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Consciouness

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  • Bernard Mc Garry
    Dear all, It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear in mind that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 29, 2011
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      Dear all,

      It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear in mind
      that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will never
      achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon chips. The
      nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial 'self
      awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.

      Yours

      Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daniel
      Your statement that Consciousness is 100% a spiritual function , is based on what independently reproducable facts? The future is not set and not predictable,
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 30, 2011
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        Your statement that "Consciousness is 100% a spiritual function", is based on what independently reproducable facts? The future is not set and not predictable, so you cannot say what will be developed in the future. I for one have seen no direct evidence of spiritual function in the brains mechanisms. It it all just a matter of complex interaction of cells. It is only a matter of time before we figure out how it works.

        Dan


        --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Mc Garry <buz90a@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear all,
        >
        > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear in mind
        > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will never
        > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon chips. The
        > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial 'self
        > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
        >
        > Yours
        >
        > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Daniel
        I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function . I could make the statement true human
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 30, 2011
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          I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".

          I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100% biology/cell based".

          In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.


          Dan

          --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Mc Garry <buz90a@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear all,
          >
          > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear in mind
          > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will never
          > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon chips. The
          > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial 'self
          > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
          >
          > Yours
          >
          > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jim Bromer
          What you mean is that you do not see evidence of a spiritual function that convinced you. Evidence does not have to be overwhelming to be examined. If you
          Message 4 of 16 , May 1, 2011
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            What you mean is that you do not see evidence of a spiritual function that
            convinced you. Evidence does not have to be overwhelming to be examined.
            If you disregarded all evidence that was initially presented to you, you
            would have to disregard all subsequent evidence as well. In other words if
            you simply issue blanket denials of the significance of initial impressions
            then you would be denying all impressions.

            Now I might say that I have seen no evidence of aliens from outer space
            taking world businesses over. However, that is not the same as saying that
            I have never seen any evidence of the possibility that alien life from
            another planet might exist. Carl Sagan's billions and billions of stars for
            example may be taken as evidence of the possibility that life off this
            planet might exist.

            This issue of what may count as initial evidence is a proper AI question. I
            believe that the questions of what constitutes enough specification
            or generalization and how much open mindedness would be best for moving
            toward greater insight is major issue. Although I cannot answer those
            questions I have found a opening here. One is found by restating the
            assertion as a possibility and the other is a play between
            generalization and specification. So if there is no strong evidence for a
            strong assertion it can be weakened to a statement of possibility. And if
            specific evidence does not exist (the aliens from Andromeda announced their
            intention to take over Google) then a statement may be made more general (is
            there a possibility that aliens exist on other planets in other star
            systems?)

            The method of greater generalization however, seems to stand in contrast to
            the original statement that all mind (or consciousness) is spiritual. That
            statement seems to suffer from being too strong and too general. However,
            the subject of the excess of generalization is that "all consciousness is
            spiritual". If someone said that some conscious thoughts are spiritual, its
            denial would seem more absurd because many people do feel that the concept
            of spirituality makes sense to them. So the strategy of making a statement
            more general seems to conflict with predicate generalization of formal logic
            that excludes the possibility that there may be more than one galaxy of
            generalization to an idea. The statement that "all consciousness is..." is
            a statement of absolute generalization. However, it actually narrows our
            choices of evidence because we would have to find evidence of the assertion
            for all consciousness! If we say that "some consciousness is..." we
            actually have more possible evidence to choose from because only a few cases
            have to be demonstrated to support the statement. I haven't quite figured
            this out, but it seems like it might be important.

            Jim Bromer
            On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Daniel <daniel.burke@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > Your statement that "Consciousness is 100% a spiritual function", is based
            > on what independently reproducable facts? The future is not set and not
            > predictable, so you cannot say what will be developed in the future. I for
            > one have seen no direct evidence of spiritual function in the brains
            > mechanisms. It it all just a matter of complex interaction of cells. It is
            > only a matter of time before we figure out how it works.
            >
            >
            > Dan
            >
            >
            > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Mc Garry
            > <buz90a@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear all,
            > >
            > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear
            > in mind
            > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will
            > never
            > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon
            > chips. The
            > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial
            > 'self
            > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
            > >
            > > Yours
            > >
            > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bernard
            ... Colleagues. What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention the fact
            Message 5 of 16 , May 20, 2011
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              --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel" <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
              >
              > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100% biology/cell based".
              >
              > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
              >
              >
              > Dan
              >
              > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Mc Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear all,
              > >
              > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear in mind
              > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will never
              > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon chips. The
              > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial 'self
              > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
              > >
              > > Yours
              > >
              > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              Colleagues.

              What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
              I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky appears to have lost interest in it!


              Bernard
            • another_base_name2001-debase@yahoo.com
              Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play what-if scenarios
              Message 6 of 16 , May 22, 2011
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                Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                ours, in part because it has no language ?

                Bernard wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                > <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                > >
                > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                > biology/cell based".
                > >
                > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                > >
                > >
                > > Dan
                > >
                > > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Dear all,
                > > >
                > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                > do bear in mind
                > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                > you will never
                > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                > silicon chips. The
                > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                > artificial 'self
                > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                > > >
                > > > Yours
                > > >
                > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > Colleagues.
                >
                > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                > appears to have lost interest in it!
                >
                > Bernard
                >
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Gullatte
                I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                Message 7 of 16 , May 23, 2011
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                  I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                  accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                  themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                  adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                  intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                  reading its environment and having understanding of self.






                  ________________________________
                  From: "another_base_name2001-debase@..."
                  <another_base_name2001-debase@...>
                  To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness


                  Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                  sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                  'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                  Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                  If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                  alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                  consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                  ours, in part because it has no language ?

                  Bernard wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                  > <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                  > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                  > >
                  > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                  > biology/cell based".
                  > >
                  > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dan
                  > >
                  > > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                  > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear all,
                  > > >
                  > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                  > do bear in mind
                  > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                  > you will never
                  > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                  > silicon chips. The
                  > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                  > artificial 'self
                  > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yours
                  > > >
                  > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > Colleagues.
                  >
                  > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                  > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                  > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                  > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                  > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                  > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                  > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                  > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                  > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                  > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                  > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                  > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                  > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                  > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                  > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                  > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                  > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                  > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                  > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                  > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                  > appears to have lost interest in it!
                  >
                  > Bernard
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Daniel
                  My big problem is that we do not know yet what consciousness is, therefore you cannot say it is or isn t anything. When research is done that provides enough
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 25, 2011
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                    My big problem is that we do not know yet what consciousness is, therefore you cannot say it is or isn't anything. When research is done that provides enough repeatable evidence to show what it is, then we can comment. Until then peoples opinions are just hot air (including mine).

                    Dan x


                    --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Jim Bromer <jimbromer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > What you mean is that you do not see evidence of a spiritual function that
                    > convinced you. Evidence does not have to be overwhelming to be examined.
                    > If you disregarded all evidence that was initially presented to you, you
                    > would have to disregard all subsequent evidence as well. In other words if
                    > you simply issue blanket denials of the significance of initial impressions
                    > then you would be denying all impressions.
                    >
                    > Now I might say that I have seen no evidence of aliens from outer space
                    > taking world businesses over. However, that is not the same as saying that
                    > I have never seen any evidence of the possibility that alien life from
                    > another planet might exist. Carl Sagan's billions and billions of stars for
                    > example may be taken as evidence of the possibility that life off this
                    > planet might exist.
                    >
                    > This issue of what may count as initial evidence is a proper AI question. I
                    > believe that the questions of what constitutes enough specification
                    > or generalization and how much open mindedness would be best for moving
                    > toward greater insight is major issue. Although I cannot answer those
                    > questions I have found a opening here. One is found by restating the
                    > assertion as a possibility and the other is a play between
                    > generalization and specification. So if there is no strong evidence for a
                    > strong assertion it can be weakened to a statement of possibility. And if
                    > specific evidence does not exist (the aliens from Andromeda announced their
                    > intention to take over Google) then a statement may be made more general (is
                    > there a possibility that aliens exist on other planets in other star
                    > systems?)
                    >
                    > The method of greater generalization however, seems to stand in contrast to
                    > the original statement that all mind (or consciousness) is spiritual. That
                    > statement seems to suffer from being too strong and too general. However,
                    > the subject of the excess of generalization is that "all consciousness is
                    > spiritual". If someone said that some conscious thoughts are spiritual, its
                    > denial would seem more absurd because many people do feel that the concept
                    > of spirituality makes sense to them. So the strategy of making a statement
                    > more general seems to conflict with predicate generalization of formal logic
                    > that excludes the possibility that there may be more than one galaxy of
                    > generalization to an idea. The statement that "all consciousness is..." is
                    > a statement of absolute generalization. However, it actually narrows our
                    > choices of evidence because we would have to find evidence of the assertion
                    > for all consciousness! If we say that "some consciousness is..." we
                    > actually have more possible evidence to choose from because only a few cases
                    > have to be demonstrated to support the statement. I haven't quite figured
                    > this out, but it seems like it might be important.
                    >
                    > Jim Bromer
                    > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Daniel <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your statement that "Consciousness is 100% a spiritual function", is based
                    > > on what independently reproducable facts? The future is not set and not
                    > > predictable, so you cannot say what will be developed in the future. I for
                    > > one have seen no direct evidence of spiritual function in the brains
                    > > mechanisms. It it all just a matter of complex interaction of cells. It is
                    > > only a matter of time before we figure out how it works.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, Bernard Mc Garry
                    > > <buz90a@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear all,
                    > > >
                    > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but do bear
                    > > in mind
                    > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so you will
                    > > never
                    > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon
                    > > chips. The
                    > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of artificial
                    > > 'self
                    > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                    > > >
                    > > > Yours
                    > > >
                    > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • James J Youlton Jr
                    I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time. We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 26, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time.

                      We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness are, but let’s instead look at our world’s most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part of our lives. I remember when there wasn’t an Internet, but now I can’t imagine life without it.

                      When something happens in the world, net traffic increases dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we haven’t realized it yet. We know we can’t control it any more and it is not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.

                      Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only question is, how do we say “Hello”?



                      From: Michael Gullatte
                      Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM
                      To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness


                      I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                      accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                      themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                      adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                      intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                      reading its environment and having understanding of self.

                      ________________________________
                      From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"
                      <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>
                      To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness

                      Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                      sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                      'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                      Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                      If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                      alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                      consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                      ours, in part because it has no language ?

                      Bernard wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                      > <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                      > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                      > >
                      > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                      > biology/cell based".
                      > >
                      > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dan
                      > >
                      > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                      > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Dear all,
                      > > >
                      > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                      > do bear in mind
                      > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                      > you will never
                      > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                      > silicon chips. The
                      > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                      > artificial 'self
                      > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                      > > >
                      > > > Yours
                      > > >
                      > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > Colleagues.
                      >
                      > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                      > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                      > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                      > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                      > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                      > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                      > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                      > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                      > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                      > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                      > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                      > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                      > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                      > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                      > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                      > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                      > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                      > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                      > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                      > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                      > appears to have lost interest in it!
                      >
                      > Bernard
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • another_base_name2001-debase@yahoo.com
                      I have this belief (rightly or wrongly) that once an entity can have knowledge of its surroundings and can undertake what-if scenarios in that environment
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 27, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I have this belief (rightly or wrongly) that once an entity can have
                        knowledge of its surroundings and can undertake 'what-if' scenarios in
                        that environment then that could be a measure of consciousness. Part of
                        the machinery required for this would then be proof by induction and
                        trial-and-error.

                        I agree Daniel, that right now it all seems to be hot-air, but I also
                        believe it possible to design an AI that can prove by induction and
                        trial and error. I don't possess one, but I have been grappling with how
                        to do it for a while.

                        Would that AI then be the source of the repeatable evidence you rightly
                        ask for Daniel ?

                        Daniel wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > My big problem is that we do not know yet what consciousness is,
                        > therefore you cannot say it is or isn't anything. When research is
                        > done that provides enough repeatable evidence to show what it is, then
                        > we can comment. Until then peoples opinions are just hot air
                        > (including mine).
                        >
                        > Dan x
                        >
                        > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Jim Bromer
                        > <jimbromer@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > What you mean is that you do not see evidence of a spiritual
                        > function that
                        > > convinced you. Evidence does not have to be overwhelming to be examined.
                        > > If you disregarded all evidence that was initially presented to you, you
                        > > would have to disregard all subsequent evidence as well. In other
                        > words if
                        > > you simply issue blanket denials of the significance of initial
                        > impressions
                        > > then you would be denying all impressions.
                        > >
                        > > Now I might say that I have seen no evidence of aliens from outer space
                        > > taking world businesses over. However, that is not the same as
                        > saying that
                        > > I have never seen any evidence of the possibility that alien life from
                        > > another planet might exist. Carl Sagan's billions and billions of
                        > stars for
                        > > example may be taken as evidence of the possibility that life off this
                        > > planet might exist.
                        > >
                        > > This issue of what may count as initial evidence is a proper AI
                        > question. I
                        > > believe that the questions of what constitutes enough specification
                        > > or generalization and how much open mindedness would be best for moving
                        > > toward greater insight is major issue. Although I cannot answer those
                        > > questions I have found a opening here. One is found by restating the
                        > > assertion as a possibility and the other is a play between
                        > > generalization and specification. So if there is no strong evidence
                        > for a
                        > > strong assertion it can be weakened to a statement of possibility.
                        > And if
                        > > specific evidence does not exist (the aliens from Andromeda
                        > announced their
                        > > intention to take over Google) then a statement may be made more
                        > general (is
                        > > there a possibility that aliens exist on other planets in other star
                        > > systems?)
                        > >
                        > > The method of greater generalization however, seems to stand in
                        > contrast to
                        > > the original statement that all mind (or consciousness) is
                        > spiritual. That
                        > > statement seems to suffer from being too strong and too general.
                        > However,
                        > > the subject of the excess of generalization is that "all
                        > consciousness is
                        > > spiritual". If someone said that some conscious thoughts are
                        > spiritual, its
                        > > denial would seem more absurd because many people do feel that the
                        > concept
                        > > of spirituality makes sense to them. So the strategy of making a
                        > statement
                        > > more general seems to conflict with predicate generalization of
                        > formal logic
                        > > that excludes the possibility that there may be more than one galaxy of
                        > > generalization to an idea. The statement that "all consciousness
                        > is..." is
                        > > a statement of absolute generalization. However, it actually narrows our
                        > > choices of evidence because we would have to find evidence of the
                        > assertion
                        > > for all consciousness! If we say that "some consciousness is..." we
                        > > actually have more possible evidence to choose from because only a
                        > few cases
                        > > have to be demonstrated to support the statement. I haven't quite
                        > figured
                        > > this out, but it seems like it might be important.
                        > >
                        > > Jim Bromer
                        > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Daniel <daniel.burke@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your statement that "Consciousness is 100% a spiritual function",
                        > is based
                        > > > on what independently reproducable facts? The future is not set
                        > and not
                        > > > predictable, so you cannot say what will be developed in the
                        > future. I for
                        > > > one have seen no direct evidence of spiritual function in the brains
                        > > > mechanisms. It it all just a matter of complex interaction of
                        > cells. It is
                        > > > only a matter of time before we figure out how it works.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Dan
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc Garry
                        > > > <buz90a@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dear all,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                        > do bear
                        > > > in mind
                        > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                        > you will
                        > > > never
                        > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling silicon
                        > > > chips. The
                        > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                        > artificial
                        > > > 'self
                        > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yours
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • surya s.
                        Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still conscius and self aware ? Regards,
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 31, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still "conscius" and "self aware"?

                          Regards,
                          Surya Sumpeno
                          ***
                          --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com, "James J Youlton Jr" <youjaes@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time.
                          >
                          > We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness are, but let’s instead look at our world’s most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part of our lives. I remember when there wasn’t an Internet, but now I can’t imagine life without it.
                          >
                          > When something happens in the world, net traffic increases dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we haven’t realized it yet. We know we can’t control it any more and it is not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.
                          >
                          > Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only question is, how do we say “Hello”?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Michael Gullatte
                          > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM
                          > To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                          >
                          >
                          > I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                          > accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                          > themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                          > adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                          > intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                          > reading its environment and having understanding of self.
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"
                          > <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>
                          > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                          >
                          > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                          > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                          > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                          > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?
                          >
                          > If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                          > alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                          > consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                          > ours, in part because it has no language ?
                          >
                          > Bernard wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                          > > <daniel.burke@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                          > > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                          > > >
                          > > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                          > > biology/cell based".
                          > > >
                          > > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Dan
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                          > > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dear all,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                          > > do bear in mind
                          > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                          > > you will never
                          > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                          > > silicon chips. The
                          > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                          > > artificial 'self
                          > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yours
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > Colleagues.
                          > >
                          > > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                          > > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                          > > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                          > > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                          > > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                          > > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                          > > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                          > > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                          > > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                          > > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                          > > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                          > > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                          > > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                          > > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                          > > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                          > > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                          > > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                          > > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                          > > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                          > > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                          > > appears to have lost interest in it!
                          > >
                          > > Bernard
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Praveen Ritolia
                          And if Internet/AI/Computer become so intelligent that it starts having consciousness and reacts, there may be chance of Judgment Day ( wherein machines will
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 1, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            And if Internet/AI/Computer become so intelligent that it starts having consciousness and reacts, there may be chance of Judgment Day ( wherein machines will take control of the world ) Terminator ☺

                            ________________________________
                            From: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of surya s.
                            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:22 AM
                            To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness



                            Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still "conscius" and "self aware"?

                            Regards,
                            Surya Sumpeno
                            ***
                            --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com<mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "James J Youlton Jr" <youjaes@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time.
                            >
                            > We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness are, but let’s instead look at our world’s most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part of our lives. I remember when there wasn’t an Internet, but now I can’t imagine life without it.
                            >
                            > When something happens in the world, net traffic increases dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we haven’t realized it yet. We know we can’t control it any more and it is not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.
                            >
                            > Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only question is, how do we say “Hello”?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Michael Gullatte
                            > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM
                            > To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com<mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                            >
                            >
                            > I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                            > accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                            > themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                            > adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                            > intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                            > reading its environment and having understanding of self.
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"
                            > <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>
                            > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                            >
                            > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                            > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                            > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                            > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?
                            >
                            > If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                            > alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                            > consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                            > ours, in part because it has no language ?
                            >
                            > Bernard wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                            > > <daniel.burke@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                            > > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                            > > >
                            > > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                            > > biology/cell based".
                            > > >
                            > > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dan
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                            > > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dear all,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                            > > do bear in mind
                            > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                            > > you will never
                            > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                            > > silicon chips. The
                            > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                            > > artificial 'self
                            > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yours
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > Colleagues.
                            > >
                            > > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                            > > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                            > > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                            > > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                            > > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                            > > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                            > > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                            > > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                            > > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                            > > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                            > > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                            > > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                            > > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                            > > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                            > > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                            > > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                            > > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                            > > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                            > > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                            > > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                            > > appears to have lost interest in it!
                            > >
                            > > Bernard
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >


                            ________________________________
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Praveen Ritolia
                            And if Internet/AI/Computer become so intelligent that it starts having consciousness and reacts, there may be chance of Judgment Day ( wherein machines will
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 1, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              And if Internet/AI/Computer become so intelligent that it starts having consciousness and reacts, there may be chance of Judgment Day ( wherein machines will take control of the world ) Terminator ☺

                              Rgds,
                              Praveen

                              ________________________________
                              From: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of surya s.
                              Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:22 AM
                              To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness



                              Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still "conscius" and "self aware"?

                              Regards,
                              Surya Sumpeno
                              ***
                              --- In artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com<mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "James J Youlton Jr" <youjaes@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time.
                              >
                              > We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness are, but let’s instead look at our world’s most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part of our lives. I remember when there wasn’t an Internet, but now I can’t imagine life without it.
                              >
                              > When something happens in the world, net traffic increases dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we haven’t realized it yet. We know we can’t control it any more and it is not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.
                              >
                              > Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only question is, how do we say “Hello”?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Michael Gullatte
                              > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM
                              > To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com<mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                              >
                              >
                              > I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                              > accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                              > themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                              > adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                              > intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                              > reading its environment and having understanding of self.
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"
                              > <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>
                              > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                              >
                              > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                              > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                              > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                              > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?
                              >
                              > If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                              > alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                              > consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                              > ours, in part because it has no language ?
                              >
                              > Bernard wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                              > > <daniel.burke@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                              > > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                              > > >
                              > > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                              > > biology/cell based".
                              > > >
                              > > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Dan
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                              > > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear all,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                              > > do bear in mind
                              > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                              > > you will never
                              > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                              > > silicon chips. The
                              > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                              > > artificial 'self
                              > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yours
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > Colleagues.
                              > >
                              > > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                              > > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                              > > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                              > > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                              > > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                              > > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                              > > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                              > > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                              > > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                              > > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                              > > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                              > > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                              > > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                              > > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                              > > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                              > > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                              > > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                              > > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                              > > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                              > > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                              > > appears to have lost interest in it!
                              > >
                              > > Bernard
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >


                              ________________________________
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James J Youlton Jr
                              I imagine the Internet would be as conscious as you or I when we are asleep. Cheers, James Youlton From: surya s. Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 5:51 PM To:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 1, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I imagine the Internet would be as conscious as you or I when we are asleep.

                                Cheers,
                                James Youlton


                                From: surya s.
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 5:51 PM
                                To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness


                                Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still "conscius" and "self aware"?

                                Regards,
                                Surya Sumpeno
                                ***
                                --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com, "James J Youlton Jr" <youjaes@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I usually don’t comment here, but I would like to at this time.
                                >
                                > We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what consciousness and self awareness are, but let’s instead look at our world’s most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part of our lives. I remember when there wasn’t an Internet, but now I can’t imagine life without it.
                                >
                                > When something happens in the world, net traffic increases dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we haven’t realized it yet. We know we can’t control it any more and it is not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.
                                >
                                > Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only question is, how do we say “Hello”?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Michael Gullatte
                                > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM
                                > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                                >
                                >
                                > I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly
                                > accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes
                                > themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be
                                > adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true
                                > intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by
                                > reading its environment and having understanding of self.
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"
                                > <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>
                                > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                                >
                                > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of
                                > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play
                                > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.
                                > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?
                                >
                                > If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an
                                > alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve
                                > consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to
                                > ours, in part because it has no language ?
                                >
                                > Bernard wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"
                                > > <daniel.burke@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true
                                > > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".
                                > > >
                                > > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%
                                > > biology/cell based".
                                > > >
                                > > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Dan
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc
                                > > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dear all,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but
                                > > do bear in mind
                                > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so
                                > > you will never
                                > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling
                                > > silicon chips. The
                                > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of
                                > > artificial 'self
                                > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yours
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > Colleagues.
                                > >
                                > > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the
                                > > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention
                                > > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a
                                > > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain
                                > > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become
                                > > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason
                                > > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological
                                > > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect
                                > > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal
                                > > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying
                                > > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically
                                > > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and
                                > > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously
                                > > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not
                                > > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable
                                > > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as
                                > > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.
                                > > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in
                                > > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI
                                > > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky
                                > > appears to have lost interest in it!
                                > >
                                > > Bernard
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • cav edwards
                                ... I can see the idea that the internet could be self-aware and or conscious. I wonder if the net were able to do the above, would it have reached
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 3, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In the email thread I was thing this:
                                  > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of

                                  > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play

                                  > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.

                                  > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                                  I can see the idea that the internet could be self-aware and or conscious.
                                  I wonder if the net were able to do the above, would it have reached conciousness or self-awareness ?

                                  --- On Wed, 1/6/11, James J Youlton Jr <youjaes@...> wrote:

                                  From: James J Youlton Jr <youjaes@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                                  To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Wednesday, 1 June, 2011, 15:03
















                                   

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • cav edwards
                                  ... I can see the idea that the internet could be self-aware and or conscious. I wonder if the net were able to do the above, would it have reached
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 3, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In the email thread I was thing this:
                                    > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of

                                    > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play

                                    > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.

                                    > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                                    I can see the idea that the internet could be self-aware and or conscious.
                                    I wonder if the net were able to do the above, would it have reached conciousness or self-awareness ?

                                    Is it a sensible benchmark ?

                                    Is it still just conjecture, are we using the right language even !?!?!?!


                                    --- On Wed, 1/6/11, James J Youlton Jr <youjaes@...> wrote:

                                    From: James J Youlton Jr <youjaes@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness
                                    To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, 1 June, 2011, 15:03


























                                    I imagine the Internet would be as conscious as you or I when we are asleep.



                                    Cheers,

                                    James Youlton



                                    From: surya s.

                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 5:51 PM

                                    To: artificialintelligencegroup@yahoogroups.com

                                    Subject: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness



                                    Let say, all of the people in the world leave alone the Internet, nobody
                                    touch it. No one use it. Is the Internet still "conscius" and "self
                                    aware"?



                                    Regards,

                                    Surya Sumpeno

                                    ***

                                    --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com, "James J Youlton Jr" <youjaes@...> wrote:

                                    >

                                    > I usually donât comment here, but I would like to at this time.

                                    >

                                    > We can dance around the philosophical arguments as to what
                                    consciousness and self awareness are, but letâs instead look at our
                                    worldâs most promising example of true AI, the Internet. We as conscious
                                    and self aware beings are an integral part of this AI. We service it as
                                    it services us. We are symbiotic. The Internet helps us find each other
                                    and we give it vast amounts of information about ourselves. It is
                                    growing and learning about us as it becomes an ever more important part
                                    of our lives. I remember when there wasnât an Internet, but now I canât
                                    imagine life without it.

                                    >

                                    > When something happens in the world, net traffic increases
                                    dramatically, so is it self aware? Perhaps it is in some way and we
                                    havenât realized it yet. We know we canât control it any more and it is
                                    not our slave, we have kept it free. For me, the Internet is my best
                                    friend. It will answer any question for me, I need only ask. If I need a
                                    friend or a lover, it will help me find one, I need only ask.

                                    >

                                    > Is the Internet alive? Yes, the people make it alive, ever changing
                                    and growing. We have our perfect AI, ladies and gentlemen. The only
                                    question is, how do we say âHelloâ?

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > From: Michael Gullatte

                                    > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 7:15 PM

                                    > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com

                                    > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > I believe consciousness is self awareness which means that we do not truly

                                    > accomplish this at any certain age but at a time in which the person realizes

                                    > themselves and how they interact with their environment. True AI would be

                                    > adaptable and learning with changes in their environment just as true

                                    > intelligence adapts and reacts and predicts the happenings around itself by

                                    > reading its environment and having understanding of self.

                                    >

                                    > ________________________________

                                    > From: "mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com"

                                    > <mailto:another_base_name2001-debase%40yahoo.com>

                                    > To: mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com

                                    > Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 5:29:46 PM

                                    > Subject: Re: [Artificial Intelligence Group] Re: Consciouness

                                    >

                                    > Could human consciousness be considered the ability to make some kind of

                                    > sense of a current environment and then have the ability to play

                                    > 'what-if' scenarios with that information.

                                    > Is this potentially what consciousness is ?

                                    >

                                    > If that is the case - would taking a new-born baby and placing it in an

                                    > alien environment with no human contact mean that it would not achieve

                                    > consciousness on the same level as a child in an environment similar to

                                    > ours, in part because it has no language ?

                                    >

                                    > Bernard wrote:

                                    > >

                                    > >

                                    > >

                                    > >

                                    > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com

                                    > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Daniel"

                                    > > <daniel.burke@> wrote:

                                    > > >

                                    > > >

                                    > > > I would like to hear the evidence your have for the statement "true

                                    > > human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function".

                                    > > >

                                    > > > I could make the statement "true human consciousness is 100%

                                    > > biology/cell based".

                                    > > >

                                    > > > In which case AI using computers is perfectly possible.

                                    > > >

                                    > > >

                                    > > > Dan

                                    > > >

                                    > > > --- In mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com

                                    > > <mailto:artificialintelligencegroup%40yahoogroups.com>, Bernard Mc

                                    > > Garry <buz90a@> wrote:

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > > Dear all,

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > > It was very interesting to read the article on consciouness, but

                                    > > do bear in mind

                                    > > > > that true human consciounesses is 100% a spiritual function, so

                                    > > you will never

                                    > > > > achieve it using physical materials or programs controlling

                                    > > silicon chips. The

                                    > > > > nearest you will ever achieve to consciouness is some form of

                                    > > artificial 'self

                                    > > > > awareness' which in its' self is not a spiritual function.

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > > Yours

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > > Bernard McGarry, BSc. MSc.

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > >

                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    > > > >

                                    > > >

                                    > > Colleagues.

                                    > >

                                    > > What I wrote was a bit misleading in that I did not explain the

                                    > > interaction completly. So here are the details. I failed to mention

                                    > > the fact that it is a mutually inclusive event. Your consciouness is a

                                    > > combination of your spiritual soul/mind interacting with your brain

                                    > > biological cells. Biological cells by themselves cannot become

                                    > > consciouness. Think about what happens whenever you for some reason

                                    > > become unconsciouness, say a severe head injury...your biological

                                    > > brain cells are not functioning 'normally' in that they cannot connect

                                    > > to your spiritual soul/mind in order that you experience normal

                                    > > consciouness. The difficult part to this theory of mine is indentfying

                                    > > the 'interfacing mechanism' between the 2 components. Metaphorically

                                    > > speaking if you were 'on the interface' you could look eitherway and

                                    > > 'see' both the spiritual and the biological components. But obviously

                                    > > the spiritual side being very complex (to human beings) if not

                                    > > impossible to 'see'. IMOO it would be a start to build tools to enable

                                    > > us to 'see' beyond the currently recognised Electromagnet Spectrum, as

                                    > > we only 'see' a small fraction of the very short wavelength part of it.

                                    > > I am trying to put forward my theory in such a complex domain, in

                                    > > order to create a fresh look at improving the current rut that the AI

                                    > > community find themselves in for the last 30 years. Even Marvin Minsky

                                    > > appears to have lost interest in it!

                                    > >

                                    > > Bernard

                                    > >

                                    > >

                                    >

                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    >

                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >

                                    >

                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























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