Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Two topics of intense discussion

Expand Messages
  • Amitabh Thakur
    Friends, Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please. Amitabh Thakur # 094155-34526 For
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 21, 2013
    • 0 Attachment

      Friends,

      Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

      Amitabh Thakur
      # 094155-34526


      For a better policing

      In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
      Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
      1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
      2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
      3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
      4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
      5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
      6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
      7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
      Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
       
      Hang Till Death

      There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
      Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
      1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
      2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
      3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
      4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
      5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
      In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
      Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
       
      Amitabh
       
       
    • Dr Hiren Gohain
      Thank you.Yes,the police force must be re-organised,and its administrative structure drastically reformed.[Delhi Police should be under the state
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 21, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you.Yes,the police force must be re-organised,and its administrative structure drastically reformed.[Delhi Police should be under the state government,which alone makes sense.For V V I P security a  detachment may be deputed to the Centre.].Political control and interference must be minimised.The recommendations of various Police Commissions have plenty of sound practical recommendations.
        An independent Police Commission must promptly investigate all complaints of dereliction of duty and gross negligence before such cases are referred for criminal prosecution.The nonsense about community policing spewed by devious politicians must be rejected.It is not workable in metropolitan environments with floating population.Police training,forensic examination,etc. must be professional.
         
        As for death penalty a period of six months to one year must be interposed before execution to eliminate all possibility of error.In USA
        innocent people have been punished in cases where the real solution was found years later by accident.Life Imprisonment in heinous cases must not be reduced to 14 years automatically.Judges must review the circumstances of the original  crime.If it showed pathological savagery, a vicious temperament or cold-blooded planning,leniency may be ruled out.
        Hiren Gohain.


        On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...> wrote:
         


        Friends,

        Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

        Amitabh Thakur
        # 094155-34526


        For a better policing

        In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
        Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
        1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
        2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
        3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
        4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
        5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
        6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
        7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
        Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
         
        Hang Till Death

        There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
        Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
        1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
        2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
        3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
        4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
        5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
        In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
        Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
         
        Amitabh
         
         


      • Amitabh Thakur
        wonderfully argued sir, really impressed. we may differ in our thinking, but a well-argued discussion needs to be appreciated in its fullest, sir Amitabh
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 23, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          wonderfully argued sir, really impressed. we may differ in our thinking, but a well-argued discussion needs to be appreciated in its fullest, sir

          Amitabh



          From: Mohammad Imran <dalibagh@...>
          To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:42 AM
          Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Two topics of intense discussion

          Dear Amitabh:

          My comments are in black fonts. Good luck to you for your efforts.

          Imran

          1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case.    There should be an Independent Police Complaint enquiry.

          2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct. Only criminal proceedings and conviction against shoddy police will stop criminal (illegal) police work.

          3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc (Police do need all tools to do their work, forensic education, forensic tools, laboratories, places to collect and keep evidence from contamination, judges to record all procured evidences as who got them, where, when and how, etc.)

          4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause (This is interdepartmental. However without providing motivation people do not work at full strength.)

          5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers (There must be a feeling and belief that merit counts and it is the only way to promotion.)

          6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works (Agreed if it exists)

          7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
          Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.

          8. Continuing education of police in forensic training, use of forensic equipment and in Miranda rights (copy them from the US). http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/mirandarights/a/miranda_2.htm

          9. Continuing education on illegality of torture and other coercive methods which are characterized as violations of human rights under the constitution.

          10. Continuing education of police at all levels that they are paid by the citizens (income tax), they are there to serve the citizens who employ them.

          11. Continuing education of police at all levels on interfaith relations that all citizens of all faiths are equal under the constitution.

          12. Continuing education of police at all levels on inter caste relations that all citizens of all castes should be treated equally.

          13. Continuing education of police that public should be treated as friends, the police should ask public for help if and when necessary.


          Death sentence:

          1. Fear: Fear does not keep people from committing murder. Murder is either an act of passion or is committed in cold blood. Fear will not keep murderers from committing the act.

          2. Non-human:  A person is a person, whether he is called human or non human. The use of word non-human indicates it is an emotional issue for you.

          3. How do you define inhumanity when two people are fighting and one dies, or a person is killed on the road accident, or fight starts between two groups in which some are injured and some die. Who is inhuman in the above cases and who is human?

          4. What is the definition of fair process?  

          In the USA where legal processes are stringent many people have been released from death row because there were mistakes in identification, or in presenting evidence, or in accounts of witnesses. There are groups of lawyers who are working on this very subject. Three references are given below:

          5. In India it is worse than in the USA. Persons who are sent to gallows are subject to more errors in police work, and work of lower judiciary than in the USA. These are my points below:

          a) Police work is shoddy, wrong and evidences are framed
            i) See cases collected by the Jamia Teacher's Union. These are 17 cases in which prisoners were released by courts because all evidences were framed. 
          ii) All persons convicted in Mekka Masjid blast case in Hyderabad were released because the evidence was framed by the police. 
          iii) All persons convicted or in jail in Malegaon blast case were released because the evidence was framed by the police.
          These cases indicate an extremely poor police work. It is entirely possible that majority of prisoners in jail in India have been coerced to give information against them by the police.

          b) The lower courts do not question police work. They do not question gathering of evidence and sentence defendants on police version alone. See the Binayak Sen case in which his having a page on Maoists was accepted by the court as belonging to a Maoist orgnization. Another case of a journalist couple in Allahabad. They had books on China. Police claimed that was the Maoist connection. The lower court agreed and sentenced them to 75 years in prison.

          c) The Supreme Court's famous judgment on Afzal Guru, "The collective conscience of the society will be satisfied only if the death penalty is awarded to Afzal Guru," the Bench had said." is more emotional than judicial. The court knew full well that he had no lawyer representing him at the lower court level and the evidence against him was accepted by the lower court without getting it cross examined by a lawyer.

          My comments on death sentence: Death sentence is wrong because in most cases the guilt of the person can not be proved 100% beyond doubt. Chances of murdering innocent persons is very high even in the USA what to say of India where police, courts and prosecutors all do questionable work as detailed above.

          Imran


          On Apr 21, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Amitabh Thakur wrote:

           


          Friends,

          Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

          Amitabh Thakur
          # 094155-34526


          For a better policing

          In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
          Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
          1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
          2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
          3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
          4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
          5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
          6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
          7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
          Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
           
          Hang Till Death

          There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
          Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
          1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
          2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
          3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
          4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
          5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
          In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
          Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
           
          Amitabh
           
           




        • Sankara Narayanan
          Quote: 10. Continuing education of police at all levels that they are paid by the citizens (income tax), they are there to serve the citizens who employ
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 24, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Quote:
             
             ''10. Continuing education of police at all levels that they are paid by the citizens (income tax), they are there to serve the citizens who employ them''.
             
            Unquote:
             
            Every citizen pays tax.  Income tax payers are only miniscule.



            On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...> wrote:
             

            wonderfully argued sir, really impressed. we may differ in our thinking, but a well-argued discussion needs to be appreciated in its fullest, sir

            Amitabh



            From: Mohammad Imran <dalibagh@...>
            To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...>
            Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:42 AM
            Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Two topics of intense discussion

            Dear Amitabh:

            My comments are in black fonts. Good luck to you for your efforts.

            Imran

            1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case.    There should be an Independent Police Complaint enquiry.

            2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct. Only criminal proceedings and conviction against shoddy police will stop criminal (illegal) police work.

            3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc (Police do need all tools to do their work, forensic education, forensic tools, laboratories, places to collect and keep evidence from contamination, judges to record all procured evidences as who got them, where, when and how, etc.)

            4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause (This is interdepartmental. However without providing motivation people do not work at full strength.)

            5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers (There must be a feeling and belief that merit counts and it is the only way to promotion.)

            6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works (Agreed if it exists)

            7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
            Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.

            8. Continuing education of police in forensic training, use of forensic equipment and in Miranda rights (copy them from the US). http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/mirandarights/a/miranda_2.htm

            9. Continuing education on illegality of torture and other coercive methods which are characterized as violations of human rights under the constitution.

            10. Continuing education of police at all levels that they are paid by the citizens (income tax), they are there to serve the citizens who employ them.

            11. Continuing education of police at all levels on interfaith relations that all citizens of all faiths are equal under the constitution.

            12. Continuing education of police at all levels on inter caste relations that all citizens of all castes should be treated equally.

            13. Continuing education of police that public should be treated as friends, the police should ask public for help if and when necessary.


            Death sentence:

            1. Fear: Fear does not keep people from committing murder. Murder is either an act of passion or is committed in cold blood. Fear will not keep murderers from committing the act.

            2. Non-human:  A person is a person, whether he is called human or non human. The use of word non-human indicates it is an emotional issue for you.

            3. How do you define inhumanity when two people are fighting and one dies, or a person is killed on the road accident, or fight starts between two groups in which some are injured and some die. Who is inhuman in the above cases and who is human?

            4. What is the definition of fair process?  

            In the USA where legal processes are stringent many people have been released from death row because there were mistakes in identification, or in presenting evidence, or in accounts of witnesses. There are groups of lawyers who are working on this very subject. Three references are given below:

            5. In India it is worse than in the USA. Persons who are sent to gallows are subject to more errors in police work, and work of lower judiciary than in the USA. These are my points below:

            a) Police work is shoddy, wrong and evidences are framed
              i) See cases collected by the Jamia Teacher's Union. These are 17 cases in which prisoners were released by courts because all evidences were framed. 
            ii) All persons convicted in Mekka Masjid blast case in Hyderabad were released because the evidence was framed by the police. 
            iii) All persons convicted or in jail in Malegaon blast case were released because the evidence was framed by the police.
            These cases indicate an extremely poor police work. It is entirely possible that majority of prisoners in jail in India have been coerced to give information against them by the police.

            b) The lower courts do not question police work. They do not question gathering of evidence and sentence defendants on police version alone. See the Binayak Sen case in which his having a page on Maoists was accepted by the court as belonging to a Maoist orgnization. Another case of a journalist couple in Allahabad. They had books on China. Police claimed that was the Maoist connection. The lower court agreed and sentenced them to 75 years in prison.

            c) The Supreme Court's famous judgment on Afzal Guru, "The collective conscience of the society will be satisfied only if the death penalty is awarded to Afzal Guru," the Bench had said." is more emotional than judicial. The court knew full well that he had no lawyer representing him at the lower court level and the evidence against him was accepted by the lower court without getting it cross examined by a lawyer.

            My comments on death sentence: Death sentence is wrong because in most cases the guilt of the person can not be proved 100% beyond doubt. Chances of murdering innocent persons is very high even in the USA what to say of India where police, courts and prosecutors all do questionable work as detailed above.

            Imran


            On Apr 21, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Amitabh Thakur wrote:

             


            Friends,

            Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

            Amitabh Thakur
            # 094155-34526


            For a better policing

            In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
            Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
            1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
            2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
            3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
            4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
            5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
            6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
            7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
            Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
             
            Hang Till Death

            There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
            Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
            1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
            2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
            3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
            4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
            5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
            In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
            Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
             
            Amitabh
             
             





          • Shah Alam Khan
            Dear All, I am not the least surprised on what Mr.Thakur, who appears to be a policeman every inch, has written regarding hanging. In his inanity of towing the
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear All,

              I am not the least surprised on what Mr.Thakur, who appears to be a policeman every inch, has written regarding hanging. In his inanity of towing the line of death sentence to rape accusers he forgot some important points. In fact using his own jargon, I would say he fell into puppy emotionality while arguing for death sentence in cases of rape and similar crimes. 

              He considers FEAR as the fundamental deterrent when he clamors for hanging in such cases. He forgets that this country does have hanging for the crime of murder but murders take place at frightening pace. So fear definitely does not work in a manner in which he argues. Mr. Thakur forgot that it’s not the fear of death, that is, the severity of punishment, which is the deterrent; rather the consistency of punishment, which works. Quick justice in all cases is what is required rather than hanging. 

              I am surprised why he doesn’t see hanging as an inhuman act? The irreversibility of hanging as a punishment makes it a dangerous weapon. How can we ignore the fact that a large number of countries (even those with a socio-economic milieu like ours) have long abolished capital punishment? He writes, and I quote, “there is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner”. Isn’t this an eye for an eye argument? Or will Mr. Thakur call this puppy emotionality?  There is always something extraordinary in taking away the life of a human being….at least for the common man if not for a Policewala! The fairness of a trial in a democracy cannot be questioned but its authenticity can be challenged. Why otherwise would we have such a ruckus in Afzal Guru’s case? Perception of justice is different than justice being actually done.

              It’s shocking that the literate, intellectual class of this country is arguing for capital punishment in this day and age. To me such demands are the harbinger of fascism in a setup. Clamor for capital punishment comes when there are poor chances of repairing a rotten system......when we are afraid to review our faults and our inaccuracies. System never demands capital punishment, some in the system do. In the words of Henry Ford, capital punishment is as fundamentally wrong as a cure for crime as charity is wrong for the cure of poverty.

              Dr. Shah Alam Khan

              AIIMS, New Delhi

              On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...> wrote:
               


              Friends,

              Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

              Amitabh Thakur
              # 094155-34526


              For a better policing

              In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
              Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
              1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
              2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
              3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
              4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
              5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
              6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
              7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
              Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
               
              Hang Till Death

              There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
              Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
              1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
              2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
              3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
              4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
              5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
              In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
              Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
               
              Amitabh
               
               




              --
              MS, DNB, MRCSEd, FRCS, M.Ch.Orth (Liverpool)
              Additional Professor
              Department of Orthopaedics
              All India Institute of Medical Sciences
              Ansari Nagar, New Delhi-110029
              INDIA
              Joint Secretary, Indian Orthopaedic Association
              Associate Editor, Indian Journal of Orthopaedics
            • rajagopalan ss
              Punishments have never curbed crimes. From time immemorial, death, even without any enquiry, was instantaneously awarded to those involved in murders. But
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Punishments have never curbed crimes. From time immemorial, death, even without any enquiry, was instantaneously awarded to those involved in murders. But murders take place everyday in every part of the world. Prisons should be centers of reformation, but unfortunately they are not so. A wholistic approach tp prevention of crimes is necessary.
                ssr


                To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                CC: amitabhthakurlko@...; amitabhth@...
                From: shahalamkhan70@...
                Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:08:23 +0530
                Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Two topics of intense discussion

                 

                Dear All,

                I am not the least surprised on what Mr.Thakur, who appears to be a policeman every inch, has written regarding hanging. In his inanity of towing the line of death sentence to rape accusers he forgot some important points. In fact using his own jargon, I would say he fell into puppy emotionality while arguing for death sentence in cases of rape and similar crimes. 

                He considers FEAR as the fundamental deterrent when he clamors for hanging in such cases. He forgets that this country does have hanging for the crime of murder but murders take place at frightening pace. So fear definitely does not work in a manner in which he argues. Mr. Thakur forgot that it’s not the fear of death, that is, the severity of punishment, which is the deterrent; rather the consistency of punishment, which works. Quick justice in all cases is what is required rather than hanging. 

                I am surprised why he doesn’t see hanging as an inhuman act? The irreversibility of hanging as a punishment makes it a dangerous weapon. How can we ignore the fact that a large number of countries (even those with a socio-economic milieu like ours) have long abolished capital punishment? He writes, and I quote, “there is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner”. Isn’t this an eye for an eye argument? Or will Mr. Thakur call this puppy emotionality?  There is always something extraordinary in taking away the life of a human being….at least for the common man if not for a Policewala! The fairness of a trial in a democracy cannot be questioned but its authenticity can be challenged. Why otherwise would we have such a ruckus in Afzal Guru’s case? Perception of justice is different than justice being actually done.

                It’s shocking that the literate, intellectual class of this country is arguing for capital punishment in this day and age. To me such demands are the harbinger of fascism in a setup. Clamor for capital punishment comes when there are poor chances of repairing a rotten system......when we are afraid to review our faults and our inaccuracies. System never demands capital punishment, some in the system do. In the words of Henry Ford, capital punishment is as fundamentally wrong as a cure for crime as charity is wrong for the cure of poverty.

                Dr. Shah Alam Khan

                AIIMS, New Delhi

                On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...> wrote:
                 


                Friends,

                Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

                Amitabh Thakur
                # 094155-34526


                For a better policing

                In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
                Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
                1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
                2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
                3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
                4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
                5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
                6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
                7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
                Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
                 
                Hang Till Death

                There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
                Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
                1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
                2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
                3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
                4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
                5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
                In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
                Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
                 
                Amitabh
                 
                 




                --
                MS, DNB, MRCSEd, FRCS, M.Ch.Orth (Liverpool)
                Additional Professor
                Department of Orthopaedics
                All India Institute of Medical Sciences
                Ansari Nagar, New Delhi-110029
                INDIA
                Joint Secretary, Indian Orthopaedic Association
                Associate Editor, Indian Journal of Orthopaedics

              • Pushkar Raj
                In a money driven legal process and society that has under currents of legion of prejudices pervading deep down, death sentence is a crime repeated against
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 24, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a money driven legal process and society that has under currents of legion of prejudices pervading deep down,  death sentence is a crime repeated against life by society as a whole...
                  pushkar raj

                    


                  On 24 April 2013 14:08, Shah Alam Khan <shahalamkhan70@...> wrote:
                   

                  Dear All,

                  I am not the least surprised on what Mr.Thakur, who appears to be a policeman every inch, has written regarding hanging. In his inanity of towing the line of death sentence to rape accusers he forgot some important points. In fact using his own jargon, I would say he fell into puppy emotionality while arguing for death sentence in cases of rape and similar crimes. 

                  He considers FEAR as the fundamental deterrent when he clamors for hanging in such cases. He forgets that this country does have hanging for the crime of murder but murders take place at frightening pace. So fear definitely does not work in a manner in which he argues. Mr. Thakur forgot that it’s not the fear of death, that is, the severity of punishment, which is the deterrent; rather the consistency of punishment, which works. Quick justice in all cases is what is required rather than hanging. 

                  I am surprised why he doesn’t see hanging as an inhuman act? The irreversibility of hanging as a punishment makes it a dangerous weapon. How can we ignore the fact that a large number of countries (even those with a socio-economic milieu like ours) have long abolished capital punishment? He writes, and I quote, “there is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner”. Isn’t this an eye for an eye argument? Or will Mr. Thakur call this puppy emotionality?  There is always something extraordinary in taking away the life of a human being….at least for the common man if not for a Policewala! The fairness of a trial in a democracy cannot be questioned but its authenticity can be challenged. Why otherwise would we have such a ruckus in Afzal Guru’s case? Perception of justice is different than justice being actually done.

                  It’s shocking that the literate, intellectual class of this country is arguing for capital punishment in this day and age. To me such demands are the harbinger of fascism in a setup. Clamor for capital punishment comes when there are poor chances of repairing a rotten system......when we are afraid to review our faults and our inaccuracies. System never demands capital punishment, some in the system do. In the words of Henry Ford, capital punishment is as fundamentally wrong as a cure for crime as charity is wrong for the cure of poverty.

                  Dr. Shah Alam Khan

                  AIIMS, New Delhi

                  On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Amitabh Thakur <amitabhth@...> wrote:
                   


                  Friends,

                  Two of my write-ups on issues presently under hectic and intense discussion. Would request for your comments please.

                  Amitabh Thakur
                  # 094155-34526


                  For a better policing

                  In the wake of the spate of rapes and the alleged poor response of the police in these offences, if we really want a better policing in India, we need to stop our superficial approach and go for some of the fundamental reasons for the current state of affairs.
                  Some of the things that are immediately needed include-
                  1.       Strictest action against the delinquents in police- This can happen only when we have an Independent Police Complaint enquiry system as found in Britain and many other foreign countries and as emphasized by the Supreme Court in the Police Reforms case
                  2.       Not limiting the action against policemen to mere administrative measures but to initiate criminal proceedings as well, as and when a policeman is found deliberately criminally liable in his conduct
                  3.       Immediately improve all the basic infrastructural requirements of police and police personnel. We can never have good policing with meager resources, logistical support, small number of policemen etc
                  4.       Stop the power distance between the so-called superior and subordinate officer in the police department and create a working environment where all the policemen feel they are equal, working together for a common cause
                  5.       Massively increase the promotional avenues of the subordinate police officers, no less than that of IPS/PPS officers
                  6.       Stop the inhumane treatment of subordinate police officers in the department, including their use in household and personal works
                  7.       Very special emphasis and focus on behavioural contents and interaction with public and stern action in case of all improprieties found here
                  Improving police and policing is not all that difficult. The only thing needed is the wish to do so.
                   
                  Hang Till Death

                  There are many who oppose the concept of death penalty and completely loath the word- hang till death. With due regards to their sense and sensibility, I would venture to say that they possibly want to live in a fools’ paradise. I am sorry for using these strong words and they are not meant to hurt, humiliate or demean anyone. The only purpose is to give such people a jolt so that they get ready to listen to what one of their ideological opponents wants to say.
                  Without going into the details of the philosophical expostulations of death penalty and its opposition, I would come straight to the point by saying that I very very strongly argue for death penalty for all truly heinous crimes like murder (in all its forms), brutal rape, serious cases of terrorism etc because-
                  1.       Fear is one of the fundamental guiding principles of human psyche. If love and respect are to be given due importance in any society, a strong sense of fear is a sin-qua-non for any society to keep itself clean and healthy. It is like spraying strong insecticide in a place which we really want to keep safe from the unwanted insects.
                  2.       There is nothing inhuman in treating a non-human with the sentence of death. The principle of adequate and appropriate awards and punishments is very important for any healthy system. The only precaution that is needed to develop a mechanism that is efficient and fair but this does not mean that we shall thrown away the baby (death penalty) with water (the fear of any alleged injustice)
                  3.       If a system does not give a very stringent penalty (of death) to a person who went beyond all limits of inhumanity, it is apparent that this system is failing in its duty
                  4.       There is nothing extraordinary in taking away a human being’s life, when it has been well-established through a fair trial process in the due process of law that the person being awarded death penalty has, all through his barbarous act, been behaving as an unbridled, deadly and venomous animal, having no respect for humanness in any manner
                  5.       Governance and administration cannot be based solely on superficial and puppy emotionality but it needs hard though fair decisions, including death penalties in appropriate cases, when so warranted
                  In sum, while death penalties shall be given in the “rarest of the rare cases” in the same vein as the legal principle established by the Supreme Court of India, yet the words “rarest of the rare” should not be artificially restricted in any manner but shall include within its fold all such cases where humanity has been a clear sufferer and where the perpetrator of crime has crossed all limits of humanity and has adopted gruesome, barbaric and ghastly means in the process of his criminal act.
                  Yes, we do need to have a fair and foolproof system of justice, and we shall also have death sentences for all such crimes where the limits of humanity were visibly and clearly crossed.
                   
                  Amitabh
                   
                   




                  --
                  MS, DNB, MRCSEd, FRCS, M.Ch.Orth (Liverpool)
                  Additional Professor
                  Department of Orthopaedics
                  All India Institute of Medical Sciences
                  Ansari Nagar, New Delhi-110029
                  INDIA
                  Joint Secretary, Indian Orthopaedic Association
                  Associate Editor, Indian Journal of Orthopaedics


                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.