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Re: While ethnic Indigenous people of Western Assam grieve

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  • kurmaa
    On July 2012 I discovered some activities on Kamarupa matter in Wikipedia what they call it Edit-War on Kamarupa - this is how whole thing caught my attention.
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 14, 2012
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      On July 2012 I discovered some activities on Kamarupa matter in Wikipedia what they call it Edit-War on Kamarupa - this is how whole thing caught my attention.

      In brief:
      • On 26 August 2012, I wrote a move proposal in Wikipedia to move "Lower Assam" page to "Western Assam".
      • 27 August 2012, an individual with user ID Chaipau opposed my move proposal. This individual is a Tai-Ahom. He created soapbox on Kamrupi matter in Wikipedia in year 2006 and wrote, "Nevertheless, it seems the Kamrupi page too has a soapbox now! --- Chaipau 22:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)." - this was the first time I spotted this behaviour who was against Kamarupa matter.
      • Another Ahom individual with user ID Lachitbarphukan opposes the move, I do not know whether he is Tai-Ahom or other non-tai Ahom.
      • Some White/Chinese individuals (Paul B ; Thegreatgrabber ; Yunshui  ;
        Andrew Lancaster ; Andrew DalbyDQ ; Beeblebrox ; etc) took part as well.

      Currently I am gagged in Wikipedia. But I am waiting to see what decision Wikipedia takes on ethnic indigenous matter as the opposing party includes Ahom, White, Chinese etc..

      User Chaipau is a member of assamonline as well.


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Talk:Lower_Assam#Move_proposal

      Move proposal

      I oppose the move of "Lower Assam" to "Western Assam". "Lower Assam" is widely used in popular media as well as academic literature. The nomenclature "Lower Assam" was introduced by the British to denote the lower reaches of the Assam (Brahmaputra) Valley.

      • Popular media:
        • "However, the said trains were controlled at various stations of lower Assam and North Bengal." August 24, 2012, The Assam Tribune
        • "Fresh violence in Lower Assam, one person killed, 2 injured", August 26, 2012 The Indian Express
      • Scholarly media: [21]

      Chaipau (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

      Agree. The name "Lower Assam" is consistently used in literature.--Thegreatgrabber (talk) 03:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

      Usage of term "Western Assam" by Scholars and in Popular Media

      Scolarly Usage

      • Bengali and other related dialects of south Assam, Sudhāṃśu Śekhara Tuṅga, thence proceeded southward to North Bengal and eastward to western Assam.
      • Encyclopaedia of the World Muslims: Tribes, Castes and Communities: Volume 1, Nagendra Kr Singh, Abdul Mabud Khan, between rural and urban areas and also between eastern and western Assam. In parts of western Assam there are strong feelings
      • Socio-economic Profile of Rural India: North-East India (Assam, Manipur, Tripura, Nagaland), V. K. Agnihotri, Chandragupta Ashokvardhan, Rajendra Vora, It is a fact that feudalism had a stunted growth in Western Assam.
      • Assam General Knowledge,The invasion of western Assam
      • Historical development of legal literature on customary laws in Assam: A critical study, Wakidur Rohman, entire literary activities shifted from Western Assam to Estern Assam
      • Indian Literature, Nagendra, So long the dialectal stamp of western Assam was the characteristic of the main body of the literature
      • History of Upper Assam, Upper Burmah and North-Eastern Frontier, Leslie Shakespear, stream entering western Assam through the valleys of the Tista, Dharla, and Sankosh rivers
      • Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: D-K, James Minahan, In return for dropping territorial claims to western Assam
      • Biographical encyclopedia of Sufis, N. Hanif, Khidr, Khawaja (18th Century) Khawaja Khidr who deserves our attention, was a Sufi of Western Assam
      • Earthquake prediction: an international review, David W. Simpson, Paul G. Richards, American Geophysical Union,1897 Western Assam The 1897 earthquake (Figure 8) is the largest well-documented earthquake in India

      Popular Media Usage

      Thanks !

      bbhagawati (talk) 03:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

      Your examples do not show that "Lower Assam" is derogatory. Chaipau (talk) 22:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

      Don't move article any further until you have atleast fifty sources, because i can provide more than this in my case. As it was Western Assam before your attempt to move it to Lower Assam, which was not back by enough sources nor by other two people involve here including me, its on your part to justify the same, till kept it as original.
      bbhagawati (talk) 02:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
      The page was created as "Lower Assam" (here). When the notice was put, the page was "Lower Assam" (here). So please maintain status quo till an independent user adjudicates on the move request. Since you are one of the disputing parties, you cannot set down rules and judge whether you have satisfied all the move criteria. Chaipau (talk) 10:39, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
      Here are the results of a count on scholar.google.com:
      And here are the results from a google search:
      This clearly shows that "lower assam" is more prevalent on the Internet. The google searches agree with what is written in Bannerjee "[The] territory from Biswanath to Goalpara�was known as Western Assam; but another name�Lower Assam�gradually came into use." (Banerjee 1992, p. 9)", given in the text. The name of the book "History of Upper Assam, Upper Burmah and North-Eastern Frontier", Leslie Shakespeare which you quote from above, clear shows that "Lower Assam" and "Upper Assam" became common use. Chaipau (talk) 11:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

      Kindly provide proper and enough sources instead of indulging in move warring. This is how you move the original page without consensus and enough sources. भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 16:45, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
      I moved it back to "Lower Assam" after it was moved to "Western Assam". The page was created (by you) as "Lower Assam" (here). You moved the page without explanation diff and I moved it back to "Lower Assam" with explanation diff after your move.
      • I have given the source that "Lower Assam" is a standard name in the text as well as here (Bannerjee 1992, p9).
      • Further, it is a well defined administrative division. There is a Commissioner, Lower Assam division, Government of Assam (Shri Sabbir Hussain, SCS-1996, Commissioner, Lower Assam Division, Assam given here.
      • The internet returns more hits for "Lower Assam" than for "Western Assam" (given above)
      So please maintain status quo (move back the page to "Lower Assam") till an independent editor/admin can review the evidence here.
      Chaipau (talk) 17:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
      As creator himself reverted or edited his own edit, there is no major need for explanation for same. User Kurmaa's objection and sources seems quite convincing for now, waiting for consensus for further drastic change. Thanks ! भास्कर्bhagawati Speak 03:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
      Just because you created the page does not mean you have ownership. You do have to follow Wikipedia policies and conventions. The most important of which is collaborative editing, and in case of a dispute, a resolution via an independent and neutral party. Chaipau (talk) 10:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      Gagged User and Ahom Group Pressure

      Kurmaa Gagged in Wikipedia

      Where is the evidence that "Lower Assam" is derogatory from Kurmaa, except for an unsubstantiated claim? On the contrary, I have given evidence it is widely used including by the Government of Assam. Chaipau (talk) 11:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

      • I see that Ahom user Chaipau had used Wikipedia resources to gag Kurmaa.
      • How can gagged Kurmaa now defend indigenous ethnic minorities of Western Assam in Wikipedia?
      • Also, it appears as per some emails in assamonline yahoogroups Assam government has been led by Ahom - for example during past 3 decades, first a Dravidian Ahom Prafulla Mahanta and now a Mongoloid Ahom (to be specific Tai-Ahom) name Tarun Gogoi. User Chaipau is a Tai-Ahom too.
      • Thus, we have seen Ahom occupiers altering a lot of nomenclatures in Western Assam.
      • A better approach for Wikipedia shall be to find out what indigenous ethnic minorities of Western Assam want. (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

      Pressure from local Ahom group

      And as the creator of the "Lower Assam" page, the "Lower Assam" WikiProject, "Lower Assam" category, you obviously took great pride in "Lower Assam". This shows that the only evidence of the derogatory nature is an unsubstantiated claim by Kurmaa. Chaipau (talk) 11:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

      • It has caught my attention that a local Ahom group out there in Guwahati have been putting pressure on user Bhaskarbhagawati for a while. (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

      Lower Assam usage more complex and troubling

      I see that this Lower Assam usage is more complex and troubling than just writing Wikipedia pages citing some references.

      Here I also see that user Chaipau himself is an Ahom while the other party is not Ahom but ethnic minority.

      Before writing this note I have visited several talk pages one such for example is ([22]).

      In another talk page, according to a Ahom user Lachitbarphukan, it appears that Ahom have been occupying undivided Kamrup (here Western Assam) since 1617 CE ([23]).

      It looks like after British occupation ended, Ahom have taken over Kamrup and thus Ahom have been doing what they like on the ethnic minorities out there.

      Lower Assam a English translation of local Ahom word নামোনি আহোম

      I see that Lower Assam is a translation of the 2-letter word নামোনি আহোম spoken in a dialect that Ahom people speaks out there.

      Though this word is written নামনি আসম, Ahom people in genera reads it as নামোনি আহোম, like হুনোর আহোম for example where certain phonemic deficiency is observed.

      So it is not really a word that British coined it during British India as user Chaipau claimed in ([24]).

      Lower Assam count in google about 266 million

      Talking about "Lower Saxony, Lower Canada, the Low Countries, Low Fell" as in ([25]) one gets "Lower Sax, Lower Can, the Low Cou, Low Fell", but with Lower Assam, however, one gets Lower Ass (About 266,000,000 results) that does not sound right as those of Lower Sax, Lower Can, the Low Cou, Low Fell, i.e., Lower Ass holds pretty different meaning.

      So you would expect at least some to use this Lower Ass term to ridicule people of Western Assam.

      User Chaipau's numbers in google search differs over 20,000

      • Talking about numbers, ethnic minority Kamrupi people are under 4 million.
      • Though google search numbers and or user Chaipu disputing do not hold any meaning as because Chaipu himself is one among Ahom, I would like to point here:- "lower assam" 878,000 results
      • I did not see 878,000 results, but I see About 856,000 results (0.19 seconds). So there is a difference over 20,000

      Backdoor talk

      I see that there is a backdoor talk going on in a different link. Should a visitor of this page be interested on what has been going on thru backdoor please visit Backdoor talk

      How many Kamrupi users Wikipedia has?

      My questions for an Wikipedia administrator who is intelligible, responsible and concerned about minority matter.

      • How many Kamrupi users Wikipedia has?
      • How to find whether Kamrupi journalists/reporters use Western Assam or Lower Assam?

      Appreciate it very much! (talk) 21:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

      Assam and Bharat abbreviation usage

      Raving paranoia is not an argument. Now are you are claiming that "Assam" itself is derogatory because it can be abbreviated to "ass" (by which I assume you intend to imply "arse" rather than "donkey"). Is the upper ass better than the lower ass? This is madness. Do you realise that Bharat can be abbreviated to "rat". Also, it sounds like "bar-rat". Clearly the use of this term instead of 'India' is overtly part of a plot by some ethnic group that shall remain nameless to make American English speakers think that Indians are all alcoholic vermin! It should be removed from all articles immediately. Paul B (talk) 12:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

      • Now are you are claiming that "Assam" itself is derogatory because it can be abbreviated to "ass".
      • Yes ASS is derogatory to be used as abbreviation.

      In its one of the amendments, Republic of India uses a 3-letter abbreviation code for each Republic of India language or script-set such as Assamese, Bengali, Devanagari, Oriya, etc..

      The first 3-letter is the first choice provided a concerned State Government and/or amendments committee itself does/do not object.

      Therefore, for the following languages the abbreviations shown, for example, should have been good.

      • Assamese - ASS (see English dictionary for ass meaning, derogatory)
      • Bengali - BEN (In several Indian languages BEN holds the meaning a species of Frog, derogatory)
      • Devanagari - DEV (Good, no derogatory meaning)
      • Oriya - ORI (Good, no derogatory meaning)

      But in the amendment the following were used:

      • Assamese - ASM
      • Bengali - BNG
      • Devanagari - DEV
      • Oriya - ORI

      I am hoping I have managed to explain user Paul B regarding ASS and BEN usage by Government of Assam, Bengal and Republic of India.

      For a country name, India uses a 2-letter or 3-letter abbreviation.

      Here too Republic of India do not have a history to use any abbreviation that could lead to derogatory meaning.

      • Bhārata or Bharat - BH (2-letter) or BHA (3-letter)

      Both abbreviations are great, especially BHA stands for BHAGYA and the word is found in Indian National Anthem as well.

      So, I do not think user Paul B or any Ahom or any American will be able to persuade any Indian including Republic of India government to choose different abbreviation for Bharat.

      • Is the upper ass better than the lower ass?
      • May I suggest user Paul B to utilize above explained information and then think as if he is an Indian, then ask the question -forgive me but I didn't mean to imply dumb ass.
      • Clearly the use of this term instead of 'India' is overtly part of a plot by some ethnic group
      • India is used in English while Bharat is used both in National language as well as state languages � user Paul B shall ask Republic of India why they have 2 different names for their country (I do not have an answer why).

      • Then why Ahom people loves the word Assam?
      • Average Ahom people believe that the word Assam is from the word Ahom.

      Since greater undivided Kamarupa or Kamrup is politically inside the state of Assam, the indigenous minorities out there do not have choice but to embrace the nomenclature imposed by Ahom administrations.

      Hoping my explanation helps, appreciat it very much! (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

      Why there is lack of HISTORY on LOWER ASSAM after Pala Dynasty

      It is very surprising that the article Lower Assam contain no historical information after Pala dynasty. What is the reason? Why there is no mention of any historical events, when Lower Assam was ruled by Koch dynasty and later by Ahom Dynasty. Why there is no mention of Mughal invasions in Assam? I must say a significant and important part of history of Lower Assam is missing. Even the great works of Sankardev and Madhavdev and the importance of Satras or Vaishnava monastries are also not mentioned here.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 12:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      • None such material or great work of the great people of Kamarupa shall be written under this topic Lower Assam.
      • One shall not push Ahom agenda on Kamarupa or present Western Assam. Wikipedia is wrong place for such activities.
      Mussal (talk) 18:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      RfC: Western Assam or Lower Assam?

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      Discussion seems to be stalling and going around in circles here, so I'm opening an RfC to open the issue to a wider audience. Although I recommend that commentators read the talkpage threads above, as well as the discussion at the RS noticeboard here, I will summarise the two positions as briefly as I can:
      Arguments made in favour of Western Assam:

      • "Lower Assam" can be abbrieviated to "Lower Ass.", which is seen as derogatory.
      • "Lower Assam" is the preferred term of the Ahom majority, and its use is offensive to the Kamarupi minority.

      Arguments made in favour of Lower Assam

      • The page was originally created under the title "Lower Assam".
      • "Lower Assam" is now the more common name in English".

      Thank you in advance for your input. Yunshui  12:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      • If "Lower Assam" can be abbreviated as "Lower Ass", the "Western Assam" can be abbreviated as "Western Ass", which is also derogatory.
      • "Lower Assam" is not the preferred term for Ahom people. The Ahoms are an ethnic group, and though they are predominantly found in "Upper Assam", they can be found in "Lower Assam" too. "Lower Assam", on the other hand, is the name of a region, the lower reaches of the Brahmaputra river in Assam, and it was a term that was coined by the British (look above at . During the Ahom rule, the part of "Lower Assam" that was under the Ahom rule was called Kamrup, after the Mughals, from whom this region was taken.
      Please discuss this under Talk:Lower_Assam#Move_proposal .
      Chaipau (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
      Lower Assam is word to word translation of the 2-letter phrase spoken by Ahom people. Before Ahom occupation, the Mughal used to occupy the region. They use Western Assam as can be seen in Bibliotheca Indica - Volume 154 - Page 132 - translation of original Persian. Mussal (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      Does Kurmaa gagged mean Tai-Ahom Chaipu win?

      Also, please be aware that this discussion may not move forward because User:Kurmaa has been blocked indefinitely for violating Wikipedia policies (WP:EVASION), and his sock puppet, User:, has been blocked for a month. Chaipau (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      • Does Kurmaa gagged mean Tai-Ahom Chaipu win?

      Mussal (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      Western Assam term was used even before Ahom occupation of the region

      It is important for everyone to know that the term "LOWER ASSAM" was used in official documents by the British Government before 1947 CE, and it is still used in the official records and documents of Government of Assam. The term Upper Assam and Lower Assam was used by British, to denote the regions lying in the upstreams of River Brahmaputra and to the regions lying in the downstreams of the River Brahmaputra. No one in Assam considers the term "Lower Assam" as derogatory. This complain against this term was first lodge in Wikipedia by User Kurmaa. The User Kurmaa had made an unnecessary hue and cry over this issue. While in reality, no one in Assam has any problem with the term "Lower Assam". Even in this article Lower Assam, almost a major part of historical events were skipped, providing very less and wrong information regarding Lower Assam. It will create a wrong impression of Lower Assam among the readers around the world. All the historical records and present day official documents will support the term Lower Assam. Therefore i would request the members of Wikipedia community, not to encourage any comments which are not supported by any historical or official documents. From the comments of the User Kurmaa, one can easily assume how desperate the user is to prove his point, which in reality doesnot existed. The User even used derogatory terms againsy Ahom community, a clear sign of disturbed mind and racial hatred.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 17:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      I do not think above statement by user Lachitbarphukan should be taken into account as because he is Ahom, and according to him Ahom people have been occupying the Western Assam region since 1617 CE.
      I think Bibliotheca Indica - Volume 154 - Page 132 is the oldest record of the usage of Western Assam as this is a translation of original Persian - which also indicates Western Assam was used even before the Ahom occupation of the region began.
      Mussal (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
      • First, Hussein Shah was not Mughal. Babur established the Mughal empire in 1526, whereas this invasion by Hussein Shah took place in 1498.
      • Second, Hussein Shah called his new conquest Kamru (from the coins he minted at his victory), not western Assam. Western Assam is given in parenthesis, and added by the authors.
      • Third, it could not have been called "Western Assam" in 1498 because the Kingdom of Assam was not named yet. There is no evidence of the use of the name "Assam" ("Asam", "Acham" etc) before Sankardeva.
      • Yes, during British times, "Western Assam" the older use, which gave way to "Lower Assam".
      • If you are Kurmaa's sock puppet, you too will get blocked.
      Chaipau (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

      • This assamonline thread is probably the longest discussions among indigenous people of Western Assam on current problem.
      • Why Tai-Ahom user Chaipau in Wikipedia is pushing for Lower Assam?
      Mussal (talk) 20:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
      The point is, you are pushing for "Western Assam". You are campaigning for "Lower Assam" is derogatory here. Will you confirm that you are not Kurmaa's sock puppet? Chaipau (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

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