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Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction

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  • Denise Bensusan
    Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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      Derek,

      Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


      Denise
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Derek Williams
      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


      I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
      to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
      back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
      money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
      broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
      now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
      believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
      candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
      candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
      how to relate to the general public.

      I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
      had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
      office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
      fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
      one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
      is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
      Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
      majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
      bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
      don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
      good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

      Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
      keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
      elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
      on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
      need more people like these two running for office.

      I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
      such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
      manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
      one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
      arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
      pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
      training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

      Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
      regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
      (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
      their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
      their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
      Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
      salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
      this story:

      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

      Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

      Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
      pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
      that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
      manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

      You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
      want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
      barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
      with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
      trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

      So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
      would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
      FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
      overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
      privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
      there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
      any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
      can and cannot put in their bodies.

      I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
      have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
      benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
      them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
      medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
      such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
      words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
      freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
      and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
      theirs.)

      Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
      contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
      supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
      and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
      without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
      that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
      keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
      reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
      is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
      money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
      too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
      when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
      this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
      weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
      less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
      backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
      created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
      dollar you and I work so hard for.

      Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
      state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
      accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
      so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
      inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
      this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
      do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
      advertisements?

      By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
      County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
      the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
      yet.

      These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
      issues?

      Derek








      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
      > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
      choices of
      > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
      > themselves. To hell with that!
      >
      >
      >
      > Sandy Price
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      Bensusan
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      >
      > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
      much that
      > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Derek
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
      > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
      know
      > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
      end
      > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
      for
      > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
      we
      > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
      good
      > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
      > shenanigans.
      >
      > Derek Williams
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
      <s@r...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
      > >
      > > Sandy Price
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      > Bensusan
      > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
      > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
      > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > Forwarded for your interest:
      > >
      > > Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > by Ron Paul
      > > by Ron Paul
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
      Washington
      > scandal
      > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
      > Koreagate;
      > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
      Dome.
      > Possibly so.
      > > It's certainly serious and significant.
      > >
      > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
      with
      > the mess.
      > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
      > requirements, and
      > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
      assured
      > we mean
      > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
      > Congress. It is
      > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
      leadership
      > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
      > crisis of
      > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
      > well. But it's
      > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
      of
      > the
      > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
      refuse
      > to
      > > properly identify and deal with.
      > >
      > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
      way
      > Congress is
      > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
      attitudes
      > about what
      > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
      won't
      > do much to
      > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
      > addressing the
      > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
      leaders
      > and writing
      > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
      achieve
      > nothing.
      > >
      > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
      > solution to
      > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
      > Perhaps some of
      > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
      others
      > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
      > miserably corrupt
      > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
      state of
      > denial.
      > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
      reveals
      > more and
      > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
      and
      > to what
      > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
      > irresponsible
      > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
      successive
      > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
      > recipients of
      > > the largesse.
      > >
      > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
      > significantly
      > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
      especially
      > those who
      > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
      system
      > that has
      > > evolved over the decades.
      > >
      > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
      scant
      > outcry over
      > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
      > poorer and
      > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
      the
      > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
      > master the
      > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
      ones
      > who truly
      > > benefit.
      > >
      > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
      > dependency on
      > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
      itself
      > as the
      > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
      > leadership are
      > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
      > >
      > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
      > itself to
      > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
      > >
      > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
      our
      > serious
      > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
      founders
      > detested
      > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
      > documents. Today,
      > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
      > life,
      > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
      > miles away.
      > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
      No one
      > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
      > allowed to rule
      > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
      > >
      > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
      notion
      > that a
      > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
      loot
      > confiscated
      > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
      morally
      > and
      > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
      > wonder a
      > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
      developed.
      > Add this to
      > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
      decades
      > due to a
      > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
      intervention,
      > and we
      > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
      learn
      > the tricks
      > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
      > their aides
      > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
      more
      > lucrative
      > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
      > process invites
      > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
      > because of the
      > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
      > generates.
      > >
      > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
      > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
      people
      > truly
      > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
      lobbyists
      > and
      > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
      problem
      > will be
      > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
      worse.
      > >
      > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
      > proposition.
      > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
      identifying
      > its source,
      > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
      > states: "Congress shall
      > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
      the
      > government
      > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
      > >
      > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
      corruption
      > comes from
      > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
      So
      > what do we
      > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
      for
      > guidance
      > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
      addressing
      > bribery,
      > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
      with
      > the
      > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
      > regulations are
      > > unnecessary.
      > >
      > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
      > citizens, and the
      > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
      > that need to
      > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
      direction.
      > Get rid of
      > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
      power
      > of
      > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
      the
      > Abramoff
      > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
      would be
      > a lot
      > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
      > removed.
      > >
      > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
      which is
      > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
      > accomplished
      > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
      character.
      > Members
      > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
      the
      > path to a
      > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
      of
      > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
      the
      > temptation
      > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
      are
      > > acceptable.
      > >
      > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
      interest
      > favoritism
      > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
      at
      > stake.
      > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
      grown
      > accustomed
      > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
      Only
      > when the
      > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
      earmarks
      > in the
      > > budget will not solve the problem.
      > >
      > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
      types
      > are petty
      > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
      > Abramoffs in mere
      > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
      bogged
      > down in
      > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
      > already, but
      > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
      actually
      > will cost
      > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
      done
      > with.
      > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
      unpredictable,
      > because
      > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
      the
      > war had
      > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
      bucks
      > being
      > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
      > corporations.
      > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
      > process. And
      > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
      > Dissenters
      > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
      that a
      > little
      > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
      do
      > much to
      > > solve.
      > >
      > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
      national
      > deficit,
      > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
      > allies, and
      > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
      > destructive
      > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
      entire
      > Middle
      > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
      > >
      > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
      over
      > the last
      > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
      > trillion dollars,
      > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
      Our
      > total
      > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
      > dollars. Most
      > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
      system,
      > and the new
      > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
      pension
      > funds are
      > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
      taxpayers. We
      > are
      > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
      to
      > finance this
      > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
      > debtor nation
      > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
      hardly
      > the way to
      > > secure a sound economy.
      > >
      > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
      > oblivious to the
      > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
      no
      > resistance
      > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
      > nearly 2 ½
      > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
      > demands. The
      > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
      > These
      > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
      > tinkering with
      > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
      > >
      > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
      and
      > members
      > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
      > capture a piece
      > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
      > effectiveness
      > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
      > >
      > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
      > morally and
      > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
      questioned.
      > It is the
      > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
      > poor and
      > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
      the
      > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
      of
      > all the
      > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
      while
      > delaying
      > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
      generation.
      > >
      > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
      > special
      > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
      > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
      the
      > question -
      > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
      > willingness to
      > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
      limited
      > and may
      > > well diminish in the future.
      > >
      > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
      create
      > huge amounts
      > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
      rise
      > and call
      > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
      depreciated
      > dollar don't
      > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
      promote
      > the corrupt
      > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
      > unsophisticated buy in
      > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
      to
      > another, and
      > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
      > central banks
      > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
      > counterfeiting.
      > >
      > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
      from
      > savings, and
      > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
      > counterfeiter has no
      > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
      The
      > incentive
      > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
      whose
      > people are
      > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
      only
      > way we can
      > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
      the
      > foreign
      > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
      > wealth that we
      > > enjoy.
      > >
      > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
      of
      > illegal
      > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
      Mexico
      > and
      > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
      our
      > economy
      > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
      > education and
      > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
      dependent on
      > our
      > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
      of
      > debt becomes
      > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
      United
      > States will
      > > change.
      > >
      > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
      use
      > the money
      > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
      > corporations, and
      > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
      > ones at the
      > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
      > dollars to buy
      > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
      By
      > then their
      > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
      > goes down.
      > >
      > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
      > thirty-four
      > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
      > Industries go
      > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
      > middle class,
      > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
      > hopes to keep
      > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
      > struggle to
      > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
      ability to
      > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
      > problem: it all
      > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
      and
      > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
      the
      > end are
      > > already appearing.
      > >
      > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
      a
      > consequence
      > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
      > dollar price
      > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
      > increase).
      > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
      time-
      > honored and
      > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
      55%.
      > The
      > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
      > soundness of its
      > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
      she
      > depreciated
      > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
      > downfall. That
      > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
      > >
      > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
      not
      > yet on
      > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
      problem is
      > being
      > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
      terms,
      > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
      > We'll make
      > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
      learn
      > how to be
      > > more ethical.
      > >
      > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
      and
      > hides a
      > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
      creation
      > is hard to
      > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
      our
      > economic,
      > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
      > >
      > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
      > (helping the
      > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
      to
      > capitalize
      > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
      > Eventually
      > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
      > borrowing,
      > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
      that
      > > distributes loot by majority vote.
      > >
      > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
      > government
      > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
      > controlled and
      > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
      to
      > accept our
      > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
      question,
      > despite the
      > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
      > >
      > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
      in
      > policy
      > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
      > lot. And
      > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
      > until there is
      > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
      > currency, and a
      > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
      > confidence.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
      over
      > with
      > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
      > government and
      > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
      toward
      > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
      that
      > creates
      > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
      > feed off the
      > > corrupt system.
      > >
      > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
      wealth
      > from the
      > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
      the
      > same.
      > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
      value
      > of each
      > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
      > wealthy in the
      > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
      and
      > more uneasy
      > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
      in
      > context of
      > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
      > >
      > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
      not
      > an
      > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
      will
      > come of
      > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
      in
      > our personal
      > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
      > around the
      > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
      > lobbyists
      > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
      > understand
      > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
      > petition their
      > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
      > pervasive
      > > problem.
      > >
      > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
      > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
      > American people
      > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
      > >
      > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
      > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
      > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
      > > 4.. No more nation building;
      > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
      > > 6.. No more deficits;
      > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
      > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
      > embarrass those
      > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
      current
      > policy;
      > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
      unpatriotic or
      > disloyal
      > > to the country;
      > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
      budget
      > spending
      > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
      > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
      > international NGOs,
      > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
      > corporate
      > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
      > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
      law-
      > abiding
      > > American citizens;
      > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
      liberty
      > by
      > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
      tax
      > violators,
      > > and gun ownership.
      > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
      as
      > an
      > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
      principle
      > of the
      > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
      provide
      > checks and
      > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
      judiciary)
      > that spies
      > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
      wars,
      > and
      > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
      to
      > be a
      > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
      > >
      > > January 19, 2006
      > >
      > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
      > >
      > > Denise
      > >
      > > Denise Bensusan
      > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
      > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
      > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
      > >
      > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
      Constitution
      > of the
      > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
      the
      > United
      > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
      Courts,
      > not to
      > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
      pervert
      > the
      > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      >
      > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
      subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >








      Yahoo! Groups Links









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sandra Price
      I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
        believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
        you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
        will be implicated.



        Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
        pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



        Sandy

        -----Original Message-----
        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



        Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
        his
        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
        work to change the law."

        Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
        I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
        is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

        As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
        Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
        them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
        speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

        Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sandra Price
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


        Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
        and
        honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
        Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
        on
        this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
        prison.
        Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
        extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
        with
        these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
        Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
        coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
        tooth fairy.



        I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
        recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
        fringe
        on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
        silly.
        The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
        breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
        tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
        1970
        when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
        enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
        the
        writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
        Price
        (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
        petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



        For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
        the
        people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
        fine.
        HHHH

        You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
        work to change the law.



        Sandy



        -----Original Message-----
        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



        Sandy,

        I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
        family
        threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
        race?

        I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
        that's
        what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
        try to put my hands on them and forward them.

        I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
        to
        become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



        ---- Original Message -----
        From: Sandra Price
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


        Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
        many
        issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
        Their
        candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
        the
        government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
        several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
        Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
        and
        amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
        who
        believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
        the
        laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
        Senate.




        The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
        the
        Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
        with
        many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
        declared
        criminals.



        I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
        rules
        of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
        every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
        Bush
        Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
        is
        legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
        run
        by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
        lives and will eliminate our state rights.



        I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
        authority
        of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
        not
        want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
        Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
        has
        the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
        taken
        away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
        the
        mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

        HHHH



        There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
        changing
        what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
        will
        end up supporting chaos.



        Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
        elections
        in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
        overboard
        in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
        the
        current parties are selling at this time.



        I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
        floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
        way
        they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



        Sandy Pricee has



        _____



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        _____

        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



        * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



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        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



        _____



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        Yahoo! Groups Links








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        SPONSORED LINKS


        E
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=E+government&w1=E+government&w2=Governm
        ent+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=Gove
        rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
        government

        Government
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+procurement&w1=E+government&
        w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+wom
        en&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=x08HqhIkgDQfcWV
        fJx8BIg> procurement

        Government
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        11Q> leasing


        Government
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+grants+for+women&w1=E+govern
        ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
        r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
        ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

        Government
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+lease&w1=E+government&w2=Gov
        ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
        Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
        w> lease

        Government
        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+contract&w1=E+government&w2=
        Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&
        w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=TJmcpxEiYC9WXJ2wWg
        pJYQ> contract



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        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Denise Bensusan
        Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Good points Sandy!

          Thanks
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sandra Price
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
          believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
          you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
          will be implicated.



          Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
          pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



          Sandy

          -----Original Message-----
          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



          Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
          his
          organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
          but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
          work to change the law."

          Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
          I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
          is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

          As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
          Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
          them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
          speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

          Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sandra Price
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
          and
          honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
          Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
          on
          this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
          prison.
          Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
          extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
          with
          these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
          Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
          coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
          tooth fairy.



          I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
          recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
          fringe
          on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
          silly.
          The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
          breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
          tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
          1970
          when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
          enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
          the
          writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
          Price
          (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
          petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



          For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
          the
          people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
          fine.
          HHHH

          You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
          organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
          but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
          work to change the law.



          Sandy



          -----Original Message-----
          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



          Sandy,

          I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
          family
          threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
          race?

          I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
          that's
          what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
          try to put my hands on them and forward them.

          I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
          to
          become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



          ---- Original Message -----
          From: Sandra Price
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
          many
          issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
          Their
          candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
          the
          government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
          several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
          Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
          and
          amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
          who
          believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
          the
          laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
          Senate.




          The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
          the
          Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
          with
          many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
          declared
          criminals.



          I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
          rules
          of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
          every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
          Bush
          Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
          is
          legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
          run
          by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
          lives and will eliminate our state rights.



          I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
          authority
          of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
          not
          want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
          Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
          has
          the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
          taken
          away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
          the
          mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

          HHHH



          There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
          changing
          what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
          will
          end up supporting chaos.



          Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
          elections
          in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
          overboard
          in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
          the
          current parties are selling at this time.



          I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
          floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
          way
          they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



          Sandy Pricee has



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Yahoo! Groups Links










          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          _____

          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



          * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          SPONSORED LINKS


          E
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=E+government&w1=E+government&w2=Governm
          ent+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=Gove
          rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
          government

          Government
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+procurement&w1=E+government&
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          Government
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+leasing&w1=E+government&w2=G
          overnment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w
          5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=4An7abdoxVxJCCADxGE
          11Q> leasing


          Government
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+grants+for+women&w1=E+govern
          ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
          r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
          ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

          Government
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+lease&w1=E+government&w2=Gov
          ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
          Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
          w> lease

          Government
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+contract&w1=E+government&w2=
          Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&
          w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=TJmcpxEiYC9WXJ2wWg
          pJYQ> contract



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Derek
          Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
            will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
            people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
            wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
            know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
            The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
            full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

            Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

            Derek



            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
            <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
            >
            > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
            you to join his
            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
            go ahead
            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
            direction and
            > work to change the law."
            >
            > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
            stated that I have some documents and information that support the
            premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
            >
            > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
            different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
            unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
            they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
            least for today...LOL
            >
            > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Sandra Price
            > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
            > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
            Direction
            >
            >
            > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
            legitimately and
            > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
            Michael
            > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
            inside source on
            > this information and will share it with you when the last two
            are in prison.
            > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
            time for
            > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
            signs up with
            > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
            near future.
            > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
            close to
            > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
            believing in the
            > tooth fairy.
            >
            >
            >
            > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
            I do
            > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
            gold fringe
            > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
            stupid silly.
            > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
            Simply
            > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
            prison. I'm
            > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
            tried it in 1970
            > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
            would gather
            > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
            voters. One of the
            > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
            Oliver Ray Price
            > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
            of this
            > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
            >
            >
            >
            > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
            California and the
            > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
            system was fine.
            > HHHH
            >
            > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
            his
            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
            go ahead
            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
            direction and
            > work to change the law.
            >
            >
            >
            > Sandy
          • Derek
            No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
              at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
              college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
              of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
              only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
              or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
              is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
              we barely have time for anything but studies.

              I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
              class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
              registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
              about the other 2 guys.

              I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
              have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
              thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
              could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
              then either.

              But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
              are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
              establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
              lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

              If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
              were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
              liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
              think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

              How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
              you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
              make it worth it?

              Derek



              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
              <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
              >
              > Derek,
              >
              > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
              >
              >
              > Denise
            • Sandra Price
              You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                Sandy



                -----Original Message-----
                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                Derek



                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                >
                > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                you to join his
                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                go ahead
                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                direction and
                > work to change the law."
                >
                > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                >
                > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                least for today...LOL
                >
                > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Sandra Price
                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                Direction
                >
                >
                > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                legitimately and
                > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                Michael
                > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                inside source on
                > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                are in prison.
                > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                time for
                > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                signs up with
                > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                near future.
                > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                close to
                > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                believing in the
                > tooth fairy.
                >
                >
                >
                > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                I do
                > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                gold fringe
                > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                stupid silly.
                > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                Simply
                > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                prison. I'm
                > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                tried it in 1970
                > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                would gather
                > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                voters. One of the
                > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                Oliver Ray Price
                > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                of this
                > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                >
                >
                >
                > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                California and the
                > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                system was fine.
                > HHHH
                >
                > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                his
                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                go ahead
                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                direction and
                > work to change the law.
                >
                >
                >
                > Sandy







                _____

                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                _____



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Denise Bensusan
                Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sandy,

                  Have you been to the FSP site?

                  http://www.freestateproject.org/

                  It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                  Mo offense intended of course....

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sandra Price
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                  You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                  if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                  Sandy



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                  Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                  will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                  people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                  wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                  know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                  The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                  full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                  Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                  Derek



                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                  <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                  you to join his
                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                  go ahead
                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                  direction and
                  > work to change the law."
                  >
                  > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                  stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                  premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                  >
                  > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                  different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                  unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                  they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                  least for today...LOL
                  >
                  > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Sandra Price
                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                  Direction
                  >
                  >
                  > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                  legitimately and
                  > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                  Michael
                  > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                  inside source on
                  > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                  are in prison.
                  > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                  time for
                  > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                  signs up with
                  > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                  near future.
                  > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                  close to
                  > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                  believing in the
                  > tooth fairy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                  I do
                  > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                  gold fringe
                  > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                  stupid silly.
                  > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                  Simply
                  > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                  prison. I'm
                  > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                  tried it in 1970
                  > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                  would gather
                  > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                  voters. One of the
                  > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                  Oliver Ray Price
                  > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                  of this
                  > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                  California and the
                  > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                  system was fine.
                  > HHHH
                  >
                  > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                  his
                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                  go ahead
                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                  direction and
                  > work to change the law.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sandy







                  _____

                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sandra Price
                  Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                    I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                    the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                    am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                    for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                    there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                    I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                    check the FSP later on.



                    Sandy



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                    Sandy,

                    Have you been to the FSP site?

                    http://www.freestateproject.org/

                    It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                    support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                    wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                    Mo offense intended of course....

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sandra Price
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                    if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                    Sandy



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                    Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                    will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                    people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                    wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                    know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                    The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                    full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                    Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                    Derek



                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                    <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                    you to join his
                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                    go ahead
                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                    direction and
                    > work to change the law."
                    >
                    > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                    stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                    premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                    >
                    > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                    different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                    unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                    they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                    least for today...LOL
                    >
                    > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Sandra Price
                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                    Direction
                    >
                    >
                    > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                    legitimately and
                    > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                    Michael
                    > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                    inside source on
                    > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                    are in prison.
                    > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                    time for
                    > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                    signs up with
                    > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                    near future.
                    > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                    close to
                    > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                    believing in the
                    > tooth fairy.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                    I do
                    > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                    gold fringe
                    > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                    stupid silly.
                    > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                    Simply
                    > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                    prison. I'm
                    > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                    tried it in 1970
                    > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                    would gather
                    > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                    voters. One of the
                    > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                    Oliver Ray Price
                    > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                    of this
                    > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                    California and the
                    > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                    system was fine.
                    > HHHH
                    >
                    > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                    his
                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                    go ahead
                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                    direction and
                    > work to change the law.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sandy







                    _____

                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                    * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



                    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                    _____



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links










                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    _____

                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                    * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                    _____



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