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Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

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  • Agniveer
    Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? Namaste Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 16, 2012
      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

      Namaste

      Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

      Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

      We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

      But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

      Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

      We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

      A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

      We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
      Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
      And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

      Many Dhanyavad

      Yours humbly
      Agni
    • Kewal Ahluwalia
      Please read this. Lets us forget for a very little vile that Shudra or chandal, chura or chamar, or banghi and any body of any lower caste male or femal are
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
        Please read this.
        Lets us forget for a very little vile that Shudra or chandal, chura or chamar, or banghi and any body of any lower caste male or femal are not eligible to study, discuss or even recite Vedas. We who think that we are of upper class would not not even allowe them to drink water from a pot belonging to an upper class family. Vedas are universal and are for all Human beings. There is no mention in Vedas that only for selected people.
        Thanks.
        Kewal Ahluwalia 
         
        HISAR: In a macabre act of caste violence, a Dalit youth in Saniyana village was attacked with a sharp-edged weapon and had his arm nearly chopped off for drinking water from an earthen pot belonging to an upper caste family.

        While doctors have stitched up his arm, the police arrested one Rajender of Daulatpur village and booked him under SC/ST Act.

        Police sources said that Pappu first inquired about the caste of the victim, Rajesh Kumar, before attacking him.

        The attack comes within two years of a violent caste clash in Mirchpur in Hisar district in which two Dalits - a physically challenged girl and her septuagenarian father -were burnt to death and 18 Dalit homes were set on fire by a mob belonging to the Jat community.

        Rajesh Kumar, 31, was on his way to neighbouring Daulatpur village on a tractor-trolley along with 14 others, when he felt thirsty and stopped to look for water.

        "Rajesh drank water from an earthen pot lying in a field. On seeing this, a farmer, Rajender alias Pappu, abused him while passing caste-related remarks against him for touching the earthen pot. Not stopping at that, Pappu then attacked him with a sharp edged weapon, almost severing his hand and inflicting serious injuries on him," said Harish Bhardwaj, the district police spokesperson, adding that the weapon has been recovered.

        Harbouring apprehensions of tension and violence in the village after the attack, the victim, Rajesh, told TOI, "Strict action should be taken against the accused but I want peace in my village."

        He also expressed shock over the practice of untouchability even in this modern age. Rajesh is the sole bread earner in the family as his younger brother is suffering from a serious mental disorder while he lost his parents a few years back. Adeputy superintendent of police rank official has been entrusted to probe the incident.
        Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
        Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
        Missionary of the Arya Samaj
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Agniveer
        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38 PM
        Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

         

        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 


        Namaste

        Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

        Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

        We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

        But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

        Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

        We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

        A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

        We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
        Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
        And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

        Many Dhanyavad

        Yours humbly
        Agni

      • Ashwini Kumar
        Namaste Agniveer Ji   Don t expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
          Namaste Agniveer Ji
           
          Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
           
          Ashwini

          From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
          To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
          Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

           
          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

          Namaste

          Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

          Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

          We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

          But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

          Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

          We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

          A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

          We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
          Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
          And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

          Many Dhanyavad

          Yours humbly
          Agni


        • Kewal Ahluwalia
          ... From: Ashwini Kumar To: Agniveer ; aryayouthgroup ; Aryasamaj Online ; FHRS_USA Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline]
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
            
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:44 AM
            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

             

            Namaste Agniveer Ji
             
            Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
             
            Ashwini

            From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
            To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
            Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

             
            Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

            Namaste

            Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

            Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

            We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

            But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

            Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

            We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

            A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

            We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
            Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
            Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
            And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

            Many Dhanyavad

            Yours humbly
            Agni


          • Kewal Ahluwalia
            I have been telling them that these people do not have any answers. Only irrelevant questions. I have question for these people, If those born as shudra or
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
              

              I have been telling them that these people do not have any answers. Only irrelevant questions. I have question for these people,  If those born as shudra or chandal, chura or bhengi, lower cast or dalit touches the Vedas will the Vdeas be contaminated?

               
              Kewal Ahluwalia.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 8:44 AM
              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

               

              Namaste Agniveer Ji
               
              Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
               
              Ashwini

              From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
              To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
              Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

               
              Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

              Namaste

              Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

              Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

              We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

              But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

              Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

              We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

              A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

              We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
              Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
              Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
              And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

              Many Dhanyavad

              Yours humbly
              Agni


            • Patanjali Rambrich
              Namaste   Swami Dayananda said however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule . The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                Namaste
                 
                Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                 
                Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                 
                Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                 
                We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                 
                Patanjali

                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                 
                Namaste Agniveer Ji
                 
                Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                 
                Ashwini

                From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                 
                Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                Namaste

                Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                Many Dhanyavad

                Yours humbly
                Agni


              • Dr. Satish Prakash
                Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don t
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                  Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                  Namaste. 

                  Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya

                  Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula

                  Missionary of the Arya Samaj



                  --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                  From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                  To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                   

                  Namaste Agniveer Ji
                   
                  Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                   
                  Ashwini

                  From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                  To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                  Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                   
                  Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                  Namaste

                  Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                  Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                  We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                  But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                  Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                  We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                  A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                  We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                  Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                  Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                  And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                  Many Dhanyavad

                  Yours humbly
                  Agni


                • Agniveer
                  Namaste I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                    Namaste

                    I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an equally unambiguous answer that can be understood and explained even to a 5 year old kid.

                    After all for someone who has been instrumental in making thousands of ex-Muslims, so-called Dalits and women study/discuss and recite Vedas, I believe I need to know whether I have doing a Mahapaap or a Mahapunya? 

                    I repeat the questions for our revered scholars:

                    Is it true that:
                    1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                    2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                    3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                    Humbly yours
                    Agni



                    On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:
                    Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                    Namaste. 

                    Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya

                    Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula

                    Missionary of the Arya Samaj



                    --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                    From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                    Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                    To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                     

                    Namaste Agniveer Ji
                     
                    Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                     
                    Ashwini

                    From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                    To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                    Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                     
                    Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                    Namaste

                    Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                    Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                    We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                    But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                    Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                    We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                    A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                    We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                    Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                    Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                    And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                    Many Dhanyavad

                    Yours humbly
                    Agni



                  • Ashwini Kumar
                    Bhai Patanjali,   You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?   Why don t you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                      Bhai Patanjali,
                       
                      You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                       
                      Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                       
                      Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                       
                      Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                       
                      Ashwini

                      From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                      To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                      Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                      Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                       
                      Namaste
                       
                      Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                       
                      Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                       
                      Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                       
                      We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                       
                      Patanjali
                      --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                      From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                      Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                      To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                       
                      Namaste Agniveer Ji
                       
                      Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                       
                      Ashwini
                      From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                      To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                      Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                       
                      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                      Namaste

                      Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                      Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                      We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                      But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                      Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                      We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                      A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                      We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                      Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                      And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                      Many Dhanyavad

                      Yours humbly
                      Agni
                    • Dr. Satish Prakash
                      Bhai Patanjali, Namaste   The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                        Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                         
                        The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                         
                        Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                         
                        Namaste

                        Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                        Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                        Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                        From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                        Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                        To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                         
                        Bhai Patanjali,
                         
                        You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                         
                        Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                         
                        Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                         
                        Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                         
                        Ashwini

                        From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                        To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                        Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                        Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                         
                        Namaste
                         
                        Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                         
                        Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                         
                        Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                         
                        We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                         
                        Patanjali
                        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                        From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                        Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                        To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                         
                        Namaste Agniveer Ji
                         
                        Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                         
                        Ashwini
                        From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                        To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                        Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                         
                        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                        Namaste

                        Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                        Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                        We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                        But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                        Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                        We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                        A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                        We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                        Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                        And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                        Many Dhanyavad

                        Yours humbly
                        Agni
                      • Patanjali Rambrich
                        Namaste Dr. Satesh   If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected. Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                          Namaste Dr. Satesh
                           
                          If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected.
                          Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current discussions. However, they should be addressed. It was Swami Dayananda who performed a Purva Paksha on the Hindu society to look at the forces that were subjugating the Hindu nation. Swami Dayananda founded the school of Hindu militancy to revive the dead spirit of India to usher in Swaraj. After the Indian freedom fighters lost the 1857 War of Independence the British subjected the Indian mass to the most heinous and barbaric punishment known to all civilized beings. Hindus became like sheeps, and India became a nation of slaves. See Veer Savarkar, 1857 the first War of India Independence.
                           
                          I have written extensively in support of Baba Ramdev and Ayodhya Prasad. Both are two Arya Samaj leaders who are working 24 hours to free Hindustan from foreign rule. Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current plight of Hindus in India and around the world? Why are Hindus from Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, Fiji, Malaysia, Uganda, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesh, etc. scattered all over the world?
                           
                          Swami Dayananda reformed the Hindu nation to stop conversion. Almost all the ideas that Swami Dayananda condemned were incorporated in the Constitution of India. The "caste system" is being supported by the "British Indian government". The British Indian government is govern by Sonia Miano Gandhi, Christians, Muslims, Communists, Maoist and external anti-Hindu forces. Hindus are being driven out of Kashmir and Kerala. More than 90 percent of Hindus have converted in the North East states. Please read Rajiv Malhotra book, Breaking India. We should work to remove these forces that are attacking our dharma.  
                          Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to another partition of India and the massive conversion of Hindus throughout the world?
                           
                          I have written in support of Agniveer conversion work.
                           
                          Hindus including many Arya Samajists are now aping and adopting the bad aspect of Western culture. Look at all the social issues in our community. Even, Hindu women are now consuming alcohol and having multiple partners. Are we following the ten principles of Arya Samaj?
                          Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current state of Hindus?
                           
                          I have condemned BJP leaders like "Hajpyee", Advani and Nitin Gadkari. Even, VHP leader Dr. Pravin Tagadia has opposed Shri Narendra Modi. I have criticized the VHP America. The cause of Hindu dharma should be greater than any leader. All leaders or organizations should be subjected to scrutiny. Only God is perfect. 
                           
                          It is my firm belief that Arya Samaj leaders need to perform a Purva Paksha on the Arya Samar movement.
                           
                          Bhai Ashwin you are an Arya Samajist. Swami Dayananda practiced debates.
                          Also, please note that most Hindus from the Caribbean were born of Puranic womb at some point of their lineage.
                           
                          We should work to make Hindu dharma like a steel ball where the forces attacking us will not look at us with an evil eye.
                           
                           
                          Patanjali
                           
                          j- On Fri, 2/17/12, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:

                          From: Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                          To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

                           
                          Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                           
                          The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                           
                          Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                           
                          Namaste

                          Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                          Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                          Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                          From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                          To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                           
                          Bhai Patanjali,
                           
                          You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                           
                          Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                           
                          Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                           
                          Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                           
                          Ashwini

                          From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                          To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                          Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                           
                          Namaste
                           
                          Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                           
                          Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                           
                          Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                           
                          We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                           
                          Patanjali
                          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                          From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                          To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                           
                          Namaste Agniveer Ji
                           
                          Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                           
                          Ashwini
                          From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                          To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                          Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                           
                          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                          Namaste

                          Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                          Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                          We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                          But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                          Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                          We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                          A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                          We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                          Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                          And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                          Many Dhanyavad

                          Yours humbly
                          Agni
                        • Ashwini Kumar
                          Namaste Bhai Rambrich,   You are not an Arya Samajist based on your postings on these forums. So who are you to tell Arya Samajists how to behave and what to
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 17, 2012
                            Namaste Bhai Rambrich,
                             
                            You are not an Arya Samajist based on your postings on these forums. So who are you to tell Arya Samajists how to behave and what to do? Were you appointed to do these things and we missed the announcement?
                             
                            I still don't understand why you are asking Arya Samajist why India is still governed by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. 
                             
                            Also you have not answered why Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                             
                            Shouldn't you be asking these questions of your fellow Puranics rather than giving long-winded and irrelevant answers?
                             
                            It seems you are starting to think like those Puranic Jackasses in the UK, all they can do is bray. I hope I am wrong about you thinking like them.
                             
                            Ashwini

                            From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                            To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>; Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                            Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:11:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                             
                            Namaste Dr. Satesh
                             
                            If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected.
                            Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current discussions. However, they should be addressed. It was Swami Dayananda who performed a Purva Paksha on the Hindu society to look at the forces that were subjugating the Hindu nation. Swami Dayananda founded the school of Hindu militancy to revive the dead spirit of India to usher in Swaraj. After the Indian freedom fighters lost the 1857 War of Independence the British subjected the Indian mass to the most heinous and barbaric punishment known to all civilized beings. Hindus became like sheeps, and India became a nation of slaves. See Veer Savarkar, 1857 the first War of India Independence.
                             
                            I have written extensively in support of Baba Ramdev and Ayodhya Prasad. Both are two Arya Samaj leaders who are working 24 hours to free Hindustan from foreign rule. Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current plight of Hindus in India and around the world? Why are Hindus from Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, Fiji, Malaysia, Uganda, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesh, etc. scattered all over the world?
                             
                            Swami Dayananda reformed the Hindu nation to stop conversion. Almost all the ideas that Swami Dayananda condemned were incorporated in the Constitution of India. The "caste system" is being supported by the "British Indian government". The British Indian government is govern by Sonia Miano Gandhi, Christians, Muslims, Communists, Maoist and external anti-Hindu forces. Hindus are being driven out of Kashmir and Kerala. More than 90 percent of Hindus have converted in the North East states. Please read Rajiv Malhotra book, Breaking India. We should work to remove these forces that are attacking our dharma.  
                            Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to another partition of India and the massive conversion of Hindus throughout the world?
                             
                            I have written in support of Agniveer conversion work.
                             
                            Hindus including many Arya Samajists are now aping and adopting the bad aspect of Western culture. Look at all the social issues in our community. Even, Hindu women are now consuming alcohol and having multiple partners. Are we following the ten principles of Arya Samaj?
                            Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current state of Hindus?
                             
                            I have condemned BJP leaders like "Hajpyee", Advani and Nitin Gadkari. Even, VHP leader Dr. Pravin Tagadia has opposed Shri Narendra Modi. I have criticized the VHP America. The cause of Hindu dharma should be greater than any leader. All leaders or organizations should be subjected to scrutiny. Only God is perfect. 
                             
                            It is my firm belief that Arya Samaj leaders need to perform a Purva Paksha on the Arya Samar movement.
                             
                            Bhai Ashwin you are an Arya Samajist. Swami Dayananda practiced debates.
                            Also, please note that most Hindus from the Caribbean were born of Puranic womb at some point of their lineage.
                             
                            We should work to make Hindu dharma like a steel ball where the forces attacking us will not look at us with an evil eye.
                             
                             
                            Patanjali
                             
                            j- On Fri, 2/17/12, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:

                            From: Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                            To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

                             
                            Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                             
                            The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                             
                            Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                             
                            Namaste
                            Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                            Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                            Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                            From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                            To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                             
                            Bhai Patanjali,
                             
                            You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                             
                            Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                             
                            Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                             
                            Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                             
                            Ashwini
                            From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                            To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                            Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                             
                            Namaste
                             
                            Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                             
                            Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                             
                            Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                             
                            We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                             
                            Patanjali
                            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                            From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                            Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                            To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                             
                            Namaste Agniveer Ji
                             
                            Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                             
                            Ashwini
                            From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                            To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                            Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                             
                            Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                            Namaste

                            Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                            Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                            We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                            But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                            Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                            We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                            A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                            We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                            Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                            Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                            And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                            Many Dhanyavad

                            Yours humbly
                            Agni
                          • Agniveer
                            Namaste I believe that this topic can be discussed in a separate subject thread. For this thread, I request focus on birth-based rights only. People like me
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 18, 2012
                              Namaste

                              I believe that this topic can be discussed in a separate subject thread. For this thread, I request focus on birth-based rights only. People like me need to know if we have been doing a grave sin or a great Punya by encouraging people from all castes/ religion/ gender to study/recite/discuss Vedas. So I request scholars like revered Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji to tell us in brief:
                              Is it true that:
                              1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                              2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                              3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                              Humbly yours
                              Agni

                              On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:
                               

                              Namaste Bhai Rambrich,
                               
                              You are not an Arya Samajist based on your postings on these forums. So who are you to tell Arya Samajists how to behave and what to do? Were you appointed to do these things and we missed the announcement?
                               
                              I still don't understand why you are asking Arya Samajist why India is still governed by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. 
                               
                              Also you have not answered why Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                               
                              Shouldn't you be asking these questions of your fellow Puranics rather than giving long-winded and irrelevant answers?
                               
                              It seems you are starting to think like those Puranic Jackasses in the UK, all they can do is bray. I hope I am wrong about you thinking like them.
                               
                              Ashwini

                              From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                              To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>; Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                              Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:11:17 PM

                              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                               
                              Namaste Dr. Satesh
                               
                              If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected.
                              Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current discussions. However, they should be addressed. It was Swami Dayananda who performed a Purva Paksha on the Hindu society to look at the forces that were subjugating the Hindu nation. Swami Dayananda founded the school of Hindu militancy to revive the dead spirit of India to usher in Swaraj. After the Indian freedom fighters lost the 1857 War of Independence the British subjected the Indian mass to the most heinous and barbaric punishment known to all civilized beings. Hindus became like sheeps, and India became a nation of slaves. See Veer Savarkar, 1857 the first War of India Independence.
                               
                              I have written extensively in support of Baba Ramdev and Ayodhya Prasad. Both are two Arya Samaj leaders who are working 24 hours to free Hindustan from foreign rule. Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current plight of Hindus in India and around the world? Why are Hindus from Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, Fiji, Malaysia, Uganda, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesh, etc. scattered all over the world?
                               
                              Swami Dayananda reformed the Hindu nation to stop conversion. Almost all the ideas that Swami Dayananda condemned were incorporated in the Constitution of India. The "caste system" is being supported by the "British Indian government". The British Indian government is govern by Sonia Miano Gandhi, Christians, Muslims, Communists, Maoist and external anti-Hindu forces. Hindus are being driven out of Kashmir and Kerala. More than 90 percent of Hindus have converted in the North East states. Please read Rajiv Malhotra book, Breaking India. We should work to remove these forces that are attacking our dharma.  
                              Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to another partition of India and the massive conversion of Hindus throughout the world?
                               
                              I have written in support of Agniveer conversion work.
                               
                              Hindus including many Arya Samajists are now aping and adopting the bad aspect of Western culture. Look at all the social issues in our community. Even, Hindu women are now consuming alcohol and having multiple partners. Are we following the ten principles of Arya Samaj?
                              Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current state of Hindus?
                               
                              I have condemned BJP leaders like "Hajpyee", Advani and Nitin Gadkari. Even, VHP leader Dr. Pravin Tagadia has opposed Shri Narendra Modi. I have criticized the VHP America. The cause of Hindu dharma should be greater than any leader. All leaders or organizations should be subjected to scrutiny. Only God is perfect. 
                               
                              It is my firm belief that Arya Samaj leaders need to perform a Purva Paksha on the Arya Samar movement.
                               
                              Bhai Ashwin you are an Arya Samajist. Swami Dayananda practiced debates.
                              Also, please note that most Hindus from the Caribbean were born of Puranic womb at some point of their lineage.
                               
                              We should work to make Hindu dharma like a steel ball where the forces attacking us will not look at us with an evil eye.
                               
                               
                              Patanjali
                               
                              j- On Fri, 2/17/12, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:

                              From: Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                              To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                              Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

                               
                              Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                               
                              The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                               
                              Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                               
                              Namaste
                              Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                              Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                              Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                              --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                              From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                              To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                               
                              Bhai Patanjali,
                               
                              You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                               
                              Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                               
                              Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                               
                              Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                               
                              Ashwini
                              From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                              To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                              Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                               
                              Namaste
                               
                              Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                               
                              Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                               
                              Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                               
                              We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                               
                              Patanjali
                              --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                              From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                              Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                              To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                               
                              Namaste Agniveer Ji
                               
                              Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                               
                              Ashwini
                              From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                              To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                              Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                               
                              Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                              Namaste

                              Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                              Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                              We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                              But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                              Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                              We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                              A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                              We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                              Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                              Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                              And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                              Many Dhanyavad

                              Yours humbly
                              Agni


                            • Patanjali Rambrich
                              Namaste Shri Agniveer   Thanks for deferring the issues I highlighted for another day. Yes, the issues you addressed are very important. However, there are
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 18, 2012
                                Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                 
                                Thanks for deferring the issues I highlighted for another day. Yes, the issues you addressed are very important. However, there are many Hindu organizations who have abandoned discrimination against Shudras and women. Yes, there are many Hindus who still discriminate against Shudras and women. The Constitution of India protects those who are being discriminated. However, there is a big issue when it comes to enforcement of the laws in India . This has to do with the British Indian administrators. India is the only nation on Earth that has reservation of seats in the governance of the nation for "backward" communities and women. Even, the most advance nations in Europe and the Americas do not have reservations for Africans or women. The original Constitution of America did not provide equal or voting rights for women. Also, Africans were relegated to second class citizens after the nation went to war. Only, in the 1960s were civil rights laws passed recognizing all American citizens as equal citizens. However, discrimination is still alive in America , Europe and other part of the world.
                                 
                                Hindus need to follow some of the basic principles of our dharma. A few are:
                                1. Tolerance
                                2. Respect
                                3. Logic
                                4. Reason
                                5. Introspection
                                6. Innovation
                                 
                                There were some individuals on this forum who accused Swami Dayananda of using "illegal drugs", etc. However, these individuals are also living in delusion. Where is the respect and tolerance? Hindus do not belief in striking anyone under the belt. Hindus engage in debates and discussions to resolve issues. Swami Dayananda was a master debater.
                                 
                                Many Native Americans invited the Europeans for a "smoke". The European were attacking and encroaching on Native Americans land. The Native Americans respected the land like a mother. The Native Americans invited these Europeans for discussions to resolve these issues. Everyone was required to “smoke the peace pipe”. However, the Native Americans did not perform Purva Paksha on the Europeans and the rest is history.
                                 
                                Hindu Dharma is not like still water. There were many churnings in our dharma.
                                Swami Dayananda performed introspection by contemplating on the Vedas inorder to formulate a plan to drive the foreigners out of Hindustan .
                                 
                                Swami Dayananda also was innovative by trying to package Hinduism like Christianity. The Christians were throwing stones at Hindus by claiming that Hindus were worshiping Idols (Murti), many Gods, many Shaastras, involve in rituals, etc. However, Swami Dayananda picked-up those stones and pelted them back at the Christians by delving into the Vedas and counteracting the Christians. His motive was to counteract Christian conversion. 
                                 
                                Great Hindu patriots like Raja Shivaji Maharaj, Guru Gobind Singh, and Raja Rana Partap also had to amend the Hindu codes of war to protect Hindu dharma from being wiped out form Hindustan . The Jihadi Muslims were using adharmic means to defeat the Hindus. So, these leaders also had to adapt some of these techniques. These techniques were also selectively used in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. A civilization that doe not introspect and innovate cannot survive for too long.
                                 
                                Swami Dayananda calculated the date of the Vedas as approximately 1.9 billion years old. Hindus must be doing something right to have survived for such as long time. It all goes back to introspection and innovation. After the Greeks, Roman, etc. adopted Christianity their civilizations were relegated to the Museum. After the Egyptians, Persians ( Iran and Iraq ), etc. adapted Islam their civilizations were also relegated to the museum. The Mayans, Incas, native Americans, etc. civilizations were also relegated to the museum after they adopted Christianity.
                                 
                                I lived in Florida for many years. There are some individuals there who live in gated communities. Some of these individuals are totally isolated from the rest of the world and totally unfamiliar with the issues in our community. However, some of these individuals give lengthy lectures to Hindus on what is right and what is not right. Knowledge is not the only means of addressing an issue. One must also be familiar with the daily pains in our community.
                                 
                                India is the only nation on Earth that has not abandoned its ancient civilization or dharma. Swami Dayananda palyed a great role in saving Hindu dharma. However, the world has changed since the time of Swami Dayananda. Now, Universalism, technology, Westernization, Western education, materialism, mind control, identity loss, fraud, deception, terrorism, etc. are being used by the adharmic forces. It is time for another Purva Paksh to address these forces.
                                 
                                Patanjali  
                                 
                                 
                                --- On Sat, 2/18/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                To: "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                Cc: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Saturday, February 18, 2012, 4:19 AM

                                 
                                Namaste

                                I believe that this topic can be discussed in a separate subject thread. For this thread, I request focus on birth-based rights only. People like me need to know if we have been doing a grave sin or a great Punya by encouraging people from all castes/ religion/ gender to study/recite/discuss Vedas. So I request scholars like revered Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji to tell us in brief:
                                Is it true that:
                                1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                Humbly yours
                                Agni

                                On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Namaste Bhai Rambrich,
                                 
                                You are not an Arya Samajist based on your postings on these forums. So who are you to tell Arya Samajists how to behave and what to do? Were you appointed to do these things and we missed the announcement?
                                 
                                I still don't understand why you are asking Arya Samajist why India is still governed by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. 
                                 
                                Also you have not answered why Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                                 
                                Shouldn't you be asking these questions of your fellow Puranics rather than giving long-winded and irrelevant answers?
                                 
                                It seems you are starting to think like those Puranic Jackasses in the UK, all they can do is bray. I hope I am wrong about you thinking like them.
                                 
                                Ashwini

                                From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                                To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>; Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                                Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:11:17 PM

                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                 
                                Namaste Dr. Satesh
                                 
                                If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected.
                                Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current discussions. However, they should be addressed. It was Swami Dayananda who performed a Purva Paksha on the Hindu society to look at the forces that were subjugating the Hindu nation. Swami Dayananda founded the school of Hindu militancy to revive the dead spirit of India to usher in Swaraj. After the Indian freedom fighters lost the 1857 War of Independence the British subjected the Indian mass to the most heinous and barbaric punishment known to all civilized beings. Hindus became like sheeps, and India became a nation of slaves. See Veer Savarkar, 1857 the first War of India Independence.
                                 
                                I have written extensively in support of Baba Ramdev and Ayodhya Prasad. Both are two Arya Samaj leaders who are working 24 hours to free Hindustan from foreign rule. Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current plight of Hindus in India and around the world? Why are Hindus from Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, Fiji, Malaysia, Uganda, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesh, etc. scattered all over the world?
                                 
                                Swami Dayananda reformed the Hindu nation to stop conversion. Almost all the ideas that Swami Dayananda condemned were incorporated in the Constitution of India. The "caste system" is being supported by the "British Indian government". The British Indian government is govern by Sonia Miano Gandhi, Christians, Muslims, Communists, Maoist and external anti-Hindu forces. Hindus are being driven out of Kashmir and Kerala. More than 90 percent of Hindus have converted in the North East states. Please read Rajiv Malhotra book, Breaking India. We should work to remove these forces that are attacking our dharma.  
                                Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to another partition of India and the massive conversion of Hindus throughout the world?
                                 
                                I have written in support of Agniveer conversion work.
                                 
                                Hindus including many Arya Samajists are now aping and adopting the bad aspect of Western culture. Look at all the social issues in our community. Even, Hindu women are now consuming alcohol and having multiple partners. Are we following the ten principles of Arya Samaj?
                                Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current state of Hindus?
                                 
                                I have condemned BJP leaders like "Hajpyee", Advani and Nitin Gadkari. Even, VHP leader Dr. Pravin Tagadia has opposed Shri Narendra Modi. I have criticized the VHP America. The cause of Hindu dharma should be greater than any leader. All leaders or organizations should be subjected to scrutiny. Only God is perfect. 
                                 
                                It is my firm belief that Arya Samaj leaders need to perform a Purva Paksha on the Arya Samar movement.
                                 
                                Bhai Ashwin you are an Arya Samajist. Swami Dayananda practiced debates.
                                Also, please note that most Hindus from the Caribbean were born of Puranic womb at some point of their lineage.
                                 
                                We should work to make Hindu dharma like a steel ball where the forces attacking us will not look at us with an evil eye.
                                 
                                 
                                Patanjali
                                 
                                j- On Fri, 2/17/12, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:

                                From: Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

                                 
                                Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                                 
                                The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                                 
                                Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                                 
                                Namaste
                                Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                                Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                                Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                                 
                                Bhai Patanjali,
                                 
                                You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                                 
                                Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                                 
                                Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                                 
                                Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                                 
                                Ashwini
                                From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                                To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                 
                                Namaste
                                 
                                Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                                 
                                Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                                 
                                Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                                 
                                We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                                 
                                Patanjali
                                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                 
                                Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                 
                                Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                 
                                Ashwini
                                From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                 
                                Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                Namaste

                                Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                Many Dhanyavad

                                Yours humbly
                                Agni

                              • Agniveer
                                Namaste Patanjaliji Please understand that I have not requested for deferring of the issue you have raised. My humble submission is that this issue should be
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 18, 2012
                                  Namaste Patanjaliji

                                  Please understand that I have not requested for deferring of the issue you have raised. My humble submission is that this issue should be raised with a different subject line that addresses this issue and not under a subject line which is less relevant. 

                                  In other words, your views should come out separately as a new mail with a fresh subject and not as a reply to some other mail. Because this only makes both the topics less important. 90% of people read a mail based on subject line.

                                  So we request you to share your thoughts in a fresh mail so that appropriate discussions among intellectuals can happen on the issues you have raised.

                                  Humbly yours
                                  Agni
                                   

                                  On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 9:47 PM, Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...> wrote:
                                  Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                   
                                  Thanks for deferring the issues I highlighted for another day. Yes, the issues you addressed are very important. However, there are many Hindu organizations who have abandoned discrimination against Shudras and women. Yes, there are many Hindus who still discriminate against Shudras and women. The Constitution of India protects those who are being discriminated. However, there is a big issue when it comes to enforcement of the laws in India. This has to do with the British Indian administrators. India is the only nation on Earth that has reservation of seats in the governance of the nation for "backward" communities and women. Even, the most advance nations in Europe and the Americas do not have reservations for Africans or women. The original Constitution of America did not provide equal or voting rights for women. Also, Africans were relegated to second class citizens after the nation went to war. Only, in the 1960s were civil rights laws passed recognizing all American citizens as equal citizens. However, discrimination is still alive in America, Europe and other part of the world.
                                   
                                  Hindus need to follow some of the basic principles of our dharma. A few are:
                                  1. Tolerance
                                  2. Respect
                                  3. Logic
                                  4. Reason
                                  5. Introspection
                                  6. Innovation
                                   
                                  There were some individuals on this forum who accused Swami Dayananda of using "illegal drugs", etc. However, these individuals are also living in delusion. Where is the respect and tolerance? Hindus do not belief in striking anyone under the belt. Hindus engage in debates and discussions to resolve issues. Swami Dayananda was a master debater.
                                   
                                  Many Native Americans invited the Europeans for a "smoke". The European were attacking and encroaching on Native Americans land. The Native Americans respected the land like a mother. The Native Americans invited these Europeans for discussions to resolve these issues. Everyone was required to “smoke the peace pipe”. However, the Native Americans did not perform Purva Paksha on the Europeans and the rest is history.
                                   
                                  Hindu Dharma is not like still water. There were many churnings in our dharma.
                                  Swami Dayananda performed introspection by contemplating on the Vedas inorder to formulate a plan to drive the foreigners out of Hindustan.
                                   
                                  Swami Dayananda also was innovative by trying to package Hinduism like Christianity. The Christians were throwing stones at Hindus by claiming that Hindus were worshiping Idols (Murti), many Gods, many Shaastras, involve in rituals, etc. However, Swami Dayananda picked-up those stones and pelted them back at the Christians by delving into the Vedas and counteracting the Christians. His motive was to counteract Christian conversion. 
                                   
                                  Great Hindu patriots like Raja Shivaji Maharaj, Guru Gobind Singh, and Raja Rana Partap also had to amend the Hindu codes of war to protect Hindu dharma from being wiped out form Hindustan. The Jihadi Muslims were using adharmic means to defeat the Hindus. So, these leaders also had to adapt some of these techniques. These techniques were also selectively used in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. A civilization that doe not introspect and innovate cannot survive for too long.
                                   
                                  Swami Dayananda calculated the date of the Vedas as approximately 1.9 billion years old. Hindus must be doing something right to have survived for such as long time. It all goes back to introspection and innovation. After the Greeks, Roman, etc. adopted Christianity their civilizations were relegated to the Museum. After the Egyptians, Persians (Iran and Iraq), etc. adapted Islam their civilizations were also relegated to the museum. The Mayans, Incas, native Americans, etc. civilizations were also relegated to the museum after they adopted Christianity.
                                   
                                  I lived in Florida for many years. There are some individuals there who live in gated communities. Some of these individuals are totally isolated from the rest of the world and totally unfamiliar with the issues in our community. However, some of these individuals give lengthy lectures to Hindus on what is right and what is not right. Knowledge is not the only means of addressing an issue. One must also be familiar with the daily pains in our community.
                                   
                                  India is the only nation on Earth that has not abandoned its ancient civilization or dharma. Swami Dayananda palyed a great role in saving Hindu dharma. However, the world has changed since the time of Swami Dayananda. Now, Universalism, technology, Westernization, Western education, materialism, mind control, identity loss, fraud, deception, terrorism, etc. are being used by the adharmic forces. It is time for another Purva Paksh to address these forces.
                                   
                                  Patanjali  
                                   
                                   
                                  --- On Sat, 2/18/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                  From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>

                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  To: "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                  Cc: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Saturday, February 18, 2012, 4:19 AM

                                   
                                  Namaste

                                  I believe that this topic can be discussed in a separate subject thread. For this thread, I request focus on birth-based rights only. People like me need to know if we have been doing a grave sin or a great Punya by encouraging people from all castes/ religion/ gender to study/recite/discuss Vedas. So I request scholars like revered Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji to tell us in brief:
                                  Is it true that:
                                  1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                  3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                  Humbly yours
                                  Agni

                                  On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Namaste Bhai Rambrich,
                                   
                                  You are not an Arya Samajist based on your postings on these forums. So who are you to tell Arya Samajists how to behave and what to do? Were you appointed to do these things and we missed the announcement?
                                   
                                  I still don't understand why you are asking Arya Samajist why India is still governed by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. 
                                   
                                  Also you have not answered why Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                                   
                                  Shouldn't you be asking these questions of your fellow Puranics rather than giving long-winded and irrelevant answers?
                                   
                                  It seems you are starting to think like those Puranic Jackasses in the UK, all they can do is bray. I hope I am wrong about you thinking like them.
                                   
                                  Ashwini

                                  From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                                  To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>; Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                                  Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:11:17 PM

                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                   
                                  Namaste Dr. Satesh
                                   
                                  If the four points I have highlighted are inaccurate I stand corrected.
                                  Maybe, these issues are not important or part of the current discussions. However, they should be addressed. It was Swami Dayananda who performed a Purva Paksha on the Hindu society to look at the forces that were subjugating the Hindu nation. Swami Dayananda founded the school of Hindu militancy to revive the dead spirit of India to usher in Swaraj. After the Indian freedom fighters lost the 1857 War of Independence the British subjected the Indian mass to the most heinous and barbaric punishment known to all civilized beings. Hindus became like sheeps, and India became a nation of slaves. See Veer Savarkar, 1857 the first War of India Independence.
                                   
                                  I have written extensively in support of Baba Ramdev and Ayodhya Prasad. Both are two Arya Samaj leaders who are working 24 hours to free Hindustan from foreign rule. Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current plight of Hindus in India and around the world? Why are Hindus from Guyana, Trinidad, Suriname, Fiji, Malaysia, Uganda, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesh, etc. scattered all over the world?
                                   
                                  Swami Dayananda reformed the Hindu nation to stop conversion. Almost all the ideas that Swami Dayananda condemned were incorporated in the Constitution of India. The "caste system" is being supported by the "British Indian government". The British Indian government is govern by Sonia Miano Gandhi, Christians, Muslims, Communists, Maoist and external anti-Hindu forces. Hindus are being driven out of Kashmir and Kerala. More than 90 percent of Hindus have converted in the North East states. Please read Rajiv Malhotra book, Breaking India. We should work to remove these forces that are attacking our dharma.  
                                  Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to another partition of India and the massive conversion of Hindus throughout the world?
                                   
                                  I have written in support of Agniveer conversion work.
                                   
                                  Hindus including many Arya Samajists are now aping and adopting the bad aspect of Western culture. Look at all the social issues in our community. Even, Hindu women are now consuming alcohol and having multiple partners. Are we following the ten principles of Arya Samaj?
                                  Do you think if Swami Dayananda was alive today he would close his eyes to the current state of Hindus?
                                   
                                  I have condemned BJP leaders like "Hajpyee", Advani and Nitin Gadkari. Even, VHP leader Dr. Pravin Tagadia has opposed Shri Narendra Modi. I have criticized the VHP America. The cause of Hindu dharma should be greater than any leader. All leaders or organizations should be subjected to scrutiny. Only God is perfect. 
                                   
                                  It is my firm belief that Arya Samaj leaders need to perform a Purva Paksha on the Arya Samar movement.
                                   
                                  Bhai Ashwin you are an Arya Samajist. Swami Dayananda practiced debates.
                                  Also, please note that most Hindus from the Caribbean were born of Puranic womb at some point of their lineage.
                                   
                                  We should work to make Hindu dharma like a steel ball where the forces attacking us will not look at us with an evil eye.
                                   
                                   
                                  Patanjali
                                   
                                  j- On Fri, 2/17/12, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:

                                  From: Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                  Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:55 PM

                                   
                                  Bhai Patanjali, Namaste
                                   
                                  The questions you raise do not help the cause, the common cause.   Arya Samaj is re-converting people back to Hinduism.  See the AGNIVEER page for facts and statistics.  I agree with Bhai Ashwini.  The RSS-VHP-BJP is numerically stronger than the Arya Samaj.  Why is Sonia still ruling India when RSS Shakhas are so many and so strong?
                                   
                                  Bhai Patan, I advise restraint.   Dont bash the Arya Samaj.  Help it to be strong.  You are emerging as a strong Caribbean Hindu leader.  Dont mess up your image.
                                   
                                  Namaste
                                  Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                                  Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                                  Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                                  --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                  From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  To: "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 12:49 PM

                                   
                                  Bhai Patanjali,
                                   
                                  You seem to be picking on Arya Samaj. Why?
                                   
                                  Why don't you ask the Puranics why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school? 
                                   
                                  Also Puranics from India living in America do not want to associate with Puranics from the Caribbean and other PIO nations.
                                   
                                  Shouldn't you be asking your fellow Puranics these questions? After all Puranics are many more in number and can make quantum changes if they want.
                                   
                                  Ashwini
                                  From: Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...>
                                  To: Agniveer <agniveer@...>; aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>; Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                  Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 9:31:50 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                   
                                  Namaste
                                   
                                  Swami Dayananda said "however good foreign rule might be it is never better than indigenous rule". The Arya Samaj need to ask why India is still govern by a foreign Catholic lady who has not completed high school. Isn't this subject important? 
                                   
                                  Also, Swami Dayananda challenged Christianity and Islam. He had written two chapters in his book Satyarth Prakash on these religions. However, most  Arya Samajist leaders in the Western nations have never discussed these two chapters. Some Arya Samajist leaders consider this topic "taboo". They only focus on condemning Hindus as if Hindus are on the wrong path.
                                   
                                  Swami Dayananda started the Shuddi movement. How many Christians or Muslims have Arya Samajist leaders from the Western nations converted back to the Hindu fold?
                                   
                                  We should also address why many Arya Samajists from India living in America do not want to associate with Arya Samajists from the Caribbean and other PIO nations. Isn't this also discrimination?
                                   
                                  Patanjali
                                  --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                  From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                   
                                  Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                   
                                  Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                   
                                  Ashwini
                                  From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                  To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                  Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                   
                                  Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                  Namaste

                                  Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                  Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                  We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                  But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                  Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                  We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                  A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                  We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                  Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                  Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                  And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                  Many Dhanyavad

                                  Yours humbly
                                  Agni


                                • Agniveer
                                  PLEASE HELP PEOPLE LIKE ME Next Sunday 26 Feb 2012, we are undertaking an event where around 200 men and women, primarily Muslims and Christians, would embrace
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 19, 2012
                                    PLEASE HELP PEOPLE LIKE ME

                                    Next Sunday 26 Feb 2012, we are undertaking an event where around 200 men and women, primarily Muslims and Christians, would embrace Vedic Dharma. They also include many so-called Harijans who would from a birth perspective be categorized as Shudras, Chandals, Antyaj or Mlecchas etc.

                                    Now these people would reject the caste system, chant Vedic Mantras and promise to keep studying Vedas for their lives. Many from them would be trained in conducting Vedic rituals so that they can bring more people to Vedic Hindu fold. Many would become priests of local temples. Of course, they would follow the diet and conduct befitting a Brahmin. 

                                    We have been doing such programs regularly now and have brought several thousands to Vedic Hindu Dharma this way within last few months.

                                    Now my question is that am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting such activities and encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas?

                                    Or is it a great Punya or noble deed?

                                    I used to consider it a great Punya, but views of revered scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji seem to indicate that I have been doing a Mahapaapa by bringing Vedas to those who were debarred from Vedas by birth.

                                    As per them, regardless of one's good deeds, one cannot become a Brahmin. Jaati/ caste/ Varna is by birth alone. 

                                    I may have misinterpreted them given my humble mind and being not sure of being born directly from God's mouth.

                                    So I request these revered scholars to guide me what I should be doing. Should I stop these activities of making Vedic scholars from so-called low-castes as a Mahapaapa or continue even more enthusiastically as a Mahapunya.

                                    Please help me. 

                                    Humbly yours 
                                    Agni

                                    On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:
                                    Namaste

                                    I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an equally unambiguous answer that can be understood and explained even to a 5 year old kid.

                                    After all for someone who has been instrumental in making thousands of ex-Muslims, so-called Dalits and women study/discuss and recite Vedas, I believe I need to know whether I have doing a Mahapaap or a Mahapunya? 

                                    I repeat the questions for our revered scholars:

                                    Is it true that:
                                    1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                    2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                    3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                    Humbly yours
                                    Agni



                                    On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:
                                    Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                                    Namaste. 

                                    Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya

                                    Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula

                                    Missionary of the Arya Samaj



                                    --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                    From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                    To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                     

                                    Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                     
                                    Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                     
                                    Ashwini

                                    From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                    To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                    Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                                     
                                    Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                    Namaste

                                    Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                    Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                    We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                    But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                    Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                    We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                    A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                    We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                    Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                    Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                    And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                    Many Dhanyavad

                                    Yours humbly
                                    Agni




                                  • Patanjali Rambrich
                                    Namaste Shri Agniveer   Many so call Sudras and others were formerly Brahmins who refused to be converted by the swords of Islam. They abandoned their homes
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 19, 2012
                                      Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                       
                                      Many so call "Sudras and others" were formerly Brahmins who refused to be converted by the swords of Islam. They abandoned their homes and were displaced throughout the society. It is the moral duty of each citizen to prevent discriminated against anyone be it "low, schedule or backward" class. All citizens must be free to study whatever Shastras their ancestors studied in the Vedic age. This include bringing back all Muslims and Christians back to the Hindu fold. This is the only method of establishing Chakravati Ram Rajya. Those who practice discrimination against their Hindu brothers and sisters should be arrested and prosecuted. They should be fined monetarily. The penalty should be based on their economic status as defined in the Mahabharata and other Shastras. This fund should be given to all Pracharacks who are working to end discrimination or involve in re-conversion activity.
                                       
                                      Patanjali
                                       
                                       

                                      --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                      From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                      Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                      To: "Dr. Satish Prakash" <satishprakash@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>, "United Hindu Front" <unitedhindufront@...>
                                      Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 3:36 AM

                                       
                                      PLEASE HELP PEOPLE LIKE ME

                                      Next Sunday 26 Feb 2012, we are undertaking an event where around 200 men and women, primarily Muslims and Christians, would embrace Vedic Dharma. They also include many so-called Harijans who would from a birth perspective be categorized as Shudras, Chandals, Antyaj or Mlecchas etc.

                                      Now these people would reject the caste system, chant Vedic Mantras and promise to keep studying Vedas for their lives. Many from them would be trained in conducting Vedic rituals so that they can bring more people to Vedic Hindu fold. Many would become priests of local temples. Of course, they would follow the diet and conduct befitting a Brahmin. 

                                      We have been doing such programs regularly now and have brought several thousands to Vedic Hindu Dharma this way within last few months.

                                      Now my question is that am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting such activities and encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas?

                                      Or is it a great Punya or noble deed?

                                      I used to consider it a great Punya, but views of revered scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji seem to indicate that I have been doing a Mahapaapa by bringing Vedas to those who were debarred from Vedas by birth.

                                      As per them, regardless of one's good deeds, one cannot become a Brahmin. Jaati/ caste/ Varna is by birth alone. 

                                      I may have misinterpreted them given my humble mind and being not sure of being born directly from God's mouth.

                                      So I request these revered scholars to guide me what I should be doing. Should I stop these activities of making Vedic scholars from so-called low-castes as a Mahapaapa or continue even more enthusiastically as a Mahapunya.

                                      Please help me. 

                                      Humbly yours 
                                      Agni

                                      On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:
                                      Namaste

                                      I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an equally unambiguous answer that can be understood and explained even to a 5 year old kid.

                                      After all for someone who has been instrumental in making thousands of ex-Muslims, so-called Dalits and women study/discuss and recite Vedas, I believe I need to know whether I have doing a Mahapaap or a Mahapunya? 

                                      I repeat the questions for our revered scholars:

                                      Is it true that:
                                      1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                      2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                      3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                      Humbly yours
                                      Agni



                                      On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:
                                      Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                                      Namaste. 

                                      Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                                      Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                                      Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                                      --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                      From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                      To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                       
                                      Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                       
                                      Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                       
                                      Ashwini

                                      From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                      To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                      Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                                       
                                      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                      Namaste

                                      Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                      Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                      We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                      But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                      Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                      We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                      A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                      We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                      Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                      Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                      And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                      Many Dhanyavad

                                      Yours humbly
                                      Agni




                                    • Agniveer
                                      Namaste Patanjaliji We are indeed grateful to you for your so clear and noble views. It is blessings of noble people like you that keeps us going village to
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 19, 2012
                                        Namaste Patanjaliji

                                        We are indeed grateful to you for your so clear and noble views. It is blessings of noble people like you that keeps us going village to village in promoting Vedic dharma across all sections of society, and especially among those whom we have started calling as Dalit/ Shudra etc.

                                        We fully endorse your views. But at same time we are equally distressed by views of certain very influential scholars who seem to vocally justify birth-based denial of rights on Vedas on certain parentages and women. We may have erred in understanding their viewpoints and hence request them to briefly and clearly spell out their stand, as succinctly as you have done.

                                        Patanjalji, you can count upon us to fight any kind of discrimination in society including the ones you mentioned. 

                                        Dhanyavad
                                        Agni

                                        On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...> wrote:
                                        Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                         
                                        Many so call "Sudras and others" were formerly Brahmins who refused to be converted by the swords of Islam. They abandoned their homes and were displaced throughout the society. It is the moral duty of each citizen to prevent discriminated against anyone be it "low, schedule or backward" class. All citizens must be free to study whatever Shastras their ancestors studied in the Vedic age. This include bringing back all Muslims and Christians back to the Hindu fold. This is the only method of establishing Chakravati Ram Rajya. Those who practice discrimination against their Hindu brothers and sisters should be arrested and prosecuted. They should be fined monetarily. The penalty should be based on their economic status as defined in the Mahabharata and other Shastras. This fund should be given to all Pracharacks who are working to end discrimination or involve in re-conversion activity.
                                         
                                        Patanjali
                                        PS: Once again my question to revered scholars like Sri Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji:
                                        Am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting activities for encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas? 
                                         
                                         

                                        --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                        From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>

                                        Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                        To: "Dr. Satish Prakash" <satishprakash@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>, "United Hindu Front" <unitedhindufront@...>
                                        Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 3:36 AM

                                         
                                        PLEASE HELP PEOPLE LIKE ME

                                        Next Sunday 26 Feb 2012, we are undertaking an event where around 200 men and women, primarily Muslims and Christians, would embrace Vedic Dharma. They also include many so-called Harijans who would from a birth perspective be categorized as Shudras, Chandals, Antyaj or Mlecchas etc.

                                        Now these people would reject the caste system, chant Vedic Mantras and promise to keep studying Vedas for their lives. Many from them would be trained in conducting Vedic rituals so that they can bring more people to Vedic Hindu fold. Many would become priests of local temples. Of course, they would follow the diet and conduct befitting a Brahmin. 

                                        We have been doing such programs regularly now and have brought several thousands to Vedic Hindu Dharma this way within last few months.

                                        Now my question is that am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting such activities and encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas?

                                        Or is it a great Punya or noble deed?

                                        I used to consider it a great Punya, but views of revered scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji seem to indicate that I have been doing a Mahapaapa by bringing Vedas to those who were debarred from Vedas by birth.

                                        As per them, regardless of one's good deeds, one cannot become a Brahmin. Jaati/ caste/ Varna is by birth alone. 

                                        I may have misinterpreted them given my humble mind and being not sure of being born directly from God's mouth.

                                        So I request these revered scholars to guide me what I should be doing. Should I stop these activities of making Vedic scholars from so-called low-castes as a Mahapaapa or continue even more enthusiastically as a Mahapunya.

                                        Please help me. 

                                        Humbly yours 
                                        Agni

                                        On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:
                                        Namaste

                                        I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an equally unambiguous answer that can be understood and explained even to a 5 year old kid.

                                        After all for someone who has been instrumental in making thousands of ex-Muslims, so-called Dalits and women study/discuss and recite Vedas, I believe I need to know whether I have doing a Mahapaap or a Mahapunya? 

                                        I repeat the questions for our revered scholars:

                                        Is it true that:
                                        1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                        2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                        3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                        Humbly yours
                                        Agni



                                        On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:
                                        Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                                        Namaste. 

                                        Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                                        Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                                        Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                                        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                        From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                        To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                         
                                        Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                         
                                        Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                         
                                        Ashwini

                                        From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                        To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                        Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                                         
                                        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                        Namaste

                                        Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                        Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                        We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                        But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                        Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                        We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                        A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                        We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                        Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                        Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                        And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                        Many Dhanyavad

                                        Yours humbly
                                        Agni





                                      • Patanjali Rambrich
                                        Namaste Shri Agniveer   Hindus are second class citizens everywhere in the world except in the Americas, Canada, Australia and  Europe. However,
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 19, 2012
                                          Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                           
                                          Hindus are second class citizens everywhere in the world except in the Americas, Canada, Australia and  Europe. However, discrimination against Hindus in these nations are on the increase. Also, many Hindus in these nations do not report any discrimination due to being a docile community. The condition of Hindus is worse in the Caribbean, Fiji, Africa, Malaysia, Pakistan Bangladesh, Bhutan, etc. The primary reason why Hindus are second class citizen in these nations is that the Indian government is anti-Hindu. Hindus in India need to remove this puppet government. The Pope and other International forces are dictating the policies in India. The Arya Samaj should look at the bigger force attacking the Hindu society. When these forces are driven from the shores of India most of the issues in reference to the varna of a person will be addressed by Indian administrators. The first act by a Hindu control government should be to ban all religious conversions and monitor exchange/transfer of funds entering India.  
                                           
                                          Patanjali

                                          --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                          From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                          To: "Patanjali Rambrich" <prambrich@...>
                                          Cc: "Dr. Satish Prakash" <satishprakash@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>, "United Hindu Front" <unitedhindufront@...>
                                          Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 10:03 AM

                                          Namaste Patanjaliji

                                          We are indeed grateful to you for your so clear and noble views. It is blessings of noble people like you that keeps us going village to village in promoting Vedic dharma across all sections of society, and especially among those whom we have started calling as Dalit/ Shudra etc.

                                          We fully endorse your views. But at same time we are equally distressed by views of certain very influential scholars who seem to vocally justify birth-based denial of rights on Vedas on certain parentages and women. We may have erred in understanding their viewpoints and hence request them to briefly and clearly spell out their stand, as succinctly as you have done.

                                          Patanjalji, you can count upon us to fight any kind of discrimination in society including the ones you mentioned. 

                                          Dhanyavad
                                          Agni

                                          On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Patanjali Rambrich <prambrich@...> wrote:
                                          Namaste Shri Agniveer
                                           
                                          Many so call "Sudras and others" were formerly Brahmins who refused to be converted by the swords of Islam. They abandoned their homes and were displaced throughout the society. It is the moral duty of each citizen to prevent discriminated against anyone be it "low, schedule or backward" class. All citizens must be free to study whatever Shastras their ancestors studied in the Vedic age. This include bringing back all Muslims and Christians back to the Hindu fold. This is the only method of establishing Chakravati Ram Rajya. Those who practice discrimination against their Hindu brothers and sisters should be arrested and prosecuted. They should be fined monetarily. The penalty should be based on their economic status as defined in the Mahabharata and other Shastras. This fund should be given to all Pracharacks who are working to end discrimination or involve in re-conversion activity.
                                           
                                          Patanjali
                                          PS: Once again my question to revered scholars like Sri Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji:
                                          Am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting activities for encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas? 
                                           
                                           

                                          --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:

                                          From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>

                                          Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                          To: "Dr. Satish Prakash" <satishprakash@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>, "Ashwini Kumar" <ashwini_kumarr@...>, "United Hindu Front" <unitedhindufront@...>
                                          Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 3:36 AM

                                           
                                          PLEASE HELP PEOPLE LIKE ME

                                          Next Sunday 26 Feb 2012, we are undertaking an event where around 200 men and women, primarily Muslims and Christians, would embrace Vedic Dharma. They also include many so-called Harijans who would from a birth perspective be categorized as Shudras, Chandals, Antyaj or Mlecchas etc.

                                          Now these people would reject the caste system, chant Vedic Mantras and promise to keep studying Vedas for their lives. Many from them would be trained in conducting Vedic rituals so that they can bring more people to Vedic Hindu fold. Many would become priests of local temples. Of course, they would follow the diet and conduct befitting a Brahmin. 

                                          We have been doing such programs regularly now and have brought several thousands to Vedic Hindu Dharma this way within last few months.

                                          Now my question is that am I doing a Paapa (sin) by conducting such activities and encouraging men and women born to so-called Shudras/Chandals/Antyaj/ Mlecchas etc to chant/recite/study/discuss Vedas?

                                          Or is it a great Punya or noble deed?

                                          I used to consider it a great Punya, but views of revered scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji seem to indicate that I have been doing a Mahapaapa by bringing Vedas to those who were debarred from Vedas by birth.

                                          As per them, regardless of one's good deeds, one cannot become a Brahmin. Jaati/ caste/ Varna is by birth alone. 

                                          I may have misinterpreted them given my humble mind and being not sure of being born directly from God's mouth.

                                          So I request these revered scholars to guide me what I should be doing. Should I stop these activities of making Vedic scholars from so-called low-castes as a Mahapaapa or continue even more enthusiastically as a Mahapunya.

                                          Please help me. 

                                          Humbly yours 
                                          Agni

                                          On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Agniveer <agniveer@...> wrote:
                                          Namaste

                                          I am sure that scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji and Dr Raj Panditji will indeed bless millions of humble minds like me with a simple yes/ no or an equally unambiguous answer that can be understood and explained even to a 5 year old kid.

                                          After all for someone who has been instrumental in making thousands of ex-Muslims, so-called Dalits and women study/discuss and recite Vedas, I believe I need to know whether I have doing a Mahapaap or a Mahapunya? 

                                          I repeat the questions for our revered scholars:

                                          Is it true that:
                                          1. Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                          2. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine? 
                                          3. Are women prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras?

                                          Humbly yours
                                          Agni



                                          On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dr. Satish Prakash <satishprakash@...> wrote:
                                          Dr. Ranjeet Singh has been most vocal in asking everyone for proofs.  I wonder if he will respond to this email from Agniveerji.  Even if he does, I don't think it will be a simple answer of yes or no.

                                          Namaste. 

                                          Satish Prakash, PhD, Vyakaranacharya
                                          Founder-Acharya, Maharshi Dayananda Gurukula
                                          Missionary of the Arya Samaj


                                          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...> wrote:

                                          From: Ashwini Kumar <ashwini_kumarr@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                          To: "Agniveer" <agniveer@...>, "aryayouthgroup" <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>, "Aryasamaj Online" <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>, "FHRS_USA" <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 8:44 AM

                                           
                                          Namaste Agniveer Ji
                                           
                                          Don't expect any direct answers (they will avoid with irrelevant information) from these folks in this lifetime. Maybe some other janam.
                                           
                                          Ashwini

                                          From: Agniveer <agniveer@...>
                                          To: aryayouthgroup <aryayouthgroup@yahoogroups.com>; Aryasamaj Online <aryasamajonline@yahoogroups.com>; FHRS_USA <fhrs_usa@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:38:39 PM
                                          Subject: [aryasamajonline] Those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?

                                           
                                          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                          Namaste

                                          Layman like me are extremely fortunate to have access to so many scholars in these forums. Often we find them debating on theological topics like mode of worship, God being formless or with form, goal of life etc. And many scholars quote opulently from scriptures to justify their stands.

                                          Often humble minds of layman like me fail to understand these scholarly mails because we are not scholars. Now every one cannot become a scholar but everyone can definitely become a Dharmic person. So layman like me would like to know summary Dharmic stand on critical issues.

                                          We came across extremely scholarly mails of revered holy scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singhji and Dr Raj Panditji during some of these theological debates. Now our humble minds cannot comprehend the depth of knowledge of such mighty scholars from such profound mails. But from what we could understand, they were of opinion that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                          But as we are layman, we could have misunderstood the scholarly works of these experts due to limitations of our own humble minds.

                                          Thus we request scholars like Dr Ranjeet Singh ji, Dr Raj Panditji and others who understand and appreciate their views to tell us in plain, simple, brief language whether those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) are eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 

                                          We just require a brief clear answer, ideally a Yes/ No. Supporting references may be attached for scholars. But for millions of layman like me, an answer that is understood by a 5 year old kid would only be relevant. Specially people like me who are working in anti-casteism and women rights activities and thereby encouraging not only Hindus of all castes but even women to study Vedas and reject caste-system, a simple reply would be very essential.

                                          A silence in this regard would only imply that whatever people like me have interpreted from their scholarly mails is actually right and that they indeed believe that those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (or mother) cannot study/ discuss/ recite Vedas. And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine. Also women are prohibited from studying/ reciting/ discussing Vedic mantras.

                                          We keenly await a brief, simple, straight answer to our doubt from these revered scholars:
                                          Can those born to Shudra/ Chandal father (and/or mother) be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas? 
                                          Can a woman be eligible to study/ discuss/ recite Vedas?
                                          And for those who do so, there should be punishment, either human or divine?

                                          Many Dhanyavad

                                          Yours humbly
                                          Agni





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