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Re: [art_education] Re: At a loss!

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  • Keisha Pegues
    Love it! ... From: Robin Subject: [art_education] Re: At a loss! To: art_education@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010,
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 11, 2010
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      Love it!

      --- On Sat, 9/11/10, Robin <breeleo@...> wrote:

      From: Robin <breeleo@...>
      Subject: [art_education] Re: At a loss!
      To: art_education@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 10:07 AM

       


      --- In art_education@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda" <artistws@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th grade
      > class.
      >
      > I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!
      >
      > Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
      > Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
      > semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
      > in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
      > of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still very
      > loud and distracting.
      >
      > I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
      > each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
      > work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
      > interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
      > constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
      > for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
      > just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is just
      > not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach parents,
      > no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
      > would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the way 6
      > of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked for a
      > day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The self
      > contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
      > taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is not
      > the case here.
      >
      > The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
      > Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
      > important to them. Making a Port-folio.
      >
      > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda
      >
      Hi there. I have similar scenarioes in my class. First I tell them that everyone has an A, and I do not grade on ablility. I use a completion rubric for the first several weeks. Each day the students work, they get 10 participation points, followed with a candy treat at the end of the week if they kept all points. (I pass it out the last day of the week I have them as we are on an AB schedule and ask them to eat at lunch.) Added to this, we have PBIS bucks which I pass out to reward generously. I also tape, and photograph students working, and send them to our morning announcement movie maker tech lady to show on the morning announcements. My grades are 6 and 7. Hope this helps...Robin


    • Keisha Pegues
      I am not the original poster for this question but this seems GREAT! Thanks. ... From: debbie nicholas Subject: Re: [art_education] At a
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 11, 2010
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        I am not the original poster for this question but this seems GREAT! Thanks.

        --- On Sat, 9/11/10, debbie nicholas <dkaynik@...> wrote:

        From: debbie nicholas <dkaynik@...>
        Subject: Re: [art_education] At a loss!
        To: art_education@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 10:28 AM

         
        Rewards work.  I know you can't always give candy or something like that but be creative.  I have "Monet" (money) I have created and give out for great behavior, extra effort, etc.   As they save their "Monet" the students can buy certain privileges - pick the music played, pick the subject of the next art project, etc. 

        I have found beginning with timed drawing done in a musical chair format - different objects around the rooms, students stand with paper and pencil, play music and when the music stops the students go to the nearest seat and have to draw and be quiet for so many minutes.  When I have done this I have not heard the "I can'ts" and they find out they can be quiet and draw and it is not too bad.  Lengthen the times until they are able to draw with out this.  It really doesn't take long.

        debbie
        NE Texas

        --- On Sat, 9/11/10, Wanda <artistws@...> wrote:

        From: Wanda <artistws@...>
        Subject: [art_education] At a loss!
        To: art_education@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 10:00 AM

         

        Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th grade
        class.

        I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!

        Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
        Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
        semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
        in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
        of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still very
        loud and distracting.

        I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
        each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
        work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
        interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
        constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
        for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
        just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is just
        not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach parents,
        no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
        would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the way 6
        of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked for a
        day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The self
        contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
        taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is not
        the case here.

        The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
        Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
        important to them. Making a Port-folio.

        Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda



      • Kathleen Maledon
        a couple of thoughts: descriptive pictures dealing with realism of any nature showcase their lack of talent/skill/etc. Try for success-guaranteed projects
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 11, 2010
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          a couple of thoughts: descriptive pictures dealing with realism of any nature showcase their lack of 'talent/skill/etc.
          Try for success-guaranteed projects -non-representational works.  Large motor activities such as clay,
          hammering/nailing, building, papier-mache large objects might work better or even group or partner
          activities.  I also think you need to forget 'teaching' them basic art and go for art appreciation.  it 
          sounds that a change of attitude of "I hate" to "it's cool" might be all you can do this year.  Making oversized candy might be fun.
          May the force be with you. k
          On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:00 AM, Wanda wrote:


          Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th grade
          class.

          I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!

          Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
          Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
          semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
          in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
          of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still very
          loud and distracting.

          I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
          each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
          work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
          interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
          constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
          for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
          just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is just
          not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach parents,
          no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
          would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the way 6
          of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked for a
          day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The self
          contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
          taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is not
          the case here.

          The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
          Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
          important to them. Making a Port-folio.

          Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda


        • icreatemore
          Wanda,...my experience with the i can t draw, I hate art, they stuck me in here group has been to practice a form of TAB (teaching artistic behavior); I
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 12, 2010
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            Wanda,...my experience with the "i can't draw, I hate art, they stuck me in here group" has been to practice a form of TAB (teaching artistic behavior); I stress that drawing helps them to see and aids in hand and eye coordination ie. helps in sports, finding the best prospect for long time friends, problem solving etc and they can draw whatever they like, if they keep it between just the two of us find, if it becomes an issue, I will 'Rat' them out. They show me their work, I take it seriously and explain a technique( principles of art and design) that might make it more interesting and the likelihood of them receiving more than a passing grade is rare but not impossible. What usually happens, they feel relaxed, not afraid and some become my best artist.
            The bottom line for me is with up to 36 7th and 8th graders in the same class, if I'm not interested, they're not interested.
            CA

            --- In art_education@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda" <artistws@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th grade
            > class.
            >
            > I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!
            >
            > Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
            > Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
            > semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
            > in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
            > of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still very
            > loud and distracting.
            >
            > I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
            > each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
            > work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
            > interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
            > constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
            > for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
            > just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is just
            > not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach parents,
            > no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
            > would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the way 6
            > of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked for a
            > day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The self
            > contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
            > taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is not
            > the case here.
            >
            > The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
            > Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
            > important to them. Making a Port-folio.
            >
            > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda
            >
          • Brandy
            I just did a drawing lesson with my students to open up the year. We worked in pen and ink, just becasue it was little different, and I had them draw a tree
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 12, 2010
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              I just did a drawing lesson with my students to open up the year. We worked in pen and ink, just becasue it was little different, and I had them draw a tree from memory. (It was, as expected, very folk artish) Then we went outside for ten minutes to draw the trees around the building. We were in luck becasue we had several kinds, shapes and ages; Saplings are great to draw! Then we went back inside and compared the two. Indeed, even the most, "I can't" draw child came in thinking their outside tree was more realistic looking and they were happier with those results then the first tree. I spent 2 minutes showing them trees from different art styles- from folk art, their first trees, to Modrian's fairly abstract trees and a couple in between.
              My speech throughout the lesson includes three pieces:
              I told them it wasn't my job to convince them their first tree wasn't right or not to be liked as much. But if they liked their first tree better, then they just learned that they appreciate folk art more then realistic art. Every body has their own favorite style of art they love.
              When I hear the first "I can't", I ask, "Did you come to class to learn to walk?" "No, we know how to walk." "Exactly! I'm not here to waste my time teaching you something you know. I suppose to help you do things you don't know how to do. That's my job and today that job is drawing." And with each successive "I can't" I add some other thing I'm not there to teach them; talk, eat, comb their hair, etc. I've never gotten farther in a class then three examples.
              The third value lesson of the day is that everyone's drawing expresses a great truth, even if it's only tree's. I will pick two or four examples and compare them, not for their drawing ability but for line quality. "Look at these bold lines, this is a bold tree, not going to take bull form anyone. And this tree's fine wavy lines, this trees believes in diplomacy and flexibility." (However the tree strikes me as appearing.) I make sure to analyze the *tree*, not the artist. No matter how they draw, the tree will tell you something.
              This is by no means fool proof, but it has always helped quell the tide of "I can't"s a little.
              Good luck. Oh, in room full of despondent male artists you might add that CIA agents must learn to draw before taking field positions, because it improves their memory, ability to assess an environment and activates a part of the brain that only art or music can learn to develop. To be truly whole people, whole brain, we must learn art.
              Regards,
              Brandy

              > > The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
              > > Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
              > > important to them. Making a Port-folio.
              > >
              > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • pent19
              CLAY!! I think everyone can relate to having a class of i can ts and I don t want to be here . However, clay seems to bring them in. I think that since you
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 12, 2010
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                CLAY!! I think everyone can relate to having a class of "i can'ts and I don't want to be here". However, clay seems to bring them in. I think that since you can fix and change things its a real boost for those who may stuggle with drawing or painting. I would try this project next, rewarding during it-as many others have mentioned (i do creative coupons!)
                Once you snag them I think the other projects will work out better.

                You may want to look into TAB too. I don't have my room TAB'ed but once a month (when i need to catch up my absent students) the other students can work at stations. I get out modeling clay, sculpture materials, funky scissors and scraps, paints, etc. And let them choose a station. It works surprisingly well, they get really excited I walk around a few times to have them share what they make.

                Also, I push the effort part of projects. I let them know that I know they may stuggle with one or two projects, but be really good at one material. I explain that even though I am an artist, I really love clay, but am not so good at drawing. I still try and practice it though! I focus on process (how to use the materials, how the A&E effect a work, artists who also work like this) vs. the product. I post rubrics at the beginning of a project, showing students how i grade and how somethings weigh more heavily than others (being able to mix paints vs. painting with those mixed paints)

                Most importantly, stay strong!! You seem to be looking into many options to help you out, perhaps a principal could come and talk to the class too? It can be frustrating to have great ideas and a class that won't accept/work with them.
                Michele
              • Corinne
                I work at a community center with kids who never want to look bad or stupid in front of their peers. I read somewhere that is you have oppositional students
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 12, 2010
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                  I work at a community center with kids who never want to look bad or stupid in front of their peers. I read somewhere that is you have oppositional students challenge them with "I bet you can't do this?" My most successful activity was "I bet you can't make a cartoon character" i put them in groups of 4 to 5, one piece of paper that passed from person to person as I yelled head, nose, etc. as the paper was passed. I then had them give their cartoon character a name and they were put up on the wall and we voted which one we liked the best. Then who had the funest nose etc. It was a great activity for me and the kids. I was an Occupational Therapst for 35 years and now trying to make it as an artist. As an OT I freguently had to come up with an activity that was easy but ended up looking great so i could get the trust of a child who had failure printed on his forehead by adults and other peers in his lifetime. Those middle school kids are the hardest but when you take them back from the dark side, o how very good they can be. Hang in there. These kids deserve some success in their day.
                  Corinne Vivian

                  --- In art_education@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda" <artistws@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th grade
                  > class.
                  >
                  > I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!
                  >
                  > Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
                  > Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
                  > semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
                  > in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
                  > of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still very
                  > loud and distracting.
                  >
                  > I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
                  > each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
                  > work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
                  > interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
                  > constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
                  > for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
                  > just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is just
                  > not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach parents,
                  > no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
                  > would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the way 6
                  > of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked for a
                  > day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The self
                  > contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
                  > taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is not
                  > the case here.
                  >
                  > The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
                  > Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
                  > important to them. Making a Port-folio.
                  >
                  > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda
                  >
                • Cynthia
                  Wanda, Your post has inspired me to comment on this blog for the first time. I teach privately (8 years) and after-school (K-5) -- and recently got my degree
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 13, 2010
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                    Wanda,

                    Your post has inspired me to comment on this blog for the first time.  I teach privately (8 years) and after-school (K-5) -- and recently got my degree in Art/Art Ed, so currently seeking employment. The key I have always found is to relate the work to the student's interests AND teach from the basics.  Projects that begin with basic shapes and lines should give them the confidence to tackle more and more difficult projects. 

                    For the boys especially, if they are into sports, maybe they can try drawing a still life of a baseball and/or glove (emphasizing lines simple and curvy; maybe exaggerate light to introduce tone, etc).  It doesn't have to be a complete pencil or charcoal drawing; the point would be to stop and notice at some point at how the student is succeeding in expressing their vision.

                    To me, praise and encouragement go a long way in the beginning...once they have understood that they CAN draw something, they may be willing to see art as "cool" (as Kathleen M points out).  And then discover how the elements of art and principles of design will help them to express what it is they're trying to see and say. It may catch on with one and spread to the others.  I find that challenging (especially the boisterous ones) to draw something based on their interests will usually succeed in getting them to try.

                    Also, I find that showing them art that does not follow (their idea of) "perfect" realism (like Picasso, Max Beckmann, Matisse) helps my students stretch their idea of what they can do.  I emphasize individual style (not perfection).

                    Also, try posting artists quotes around the classroom, like:
                     
                    "  The man who has something very definite to say and tries to force the medium to say it will learn how to draw."  (Robert Henri, 1865-1929).

                    "...art = a mad search for individualism." (Gaugin, 1848-1903)

                    "Art does not reproduce what we see.  It makes us see." (Paul Klee, 1879-1940).

                    "Imagination makes you see all sorts of things."  (George O'Keefe, 1887-1986).

                    I'm in awe of your 31 years of teaching, by the way, so just throwing in some suggestions for ways to possibly spark their interest and then work into your full curriculum.  Good luck with your class.

                    Cynthia

                    --- In art_education@yahoogroups.com, Kathleen Maledon <kmaledon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > a couple of thoughts: descriptive pictures dealing with realism of any
                    > nature showcase their lack of 'talent/skill/etc.
                    > Try for success-guaranteed projects -non-representational works.
                    > Large motor activities such as clay,
                    > hammering/nailing, building, papier-mache large objects might work
                    > better or even group or partner
                    > activities. I also think you need to forget 'teaching' them basic art
                    > and go for art appreciation. it
                    > sounds that a change of attitude of "I hate" to "it's cool" might be
                    > all you can do this year. Making oversized candy might be fun.
                    > May the force be with you. k
                    > On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:00 AM, Wanda wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Hello fellow teachers, I am here for support and help with an 8th
                    > > grade
                    > > class.
                    > >
                    > > I teach three 8th grade classes one of which is a challenge!
                    > >
                    > > Here is the scenario: It is a semester class, they go to Family &
                    > > Consumer Class (FACTS),(Home Ec for those of us older than 25!) second
                    > > semester. It is a class of 16 students, 8 of which are not interested
                    > > in art at all, 4 that show interest, and 4 self contained students one
                    > > of which is very boisterous, he comes with an aide but he is still
                    > > very
                    > > loud and distracting.
                    > >
                    > > I introduce the elements of art in the first week then reinforce with
                    > > each lesson plan. I try not to give much written work so most of their
                    > > work is hands on. My problem is in this one class about 8 show no
                    > > interest in learning the whys and hows to make their work better. They
                    > > constantly tell me they can't draw or don't color well, didn't sign up
                    > > for art wanted FACTS, or some other excuse for not working or rushing
                    > > just to be finished. I have tried every trick in the book but it is
                    > > just
                    > > not working with this group of students. I have tried to reach
                    > > parents,
                    > > no answer or call backs, I have given noon detentions, but I really
                    > > would like a solution or ideas for reaching these students. By the
                    > > way 6
                    > > of the 8 are boys, I contacted the football coach and that worked
                    > > for a
                    > > day or two on the discipline but not on the "I can't" syndrome. The
                    > > self
                    > > contained students try their best so they are not the problem.I have
                    > > taught for 31 yrs. so one would think I had seen it all but that is
                    > > not
                    > > the case here.
                    > >
                    > > The lessons and art work they have done so far include: A Descriptive
                    > > Line Design, in color: Cave Painting with a modern twist, things
                    > > important to them. Making a Port-folio.
                    > >
                    > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wanda
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • aliteachesart
                    Hi Wanda, I feel your pain, and it sounds like this group has found your last nerve. The fact you want to help them turn it around, means you will find
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 13, 2010
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                      Hi Wanda,

                      I feel your pain, and it sounds like this group has found your last nerve. The fact you want to help them turn it around, means you will find something that works. I teach younger kids, but have found in the past having steps and a visual helps negative students stay on task- little steps are easier to handle. Good Luck! ALi k=4
                    • Wanda
                      Hi gang, Just wanted to you to know today was better. The suggestions were great and I will certainly use some of them. I try to use their interest in almost
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 13, 2010
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                        Hi gang, Just wanted to you to know today was better. The suggestions
                        were great and I will certainly use some of them. I try to use their
                        interest in almost every project we do, after 31 yrs. I have learned
                        that trick and it usually works. I think it is just the make-up of this
                        class as my other two classes are really enjoying the projects so far.
                        Today we did a black to white value chart then a small drawing using a
                        grid to enlarge, adding value to finished the drawing. Most of the class
                        was impressed with how well they did and liked the value shading, a few
                        however were still not interested. Thanks to each of you for your
                        support and suggetions, Wanda
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