Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

17015Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots

Expand Messages
  • Pankaj Jain
    Aug 12, 2013
      Dear Shamsul Bhai,

      My understanding of 'Hindutva', not Hindu religion, is what has been stated by the Supreme court-Justice Verma, and not what some others, either proponents or opponents, view it to be.    

      I am not a social activist or a social researcher, so I can not keep inferring the meaning of some statement of some people made X number of years. What is relevant to me, as an ordinary citizen-observer, are the 'real actions' of people who now matter in our life. My series of postings have been only in relation to description of actions of Mr. Modi, which have not been found objectionable by the credible and unbiased institutional mechanisms. My point is limited to pointing out that we should accept our own limitations and biases, and limits of our capability to find truth about others, and instead rely on credible institutional mechanisms. Otherwise, we will act as no different from fundamentalist groups like Naxal or Taliban who do not believe in any institutional mechanism and wish to replace every political order with a social-political order of their linking. Self-righteous fundamentalism of all kind is wrong, be it religious of Taliban type, politico-economic of Naxal type, or politico-secular of the emergent variety in India.

      As far Hindutva is concerned, I have neither competence nor interest to discuss it, and am happy to go by the view of Justice Verma.

      I will be happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with you if there indeed is evidence of neo-nazi or fascist behavior. Indian highest Judiciary does not believe that to be the case regarding the behavior of Mr. Modi.

      You are, however, welcome to believe that you have greater competence, investigative capability, and wisdom than the combination of Indian forums that have carefully an judiciously reviewed the actions of Mr. Modi, and found these to be lawful, so far. 



      From: Shamsul Islam <notoinjustice@...>
      To: Shukla Sen <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 5:52 PM
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots

      Pankaj ji,
      I am shocked reading your latest posting. You wrote: "Given your assumption of guilt of Hindu's as Fascist, with which I do not agree, there is no possibility of any meaningful agreement or dialogue". Where did on this earth you find me holding this view; in which posting or my writings? Why should you be dishonest? I do not understand. You address me as brother and I address you as 'Ji' but you resort to this kind of argument, I am hurt.
      I will stress once again that to be a Hindu and to be a follower of Hindutva are two different things. Let me explain. Mahatma Gandhi was a Hindu, not following Hindutva. He was killed by Hindutva cadres who glorified his killing as 'vadh', declared it as a killing ordained by God. The Hindutva fascists did not mind killing a Hindu who was decried by Muslim Leagures as a fanatic Hindu. I will end by saying that Hindutva does not pose danger to minorities (according to Hindutva, Muslims & Christians will be thrown out of India because these are foreign religions and Sikhism, Jainism & Buddhism will be allowed to exist as part of Hinduism) only but all democratic and inclusive norms of Hindu society. It is Neo-Nazism's Indian version. It is a lethal mix of theocracy and totalitarianism as decreed by Manu Code.
      With regards,
      S. Islam
      Link for more of my writings: http://du-in.academia.edu/ShamsulIslam

      On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
      Shri Shamsul Bhai,

      I think we differ on what the believer in Hinduism and Hindutva mean. I think you are interpreting the Indian tradition-experience from the prism of European experience, where monolithic religious tradition, and the role of King/ Rulers and the State/ Government in propogating specific religion was a common practice, and where the (religious) majority had tried to exterminate religious minority. In India, that has not happened, certainly in the last 500 years.

      Given your assumption of guilt of Hindu's as Fascist, with which I do not agree, there is no possibility of any meaningful agreement or dialogue. I simply reject the charge of fascism regarding the behavior of Hindus, and there is no evidence of the fascist behavior (different from beliefs) of those who you term as proponents of Hindutva.  As far discussing the supposed belief of people is conccerned, I do not think either you or I have special capability to judge what people have in their heart and mind, so there is no point in discussing people's belief, without referring to specific evidence of their behavior.


      From: Shamsul Islam <notoinjustice@...>
      To: Shukla Sen <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 11:15 PM

      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots

      Pankaj ji,
      You are right that Nehru & Congress were responsible for Partition. But why do you forget names of Sardar Patel and Jinnah who supported Partition.
      So far as Hindutva is concerned if you are going to invent your new definition of Hindutva that may be a considered afresh. But what Hindutva gang mean by it, there is no confusion. Hindutva is Fascism and in the Indian context stands for following things:
      1. Hindutva believes in two - nation
      theory predating Muslim League(1938/1940)
      2. Hindutva decries Indian National
      3. Hindutva ran Coalition Govts with
      Muslim League and collaborating with British, when
      the Indian nationalists were in jail during 1942-1943
      4. Hindutva supported British effort to resist Netaji
      Subhas Bose's INA and collaborating with British in recruitment of soldiers for the British Army.
      5. Hindutva   organizations like RSS & Hindu Mahasabha led by 'Veer' Savarkar shamelessly betrayed Freedom Struggle and collaborated with the British colonial masters, before and after 2nd world war.
      6. Hindutva denigrates such National Heroes like
      Bhagat Singh, Chandrashekhar Azad, Ashfaquallah and denigrating them for their
      "Superficial Patriotism" or chichore rashtravaad.
      7. Hindutva hates Democracy & Federalism.
      8. Hindutva's position on Caste &
      women—blind support of Manu.
      9. Manu's prescription for women and Shudras.
      10. Hindutva celebrates killing of Gandhi.
      11.Neo-Nazi mass murderers glorified Hindutva.
      Thus Hindutva stands for Racism, Casteism and totalitarianism by its own definition and standards. Please, respond to specific issues raised above and do not divert..
      Shamsul Islam

      On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
      @ In Parliamentary system CM in States and PM at Centre are collectively responsible.

      By that consideration, Pt. Nehru and Congress were responsible for the death of close to million in post-independence riots, Rajiv Gandhi and Congress of the death of more than thousands Sikhs, etc. etc. Who do you prefer?? Sir, your proposition is not rational or just.

      As Talibani or Jamait Islami, or Muslum League's interpretation-practice of Islam should not make Islam unacceptable, certain wrongs done in the name of Hindutva should not condemn its believers to the realm of unacceptability.

      The interpretation of Hindutva by rabid communalists is surely problematic, but its interpretation by current RSS-BJP is more moderate-secular than moderate Islam and Christianity, so why should a practicing Muslim or Christians have objection the belief in Hindutva. It is understandable that aggressive anti-religious, left-atheist, should oppose RRS's  Hindutve, but its opposition by moderate Islam and secular Chritians is not rational. 

      Anyway, given the sensitivity of faith in people's lives, we need to reject specific acts of commission or omission, not the overall belief system of those whose some acts are unacceptable.


      From: Shamsul Islam <notoinjustice@...>
      To: Shukla Sen <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 2, 2013 5:20 PM

      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots

      The officers and BJP/RSS leaders of Gujarat government which is led by Modi are not isolated matter. In Parliamentary system CM in States and PM at Centre are collectively responsible. Moreover, Modi is not an individual but the most prominent face of Hindutva which even RSS/BJP admits. Hindutva stands for undoing a democratic-secular India and establish rule of "one flag, one ideology and one leader"  as declared by Guru Golwalkar.
      Shamsul Islam

      On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...> wrote:
      Of course. What it shows is that the Judicial System did find the charges reported against Mrs. Kodnani, contained in the NHRC report, credible and she was  punished for that.

      But , how does that prove-indicate complicity of the CM? NHRC report is very balanced, and there is no implication of the involvement of CM. In fact, the reported events in NHRC report at Vadodara and Godhara shows the administration and the Govt. in very good light.

      No body has ever denied that around 1000 people died in the communal riots, so obviously there are many guilty. But, who is guilty, and of what, is to be determined on the basis of evidence, and not on assumptions.


      From: Avinash Kumar <avinash@...>
      To: arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 1:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots

      And how about the conviction of Maya Kodnani, the glorious minister in Modi regime? Is that the only sufficient evidence for you???

      Avinash Kumar

      From:        Pankaj Jain <pjain2002@...>
      To:        "arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com" <arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com>,
      Date:        07/31/2013 01:16 PM
      Subject:        Re: [Arkitect India] Evidence in the NHRC report on Gujarat riots
      Sent by:        arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com


      This report is based upon a visit which was limited to listening the presentation by various people, which could be factual or allegations or perceptions. This report is more like a FIR and not a report of any in depth inquiry conducted by NHRC. This report and much more has already been properly examined both by the courts, Supreme court appointed investigation teams, SIT, and the Inquiry Commission.

      FIR is not even a charge sheet, so what credence is to be given to it, other than a basis of starting an inquiry. Sure this type of NHRC report was a good enough basis of starting inquiries, but that IS NOT the conclusion of judicial inquiry.

      So, where is the certification or endorsement of any facts in this report?


      From: Avinash Kumar <avinash@...>
      Tuesday, July 30, 2013 5:41 PM
      Re: [Arkitect India] Provocative thoughts on Narendra Modi.

      This is turning out to be really an ill informed debate by those who claim there is really little evidence to prove Modi's role or complicity in the mass killings.
      Forget about everything else, just click on this link

      which was basically a report submitted by National Human Rights Commission, a Constitutionally mandated body to look into these issues.
      Late Justice Verma headed this fact finding report.

      Avinash Kumar

      Bhasha Singh <bhasha.k@...>
      07/30/2013 05:35 PM
      Re: [Arkitect India] Provocative thoughts on Narendra Modi.
      Sent by:        


      Its not riots...it was genocide...state sponsered...pl...stop playing for blood
      On Jul 24, 2013 7:30 PM, "Pankaj Jain" <pjain2002@...> wrote:

      There is really little evidence, different from allegations, which make Mr. Modi's actions (or non-actions) worse than those of Pandit Nehru (1947), or Rajeev Gandhi (1986?), or Naik (CM-Maharashtra in 1992), Saikia (2012), Mulayam Uadav (UP-Maliana, ?) etc.  in controlling communal riots. In fact, his success in putting a stop to the trend of almost bi-annual communal riots in Gujarat over 1975-2002, in controlling the aftermath of attack on Akshar Dham, and in de-fanging the VHP in Gujarat is the stuff of which any secularist should be proud of.  

      True, there are many areas where development is lagging behind expectations in Gujarat, but isn't it inevitable. As with the riots, the outcomes are not always controllable by the Govt.. What Govt. should be held accountable is the errors of commission and omission. It will be better if the critics point out specific errors of omission or commissions that his Govt. did with regards to poverty-inequality, education, sex-ratios, health etc. compared to other State Govts. that are admired.


      From: Sukla Sen <sukla.sen@...>
      IHRO <
      ihro@yahoogroups.com>; issueonline <issuesonline_worldwide@yahoogroups.com>; bharat-chintan@...; indiathinkersnet <indiathinkersnet@yahoogroups.com>; arkitectindia@yahoogroups.com; mahajanapada <Mahajanapada@yahoogroups.com>; bahujan <Bahujan@yahoogroups.com>; sacred-illusions <sacred-illusions@...>; invitesplus@yahoogroups.com; Janshakti <Janshakti@yahoogroups.com>; Indian <indianfirst@yahoogroups.com>
      Tuesday, July 23, 2013 4:32 PM
      [Arkitect India] Second palli sabha in Niyamgiri deals double blow to Odisha govt

      Date: 22 July 2013

      Published on Down To Earth (

      Second palli sabha in Niyamgiri deals double blow to Odisha government


      Sayantan Bera [1]
      Issue Date:
      Kesarpadi residents cancel government’s settlement of community forest rights; unanimously reject Vedanta bauxite mining proposal
      District judge Sarat Chandra Misra walks up the forest path to Kesarpadi, his “orderly” holding the umbrella, under a tight security cordon (Photos: Sayantan Bera)
      Two days of pouring rain did little to dampen the spirit of the forest people of Niyamgiri. The second palli sabha or village council meeting at Kesarpadi in Rayagada district took a critical decision today: it cancelled Odisha state government’s proposed settlement of community and religious claims to the forests. The tribal hamlet also unanimously rejected the proposed bauxite mining inside the forest hills.
      This double blow to the state government and Vedanta Aluminium Limited follows close on the heels of the first palli sabha at Serkapadi where residents
      rejected the mining proposal on July 18 last week[2]. Following up on the Supreme Court order of April 18[3], the Odisha state government selected 12 villages—seven from Rayagada and five from Kalahandi district—to take a call on the proposed bauxite mining inside Niyamgiri hill range and whether it will infringe on their religious and cultural rights.
      A joint venture of the Orissa Mining Corporation Limited (OMCL) and Sterlite Industries, the Indian arm of the London Stock Exchange-listed Vedanta, wants to mine the forests for bauxite, to feed Vedanta’s alumina refinery on the foothills of Niyamgiri hills at Lanjigarh. At stake is 72 million tonnes of estimated bauxite deposits and an investment of Rs 40,000 crore by Vedanta in the state of Odisha.
      The palli sabha at Kesarpadi started almost forty minutes late because of rains. District judge of Rayagada, Sarat Chandra Misra, appointed observer by the Supreme Court, had to brave the rains and walk on the narrow forest path to reach Kesarpadi. Of the 36 voters in the Dongria Kondh tribal hamlet, 33 were in attendance—23 women outnumbering the 10 men.  
      Right at the beginning, Dondu Kutruka a young Dongria Kondh demanded the joint verification report by the state government, that proposed to settle the villagers’ community and religious claims to the forests, be rejected. “You people wrote everything in the office and never came to the village to verify. Now write whatever we say correctly and read it out. You cannot make a fool of us every time,” he warned the chair.
      On July 6, a team from the state government visited Kesarpadi to prepare a joint verification report to settle the villagers’ community and religious claims to the forests. The settlement report arbitrarily allotted community claims, for instance between 0.5 to 1.9 acres (one acre equals 0.4 hectare) for the five perennial streams in the village.
      The entire religious rights were settled with a mere 0.11 acres for local deities[4] (PDF of verification report [5]).
      Kesarpadi residents gave thumb impressions only after their rights over the entire Niyamgiri hills were recorded in the resolution
      “The entire Niyamgiri spread over Rayagada and Kalahandi is ours. You can take our life but we will not give it for mining,” thundered Kutruka. “Your temples are made of brick and cement. Ours are made of earth, leaves and the forests,” said the bejuni, village priestess of Kesarpadi.
      All the 33 residents of the village took the mike to reject proposed bauxite mining. “We get our Kosla and mandiya (minor millets) from the dongar (shift and burn cultivation plots on hill slope). These jungles are as much ours as it for the leopards and bears. We will not give it for mining,” said the village forest rights committee president Suku Kutruka.
      Before signing the minutes of the meeting, Kesarpadi residents ensured that their religious and community claims to the entire Niyamgiri is recorded in the resolution. They also claimed the proposed bauxite mining site of Dhangrabhata or Niyamdongar—the mythical birthplace of their ancestral kin and principal deity Niyamraja—as part of their religious and cultural rights.
      In an act of solidarity, Dongria Kondh women came from faraway villages and stood outside the Palli Sabha venue
      “We don’t want land titles in portions of the forests. Why should we, when everything belongs to us?” asked Lado Sikaka, leader of the Dongria Kondh who walked over three hours to reach Kesarpadi in time for the palli sabha. As happened in the previous palli sabha at Serkapadi, this one also saw several other tribals arriving at the venue and sitting outside in solidarity.
      “People today rejected the faulty government report that tried to limit their community and religious claims. The mood is upbeat and we are expecting similar resolutions from all the other palli sabhas,” said a jubilant Bhala Chandra Sadangi, CPI (ML) leader and advisor to the Niyamgiri Suraksha Samiti, the local resistance group.
      Tomorrow, Tadijhola, a non-tribal village in Kalahandi district will take a call on the mining proposal. The village can only be reached on foot, an hour’s walk through forest hills from the nearest docking point for cars and bikes. Hope the rains won’t play too much of a spoilsport.

      Source URL:

      Peace Is Doable

    • Show all 42 messages in this topic