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RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

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  • Aamir Riaz
    we r habitual of using education in the promotion of religion, ideologies and nationalism. in this derive we often compromise pedagogy. the issue is neither
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 31, 2012


      we r habitual of using education in the promotion of religion, ideologies and nationalism. in this derive we often compromise pedagogy. the issue is neither religion or nationalism or ideology yet the issue is The balance between pedagogy and our biases. it is not a new phenomenon but has a legacy of British Empire. but after 65 years, we r still following it as it suited to ruling elite too. remember, the state is not the only institution who is following this legacy yet non government institutions too following this from many years, consciously or unconsciously.  what was the reaction against jaswant Singh book? it was an example of reducing spaces for dialogue. tradition of dialogue is key to understand education system.
      •  u cannot talk against Indian nationalism
      • u cannot talk against modi
      • u cannot talk against s0-called first war of Independence 1857
      • u cannot talk against advani
      • u cannot promote tradition of dialogue regarding religion and nationalism 
      now we have new gods like Public private partnership but have we discuss it thoroughly?


      aamir riaz

      EDITOR AWAMI JAMHORI FORUM www.ajfpk.org
      http://punjabpunch.blogspot.com/view/flipcard
      G.M. ILQA PUBLICATIONS, AN IMPRINT OF READINGS, LHORE
      0301-840-7020    03334226323
       



      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      From: dk.dilipkumar@...
      Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:15:33 +0000
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       
      Education is the backbone of any democratic nation and it is the teacher and not the politicians who will have to bear the responsibility of imparting quality education to our growing children. While doing so the teachers must take pride in their profession and dedicate to this one of the most important social cause. Government must provide necessary infrastructure facilities and respectable salary with due social respect and position as per our traditional culture and values.

      Unfortunately for our neo rulers or so called leaders or public representatives have other priorities. They show highest level of agreement and give priority for raising their own salary, pension, perks and privileges multifold and within no time. They will continue frustrating the democracy so long they keep the people ignored, uneducated and divided to ensure they are in power and they have established their sons and daughters as their successors.

      It is the general public and especially those who are educated, aware and preserve sense of social responsibility who will have to fight for better education system.

      Dilip
      Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

      Dilip Kumar
      Rural Livelihood / Small-scale Aquaculture and Fisheries Development Adviser
      C-9 / 9698, Vasant Kunj, New Delhi-110070, India
      Tel / Fax- + (91) 11-26899185;
      Mob: +(91) 9560455702
      E mail- dk.dilipkumar@...

      From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
      Sender: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:47:01 +0530
      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      ReplyTo: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       

      What a nation of 'unequals' we are!. Teachers' salary irritates but not the crores paid to Ambanis and co. Should there be not an income ceiling?  We must be more concerned with how to make the Public School System functions efficiently. Every Indian is a taxpayer and as such owner of every public body. Why don't our people know their right to take care of the schools run with their money? If people agitate for better infrastructure, more teachers, better student amenities etc., in the Public SChools, Govt will take action. MGNRGE is an example.
      ssr


      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      From: pjain2002@...
      Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:01:00 -0700
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       

      Dear All,
       
      1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
       
      2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class interest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? :( sad)
       
      3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period.
       
      4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
       
      5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
       
      6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
       
      Pankaj
       
      From: janaki rajan <rajan.janaki@...>
      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       
      Hi,
       
      This is with reference to Pankaj Jain's note beginning with:
       
      'The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education'.
      I have heard and read this point of view for some time now, and have been meaning to respond-here it is:
      1.       Analyzing share of education spending on all aspects is certainly legitimate, not least the teacher’s share.
      2.       The issue at hand is, what does it cost to run an effective school where children learn? If true recurring requirement*  is, say, Rs. 240, and Rs. 100 is being spent, then ofcourse things will be skewed and is prone to all kinds of explanations. If teacher pay is 80 out of the required 240, then the percentage of teacher pay to total budget is 30% but if only 100 is given when 240 is required, the teacher pay calculation looks like 80%! The 100 given is an arbitrary sum determined by the governments of the day without basis. It pushes and squeezes us to pit one aspect of education (teacher pay) with other aspects (books, teaching learning materials). Artifical pitting and polarization of one element (teachers’ pay) over another element (children’s learning) is not helpful in our quest for better teaching-learning for children. In any case, teacher salaries exist in several slabs, ranging from pitiful SSA pay, to contract wages for tens of years, to pay scales. Reports estimate that 50% of posts are filled by low wage teachers.
      3.       This reminds me of similar pitting that was done between higher education and school education spending in the 90s. Quality school education requires quality research, teacher educators, research based materials, books on education-all of which are in the higher education domain. The two intermesh and both need sufficient funds.
      4.       A certain amount is necessary condition for good schooling. This is irrespective of per capita. That amount, say, x, will have to be spent, and will look as huge percent in a low per capita country like India compared to others. Let’s not try to carve larger portions of diminishing pie. Let’s question adequacy of the size of the pie. As a fundamental right, education has to be the first charge on the exchequer. Rest follows.
      5.       To label those who seek adequate funds for teacher salary (30% or 80% depending on how we look at it) as sloganeering is unproductive. Demanding accountability is certainly productive.
      6.       Teachers and children are inseparable in the learning domain. To resent teacher portion of budget is like resenting parents spending more money on their clothes (more cloth) as adults compared to that for their children who need less. I realize this is clumsy, but can’t think fo any other way to put it!
      Hope this is of some use.      
      * [I am not taking facilities into account here only because they come under nonrecurring budgets-but that can be factored in too and we can arrive at the sum required as say, 300-the logic remains the same]  


      On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
       
      Sir,
       
      The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
       
      School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
       
      Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
       
      1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 
      2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
      3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
      4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
      5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
       
      Pankaj Jain
       

      From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
      To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:47 AM
      Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       
      Don't link teachers' salary with budget. The Education Budget shd take account of all essential expenditures, including salaries. While Tamilnadu was allotting 30-35% of the budget for education in 1950's, now it has  come down to 14.6% Why do we spend so much on defence and police and still not able to maintain security? Lack of political will. Purchase of arms is beneficial-to whom?
      All these can't be easily brushed aside in such forum. Children are the most important characters in the School System. THey are genuinely concerned that their needs are not understood by curriculum-makers.
      ssr

      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      From: pjain2002@...
      Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:58 -0700
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       

      Sir,
       
      The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. 
       
      We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
       
      Pankaj 

       
      From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
      To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
      Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       
      Who are the most important characters in the Education System? They are children for without them schools become meaningless. But have they any voice in decision-making, curriculum management, disciplinary rules etc. Once I told a student that he had violated the School Rules. He retorted" Who made the rules?" For a moment I was angry, but immediately I felt he was right. what right we have to frame rules for them? I asked him if he would frame the rules. Oh, yes was the reply. For the next 20 days all the class pupil leaders sat together, discussed every rule in existence and came up with their own rules. First they named the rules " My way of Life". There was not a single negative in any rule nor mention of punishment. The rule that students should not come late was modified as" I will come to school on time every day, fully prepared for that day's lessons" One rule showed how considerate students were. Rule 17 said " When I travel in a bus and see a lady or child or an old man standing, I will offer my seat to them and go standing" It touched me much. They went  farther beyond the school premises. Students are capable of positive action, provided they are permitted to.
      ssr

      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      CC: kdssptewa@...
      From: pjain2002@...
      Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:15 -0700
      Subject: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

       

      School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
       
      Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
       
      1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children, (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
      2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
       
      3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
       
      4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist.
       
      Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
       
      Since analysis or fact based policies are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
       
      I  may sound cynical, but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
       
      I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
       
      Pankaj
       
      From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: kdssptewa@...
      Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

       
      Dear Shabnam,

      Thank you for pointing out the challenges that India's rote education system heaps on a scary majority of all those who go to school.

      We are designed by the education to think in the past, imitate, follow and when someone aspires to lead, unfailingly begins following the path of remaining generations behind the rest of the world.

      They usually talk of opening PCOs after cell phones become viable. They talked about electronic typewriters after computers became available. They began talking about tablets that are useless after One Laptop per Child Laptops became available- the gap between the two being no less than  a human being and a robotic replica thereof..

      That has kept us where we are: 65 years of freedom to watch one-fifth of humanity with NO Nobel prize in science, if we were to consider that an accomplishment.

      65 years of sports with fewer medals as a nation than a single olympian like Phelps.

      The story is replicable everywhere, in every field. Save entrepreneurs who have begun dreaming to global scale, if not their creativity, methods or models and imitationally and not thinking ahead, not looking into the future, without a vision for the country or global leadership, save as a desire or a wishful thinking.

      The only salvation for India is to help everyone begin to learn learning, not rote education; begin learning for critical thinking and problem solving rather the for certificates and degrees alone with a vision of tomorrow rather than taking the next step without any roadmap.



      On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM, <shabnamhashmi@...> wrote:
       
      It is badly written with a lot of mistakes. If you want to tell the world that education standards are very good at least ensure that your communication is well written.

      There is a need to debate what is this education ? Is it producing good citizens, thinkers, humane peace loving citizens? Is the education ensuring that there are no prejudices, hatred , hierarchy in minds of the educated. Is the education giving the courage to stand against what is wrong and is it teaching questioning?
      Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
      From: Koraput district scst primary Teachers empoyees welfare associ <kdssptewa@...>
      Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:01:21 +0800 (SGT)
      To: agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com<agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com<chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com>; chennai@yahoogroups.com<chennai@yahoogroups.com>; educationrights@yahoogroups.com<educationrights@yahoogroups.com>; focusorissa@yahoogroups.com<focusorissa@yahoogroups.com>; ihro@yahoogroups.com<ihro@yahoogroups.com>; indiafirst@yahoogroups.com<indiafirst@yahoogroups.com>; indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com<indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com>; inviteplus@yahoogroups.com<inviteplus@yahoogroups.com>; issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com<issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; janshakti@yahoogroups.com<janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com<mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; osanet@yahoogroups.com<osanet@yahoogroups.com>; samukhya@yahoogroups.com<samukhya@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

       
      Education is the principal instrument of developing human capabilities. In India it is in the concurrent list. It is the main part of the government to provide education to its citizens. By which it will help to shape the destiny of the nation.
      But in recent times there is a sea change in the tools, technology and mode of education. In the post-independence era, the mode & method of education has continually evolved in Orissa and India. In the modern times to cater the needs of specific groups the need for differentiation in education method has also changed in Orissa. After independence Orissa is improving & competing with other states of India to become a prosperous state in the field of education.

      The literacy percentage of Orissa is improving highly. Now it has a number of Universities, General colleges, Medical, Engineering , Management, Ayurvedic, Homeopathic, Law, Dance & Music Colleges, B.E.D training Centers, C.T. and Hindi training Centers. Due to the high standard of education in Orissa Students from all over India are coming to Orissa for higher studies. With the increase of public-private participation, now the students of Orissa enjoying most modern facilities in education. With the change of time educational institutions like Xavier Institute of Business Management, Institute of Physics, Utkal Univrsity, National Institute of Technology-Rourkela, Biju Pattnaik University of Technology, IIMC-Dhenkanal, Kalinga Institute of Technology, S C B Medical College, Cuttack, V S S Medical College & Hospital, Burla  and so on dazzles Orissa’s name nationally and internationally in the filed of education.
      Orissa has always made concerted efforts to provide quality education to all. Prospects of a brighter future is evidently in the offing in view of certain major initiatives of the Government of Orissa, the Government of India and private parties.

      Fact of Orissa Education

      • The average literacy rate in Orissa is 63.08% during 2001, as against all India average of 64.8%.

      • Male literacy rate is 75.95% and female literacy rate is 50.51% during 2001.
      • 44,416 Primary Schools with 52.54 lakh enrolment and 97 lakh teachers in the State as on 2003-2004. There is one Primary School  for every 3.5 Sq.Km area.
      • Mid day Meal Programme has been operational since 1995. In 2003-04, 46.32 lakh children in 51,931 schools were brought under this scheme.
      • 14.233 Upper Primary Schools as on 2003-04. There is one Upper Primary School for each 10.94 km area in the State.
      • Overall dropout rate at the primary stage was 33.6%, the dropout rate for girls was 35.4% and for boys 31.9% during 2003-04.
      • Dropout rate at upper primary stage has decreased from 59% in 2002-03 & 57.5% in 2003-04. 56.5% boys dropped out inupper primary stage in 2003-04 while 58.6% girls dropped out in the same year.
      • Secondary stage of education from Classes VIII to X is under the academic control of the Board of Secondary Education. During 2003-04, 7,011 high schools were functioning in the State which 3,556 were Government High Schools and 657 were aided schools. During 2003-04, there was one High School for every 22.2 sq. km.
      • The dropout rate in high school has decreased from 69.5% in 2001-02 to 64.4% in 2003-04. 62.5% boys dropped out while 66.7% girls dropped out of high school in 2003-2004.
      • 1,112 General Colleges to provide facilities for higher secondary education in the State including 48 Government Colleges. The Council of Higher Secondary Education regulates higher secondary education, conducts examination and co-ordinate University Education.
      • During 2003-2004, 1,679 General Colleges were functioning, out of which 96 were Government and 601 were aided colleges.
      • There are 4 Government Training Colleges, six Colleges of Teachers Education and three Institutes of Advanced Study in Education, in the State.
      • The State has nine Universities.
      • Computer Education has been included as on optional subject in the secondary level by the Board of Secondary Education



      --
      Satish Jha 
      T: 301 841 7422
      F: 301 560 4909 
      ________________
       















    • Sarwat Ali
      http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12# - Click the link to see the pictorial presentation on what coordinated and concerted efforts
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1, 2012
        http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12#

        • Click the link to see the pictorial presentation on what coordinated and concerted efforts are required to achieve excellence in education and what are state's investment.
        • examinations were never introduced for the purpose to evaluate the children but they were for the feed back for teachers.Therefore linking examination with children's learning is unrealistic.All  those who pass the examination are not the best. Emphasis on marks and not on learning is responsible for corruption in education system at all levels.


        Sarwat Ali


        On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Dilip Kumar <dk.dilipkumar@...> wrote:
         

        Education is the backbone of any democratic nation and it is the teacher and not the politicians who will have to bear the responsibility of imparting quality education to our growing children. While doing so the teachers must take pride in their profession and dedicate to this one of the most important social cause. Government must provide necessary infrastructure facilities and respectable salary with due social respect and position as per our traditional culture and values.

        Unfortunately for our neo rulers or so called leaders or public representatives have other priorities. They show highest level of agreement and give priority for raising their own salary, pension, perks and privileges multifold and within no time. They will continue frustrating the democracy so long they keep the people ignored, uneducated and divided to ensure they are in power and they have established their sons and daughters as their successors.

        It is the general public and especially those who are educated, aware and preserve sense of social responsibility who will have to fight for better education system.

        Dilip

        Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

        Dilip Kumar
        Rural Livelihood / Small-scale Aquaculture and Fisheries Development Adviser
        C-9 / 9698, Vasant Kunj, New Delhi-110070, India
        Tel / Fax- + (91) 11-26899185;
        Mob: +(91) 9560455702
        E mail- dk.dilipkumar@...

        From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
        Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:47:01 +0530
        Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         

        What a nation of 'unequals' we are!. Teachers' salary irritates but not the crores paid to Ambanis and co. Should there be not an income ceiling?  We must be more concerned with how to make the Public School System functions efficiently. Every Indian is a taxpayer and as such owner of every public body. Why don't our people know their right to take care of the schools run with their money? If people agitate for better infrastructure, more teachers, better student amenities etc., in the Public SChools, Govt will take action. MGNRGE is an example.
        ssr


        To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
        From: pjain2002@...
        Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 20:01:00 -0700
        Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         

        Dear All,
         
        1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
         
        2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class interest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? :( sad)
         
        3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period.
         
        4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
         
        5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
         
        6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
         
        Pankaj
         
        From: janaki rajan <rajan.janaki@...>
        To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM
        Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         
        Hi,
         
        This is with reference to Pankaj Jain's note beginning with:
         
        'The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education'.
        I have heard and read this point of view for some time now, and have been meaning to respond-here it is:
        1.       Analyzing share of education spending on all aspects is certainly legitimate, not least the teacher’s share.
        2.       The issue at hand is, what does it cost to run an effective school where children learn? If true recurring requirement*  is, say, Rs. 240, and Rs. 100 is being spent, then ofcourse things will be skewed and is prone to all kinds of explanations. If teacher pay is 80 out of the required 240, then the percentage of teacher pay to total budget is 30% but if only 100 is given when 240 is required, the teacher pay calculation looks like 80%! The 100 given is an arbitrary sum determined by the governments of the day without basis. It pushes and squeezes us to pit one aspect of education (teacher pay) with other aspects (books, teaching learning materials). Artifical pitting and polarization of one element (teachers’ pay) over another element (children’s learning) is not helpful in our quest for better teaching-learning for children. In any case, teacher salaries exist in several slabs, ranging from pitiful SSA pay, to contract wages for tens of years, to pay scales. Reports estimate that 50% of posts are filled by low wage teachers.
        3.       This reminds me of similar pitting that was done between higher education and school education spending in the 90s. Quality school education requires quality research, teacher educators, research based materials, books on education-all of which are in the higher education domain. The two intermesh and both need sufficient funds.
        4.       A certain amount is necessary condition for good schooling. This is irrespective of per capita. That amount, say, x, will have to be spent, and will look as huge percent in a low per capita country like India compared to others. Let’s not try to carve larger portions of diminishing pie. Let’s question adequacy of the size of the pie. As a fundamental right, education has to be the first charge on the exchequer. Rest follows.
        5.       To label those who seek adequate funds for teacher salary (30% or 80% depending on how we look at it) as sloganeering is unproductive. Demanding accountability is certainly productive.
        6.       Teachers and children are inseparable in the learning domain. To resent teacher portion of budget is like resenting parents spending more money on their clothes (more cloth) as adults compared to that for their children who need less. I realize this is clumsy, but can’t think fo any other way to put it!
        Hope this is of some use.      
        * [I am not taking facilities into account here only because they come under nonrecurring budgets-but that can be factored in too and we can arrive at the sum required as say, 300-the logic remains the same]  


        On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
         
        Sir,
         
        The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
         
        School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
         
        Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
         
        1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 
        2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
        3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
        4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
        5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
         
        Pankaj Jain
         

        From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
        To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:47 AM
        Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         
        Don't link teachers' salary with budget. The Education Budget shd take account of all essential expenditures, including salaries. While Tamilnadu was allotting 30-35% of the budget for education in 1950's, now it has  come down to 14.6% Why do we spend so much on defence and police and still not able to maintain security? Lack of political will. Purchase of arms is beneficial-to whom?
        All these can't be easily brushed aside in such forum. Children are the most important characters in the School System. THey are genuinely concerned that their needs are not understood by curriculum-makers.
        ssr

        To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
        From: pjain2002@...
        Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:58 -0700
        Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         

        Sir,
         
        The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. 
         
        We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
         
        Pankaj 

         
        From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
        To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
        Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         
        Who are the most important characters in the Education System? They are children for without them schools become meaningless. But have they any voice in decision-making, curriculum management, disciplinary rules etc. Once I told a student that he had violated the School Rules. He retorted" Who made the rules?" For a moment I was angry, but immediately I felt he was right. what right we have to frame rules for them? I asked him if he would frame the rules. Oh, yes was the reply. For the next 20 days all the class pupil leaders sat together, discussed every rule in existence and came up with their own rules. First they named the rules " My way of Life". There was not a single negative in any rule nor mention of punishment. The rule that students should not come late was modified as" I will come to school on time every day, fully prepared for that day's lessons" One rule showed how considerate students were. Rule 17 said " When I travel in a bus and see a lady or child or an old man standing, I will offer my seat to them and go standing" It touched me much. They went  farther beyond the school premises. Students are capable of positive action, provided they are permitted to.
        ssr

        To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
        CC: kdssptewa@...
        From: pjain2002@...
        Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:15 -0700
        Subject: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

         

        School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
         
        Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
         
        1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children, (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
        2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
         
        3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
         
        4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist.
         
        Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
         
        Since analysis or fact based policies are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
         
        I  may sound cynical, but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
         
        I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
         
        Pankaj
         
        From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
        To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: kdssptewa@...
        Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

         
        Dear Shabnam,

        Thank you for pointing out the challenges that India's rote education system heaps on a scary majority of all those who go to school.

        We are designed by the education to think in the past, imitate, follow and when someone aspires to lead, unfailingly begins following the path of remaining generations behind the rest of the world.

        They usually talk of opening PCOs after cell phones become viable. They talked about electronic typewriters after computers became available. They began talking about tablets that are useless after One Laptop per Child Laptops became available- the gap between the two being no less than  a human being and a robotic replica thereof..

        That has kept us where we are: 65 years of freedom to watch one-fifth of humanity with NO Nobel prize in science, if we were to consider that an accomplishment.

        65 years of sports with fewer medals as a nation than a single olympian like Phelps.

        The story is replicable everywhere, in every field. Save entrepreneurs who have begun dreaming to global scale, if not their creativity, methods or models and imitationally and not thinking ahead, not looking into the future, without a vision for the country or global leadership, save as a desire or a wishful thinking.

        The only salvation for India is to help everyone begin to learn learning, not rote education; begin learning for critical thinking and problem solving rather the for certificates and degrees alone with a vision of tomorrow rather than taking the next step without any roadmap.



        On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM, <shabnamhashmi@...> wrote:
         
        It is badly written with a lot of mistakes. If you want to tell the world that education standards are very good at least ensure that your communication is well written.

        There is a need to debate what is this education ? Is it producing good citizens, thinkers, humane peace loving citizens? Is the education ensuring that there are no prejudices, hatred , hierarchy in minds of the educated. Is the education giving the courage to stand against what is wrong and is it teaching questioning?
        Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
        From: Koraput district scst primary Teachers empoyees welfare associ <kdssptewa@...>
        Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:01:21 +0800 (SGT)
        To: agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com<agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com<chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com>; chennai@yahoogroups.com<chennai@yahoogroups.com>; educationrights@yahoogroups.com<educationrights@yahoogroups.com>; focusorissa@yahoogroups.com<focusorissa@yahoogroups.com>; ihro@yahoogroups.com<ihro@yahoogroups.com>; indiafirst@yahoogroups.com<indiafirst@yahoogroups.com>; indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com<indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com>; inviteplus@yahoogroups.com<inviteplus@yahoogroups.com>; issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com<issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; janshakti@yahoogroups.com<janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com<mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; osanet@yahoogroups.com<osanet@yahoogroups.com>; samukhya@yahoogroups.com<samukhya@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

         
        Education is the principal instrument of developing human capabilities. In India it is in the concurrent list. It is the main part of the government to provide education to its citizens. By which it will help to shape the destiny of the nation.
        But in recent times there is a sea change in the tools, technology and mode of education. In the post-independence era, the mode & method of education has continually evolved in Orissa and India. In the modern times to cater the needs of specific groups the need for differentiation in education method has also changed in Orissa. After independence Orissa is improving & competing with other states of India to become a prosperous state in the field of education.

        The literacy percentage of Orissa is improving highly. Now it has a number of Universities, General colleges, Medical, Engineering , Management, Ayurvedic, Homeopathic, Law, Dance & Music Colleges, B.E.D training Centers, C.T. and Hindi training Centers. Due to the high standard of education in Orissa Students from all over India are coming to Orissa for higher studies. With the increase of public-private participation, now the students of Orissa enjoying most modern facilities in education. With the change of time educational institutions like Xavier Institute of Business Management, Institute of Physics, Utkal Univrsity, National Institute of Technology-Rourkela, Biju Pattnaik University of Technology, IIMC-Dhenkanal, Kalinga Institute of Technology, S C B Medical College, Cuttack, V S S Medical College & Hospital, Burla  and so on dazzles Orissa’s name nationally and internationally in the filed of education.
        Orissa has always made concerted efforts to provide quality education to all. Prospects of a brighter future is evidently in the offing in view of certain major initiatives of the Government of Orissa, the Government of India and private parties.

        Fact of Orissa Education

        • The average literacy rate in Orissa is 63.08% during 2001, as against all India average of 64.8%.

        • Male literacy rate is 75.95% and female literacy rate is 50.51% during 2001.
        • 44,416 Primary Schools with 52.54 lakh enrolment and 97 lakh teachers in the State as on 2003-2004. There is one Primary School  for every 3.5 Sq.Km area.
        • Mid day Meal Programme has been operational since 1995. In 2003-04, 46.32 lakh children in 51,931 schools were brought under this scheme.
        • 14.233 Upper Primary Schools as on 2003-04. There is one Upper Primary School for each 10.94 km area in the State.
        • Overall dropout rate at the primary stage was 33.6%, the dropout rate for girls was 35.4% and for boys 31.9% during 2003-04.
        • Dropout rate at upper primary stage has decreased from 59% in 2002-03 & 57.5% in 2003-04. 56.5% boys dropped out inupper primary stage in 2003-04 while 58.6% girls dropped out in the same year.
        • Secondary stage of education from Classes VIII to X is under the academic control of the Board of Secondary Education. During 2003-04, 7,011 high schools were functioning in the State which 3,556 were Government High Schools and 657 were aided schools. During 2003-04, there was one High School for every 22.2 sq. km.
        • The dropout rate in high school has decreased from 69.5% in 2001-02 to 64.4% in 2003-04. 62.5% boys dropped out while 66.7% girls dropped out of high school in 2003-2004.
        • 1,112 General Colleges to provide facilities for higher secondary education in the State including 48 Government Colleges. The Council of Higher Secondary Education regulates higher secondary education, conducts examination and co-ordinate University Education.
        • During 2003-2004, 1,679 General Colleges were functioning, out of which 96 were Government and 601 were aided colleges.
        • There are 4 Government Training Colleges, six Colleges of Teachers Education and three Institutes of Advanced Study in Education, in the State.
        • The State has nine Universities.
        • Computer Education has been included as on optional subject in the secondary level by the Board of Secondary Education



        --
        Satish Jha 
        T: 301 841 7422
        F: 301 560 4909 
        ________________
         
















        --
        sarwat ali
        pocket A/3C sukhdev Vihar
        New Delhi - 110025

        9810525317



      • Kuldeep Garg
        Dear Pankaj Ji I have some comments on your arguments. I have taken the all of your mails text together to put them as a single text and inserted my comments
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1, 2012

          Dear Pankaj Ji

          I have some comments on your arguments. I have taken the all of your mails' text together to put them as a single text and inserted my comments in between the text wherever I disagree with you. The all my comments have been given in red color whereas the part that has been taken as reference point is marked with yellow color. Please see the text below.

          Regards

          kuldeep


          Dear All,

           

          1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc. On what basis is this being demanded, are their some criteria to decide this?

           

          2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- average is highly deceiving thing. Moreover, average spending at world level does not set a rule for a nation to spend the same amount. We may have our own priorities. per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED this may create problems in managing the funds properly. And such things happened/are happening in India (see for example a study by Padma Sarangapani on DIETs where they have found that once a rule is set to allocate a certain amount of fund to a particular head, it becomes very difficult to use this money for other purposes where it is needed desperately since the head it meant for does not need this anymore). Instead of this, I would prefer to allocate this money on the basis of actual needs.    things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class please revisit your construction “children class” here. The concept of “class” has different connotation. This concept has been a central theme in Marx’s thinking system and its zist, in words of Prabhat Patnaik, has not been in unique partitioning of society in some fixed globules. On the contrary it refers this partitioning with reference to the sphere of production. I have serious doubts whether children in schools of a country shall be visualized as a “class”.  nterest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? and this is neo-right-liberal reality that in the name of structural adjustments our education system is being gradually killed by reducing the expenditure on teacher preparation and twisting the criteria to identify a person as teacher. In the name of teacher, some semi-prepared people are being hired.) 

          3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period as if it has no implications!!! If it has, then it can’t be a simple arithmetic. If it has no implications, then why this exercise?.

           

          4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. incomparable things have been mentioned as basic premises of the arguments. Please note that education is essentially a context-tied phenomenon. Instead of referring some external criteria, we must refer our own criteria of better education as a nation. We must debate that what education can be called as good education not only in present India but also in future India being a part of world? Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  

           

          5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.

           

          6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, first of all it has not been proved yet by you (even in some positivistic sense) that it requires this kind of proportional allocation. Second, it is very problematic to say that higher expenditures “cannot be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights”. Fundamental rights cannot be looked at with reference to their monetary cost we need to pay for their fulfillment. Why? Because we value them as “fundamental” conditions of human life. We cannot leave our near and dear one to die since it requires a lot of money (and which can be arranged somehow) to sustain her life through some medical treatments. Why? Because we value the life of that person, not the money.

           

          Yes, you can raise some other kind of questions. Like-  How much a teacher shall earn as her salary in India? Is it possible to have some criteria to decide the amount of teachers’ salary? Do teachers deserve high salary? If yes, then what are those attributes which make them so worthy or deserving? If no, then why?

          By raising such questions and debating on them is the only rational way to decide something about such things.   

          if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.

           

          Pankaj

           

          School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.

           

          Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:

           

          1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children seems to be very simplistic and/or rather novice statement. On the one hand, you are ignoring that how socio-cultural backgrounds of children play a crucial role in determining the behaviour of teachers or peer group in schools with them. On the other hand, you are unnecessarily visualizing the children as someone who is voiceless and powerless. Please note that even if you put them in the most appropriate conditions with best teachers, they are unlikely to raise their voice and they are unlikely to gain some powers since they don’t know yet what is appropriate for them. This is education which transforms them into an individual who can think what is right or wrong for them.  , (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.

          2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 

           

          3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.

           

          4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist. This has unnecessarily been written to provoke the people. Can you locate your school out of the domain of any political inclination? By the way, for your kind information, it is not possible. In your next lines, it echoes as if you have not any political interests. To do education, you have to be political, otherwise no education is possible. By being political I mean to have a vision for human being, social structures, social institutions, communities and justification for it.   

           

          Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.

           

          Since analysis or fact based policies I have never came across such policies. Analysis and facts are used to support a vision for which policies are made. If such policies are made, these will lead us nowhere. are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.

           

          I  may sound cynical yes, since what you are seeking for is not actually possible- being nonpolitical is not possible at all. Politics seeks for change, for fulfillment of rights and duties, it has dreams and vision and their justifications. What you are referring is a misunderstanding of secularism and constitutional values., but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.

           

          I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.

           

          Pankaj

           

          Sir,

           

          The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., .No doubt that we need to take care of these aspects of schools. However, to say that overall expenditure’s 70 percent shall be allocated as salary of teachers seems to be highly arbitrary and rigid criterion. This is not an issue of home economics where we have ten rupees and we will spend it proportionally. You are considering a nation-state as a home of an individual. This kind of thinking is flawed and highly inappropriate theoretically since neither it accomplishes the commitments of nation state nor it is practically feasible.    (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, in theory it should be better (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. I don’t know, but I have one question, for example, do children know what they shall learn in science? If yes, it means they already understands width and breadth of science. Then what we are teaching them? If they don’t know, then who will decide?   

           

          We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', the moment you decide the interest of children, you become political my dear friend. and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.

           

          Pankaj

           

           



          On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
           

          Dear All,
           
          1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
           
          2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class interest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? :( sad)
           
          3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period.
           
          4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
           
          5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
           
          6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
           
          Pankaj
           
          From: janaki rajan <rajan.janaki@...>
          To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM

          Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

           
          Hi,
           
          This is with reference to Pankaj Jain's note beginning with:
           
          'The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education'.
          I have heard and read this point of view for some time now, and have been meaning to respond-here it is:
          1.       Analyzing share of education spending on all aspects is certainly legitimate, not least the teacher’s share.
          2.       The issue at hand is, what does it cost to run an effective school where children learn? If true recurring requirement*  is, say, Rs. 240, and Rs. 100 is being spent, then ofcourse things will be skewed and is prone to all kinds of explanations. If teacher pay is 80 out of the required 240, then the percentage of teacher pay to total budget is 30% but if only 100 is given when 240 is required, the teacher pay calculation looks like 80%! The 100 given is an arbitrary sum determined by the governments of the day without basis. It pushes and squeezes us to pit one aspect of education (teacher pay) with other aspects (books, teaching learning materials). Artifical pitting and polarization of one element (teachers’ pay) over another element (children’s learning) is not helpful in our quest for better teaching-learning for children. In any case, teacher salaries exist in several slabs, ranging from pitiful SSA pay, to contract wages for tens of years, to pay scales. Reports estimate that 50% of posts are filled by low wage teachers.
          3.       This reminds me of similar pitting that was done between higher education and school education spending in the 90s. Quality school education requires quality research, teacher educators, research based materials, books on education-all of which are in the higher education domain. The two intermesh and both need sufficient funds.
          4.       A certain amount is necessary condition for good schooling. This is irrespective of per capita. That amount, say, x, will have to be spent, and will look as huge percent in a low per capita country like India compared to others. Let’s not try to carve larger portions of diminishing pie. Let’s question adequacy of the size of the pie. As a fundamental right, education has to be the first charge on the exchequer. Rest follows.
          5.       To label those who seek adequate funds for teacher salary (30% or 80% depending on how we look at it) as sloganeering is unproductive. Demanding accountability is certainly productive.
          6.       Teachers and children are inseparable in the learning domain. To resent teacher portion of budget is like resenting parents spending more money on their clothes (more cloth) as adults compared to that for their children who need less. I realize this is clumsy, but can’t think fo any other way to put it!
          Hope this is of some use.      
          * [I am not taking facilities into account here only because they come under nonrecurring budgets-but that can be factored in too and we can arrive at the sum required as say, 300-the logic remains the same]  


          On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
           
          Sir,
           
          The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
           
          School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
           
          Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
           
          1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 
          2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
          3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
          4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
          5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
           
          Pankaj Jain
           

          From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
          To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:47 AM
          Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

           
          Don't link teachers' salary with budget. The Education Budget shd take account of all essential expenditures, including salaries. While Tamilnadu was allotting 30-35% of the budget for education in 1950's, now it has  come down to 14.6% Why do we spend so much on defence and police and still not able to maintain security? Lack of political will. Purchase of arms is beneficial-to whom?
          All these can't be easily brushed aside in such forum. Children are the most important characters in the School System. THey are genuinely concerned that their needs are not understood by curriculum-makers.
          ssr

          To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
          From: pjain2002@...
          Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:58 -0700
          Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

           

          Sir,
           
          The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. 
           
          We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
           
          Pankaj 

           
          From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
          To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
          Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

           
          Who are the most important characters in the Education System? They are children for without them schools become meaningless. But have they any voice in decision-making, curriculum management, disciplinary rules etc. Once I told a student that he had violated the School Rules. He retorted" Who made the rules?" For a moment I was angry, but immediately I felt he was right. what right we have to frame rules for them? I asked him if he would frame the rules. Oh, yes was the reply. For the next 20 days all the class pupil leaders sat together, discussed every rule in existence and came up with their own rules. First they named the rules " My way of Life". There was not a single negative in any rule nor mention of punishment. The rule that students should not come late was modified as" I will come to school on time every day, fully prepared for that day's lessons" One rule showed how considerate students were. Rule 17 said " When I travel in a bus and see a lady or child or an old man standing, I will offer my seat to them and go standing" It touched me much. They went  farther beyond the school premises. Students are capable of positive action, provided they are permitted to.
          ssr

          To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
          CC: kdssptewa@...
          From: pjain2002@...
          Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:15 -0700
          Subject: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

           

          School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
           
          Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
           
          1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children, (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
          2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
           
          3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
           
          4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist.
           
          Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
           
          Since analysis or fact based policies are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
           
          I  may sound cynical, but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
           
          I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
           
          Pankaj
           
          From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
          To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: kdssptewa@...
          Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:37 PM
          Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

           
          Dear Shabnam,

          Thank you for pointing out the challenges that India's rote education system heaps on a scary majority of all those who go to school.

          We are designed by the education to think in the past, imitate, follow and when someone aspires to lead, unfailingly begins following the path of remaining generations behind the rest of the world.

          They usually talk of opening PCOs after cell phones become viable. They talked about electronic typewriters after computers became available. They began talking about tablets that are useless after One Laptop per Child Laptops became available- the gap between the two being no less than  a human being and a robotic replica thereof..

          That has kept us where we are: 65 years of freedom to watch one-fifth of humanity with NO Nobel prize in science, if we were to consider that an accomplishment.

          65 years of sports with fewer medals as a nation than a single olympian like Phelps.

          The story is replicable everywhere, in every field. Save entrepreneurs who have begun dreaming to global scale, if not their creativity, methods or models and imitationally and not thinking ahead, not looking into the future, without a vision for the country or global leadership, save as a desire or a wishful thinking.

          The only salvation for India is to help everyone begin to learn learning, not rote education; begin learning for critical thinking and problem solving rather the for certificates and degrees alone with a vision of tomorrow rather than taking the next step without any roadmap.



          On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM, <shabnamhashmi@...> wrote:
           
          It is badly written with a lot of mistakes. If you want to tell the world that education standards are very good at least ensure that your communication is well written.

          There is a need to debate what is this education ? Is it producing good citizens, thinkers, humane peace loving citizens? Is the education ensuring that there are no prejudices, hatred , hierarchy in minds of the educated. Is the education giving the courage to stand against what is wrong and is it teaching questioning?
          Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
          From: Koraput district scst primary Teachers empoyees welfare associ <kdssptewa@...>
          Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:01:21 +0800 (SGT)
          To: agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com<agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com<chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com>; chennai@yahoogroups.com<chennai@yahoogroups.com>; educationrights@yahoogroups.com<educationrights@yahoogroups.com>; focusorissa@yahoogroups.com<focusorissa@yahoogroups.com>; ihro@yahoogroups.com<ihro@yahoogroups.com>; indiafirst@yahoogroups.com<indiafirst@yahoogroups.com>; indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com<indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com>; inviteplus@yahoogroups.com<inviteplus@yahoogroups.com>; issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com<issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; janshakti@yahoogroups.com<janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com<mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; osanet@yahoogroups.com<osanet@yahoogroups.com>; samukhya@yahoogroups.com<samukhya@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

           
          Education is the principal instrument of developing human capabilities. In India it is in the concurrent list. It is the main part of the government to provide education to its citizens. By which it will help to shape the destiny of the nation.
          But in recent times there is a sea change in the tools, technology and mode of education. In the post-independence era, the mode & method of education has continually evolved in Orissa and India. In the modern times to cater the needs of specific groups the need for differentiation in education method has also changed in Orissa. After independence Orissa is improving & competing with other states of India to become a prosperous state in the field of education.

          The literacy percentage of Orissa is improving highly. Now it has a number of Universities, General colleges, Medical, Engineering , Management, Ayurvedic, Homeopathic, Law, Dance & Music Colleges, B.E.D training Centers, C.T. and Hindi training Centers. Due to the high standard of education in Orissa Students from all over India are coming to Orissa for higher studies. With the increase of public-private participation, now the students of Orissa enjoying most modern facilities in education. With the change of time educational institutions like Xavier Institute of Business Management, Institute of Physics, Utkal Univrsity, National Institute of Technology-Rourkela, Biju Pattnaik University of Technology, IIMC-Dhenkanal, Kalinga Institute of Technology, S C B Medical College, Cuttack, V S S Medical College & Hospital, Burla  and so on dazzles Orissa’s name nationally and internationally in the filed of education.
          Orissa has always made concerted efforts to provide quality education to all. Prospects of a brighter future is evidently in the offing in view of certain major initiatives of the Government of Orissa, the Government of India and private parties.

          Fact of Orissa Education

          • The average literacy rate in Orissa is 63.08% during 2001, as against all India average of 64.8%.

          • Male literacy rate is 75.95% and female literacy rate is 50.51% during 2001.
          • 44,416 Primary Schools with 52.54 lakh enrolment and 97 lakh teachers in the State as on 2003-2004. There is one Primary School  for every 3.5 Sq.Km area.
          • Mid day Meal Programme has been operational since 1995. In 2003-04, 46.32 lakh children in 51,931 schools were brought under this scheme.
          • 14.233 Upper Primary Schools as on 2003-04. There is one Upper Primary School for each 10.94 km area in the State.
          • Overall dropout rate at the primary stage was 33.6%, the dropout rate for girls was 35.4% and for boys 31.9% during 2003-04.
          • Dropout rate at upper primary stage has decreased from 59% in 2002-03 & 57.5% in 2003-04. 56.5% boys dropped out inupper primary stage in 2003-04 while 58.6% girls dropped out in the same year.
          • Secondary stage of education from Classes VIII to X is under the academic control of the Board of Secondary Education. During 2003-04, 7,011 high schools were functioning in the State which 3,556 were Government High Schools and 657 were aided schools. During 2003-04, there was one High School for every 22.2 sq. km.
          • The dropout rate in high school has decreased from 69.5% in 2001-02 to 64.4% in 2003-04. 62.5% boys dropped out while 66.7% girls dropped out of high school in 2003-2004.
          • 1,112 General Colleges to provide facilities for higher secondary education in the State including 48 Government Colleges. The Council of Higher Secondary Education regulates higher secondary education, conducts examination and co-ordinate University Education.
          • During 2003-2004, 1,679 General Colleges were functioning, out of which 96 were Government and 601 were aided colleges.
          • There are 4 Government Training Colleges, six Colleges of Teachers Education and three Institutes of Advanced Study in Education, in the State.
          • The State has nine Universities.
          • Computer Education has been included as on optional subject in the secondary level by the Board of Secondary Education



          --
          Satish Jha 
          T: 301 841 7422
          F: 301 560 4909 
          ________________
           













        • rajagopalan ss
          very correct in your reply to Pankajji s remarks. A political vision is necessary for any change. Personal likes and prejudices shd not be allowed to influence
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1, 2012
            very correct in your reply to Pankajji's remarks. A political vision is necessary for any change. Personal likes and prejudices shd not be allowed to influence policies.
            ssr


            To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
            From: kuldeep.digantar@...
            Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 17:26:33 +0530
            Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             

            Dear Pankaj Ji

            I have some comments on your arguments. I have taken the all of your mails' text together to put them as a single text and inserted my comments in between the text wherever I disagree with you. The all my comments have been given in red color whereas the part that has been taken as reference point is marked with yellow color. Please see the text below.

            Regards

            kuldeep


            Dear All,

             

            1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc. On what basis is this being demanded, are their some criteria to decide this?

             

            2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- average is highly deceiving thing. Moreover, average spending at world level does not set a rule for a nation to spend the same amount. We may have our own priorities. per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED this may create problems in managing the funds properly. And such things happened/are happening in India (see for example a study by Padma Sarangapani on DIETs where they have found that once a rule is set to allocate a certain amount of fund to a particular head, it becomes very difficult to use this money for other purposes where it is needed desperately since the head it meant for does not need this anymore). Instead of this, I would prefer to allocate this money on the basis of actual needs.    things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class please revisit your construction “children class” here. The concept of “class” has different connotation. This concept has been a central theme in Marx’s thinking system and its zist, in words of Prabhat Patnaik, has not been in unique partitioning of society in some fixed globules. On the contrary it refers this partitioning with reference to the sphere of production. I have serious doubts whether children in schools of a country shall be visualized as a “class”.  nterest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? and this is neo-right-liberal reality that in the name of structural adjustments our education system is being gradually killed by reducing the expenditure on teacher preparation and twisting the criteria to identify a person as teacher. In the name of teacher, some semi-prepared people are being hired.) 

            3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period as if it has no implications!!! If it has, then it can’t be a simple arithmetic. If it has no implications, then why this exercise?.

             

            4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. incomparable things have been mentioned as basic premises of the arguments. Please note that education is essentially a context-tied phenomenon. Instead of referring some external criteria, we must refer our own criteria of better education as a nation. We must debate that what education can be called as good education not only in present India but also in future India being a part of world? Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  

             

            5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.

             

            6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, first of all it has not been proved yet by you (even in some positivistic sense) that it requires this kind of proportional allocation. Second, it is very problematic to say that higher expenditures “cannot be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights”. Fundamental rights cannot be looked at with reference to their monetary cost we need to pay for their fulfillment. Why? Because we value them as “fundamental” conditions of human life. We cannot leave our near and dear one to die since it requires a lot of money (and which can be arranged somehow) to sustain her life through some medical treatments. Why? Because we value the life of that person, not the money.

             

            Yes, you can raise some other kind of questions. Like-  How much a teacher shall earn as her salary in India? Is it possible to have some criteria to decide the amount of teachers’ salary? Do teachers deserve high salary? If yes, then what are those attributes which make them so worthy or deserving? If no, then why?

            By raising such questions and debating on them is the only rational way to decide something about such things.   

            if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.

             

            Pankaj

             

            School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.

             

            Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:

             

            1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children seems to be very simplistic and/or rather novice statement. On the one hand, you are ignoring that how socio-cultural backgrounds of children play a crucial role in determining the behaviour of teachers or peer group in schools with them. On the other hand, you are unnecessarily visualizing the children as someone who is voiceless and powerless. Please note that even if you put them in the most appropriate conditions with best teachers, they are unlikely to raise their voice and they are unlikely to gain some powers since they don’t know yet what is appropriate for them. This is education which transforms them into an individual who can think what is right or wrong for them.  , (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.

            2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 

             

            3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.

             

            4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist. This has unnecessarily been written to provoke the people. Can you locate your school out of the domain of any political inclination? By the way, for your kind information, it is not possible. In your next lines, it echoes as if you have not any political interests. To do education, you have to be political, otherwise no education is possible. By being political I mean to have a vision for human being, social structures, social institutions, communities and justification for it.   

             

            Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.

             

            Since analysis or fact based policies I have never came across such policies. Analysis and facts are used to support a vision for which policies are made. If such policies are made, these will lead us nowhere. are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.

             

            I  may sound cynical yes, since what you are seeking for is not actually possible- being nonpolitical is not possible at all. Politics seeks for change, for fulfillment of rights and duties, it has dreams and vision and their justifications. What you are referring is a misunderstanding of secularism and constitutional values., but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.

             

            I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.

             

            Pankaj

             

            Sir,

             

            The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., .No doubt that we need to take care of these aspects of schools. However, to say that overall expenditure’s 70 percent shall be allocated as salary of teachers seems to be highly arbitrary and rigid criterion. This is not an issue of home economics where we have ten rupees and we will spend it proportionally. You are considering a nation-state as a home of an individual. This kind of thinking is flawed and highly inappropriate theoretically since neither it accomplishes the commitments of nation state nor it is practically feasible.    (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, in theory it should be better (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. I don’t know, but I have one question, for example, do children know what they shall learn in science? If yes, it means they already understands width and breadth of science. Then what we are teaching them? If they don’t know, then who will decide?   

             

            We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', the moment you decide the interest of children, you become political my dear friend. and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.

             

            Pankaj

             

             



            On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
             

            Dear All,
             
            1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
             
            2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class interest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? :( sad)
             
            3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period.
             
            4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
             
            5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
             
            6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
             
            Pankaj
             
            From: janaki rajan <rajan.janaki@...>
            To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM

            Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             
            Hi,
             
            This is with reference to Pankaj Jain's note beginning with:
             
            'The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education'.
            I have heard and read this point of view for some time now, and have been meaning to respond-here it is:
            1.       Analyzing share of education spending on all aspects is certainly legitimate, not least the teacher’s share.
            2.       The issue at hand is, what does it cost to run an effective school where children learn? If true recurring requirement*  is, say, Rs. 240, and Rs. 100 is being spent, then ofcourse things will be skewed and is prone to all kinds of explanations. If teacher pay is 80 out of the required 240, then the percentage of teacher pay to total budget is 30% but if only 100 is given when 240 is required, the teacher pay calculation looks like 80%! The 100 given is an arbitrary sum determined by the governments of the day without basis. It pushes and squeezes us to pit one aspect of education (teacher pay) with other aspects (books, teaching learning materials). Artifical pitting and polarization of one element (teachers’ pay) over another element (children’s learning) is not helpful in our quest for better teaching-learning for children. In any case, teacher salaries exist in several slabs, ranging from pitiful SSA pay, to contract wages for tens of years, to pay scales. Reports estimate that 50% of posts are filled by low wage teachers.
            3.       This reminds me of similar pitting that was done between higher education and school education spending in the 90s. Quality school education requires quality research, teacher educators, research based materials, books on education-all of which are in the higher education domain. The two intermesh and both need sufficient funds.
            4.       A certain amount is necessary condition for good schooling. This is irrespective of per capita. That amount, say, x, will have to be spent, and will look as huge percent in a low per capita country like India compared to others. Let’s not try to carve larger portions of diminishing pie. Let’s question adequacy of the size of the pie. As a fundamental right, education has to be the first charge on the exchequer. Rest follows.
            5.       To label those who seek adequate funds for teacher salary (30% or 80% depending on how we look at it) as sloganeering is unproductive. Demanding accountability is certainly productive.
            6.       Teachers and children are inseparable in the learning domain. To resent teacher portion of budget is like resenting parents spending more money on their clothes (more cloth) as adults compared to that for their children who need less. I realize this is clumsy, but can’t think fo any other way to put it!
            Hope this is of some use.      
            * [I am not taking facilities into account here only because they come under nonrecurring budgets-but that can be factored in too and we can arrive at the sum required as say, 300-the logic remains the same]  


            On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
             
            Sir,
             
            The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
             
            School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
             
            Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
             
            1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 
            2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
            3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
            4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
            5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
             
            Pankaj Jain
             

            From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
            To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:47 AM
            Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             
            Don't link teachers' salary with budget. The Education Budget shd take account of all essential expenditures, including salaries. While Tamilnadu was allotting 30-35% of the budget for education in 1950's, now it has  come down to 14.6% Why do we spend so much on defence and police and still not able to maintain security? Lack of political will. Purchase of arms is beneficial-to whom?
            All these can't be easily brushed aside in such forum. Children are the most important characters in the School System. THey are genuinely concerned that their needs are not understood by curriculum-makers.
            ssr

            To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
            From: pjain2002@...
            Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:58 -0700
            Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             

            Sir,
             
            The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. 
             
            We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
             
            Pankaj 

             
            From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
            To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
            Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             
            Who are the most important characters in the Education System? They are children for without them schools become meaningless. But have they any voice in decision-making, curriculum management, disciplinary rules etc. Once I told a student that he had violated the School Rules. He retorted" Who made the rules?" For a moment I was angry, but immediately I felt he was right. what right we have to frame rules for them? I asked him if he would frame the rules. Oh, yes was the reply. For the next 20 days all the class pupil leaders sat together, discussed every rule in existence and came up with their own rules. First they named the rules " My way of Life". There was not a single negative in any rule nor mention of punishment. The rule that students should not come late was modified as" I will come to school on time every day, fully prepared for that day's lessons" One rule showed how considerate students were. Rule 17 said " When I travel in a bus and see a lady or child or an old man standing, I will offer my seat to them and go standing" It touched me much. They went  farther beyond the school premises. Students are capable of positive action, provided they are permitted to.
            ssr

            To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
            CC: kdssptewa@...
            From: pjain2002@...
            Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:15 -0700
            Subject: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

             

            School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
             
            Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
             
            1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children, (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
            2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
             
            3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
             
            4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist.
             
            Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
             
            Since analysis or fact based policies are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
             
            I  may sound cynical, but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
             
            I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
             
            Pankaj
             
            From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
            To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: kdssptewa@...
            Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:37 PM
            Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

             
            Dear Shabnam,

            Thank you for pointing out the challenges that India's rote education system heaps on a scary majority of all those who go to school.

            We are designed by the education to think in the past, imitate, follow and when someone aspires to lead, unfailingly begins following the path of remaining generations behind the rest of the world.

            They usually talk of opening PCOs after cell phones become viable. They talked about electronic typewriters after computers became available. They began talking about tablets that are useless after One Laptop per Child Laptops became available- the gap between the two being no less than  a human being and a robotic replica thereof..

            That has kept us where we are: 65 years of freedom to watch one-fifth of humanity with NO Nobel prize in science, if we were to consider that an accomplishment.

            65 years of sports with fewer medals as a nation than a single olympian like Phelps.

            The story is replicable everywhere, in every field. Save entrepreneurs who have begun dreaming to global scale, if not their creativity, methods or models and imitationally and not thinking ahead, not looking into the future, without a vision for the country or global leadership, save as a desire or a wishful thinking.

            The only salvation for India is to help everyone begin to learn learning, not rote education; begin learning for critical thinking and problem solving rather the for certificates and degrees alone with a vision of tomorrow rather than taking the next step without any roadmap.



            On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM, <shabnamhashmi@...> wrote:
             
            It is badly written with a lot of mistakes. If you want to tell the world that education standards are very good at least ensure that your communication is well written.

            There is a need to debate what is this education ? Is it producing good citizens, thinkers, humane peace loving citizens? Is the education ensuring that there are no prejudices, hatred , hierarchy in minds of the educated. Is the education giving the courage to stand against what is wrong and is it teaching questioning?
            Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
            From: Koraput district scst primary Teachers empoyees welfare associ <kdssptewa@...>
            Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:01:21 +0800 (SGT)
            To: agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com<agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com<chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com>; chennai@yahoogroups.com<chennai@yahoogroups.com>; educationrights@yahoogroups.com<educationrights@yahoogroups.com>; focusorissa@yahoogroups.com<focusorissa@yahoogroups.com>; ihro@yahoogroups.com<ihro@yahoogroups.com>; indiafirst@yahoogroups.com<indiafirst@yahoogroups.com>; indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com<indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com>; inviteplus@yahoogroups.com<inviteplus@yahoogroups.com>; issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com<issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; janshakti@yahoogroups.com<janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com<mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; osanet@yahoogroups.com<osanet@yahoogroups.com>; samukhya@yahoogroups.com<samukhya@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

             
            Education is the principal instrument of developing human capabilities. In India it is in the concurrent list. It is the main part of the government to provide education to its citizens. By which it will help to shape the destiny of the nation.
            But in recent times there is a sea change in the tools, technology and mode of education. In the post-independence era, the mode & method of education has continually evolved in Orissa and India. In the modern times to cater the needs of specific groups the need for differentiation in education method has also changed in Orissa. After independence Orissa is improving & competing with other states of India to become a prosperous state in the field of education.

            The literacy percentage of Orissa is improving highly. Now it has a number of Universities, General colleges, Medical, Engineering , Management, Ayurvedic, Homeopathic, Law, Dance & Music Colleges, B.E.D training Centers, C.T. and Hindi training Centers. Due to the high standard of education in Orissa Students from all over India are coming to Orissa for higher studies. With the increase of public-private participation, now the students of Orissa enjoying most modern facilities in education. With the change of time educational institutions like Xavier Institute of Business Management, Institute of Physics, Utkal Univrsity, National Institute of Technology-Rourkela, Biju Pattnaik University of Technology, IIMC-Dhenkanal, Kalinga Institute of Technology, S C B Medical College, Cuttack, V S S Medical College & Hospital, Burla  and so on dazzles Orissa’s name nationally and internationally in the filed of education.
            Orissa has always made concerted efforts to provide quality education to all. Prospects of a brighter future is evidently in the offing in view of certain major initiatives of the Government of Orissa, the Government of India and private parties.

            Fact of Orissa Education

            • The average literacy rate in Orissa is 63.08% during 2001, as against all India average of 64.8%.

            • Male literacy rate is 75.95% and female literacy rate is 50.51% during 2001.
            • 44,416 Primary Schools with 52.54 lakh enrolment and 97 lakh teachers in the State as on 2003-2004. There is one Primary School  for every 3.5 Sq.Km area.
            • Mid day Meal Programme has been operational since 1995. In 2003-04, 46.32 lakh children in 51,931 schools were brought under this scheme.
            • 14.233 Upper Primary Schools as on 2003-04. There is one Upper Primary School for each 10.94 km area in the State.
            • Overall dropout rate at the primary stage was 33.6%, the dropout rate for girls was 35.4% and for boys 31.9% during 2003-04.
            • Dropout rate at upper primary stage has decreased from 59% in 2002-03 & 57.5% in 2003-04. 56.5% boys dropped out inupper primary stage in 2003-04 while 58.6% girls dropped out in the same year.
            • Secondary stage of education from Classes VIII to X is under the academic control of the Board of Secondary Education. During 2003-04, 7,011 high schools were functioning in the State which 3,556 were Government High Schools and 657 were aided schools. During 2003-04, there was one High School for every 22.2 sq. km.
            • The dropout rate in high school has decreased from 69.5% in 2001-02 to 64.4% in 2003-04. 62.5% boys dropped out while 66.7% girls dropped out of high school in 2003-2004.
            • 1,112 General Colleges to provide facilities for higher secondary education in the State including 48 Government Colleges. The Council of Higher Secondary Education regulates higher secondary education, conducts examination and co-ordinate University Education.
            • During 2003-2004, 1,679 General Colleges were functioning, out of which 96 were Government and 601 were aided colleges.
            • There are 4 Government Training Colleges, six Colleges of Teachers Education and three Institutes of Advanced Study in Education, in the State.
            • The State has nine Universities.
            • Computer Education has been included as on optional subject in the secondary level by the Board of Secondary Education



            --
            Satish Jha 
            T: 301 841 7422
            F: 301 560 4909 
            ________________
             















          • Pankaj Jain
            Dear Kuldeep Bhai,   There is a clear divide between my view that Education spending is, and should be, meant MAINLY for improving the learning outcomes, as
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 1, 2012
              Dear Kuldeep Bhai,
               
              There is a clear divide between my view that Education spending is, and should be, meant MAINLY for improving the learning outcomes, as per national consensus-curriculum, while for many others, all national resources, including Educational Spending, should be spent as per their political goals-priorities; infinte combinations of views possible by part mixing of priorities mouthed by extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist etc. etc.. 
               
              I however, resignedly, accept the fact of political power of the side you have symathy with, and its implications that children's education will be on the receiving side of current political power alignment. I also accept the smartness of sopkesman of currently dominant interest groups in blaming various other 'exploiters' for the ill state of children's education, to deflect the attention from the success of 'organized teachers and their representatives' in cornering most of the benefits of money spent in the name of improving children's education.  
               
              I am glad that you have not attempted to counter certain facts that (i) India now spend on elementary education of its children more than most countries in the world, in terms of the share of our national income, and (ii) Indian school teachers now receive almost 700% of world's average, in terms of contries' respective per capita income. Whatever be your political priorities, politco-economic implications of these facts, and hopefully, resultant policy directions, can not be permanently ignored.     
               
              Good luck with your efforts to improve India's school system , according to your political priorities.
               
              Pankaj  

              From: Kuldeep Garg <kuldeep.digantar@...>
              To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, September 1, 2012 5:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               
              Dear Pankaj Ji
              I have some comments on your arguments. I have taken the all of your mails' text together to put them as a single text and inserted my comments in between the text wherever I disagree with you. The all my comments have been given in red color whereas the part that has been taken as reference point is marked with yellow color. Please see the text below.
              Regards
              kuldeep

              Dear All,
               
              1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc. On what basis is this being demanded, are their some criteria to decide this?
               
              2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- average is highly deceiving thing. Moreover, average spending at world level does not set a rule for a nation to spend the same amount. We may have our own priorities. per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED this may create problems in managing the funds properly. And such things happened/are happening in India (see for example a study by Padma Sarangapani on DIETs where they have found that once a rule is set to allocate a certain amount of fund to a particular head, it becomes very difficult to use this money for other purposes where it is needed desperately since the head it meant for does not need this anymore). Instead of this, I would prefer to allocate this money on the basis of actual needs.    things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class please revisit your construction “children class” here. The concept of “class” has different connotation. This concept has been a central theme in Marx’s thinking system and its zist, in words of Prabhat Patnaik, has not been in unique partitioning of society in some fixed globules. On the contrary it refers this partitioning with reference to the sphere of production. I have serious doubts whether children in schools of a country shall be visualized as a “class”.  nterest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? and this is neo-right-liberal reality that in the name of structural adjustments our education system is being gradually killed by reducing the expenditure on teacher preparation and twisting the criteria to identify a person as teacher. In the name of teacher, some semi-prepared people are being hired.) 
              3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period as if it has no implications!!! If it has, then it can’t be a simple arithmetic. If it has no implications, then why this exercise?.
               
              4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. incomparable things have been mentioned as basic premises of the arguments. Please note that education is essentially a context-tied phenomenon. Instead of referring some external criteria, we must refer our own criteria of better education as a nation. We must debate that what education can be called as good education not only in present India but also in future India being a part of world? Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
               
              5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
               
              6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, first of all it has not been proved yet by you (even in some positivistic sense) that it requires this kind of proportional allocation. Second, it is very problematic to say that higher expenditures “cannot be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights”. Fundamental rights cannot be looked at with reference to their monetary cost we need to pay for their fulfillment. Why? Because we value them as “fundamental” conditions of human life. We cannot leave our near and dear one to die since it requires a lot of money (and which can be arranged somehow) to sustain her life through some medical treatments. Why? Because we value the life of that person, not the money.
               
              Yes, you can raise some other kind of questions. Like-  How much a teacher shall earn as her salary in India? Is it possible to have some criteria to decide the amount of teachers’ salary? Do teachers deserve high salary? If yes, then what are those attributes which make them so worthy or deserving? If no, then why?
              By raising such questions and debating on them is the only rational way to decide something about such things.   
              if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
               
              Pankaj
               
              School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
               
              Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
               
              1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children seems to be very simplistic and/or rather novice statement. On the one hand, you are ignoring that how socio-cultural backgrounds of children play a crucial role in determining the behaviour of teachers or peer group in schools with them. On the other hand, you are unnecessarily visualizing the children as someone who is voiceless and powerless. Please note that even if you put them in the most appropriate conditions with best teachers, they are unlikely to raise their voice and they are unlikely to gain some powers since they don’t know yet what is appropriate for them. This is education which transforms them into an individual who can think what is right or wrong for them.  , (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
              2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
               
              3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
               
              4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist. This has unnecessarily been written to provoke the people. Can you locate your school out of the domain of any political inclination? By the way, for your kind information, it is not possible. In your next lines, it echoes as if you have not any political interests. To do education, you have to be political, otherwise no education is possible. By being political I mean to have a vision for human being, social structures, social institutions, communities and justification for it.   
               
              Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
               
              Since analysis or fact based policies I have never came across such policies. Analysis and facts are used to support a vision for which policies are made. If such policies are made, these will lead us nowhere. are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
               
              I  may sound cynical yes, since what you are seeking for is not actually possible- being nonpolitical is not possible at all. Politics seeks for change, for fulfillment of rights and duties, it has dreams and vision and their justifications. What you are referring is a misunderstanding of secularism and constitutional values., but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
               
              I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
               
              Pankaj
               
              Sir,
               
              The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., .No doubt that we need to take care of these aspects of schools. However, to say that overall expenditure’s 70 percent shall be allocated as salary of teachers seems to be highly arbitrary and rigid criterion. This is not an issue of home economics where we have ten rupees and we will spend it proportionally. You are considering a nation-state as a home of an individual. This kind of thinking is flawed and highly inappropriate theoretically since neither it accomplishes the commitments of nation state nor it is practically feasible.    (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, in theory it should be better (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. I don’t know, but I have one question, for example, do children know what they shall learn in science? If yes, it means they already understands width and breadth of science. Then what we are teaching them? If they don’t know, then who will decide?   
               
              We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', the moment you decide the interest of children, you become political my dear friend. and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
               
              Pankaj
               
               


              On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
               
              Dear All,
               
              1. What is being demanded is not scaling back of teachers' salary, as that is no politically feasible, even if desirable. What is being demanded/ suggested is that out of education spend, a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
               
              2. The old argument that Rs. 100 is being spent, instead of desirable amount of Rs. 250, was correct in 1980s, but IS NO MORE correct for elementary education. In fact, if the World, on average, is spending Rs. 250/- per child on elementary education, India is spending Rs. 300/-. So, spending more, which was probably right in 1980s, and 1990s, is no more the right thing, and only correct thing is to spend this Rs. 300/- proportionally on ALL NEEDED things for effective education. Unfortunately, this is against the political empowerment of 'teachers as a class', so it will not happen. The hard reality of political alignment in India pitches children's class interest against the class-interest of teachers, so the powerless children class is bound to suffer. (This is a neo-left-liberal reality? :( sad)
               
              3. Dividing average teacher salary in India by nation's per capita income is not neo-liberal arithmatic. It is simple arithmatic, period.
               
              4. It is totally elitist, and politically partisan, to suggest there is something 'absolute' minimum that must be spent on education, or paid as teacher salary, irrespective of per capita. Just for clarity, China and Singapore have achieved much better school education for ALL their children with much less spending than India. Bangladesh has gone ahead of India in ensuring schooling for poor-girls by spending much less than India, even by the standards of poor countries low per capita.  
               
              5. We indeed need to get out of slogeneering mode to analyze what was done by China, Singapore and Bangladesh to take education to ALL their children, including poor and girls, and come to sesnsible solutions and nonpartisan slogans-policies.
               
              6. Demanding to pay certain salary to a section of population, which is 700% of worldwide norm, can not be justified under any interpretation of fundamental rights, if it takes the fudamental right of a child to receive effective education, which requires spending a minimum of 5% on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
               
              Pankaj
               
              From: janaki rajan <rajan.janaki@...>
              To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:43 PM

              Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               
              Hi,
               
              This is with reference to Pankaj Jain's note beginning with:
               
              'The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education'.
              I have heard and read this point of view for some time now, and have been meaning to respond-here it is:
              1.       Analyzing share of education spending on all aspects is certainly legitimate, not least the teacher’s share.
              2.       The issue at hand is, what does it cost to run an effective school where children learn? If true recurring requirement*  is, say, Rs. 240, and Rs. 100 is being spent, then ofcourse things will be skewed and is prone to all kinds of explanations. If teacher pay is 80 out of the required 240, then the percentage of teacher pay to total budget is 30% but if only 100 is given when 240 is required, the teacher pay calculation looks like 80%! The 100 given is an arbitrary sum determined by the governments of the day without basis. It pushes and squeezes us to pit one aspect of education (teacher pay) with other aspects (books, teaching learning materials). Artifical pitting and polarization of one element (teachers’ pay) over another element (children’s learning) is not helpful in our quest for better teaching-learning for children. In any case, teacher salaries exist in several slabs, ranging from pitiful SSA pay, to contract wages for tens of years, to pay scales. Reports estimate that 50% of posts are filled by low wage teachers.
              3.       This reminds me of similar pitting that was done between higher education and school education spending in the 90s. Quality school education requires quality research, teacher educators, research based materials, books on education-all of which are in the higher education domain. The two intermesh and both need sufficient funds.
              4.       A certain amount is necessary condition for good schooling. This is irrespective of per capita. That amount, say, x, will have to be spent, and will look as huge percent in a low per capita country like India compared to others. Let’s not try to carve larger portions of diminishing pie. Let’s question adequacy of the size of the pie. As a fundamental right, education has to be the first charge on the exchequer. Rest follows.
              5.       To label those who seek adequate funds for teacher salary (30% or 80% depending on how we look at it) as sloganeering is unproductive. Demanding accountability is certainly productive.
              6.       Teachers and children are inseparable in the learning domain. To resent teacher portion of budget is like resenting parents spending more money on their clothes (more cloth) as adults compared to that for their children who need less. I realize this is clumsy, but can’t think fo any other way to put it!
              Hope this is of some use.      
              * [I am not taking facilities into account here only because they come under nonrecurring budgets-but that can be factored in too and we can arrive at the sum required as say, 300-the logic remains the same]  


              On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
               
              Sir,
               
              The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
               
              School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
               
              Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
               
              1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 
              2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
              3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
              4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
              5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
               
              Pankaj Jain
               

              From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
              To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 5:47 AM
              Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               
              Don't link teachers' salary with budget. The Education Budget shd take account of all essential expenditures, including salaries. While Tamilnadu was allotting 30-35% of the budget for education in 1950's, now it has  come down to 14.6% Why do we spend so much on defence and police and still not able to maintain security? Lack of political will. Purchase of arms is beneficial-to whom?
              All these can't be easily brushed aside in such forum. Children are the most important characters in the School System. THey are genuinely concerned that their needs are not understood by curriculum-makers.
              ssr

              To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
              From: pjain2002@...
              Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:58 -0700
              Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               

              Sir,
               
              The example you gave is very encouraging, but the real important decions like (i) how many and which teachers to hire (that costs 80-85% of total money spent on children's education in children's name), (ii) should teacher salary budget be not allowed to go beyound 70% of total spending, so that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc., (iii) is B.Ed. qualification better compared to M.Sc. for a science-math teacher, (iv) should children have freedom to change school if they find their current school bad, (iv) what all should be the curriculum coverage, CAN NOT BE LEFT to the assembly of children. 
               
              We need to find some way to make the above critical decisions of 'adult decision makers' be informed by the 'interest of children', and not of various politically inclined adult-groups. Otherwise, 95% of school experience will be governed by politics, and only 1-2% will be cosmetically improved through children's autonomous will.
               
              Pankaj 

               
              From: rajagopalan ss <ssrajagopalan@...>
              To: "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
              Subject: RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               
              Who are the most important characters in the Education System? They are children for without them schools become meaningless. But have they any voice in decision-making, curriculum management, disciplinary rules etc. Once I told a student that he had violated the School Rules. He retorted" Who made the rules?" For a moment I was angry, but immediately I felt he was right. what right we have to frame rules for them? I asked him if he would frame the rules. Oh, yes was the reply. For the next 20 days all the class pupil leaders sat together, discussed every rule in existence and came up with their own rules. First they named the rules " My way of Life". There was not a single negative in any rule nor mention of punishment. The rule that students should not come late was modified as" I will come to school on time every day, fully prepared for that day's lessons" One rule showed how considerate students were. Rule 17 said " When I travel in a bus and see a lady or child or an old man standing, I will offer my seat to them and go standing" It touched me much. They went  farther beyond the school premises. Students are capable of positive action, provided they are permitted to.
              ssr

              To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
              CC: kdssptewa@...
              From: pjain2002@...
              Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:15 -0700
              Subject: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

               

              School Education is probably the largest and most active political field of action, comparable to the politics of poverty removal or of economic growth or any other.
               
              Let us understand key facts and key actors involved in school education:
               
              1. It covers voiceless and powerless 220 million school age children, (more than entire tribal or entire SC, or entire minority population), who are easy to both ignore and exploit by various categories of powerful adults.
              2. It  covers India's largest organized labour force, consisting of more than  3 million school teachers, whose strength is bigger than of all trade-labour unions combined, which no political party can antagonize. 
               
              3. It involves annual spending of more than Rs. 1 lakh twenty five thousand crores, (2.3% of GDP) every year.
               
              4. Control of School education is seen as critical by all kind of politics, whether it is extreme left like Naxals, Religious fundamentalists like Taliban, secular ideologues like many writers on this forum, or rightist.
               
              Such large numbers and political comittments necessarily means that political interest will try to exploit and capture school education policy for their own benefits.
               
              Since analysis or fact based policies are tough to promote in popular discourse, education policy has been captured by slogan shouting groups and politically inclined individuals-forums.
               
              I  may sound cynical, but it is necessary to face facts if one wants to support facts based rational, non-political, analysis.
               
              I, therefore, would urge all of us to re-examine how much of our views are colored by our politics and that applies even to the views in this mail-string.
               
              Pankaj
               
              From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
              To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: kdssptewa@...
              Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 12:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

               
              Dear Shabnam,

              Thank you for pointing out the challenges that India's rote education system heaps on a scary majority of all those who go to school.

              We are designed by the education to think in the past, imitate, follow and when someone aspires to lead, unfailingly begins following the path of remaining generations behind the rest of the world.

              They usually talk of opening PCOs after cell phones become viable. They talked about electronic typewriters after computers became available. They began talking about tablets that are useless after One Laptop per Child Laptops became available- the gap between the two being no less than  a human being and a robotic replica thereof..

              That has kept us where we are: 65 years of freedom to watch one-fifth of humanity with NO Nobel prize in science, if we were to consider that an accomplishment.

              65 years of sports with fewer medals as a nation than a single olympian like Phelps.

              The story is replicable everywhere, in every field. Save entrepreneurs who have begun dreaming to global scale, if not their creativity, methods or models and imitationally and not thinking ahead, not looking into the future, without a vision for the country or global leadership, save as a desire or a wishful thinking.

              The only salvation for India is to help everyone begin to learn learning, not rote education; begin learning for critical thinking and problem solving rather the for certificates and degrees alone with a vision of tomorrow rather than taking the next step without any roadmap.



              On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:56 PM, <shabnamhashmi@...> wrote:
               
              It is badly written with a lot of mistakes. If you want to tell the world that education standards are very good at least ensure that your communication is well written.

              There is a need to debate what is this education ? Is it producing good citizens, thinkers, humane peace loving citizens? Is the education ensuring that there are no prejudices, hatred , hierarchy in minds of the educated. Is the education giving the courage to stand against what is wrong and is it teaching questioning?
              Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
              From: Koraput district scst primary Teachers empoyees welfare associ <kdssptewa@...>
              Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:01:21 +0800 (SGT)
              To: agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com<agamiorissa@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com<arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>; chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com<chhattishgarh-net@yahoogroups.com>; chennai@yahoogroups.com<chennai@yahoogroups.com>; educationrights@yahoogroups.com<educationrights@yahoogroups.com>; focusorissa@yahoogroups.com<focusorissa@yahoogroups.com>; ihro@yahoogroups.com<ihro@yahoogroups.com>; indiafirst@yahoogroups.com<indiafirst@yahoogroups.com>; indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com<indiathinkernet@yahoogroups.com>; inviteplus@yahoogroups.com<inviteplus@yahoogroups.com>; issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com<issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; janshakti@yahoogroups.com<janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com<mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; osanet@yahoogroups.com<osanet@yahoogroups.com>; samukhya@yahoogroups.com<samukhya@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: [Arkitect India] EDUCATION FACTS FOR KNOW THE ALL PEOPLES GROUPS.

               
              Education is the principal instrument of developing human capabilities. In India it is in the concurrent list. It is the main part of the government to provide education to its citizens. By which it will help to shape the destiny of the nation.
              But in recent times there is a sea change in the tools, technology and mode of education. In the post-independence era, the mode & method of education has continually evolved in Orissa and India. In the modern times to cater the needs of specific groups the need for differentiation in education method has also changed in Orissa. After independence Orissa is improving & competing with other states of India to become a prosperous state in the field of education.

              The literacy percentage of Orissa is improving highly. Now it has a number of Universities, General colleges, Medical, Engineering , Management, Ayurvedic, Homeopathic, Law, Dance & Music Colleges, B.E.D training Centers, C.T. and Hindi training Centers. Due to the high standard of education in Orissa Students from all over India are coming to Orissa for higher studies. With the increase of public-private participation, now the students of Orissa enjoying most modern facilities in education. With the change of time educational institutions like Xavier Institute of Business Management, Institute of Physics, Utkal Univrsity, National Institute of Technology-Rourkela, Biju Pattnaik University of Technology, IIMC-Dhenkanal, Kalinga Institute of Technology, S C B Medical College, Cuttack, V S S Medical College & Hospital, Burla  and so on dazzles Orissa’s name nationally and internationally in the filed of education.
              Orissa has always made concerted efforts to provide quality education to all. Prospects of a brighter future is evidently in the offing in view of certain major initiatives of the Government of Orissa, the Government of India and private parties.

              Fact of Orissa Education

              • The average literacy rate in Orissa is 63.08% during 2001, as against all India average of 64.8%.

              • Male literacy rate is 75.95% and female literacy rate is 50.51% during 2001.
              • 44,416 Primary Schools with 52.54 lakh enrolment and 97 lakh teachers in the State as on 2003-2004. There is one Primary School  for every 3.5 Sq.Km area.
              • Mid day Meal Programme has been operational since 1995. In 2003-04, 46.32 lakh children in 51,931 schools were brought under this scheme.
              • 14.233 Upper Primary Schools as on 2003-04. There is one Upper Primary School for each 10.94 km area in the State.
              • Overall dropout rate at the primary stage was 33.6%, the dropout rate for girls was 35.4% and for boys 31.9% during 2003-04.
              • Dropout rate at upper primary stage has decreased from 59% in 2002-03 & 57.5% in 2003-04. 56.5% boys dropped out inupper primary stage in 2003-04 while 58.6% girls dropped out in the same year.
              • Secondary stage of education from Classes VIII to X is under the academic control of the Board of Secondary Education. During 2003-04, 7,011 high schools were functioning in the State which 3,556 were Government High Schools and 657 were aided schools. During 2003-04, there was one High School for every 22.2 sq. km.
              • The dropout rate in high school has decreased from 69.5% in 2001-02 to 64.4% in 2003-04. 62.5% boys dropped out while 66.7% girls dropped out of high school in 2003-2004.
              • 1,112 General Colleges to provide facilities for higher secondary education in the State including 48 Government Colleges. The Council of Higher Secondary Education regulates higher secondary education, conducts examination and co-ordinate University Education.
              • During 2003-2004, 1,679 General Colleges were functioning, out of which 96 were Government and 601 were aided colleges.
              • There are 4 Government Training Colleges, six Colleges of Teachers Education and three Institutes of Advanced Study in Education, in the State.
              • The State has nine Universities.
              • Computer Education has been included as on optional subject

                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
            • Satish Jha
              Guru, That is a novel way of looking at the challenge indeed. The fact is that most markets compensate per the value created or productivity as measured
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
                Guru,

                That is a novel way of looking at the challenge indeed.

                The fact is that most markets compensate per the "value" created or "productivity " as measured in terms of what comes out of any activity.

                Teachers in India include both the teachers who know what they know, who are smart enough to cash in on their skills and those who are not really equipped to teach at all.

                Most teachers in government schools are unlikely to get the salary they get now in the private school system and yet the private school teachers in villages and small towns are gaining momentum as they have pressures to perform.

                However, what they teach does not usually qualify them to teach your children or mine. They are good for only teaching the children of the 95% Indians who do not have the capacity to seek alternatives that are helpful in exploring a new future.

                Let us not call what is imparted in Indian schools for the 95% any kind of education at all, any more than one would call rural roads any kind of modern road at all.

                The only test I believe any thinking person should apply is whether they would send their children to learn at these schools from the teachers they have? If not, let us bring them to a standard acceptable to them before calling these schools educational institutions and their teaching employees as teachers.

                On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Guru गुरु <Guru@...> wrote:
                 

                On Thursday 30 August 2012 07:29 AM, Pankaj Jain wrote:
                 
                Sir,
                 
                The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
                 
                School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
                 
                Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
                 
                1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 

                As they say, there are three kinds of lies, the third one being statistics... I have heard this arguments many times... which is a neo-liberal (pro choice/voucher et al)  one - that teachers salary as a share of national income or per capita income is much higher in India... implying teachers earn more than they should!! and this needs reduction...

                the problem here is not that teachers earn too much. naturally in a poor country where percapita income is very low, this ratio will be high. but this will be the case with all salaries in the organized sector.

                For eg. if one were to take income of a NGO head in India the similar share of the income over percapita national income would be much much higher than that of a developed country. Mr Jain would this not apply to your own compensation as well? compared to a similar role in a developed country?

                I have heard this neo-liberal argument which is a statistical decoy to push for reducing teacher salaries and promoting the poor private school model (low salaries with 'accountability' through insecurity and exploitation of teachers).

                of course the government school system has scope for reform, but that reform has to be through higher investment including into its accountability and transparency and into genuine teacher empowerment ... not by slashing public expenditure on public education. We need to increase overall expenditure (the 6% of gdp on education itself has never been met) to increase the share of the other items, not reduce salaries..

                regards,
                Guru


                2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
                3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
                4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
                5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
                 
                Pankaj Jain
                 
                 



                --
                Satish Jha 
                T: 301 841 7422
                F: 301 560 4909 
                ________________
                 

              • vbs udaipur
                That is a good argument but the fact (if true) that Mr Jain s compensation or other middle class and organized sector compensations are high does not justify
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
                  That is a good argument but the fact (if true) that Mr Jain's compensation or other middle class and organized sector compensations are high does not justify the expense on salaries if it is so much more than the per capita income of the children families being taught.
                  Over expense on defense also does not justify that. May be all these need to be reduced to reach a larger benefit to the poorer.
                  Not clear how though


                  From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
                  To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012 3:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

                   
                  Guru,

                  That is a novel way of looking at the challenge indeed.

                  The fact is that most markets compensate per the "value" created or "productivity " as measured in terms of what comes out of any activity.

                  Teachers in India include both the teachers who know what they know, who are smart enough to cash in on their skills and those who are not really equipped to teach at all.

                  Most teachers in government schools are unlikely to get the salary they get now in the private school system and yet the private school teachers in villages and small towns are gaining momentum as they have pressures to perform.

                  However, what they teach does not usually qualify them to teach your children or mine. They are good for only teaching the children of the 95% Indians who do not have the capacity to seek alternatives that are helpful in exploring a new future.

                  Let us not call what is imparted in Indian schools for the 95% any kind of education at all, any more than one would call rural roads any kind of modern road at all.

                  The only test I believe any thinking person should apply is whether they would send their children to learn at these schools from the teachers they have? If not, let us bring them to a standard acceptable to them before calling these schools educational institutions and their teaching employees as teachers.

                  On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Guru गुरु <Guru@...> wrote:
                   
                  On Thursday 30 August 2012 07:29 AM, Pankaj Jain wrote:
                   
                  Sir,
                   
                  The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
                   
                  School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
                   
                  Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
                   
                  1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 

                  As they say, there are three kinds of lies, the third one being statistics... I have heard this arguments many times... which is a neo-liberal (pro choice/voucher et al)  one - that teachers salary as a share of national income or per capita income is much higher in India... implying teachers earn more than they should!! and this needs reduction...

                  the problem here is not that teachers earn too much. naturally in a poor country where percapita income is very low, this ratio will be high. but this will be the case with all salaries in the organized sector.

                  For eg. if one were to take income of a NGO head in India the similar share of the income over percapita national income would be much much higher than that of a developed country. Mr Jain would this not apply to your own compensation as well? compared to a similar role in a developed country?

                  I have heard this neo-liberal argument which is a statistical decoy to push for reducing teacher salaries and promoting the poor private school model (low salaries with 'accountability' through insecurity and exploitation of teachers).

                  of course the government school system has scope for reform, but that reform has to be through higher investment including into its accountability and transparency and into genuine teacher empowerment ... not by slashing public expenditure on public education. We need to increase overall expenditure (the 6% of gdp on education itself has never been met) to increase the share of the other items, not reduce salaries..

                  regards,
                  Guru


                  2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
                  3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
                  4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
                  5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
                   
                  Pankaj Jain
                   
                   



                  --
                  Satish Jha 
                  T: 301 841 7422
                  F: 301 560 4909 
                  ________________
                   



                • rajagopalan ss
                  Some appear to be die-hard haters of teachers. A ceiling on income may be imposed for all. Even the ceiling of remuneration in the Corporate Sector has been
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 2, 2012
                    Some appear to be die-hard haters of teachers. A ceiling on income may be imposed for all. Even the ceiling of remuneration in the Corporate Sector has been removed. Gandhiji prescribed a ratio of 1:10 for salaries from the lowest paid and the President. Fixation of salary by Pay Commissions follow accepted practices based on need, nature  f work, importance of the post etc., Where are concrete steps to eradicate poverty? Our attention shd be directed against such derelictions, rather than on mere salaries of teachers who are also entitled to a life with dignity.
                    ssr


                    To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                    From: vbsudr@...
                    Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:25:29 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

                     

                    That is a good argument but the fact (if true) that Mr Jain's compensation or other middle class and organized sector compensations are high does not justify the expense on salaries if it is so much more than the per capita income of the children families being taught.
                    Over expense on defense also does not justify that. May be all these need to be reduced to reach a larger benefit to the poorer.
                    Not clear how though


                    From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
                    To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012 3:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

                     
                    Guru,

                    That is a novel way of looking at the challenge indeed.

                    The fact is that most markets compensate per the "value" created or "productivity " as measured in terms of what comes out of any activity.

                    Teachers in India include both the teachers who know what they know, who are smart enough to cash in on their skills and those who are not really equipped to teach at all.

                    Most teachers in government schools are unlikely to get the salary they get now in the private school system and yet the private school teachers in villages and small towns are gaining momentum as they have pressures to perform.

                    However, what they teach does not usually qualify them to teach your children or mine. They are good for only teaching the children of the 95% Indians who do not have the capacity to seek alternatives that are helpful in exploring a new future.

                    Let us not call what is imparted in Indian schools for the 95% any kind of education at all, any more than one would call rural roads any kind of modern road at all.

                    The only test I believe any thinking person should apply is whether they would send their children to learn at these schools from the teachers they have? If not, let us bring them to a standard acceptable to them before calling these schools educational institutions and their teaching employees as teachers.

                    On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Guru गुरु <Guru@...> wrote:
                     
                    On Thursday 30 August 2012 07:29 AM, Pankaj Jain wrote:
                     
                    Sir,
                     
                    The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
                     
                    School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
                     
                    Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
                     
                    1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'. 

                    As they say, there are three kinds of lies, the third one being statistics... I have heard this arguments many times... which is a neo-liberal (pro choice/voucher et al)  one - that teachers salary as a share of national income or per capita income is much higher in India... implying teachers earn more than they should!! and this needs reduction...

                    the problem here is not that teachers earn too much. naturally in a poor country where percapita income is very low, this ratio will be high. but this will be the case with all salaries in the organized sector.

                    For eg. if one were to take income of a NGO head in India the similar share of the income over percapita national income would be much much higher than that of a developed country. Mr Jain would this not apply to your own compensation as well? compared to a similar role in a developed country?

                    I have heard this neo-liberal argument which is a statistical decoy to push for reducing teacher salaries and promoting the poor private school model (low salaries with 'accountability' through insecurity and exploitation of teachers).

                    of course the government school system has scope for reform, but that reform has to be through higher investment including into its accountability and transparency and into genuine teacher empowerment ... not by slashing public expenditure on public education. We need to increase overall expenditure (the 6% of gdp on education itself has never been met) to increase the share of the other items, not reduce salaries..

                    regards,
                    Guru


                    2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
                    3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income. 
                    4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc. 
                    5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
                     
                    Pankaj Jain
                     
                     



                    --
                    Satish Jha 
                    T: 301 841 7422
                    F: 301 560 4909 
                    ________________
                     




                  • saraswathi.rao@welthungerhilfe.de
                    Most of the teachers also come from either lower or lower middle class. If they do not possess the required skills, we need to acknowledge that they are also
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 4, 2012

                      Most of the teachers also come from either lower or lower middle class. If they do not possess the required skills, we need to acknowledge that they are also the product of our education system. In a way the logic presented by few is incorrect - just because the teachers work in Government run schools do not provide quality input, they deserve to be less paid, so by doing that how do we expect to change the status quo or improve the learning level of children in these schools? The otherway of looking at  the issue is that  they are paid reasonably well, so they should be expected / monitored to  perform well as it happens in private schools. It also would be worth investing some efforts rather  in analysing how some teachers get transfer to their desired locations? How some managed to get transfer from the original posting area, say for instance from remote tribal villages to a better place? What is the transfer policy and who does get benefit from that?

                      Regards

                      Saraswathi Gopala Rao

                      "When some people go hungry...
                      It is not food that's in short supply..
                      IT'S JUSTICE"



                      RE: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

                      rajagopalan ss  to:arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                      09/03/2012 10:05 AM

                      Sent by:arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com

                      Please respond to arkitectindia





                       

                      Some appear to be die-hard haters of teachers. A ceiling on income may be imposed for all. Even the ceiling of remuneration in the Corporate Sector has been removed. Gandhiji prescribed a ratio of 1:10 for salaries from the lowest paid and the President. Fixation of salary by Pay Commissions follow accepted practices based on need, nature  f work, importance of the post etc., Where are concrete steps to eradicate poverty? Our attention shd be directed against such derelictions, rather than on mere salaries of teachers who are also entitled to a life with dignity.
                      ssr


                      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                      From: vbsudr@...
                      Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 10:25:29 -0700
                      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education

                       


                      That is a good argument but the fact (if true) that Mr Jain's compensation or other middle class and organized sector compensations are high does not justify the expense on salaries if it is so much more than the per capita income of the children families being taught.
                      Over expense on defense also does not justify that. May be all these need to be reduced to reach a larger benefit to the poorer.
                      Not clear how though


                      From: Satish Jha <satish.jha@...>
                      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012 3:22 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Politics of Education


                       
                      Guru,

                      That is a novel way of looking at the challenge indeed.

                      The fact is that most markets compensate per the "value" created or "productivity " as measured in terms of what comes out of any activity.

                      Teachers in India include both the teachers who know what they know, who are smart enough to cash in on their skills and those who are not really equipped to teach at all.

                      Most teachers in government schools are unlikely to get the salary they get now in the private school system and yet the private school teachers in villages and small towns are gaining momentum as they have pressures to perform.

                      However, what they teach does not usually qualify them to teach your children or mine. They are good for only teaching the children of the 95% Indians who do not have the capacity to seek alternatives that are helpful in exploring a new future.

                      Let us not call what is imparted in Indian schools for the 95% any kind of education at all, any more than one would call rural roads any kind of modern road at all.

                      The only test I believe any thinking person should apply is whether they would send their children to learn at these schools from the teachers they have? If not, let us bring them to a standard acceptable to them before calling these schools educational institutions and their teaching employees as teachers.

                      On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Guru गुरु <Guru@...> wrote:
                       
                      On Thursday 30 August 2012 07:29 AM, Pankaj Jain wrote:
                       
                      Sir,
                       
                      The teachers constitute the largest and most powerful interest group in school system, so their share of education spending is THE LEGITIMATE issue in analyzing the politics of education.
                       
                      School policy exists to provide education to children, not to provide employment and benefits to teachers alone. Since education requires many things, it is legitimate to demand that a minimum of 5% is spent on school maintenance, 5% on children's books, 5% on children's transport, 5% of administration-management, 5% educational tours for learning outside the classes, 5% on better furniture and better school facilities used by children etc.
                       
                      Some additional facts before we get into sloganeering:
                       
                      1. India now spends MORE THAN MOST COUNTRIES in the world, as a share of total national income, on 'elementary education', and on 'teacher salary'.

                      As they say, there are three kinds of lies, the third one being statistics... I have heard this arguments many times... which is a neo-liberal (pro choice/voucher et al)  one - that teachers salary as a share of national income or per capita income is much higher in India... implying teachers earn more than they should!! and this needs reduction...

                      the problem here is not that teachers earn too much. naturally in a poor country where percapita income is very low, this ratio will be high. but this will be the case with all salaries in the organized sector.

                      For eg. if one were to take income of a NGO head in India the similar share of the income over percapita national income would be much much higher than that of a developed country. Mr Jain would this not apply to your own compensation as well? compared to a similar role in a developed country?

                      I have heard this neo-liberal argument which is a statistical decoy to push for reducing teacher salaries and promoting the poor private school model (low salaries with 'accountability' through insecurity and exploitation of teachers).

                      of course the government school system has scope for reform, but that reform has to be through higher investment including into its accountability and transparency and into genuine teacher empowerment ... not by slashing public expenditure on public education. We need to increase overall expenditure (the 6% of gdp on education itself has never been met) to increase the share of the other items, not reduce salaries..

                      regards,
                      Guru



                      2. India gives its teacher a salary almost 700% of World's average in terms of per-capita income.
                      3. India's defence budget is significantly less than its education budget, and is much smaller than of China and Pakistan, in terms of % of national income.
                      4. The reason why the share of education budget in TN might have declined is not a reduction in the size of education budget but rise in other legitimate expenditures such on women and children's health, social infrastructure, mid-day meal, public infrastructure etc.
                      5. I am not saying that problems and waste does not exist in other sectors, but to hide the politics of children's exploitation by our school system, under the pretext of problems in other sectors, or by the politics of teacher empowerment, is not correct.  
                       
                      Pankaj Jain
                       
                       



                      --
                      Satish Jha
                      T: 301 841 7422
                      F: 301 560 4909
                      ________________











                      Zur Welthungerhilfe Jubiläumsseite



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