted by tools and tools also aid in building. In Ceran II they
              > > were used a lot.
              >
              > If they're there, people will use them. But it's extra player work
              to
              > manage all the tools. Anything which can be done to reduce the
              amount
              > of time a player has to put into atlantis to be competitive, should
              > be done, I reckon.
              >

              I think the main goal should be to give players much choices what they
              can do. It isn't actually necessary to use tools, but you will produce
              a bit cheaper if you do. it's up to you.

              > > > > 8) lots of new items
              > > >
              > > > hmmm.... sounds like clutter to me
              > >
              > > Well, there are no longer tradegoods, but you'll have to produce
              > > them instead. We tried to make it more interesting to play a trade
              > > faction, and make it possible to play without without having the
              > > final war in mind.
              >
              > So there are lots of different, but very rare items which can be
              > produced? That would be fine.
              >

              Yes, but there are also higher amounts of normal ressources. There are
              a few very rare ressources, and if you can get control of a region
              which has one of them, you will have a good trade base. However I
              think those regions might be faught over.

              > > > > 10) much more
              > > >
              > > > More==more fun or more==more clutter?
              > >
              > > just give it a try.
              >
              > Can't argue with that ;-)
              >

              I saw you just signed up ;) Let's see when there are enough testers.

              > Cheers,
              > Tom

              Georg
            • tzarg
              ... Sounds good to me. Does that mean the target can also only use knives, daggers and crossbows? I think there might be a case for splitting
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 4, 2003
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                > Ok, current status: only knives, daggers and crossbows can be used
                > in assassinations. Let's see how this will do during the testgame.

                Sounds good to me. Does that mean the target can also only use
                knives, daggers and crossbows?

                I think there might be a case for splitting
                CAN_BE_USED_IN_ASSASSINATION or whatever the flag is called into two
                separate flags - one for assassins (CAN_BE_USED_BY_ASSASSINS) and one
                for targets (CAN_DEFEND_IN_ASSASSINATIONS) - that way your leader
                with a longbow (or DBOW or SWOR or whatever) gets to defend with his
                primary weapon, and if he lives, use it for counter attack. That
                would make assassinations a lot more dangerous for the assassin.

                I'm also in favour of limiting the number of assassination rounds
                (say, to 4 rounds), and possibly including a new order (e.g. AMBUSH),
                which would allow hit-and-run attacks by units or armies, as well as
                assassins.

                AMBUSH could work as follows:
                - If the unit issuing the AMBUSH order has STEA>OBSE of the target
                faction, the ambush succeeds and the attacker gets a free round.
                - If OBSE==STEA, the ambush succeeds, but there are no free rounds.
                - If OBSE>STEA, the ambush fails, and a normal battle ensues.
                - Perhaps we could also include a modifier for TACT - the side with
                greater TACT skill gets +1 on the OBSE/STEA comparison.
                - AMTS or TRUE will not be included in the OBSE/STEA comparison,
                except as below.
                - If the unit issuing the AMBUSH order is a 1-man unit, the battle
                will be between 2 individual soldiers, as in an assassination attempt.
                - If the unit issuing the AMBUSH order has more than 1 man (or there
                are multiple units AMBUSHing the same target, then a normal battle
                will ensue, with a few limitations, as below.
                - Defenders in an AMBUSH will be chosen randomly from the target
                faction's units which would normally muster in the same hex, and only
                2-3x the number of attacking men will be included as defenders.
                - AMTS will only be included in the OBSE/STEA comparison if one of
                the chosen defenders is carrying an AMTS and his total OBSE is
                greater than the faction's OBSE without AMTS.
                - An AMBUSH will last only one round (in addition to any free rounds).

                This needs some more thought, but it could be a good replacement for
                the ASSASSINATE order, and allow for more tactical variation.

                On Tools:
                > I think the main goal should be to give players much choices what
                > they can do. It isn't actually necessary to use tools, but you will
                > produce a bit cheaper if you do. it's up to you.

                True, but they are extra items to clutter inventories. And all
                traders will use tools to optimise their productivity.

                But my main objection to tools is I feel they are outside of the
                spirit of the game, which is to simplify interactions, and only
                report on things which have major in-game effects. For example, the
                rules state re combat: "Troops which are fighting hand-to-hand
                without specific weapons are assumed to be irregularly armed with
                makeshift weapons such as clubs, pitchforks, torches, etc.".

                Therefore, I assume that trade units with lumberjack, mining or other
                skills are assumed to have axes, picks, hammers and anvils and other
                tools of the trade, or they wouldn't be able to produce anything.

                How can a miner without a pick, shovel, wheelbarrow or mining cart,
                etc. produce any iron? So why choose pick, and not shovel? And for
                smiths, why hammer and not anvil?

                Basically, I think tools are silly timewasters for players.

                > > So there are lots of different, but very rare items which can be
                > > produced? That would be fine.
                >
                > Yes, but there are also higher amounts of normal resources. There
                > are a few very rare resources, and if you can get control of a
                > region which has one of them, you will have a good trade base.
                > However I think those regions might be fought over.

                Having things to fight over is good for the game, I think.

                > I saw you just signed up ;) Let's see when there are enough testers.

                Yep. Does that mean we should move this discussion to the ceran3dev
                group?

                Cheers,
                Tom
              • Tomaz Hägglund
                ... How about making it so that assassinating with ranged weapons is not forbidden, but it will mean the unit will be detected and attacked immediately after
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 5, 2003
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                  > Maybe I'll change this later, however I had to do something against
                  > all those ringed assassins (at the end of Ceran II, there were more
                  > than 500 assassins with rings and longbows (my weaker version of
                  > doublebows))

                  >Simple: If a weapon is too powerful, set the flag so it can't be used
                  >in assassinations. It's perfectly realistic to outlaw longbows from
                  >assassinations. Maybe rule out all ranged weapons in assassinations,
                  >and then you can protect key leaders by giving them good combat skill
                  >and weapons (so they have a good chance to kill the assassin).

                  How about making it so that assassinating with ranged weapons is not forbidden, but it will mean the unit will be detected and
                  attacked immediately after the assassination (if it's successful of course). This means if you want a successful assassination, you
                  must most likely sacrifice your assassin.

                  I'm also thinking perhaps a change to truesight would be in order, so that it's more efficient against INVI. Perhaps give OBSE+1 for
                  each TRUE level simply. (So a true4 could not only detect, but also identify the assassin, though true 5 would be pointless but for
                  creating more amulets.) Also, perhaps grant TRUE automatic OBSE5 to begin with, so you don't have to waste eight turns studying OBSE
                  with your mage.

                  /Tomaz
                • Georg Gottschalk
                  Hello Tomaz, ... forbidden, but it will mean the unit will be detected and ... course). This means if you want a successful assassination, you ...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 7, 2003
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                    Hello Tomaz,

                    > How about making it so that assassinating with ranged weapons is not
                    forbidden, but it will mean the unit will be detected and
                    > attacked immediately after the assassination (if it's successful of
                    course). This means if you want a successful assassination, you
                    > must most likely sacrifice your assassin.
                    >

                    Assassination with ranged weapons should, if possible at all, be the
                    safest way for an assassin. He doesn't have to approach the target,
                    but could just sit on the roof of some building and wait, while an
                    assassin with a dagger has to sneak up his victim. However the used
                    weapon shouldn't require much movement. An assassin with a bow will
                    definitely be seen and wouldn't have a second shot.

                    > I'm also thinking perhaps a change to truesight would be in order,
                    so that it's more efficient against INVI. Perhaps give OBSE+1 for
                    > each TRUE level simply. (So a true4 could not only detect, but also
                    identify the assassin, though true 5 would be pointless but for
                    > creating more amulets.) Also, perhaps grant TRUE automatic OBSE5 to
                    begin with, so you don't have to waste eight turns studying OBSE
                    > with your mage.
                    >

                    I don't want to make magic faction even more powerful. It should be
                    expensive to get a trueseeing mage, and it should happen in aboout the
                    same time another faction can get assassins and invisibility-mages
                    trained. The additional OBSE-bonus is already included as a gamedef
                    option.

                    > /Tomaz

                    Georg
                  • tzarg
                    ... I agree. No code changes needed to implement this, just config. ... also ... to ... Yes, magic is too powerful. However, it takes a lot longer to get to
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 8, 2003
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                      > Assassination with ranged weapons should, if possible at all, be the
                      > safest way for an assassin. He doesn't have to approach the target,
                      > but could just sit on the roof of some building and wait, while an
                      > assassin with a dagger has to sneak up his victim. However the used
                      > weapon shouldn't require much movement. An assassin with a bow will
                      > definitely be seen and wouldn't have a second shot.

                      I agree. No code changes needed to implement this, just config.

                      > > I'm also thinking perhaps a change to truesight would be in order,
                      > so that it's more efficient against INVI. Perhaps give OBSE+1 for
                      > > each TRUE level simply. (So a true4 could not only detect, but
                      also
                      > identify the assassin, though true 5 would be pointless but for
                      > > creating more amulets.) Also, perhaps grant TRUE automatic OBSE5
                      to
                      > begin with, so you don't have to waste eight turns studying OBSE
                      > > with your mage.
                      > >
                      >
                      > I don't want to make magic faction even more powerful. It should be
                      > expensive to get a trueseeing mage, and it should happen in aboout
                      > the
                      > same time another faction can get assassins and invisibility-mages
                      > trained. The additional OBSE-bonus is already included as a gamedef
                      > option.

                      Yes, magic is too powerful. However, it takes a lot longer to get to
                      TRUE 5 than it does to get to INVI 2 or 3, which is all you need for
                      a group of invisible untouchable assassins. However, if assassination
                      is risky for the assassin, this isn't such a bad thing. You'll get
                      more people using the STEAL order instead.
                    • ahitribe
                      Hi, ... against ... more ... used ... assassinations, ... skill ... Mmm, that s tweaking the code instead of fixing the underlying concept, resulting in
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 16, 2003
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                        Hi,

                        --- In atlantisdev@yahoogroups.com, "tzarg" <tzarg@y...> wrote:
                        > > Maybe I'll change this later, however I had to do something
                        against
                        > > all those ringed assassins (at the end of Ceran II, there were
                        more
                        > > than 500 assassins with rings and longbows (my weaker version of
                        > > doublebows))
                        >
                        > Simple: If a weapon is too powerful, set the flag so it can't be
                        used
                        > in assassinations. It's perfectly realistic to outlaw longbows from
                        > assassinations. Maybe rule out all ranged weapons in
                        assassinations,
                        > and then you can protect key leaders by giving them good combat
                        skill
                        > and weapons (so they have a good chance to kill the assassin).

                        Mmm, that's tweaking the code instead of fixing the underlying
                        concept, resulting in something that doesn't make much sense.
                        Assassins use the best weapons, not the worst, and often favour range
                        weapons over melee weapons. Caesar mobbed on the Senate steps is the
                        exception to the rule :-)
                        I do agree that assassinating should be more risky however, with a
                        greater chance of failure or getting caught.

                        Personally, I'd keep AMTS at +2 and RING at +3. Atlantis games go
                        through phases and large-scale use of RINGs should co-incide with
                        TRUE 5 OBSE 5 mages, who can kill a lot of STEA 8 assassins per turn
                        if the assassins are concentrated in one area.

                        The trick is to make RINGs more difficult to get by removing balrog
                        harvesting from the game, and perhaps making the study path to CRRI a
                        longer one, although I think this is probably not required. That way
                        you don't get so many rings in the game when the mages get to SUBA.

                        Also, the STEA 8 assassins are only a huge problem for factions if
                        they have not prepared properly, in which case they deserve what they
                        get. War factions should not rely on single-leader tactician units,
                        trade factions should train up reserve units to replace assassinated
                        yew/wing/dbow producers, and magic factions should make sure they
                        study TRUE and CRTA. Just because factions are stupid, lazy or
                        inexperienced doesn't mean there's something wrong with the game :-)

                        Regards,

                        Alhaam

                        PS. I'd be keen to join the testgame.
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