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Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction

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  • Denise Bensusan
    Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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      Derek,

      Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


      Denise
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Derek Williams
      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


      I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
      to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
      back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
      money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
      broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
      now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
      believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
      candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
      candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
      how to relate to the general public.

      I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
      had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
      office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
      fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
      one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
      is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
      Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
      majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
      bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
      don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
      good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

      Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
      keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
      elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
      on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
      need more people like these two running for office.

      I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
      such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
      manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
      one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
      arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
      pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
      training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

      Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
      regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
      (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
      their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
      their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
      Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
      salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
      this story:

      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

      Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

      Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
      pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
      that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
      manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

      You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
      want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
      barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
      with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
      trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

      So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
      would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
      FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
      overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
      privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
      there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
      any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
      can and cannot put in their bodies.

      I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
      have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
      benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
      them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
      medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
      such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
      words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
      freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
      and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
      theirs.)

      Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
      contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
      supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
      and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
      without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
      that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
      keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
      reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
      is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
      money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
      too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
      when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
      this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
      weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
      less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
      backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
      created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
      dollar you and I work so hard for.

      Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
      state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
      accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
      so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
      inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
      this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
      do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
      advertisements?

      By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
      County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
      the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
      yet.

      These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
      issues?

      Derek








      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
      > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
      choices of
      > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
      > themselves. To hell with that!
      >
      >
      >
      > Sandy Price
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      Bensusan
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      >
      > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
      much that
      > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Derek
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
      > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
      know
      > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
      end
      > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
      for
      > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
      we
      > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
      good
      > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
      > shenanigans.
      >
      > Derek Williams
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
      <s@r...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
      > >
      > > Sandy Price
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      > Bensusan
      > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
      > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
      > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > Forwarded for your interest:
      > >
      > > Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > by Ron Paul
      > > by Ron Paul
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
      Washington
      > scandal
      > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
      > Koreagate;
      > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
      Dome.
      > Possibly so.
      > > It's certainly serious and significant.
      > >
      > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
      with
      > the mess.
      > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
      > requirements, and
      > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
      assured
      > we mean
      > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
      > Congress. It is
      > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
      leadership
      > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
      > crisis of
      > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
      > well. But it's
      > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
      of
      > the
      > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
      refuse
      > to
      > > properly identify and deal with.
      > >
      > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
      way
      > Congress is
      > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
      attitudes
      > about what
      > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
      won't
      > do much to
      > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
      > addressing the
      > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
      leaders
      > and writing
      > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
      achieve
      > nothing.
      > >
      > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
      > solution to
      > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
      > Perhaps some of
      > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
      others
      > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
      > miserably corrupt
      > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
      state of
      > denial.
      > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
      reveals
      > more and
      > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
      and
      > to what
      > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
      > irresponsible
      > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
      successive
      > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
      > recipients of
      > > the largesse.
      > >
      > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
      > significantly
      > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
      especially
      > those who
      > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
      system
      > that has
      > > evolved over the decades.
      > >
      > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
      scant
      > outcry over
      > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
      > poorer and
      > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
      the
      > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
      > master the
      > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
      ones
      > who truly
      > > benefit.
      > >
      > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
      > dependency on
      > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
      itself
      > as the
      > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
      > leadership are
      > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
      > >
      > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
      > itself to
      > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
      > >
      > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
      our
      > serious
      > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
      founders
      > detested
      > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
      > documents. Today,
      > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
      > life,
      > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
      > miles away.
      > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
      No one
      > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
      > allowed to rule
      > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
      > >
      > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
      notion
      > that a
      > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
      loot
      > confiscated
      > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
      morally
      > and
      > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
      > wonder a
      > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
      developed.
      > Add this to
      > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
      decades
      > due to a
      > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
      intervention,
      > and we
      > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
      learn
      > the tricks
      > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
      > their aides
      > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
      more
      > lucrative
      > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
      > process invites
      > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
      > because of the
      > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
      > generates.
      > >
      > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
      > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
      people
      > truly
      > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
      lobbyists
      > and
      > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
      problem
      > will be
      > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
      worse.
      > >
      > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
      > proposition.
      > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
      identifying
      > its source,
      > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
      > states: "Congress shall
      > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
      the
      > government
      > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
      > >
      > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
      corruption
      > comes from
      > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
      So
      > what do we
      > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
      for
      > guidance
      > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
      addressing
      > bribery,
      > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
      with
      > the
      > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
      > regulations are
      > > unnecessary.
      > >
      > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
      > citizens, and the
      > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
      > that need to
      > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
      direction.
      > Get rid of
      > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
      power
      > of
      > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
      the
      > Abramoff
      > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
      would be
      > a lot
      > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
      > removed.
      > >
      > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
      which is
      > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
      > accomplished
      > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
      character.
      > Members
      > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
      the
      > path to a
      > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
      of
      > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
      the
      > temptation
      > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
      are
      > > acceptable.
      > >
      > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
      interest
      > favoritism
      > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
      at
      > stake.
      > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
      grown
      > accustomed
      > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
      Only
      > when the
      > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
      earmarks
      > in the
      > > budget will not solve the problem.
      > >
      > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
      types
      > are petty
      > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
      > Abramoffs in mere
      > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
      bogged
      > down in
      > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
      > already, but
      > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
      actually
      > will cost
      > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
      done
      > with.
      > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
      unpredictable,
      > because
      > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
      the
      > war had
      > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
      bucks
      > being
      > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
      > corporations.
      > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
      > process. And
      > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
      > Dissenters
      > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
      that a
      > little
      > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
      do
      > much to
      > > solve.
      > >
      > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
      national
      > deficit,
      > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
      > allies, and
      > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
      > destructive
      > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
      entire
      > Middle
      > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
      > >
      > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
      over
      > the last
      > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
      > trillion dollars,
      > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
      Our
      > total
      > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
      > dollars. Most
      > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
      system,
      > and the new
      > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
      pension
      > funds are
      > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
      taxpayers. We
      > are
      > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
      to
      > finance this
      > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
      > debtor nation
      > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
      hardly
      > the way to
      > > secure a sound economy.
      > >
      > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
      > oblivious to the
      > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
      no
      > resistance
      > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
      > nearly 2 ½
      > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
      > demands. The
      > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
      > These
      > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
      > tinkering with
      > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
      > >
      > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
      and
      > members
      > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
      > capture a piece
      > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
      > effectiveness
      > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
      > >
      > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
      > morally and
      > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
      questioned.
      > It is the
      > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
      > poor and
      > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
      the
      > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
      of
      > all the
      > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
      while
      > delaying
      > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
      generation.
      > >
      > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
      > special
      > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
      > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
      the
      > question -
      > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
      > willingness to
      > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
      limited
      > and may
      > > well diminish in the future.
      > >
      > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
      create
      > huge amounts
      > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
      rise
      > and call
      > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
      depreciated
      > dollar don't
      > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
      promote
      > the corrupt
      > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
      > unsophisticated buy in
      > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
      to
      > another, and
      > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
      > central banks
      > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
      > counterfeiting.
      > >
      > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
      from
      > savings, and
      > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
      > counterfeiter has no
      > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
      The
      > incentive
      > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
      whose
      > people are
      > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
      only
      > way we can
      > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
      the
      > foreign
      > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
      > wealth that we
      > > enjoy.
      > >
      > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
      of
      > illegal
      > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
      Mexico
      > and
      > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
      our
      > economy
      > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
      > education and
      > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
      dependent on
      > our
      > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
      of
      > debt becomes
      > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
      United
      > States will
      > > change.
      > >
      > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
      use
      > the money
      > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
      > corporations, and
      > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
      > ones at the
      > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
      > dollars to buy
      > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
      By
      > then their
      > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
      > goes down.
      > >
      > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
      > thirty-four
      > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
      > Industries go
      > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
      > middle class,
      > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
      > hopes to keep
      > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
      > struggle to
      > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
      ability to
      > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
      > problem: it all
      > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
      and
      > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
      the
      > end are
      > > already appearing.
      > >
      > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
      a
      > consequence
      > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
      > dollar price
      > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
      > increase).
      > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
      time-
      > honored and
      > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
      55%.
      > The
      > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
      > soundness of its
      > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
      she
      > depreciated
      > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
      > downfall. That
      > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
      > >
      > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
      not
      > yet on
      > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
      problem is
      > being
      > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
      terms,
      > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
      > We'll make
      > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
      learn
      > how to be
      > > more ethical.
      > >
      > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
      and
      > hides a
      > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
      creation
      > is hard to
      > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
      our
      > economic,
      > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
      > >
      > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
      > (helping the
      > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
      to
      > capitalize
      > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
      > Eventually
      > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
      > borrowing,
      > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
      that
      > > distributes loot by majority vote.
      > >
      > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
      > government
      > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
      > controlled and
      > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
      to
      > accept our
      > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
      question,
      > despite the
      > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
      > >
      > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
      in
      > policy
      > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
      > lot. And
      > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
      > until there is
      > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
      > currency, and a
      > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
      > confidence.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
      over
      > with
      > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
      > government and
      > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
      toward
      > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
      that
      > creates
      > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
      > feed off the
      > > corrupt system.
      > >
      > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
      wealth
      > from the
      > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
      the
      > same.
      > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
      value
      > of each
      > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
      > wealthy in the
      > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
      and
      > more uneasy
      > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
      in
      > context of
      > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
      > >
      > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
      not
      > an
      > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
      will
      > come of
      > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
      in
      > our personal
      > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
      > around the
      > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
      > lobbyists
      > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
      > understand
      > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
      > petition their
      > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
      > pervasive
      > > problem.
      > >
      > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
      > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
      > American people
      > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
      > >
      > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
      > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
      > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
      > > 4.. No more nation building;
      > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
      > > 6.. No more deficits;
      > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
      > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
      > embarrass those
      > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
      current
      > policy;
      > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
      unpatriotic or
      > disloyal
      > > to the country;
      > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
      budget
      > spending
      > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
      > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
      > international NGOs,
      > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
      > corporate
      > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
      > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
      law-
      > abiding
      > > American citizens;
      > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
      liberty
      > by
      > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
      tax
      > violators,
      > > and gun ownership.
      > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
      as
      > an
      > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
      principle
      > of the
      > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
      provide
      > checks and
      > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
      judiciary)
      > that spies
      > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
      wars,
      > and
      > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
      to
      > be a
      > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
      > >
      > > January 19, 2006
      > >
      > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
      > >
      > > Denise
      > >
      > > Denise Bensusan
      > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
      > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
      > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
      > >
      > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
      Constitution
      > of the
      > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
      the
      > United
      > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
      Courts,
      > not to
      > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
      pervert
      > the
      > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      >
      > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
      subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >








      Yahoo! Groups Links









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Derek
      I didn t really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told, however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected over him. I do not think
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        I didn't really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told,
        however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected
        over him.

        I do not think we have a chance of winning the white house any time
        soon, however, I do think that it adds to our legitimacy to run
        somebody for the office each time. I DO, however, think that we can
        very possibly win US House seats in certain areas, and I think that
        Badnarik may just be in such an area to win this time.

        I think that if we run good people like Badnarik, Russo, etc, for US
        house seats in carefully selected areas where they have a good
        chance of winning (like NH or Texas or Nevada), and they do a good
        job and don't embarrass the party when they win, it will help us to
        look more legitimate and then we can run for statewide seats like
        Governor and US Senator and actually be competitive.

        I also think that we need to tone down the "crazier" elements of our
        party's positions and emphasize more the ones that more of the
        general public will accept. The way the democrats and republicans
        got us into this mess was a little at a time. Short of another
        revolutionary war, or state seccession, probably the only peaceful
        way to take it back is by incrementalization also. I would define
        the "crazier" elements as the legalization of drugs, prostitution,
        and polygamy. Most average Americans simply will not accept these
        things. So why even mention them? They should not even be
        mentioned as issues.

        But Gold backed money, abolition of the IRS, and removing barriers
        to entry for small businesses would all be popular causes. And I
        did not know that Badnarik was involved with some of the "tax
        protestor" people. I used to live in rural NC, and we had a lot of
        tax protestors and militia members back there. Most of the tax
        protestors went to PRISON as soon as they were caught and tried.
        And judges do not even let them use their "unconstitutional"
        arguments in court. So it would benefit us to tell our candidates
        to not even use that line, and instead legislate away the IRS in
        congress and the senate. If the gov't still insisted on a national
        tax of some sort, it should be limited to something like a 1%
        national sales tax, but have it capped to only 1% max by a
        constitutional amendment. I think that would be popular.

        Also, it wouldn't hurt us to find some well known celebrity
        candidates to run for office, that wouldn't do something stupid and
        embarrass us. I have read that Clint Eastwood (although he is too
        old), and Woody Harrelson are Libertarians. Pro Wrestler Val Venis
        (real name Sean Morey) is too, although Sean is a Canadian. Jesse
        Ventura, even though he ran as a Reform Party candidate, espouses
        many Libertarian beliefs. I was very happy when Jesse won the
        governorship of Minnesota. That shows that it can be done. And
        even if we never win the white house, if we can win enough of the
        House and senate and state seats, we could still get a lot done and
        send a strong message that people are tired of the police state.

        Derek






        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
        <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
        >
        > Sandy,
        >
        > I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't
        his family threatened the next time around or something and he
        backed away from the race?
        >
        > I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution
        and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support
        this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.
        >
        > I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik)
        in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.
        >
        >
        >
        > ---- Original Message -----
        > From: Sandra Price
        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
        > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
        Direction
        >
        >
        > Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP
        for the many
        > issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian
        movement. Their
        > candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression
        they want the
        > government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael
        Badnarik on
        > several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
        > Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be
        interpreted and
        > amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group
        of men who
        > believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a
        part of the
        > laws of America for many years under the authority of the House
        and Senate.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done
        through the
        > Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be
        dealing with
        > many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to
        be declared
        > criminals.
        >
        >
        >
        > I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the
        accepted rules
        > of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on
        removing
        > every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up
        under the Bush
        > Administration and have shown themselves incapable of
        determining what is
        > legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be
        designed and run
        > by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control
        over our
        > lives and will eliminate our state rights.
        >
        >
        >
        > I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over
        the authority
        > of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S.
        Constitution. I do not
        > want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate
        of
        > Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American
        family has
        > the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this
        choice taken
        > away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a
        choice for the
        > mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.
        >
        > HHHH
        >
        >
        >
        > There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways
        of changing
        > what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find
        wrong and will
        > end up supporting chaos.
        >
        >
        >
        > Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
        elections
        > in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have
        fallen overboard
        > in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through
        the crap the
        > current parties are selling at this time.
        >
        >
        >
        > I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they
        too are
        > floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but
        not the way
        > they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.
        >
        >
        >
        > Sandy Pricee has
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Sandra Price
        Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael Badnarik
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
          honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
          Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
          this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
          Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
          extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
          these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
          Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
          coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
          tooth fairy.



          I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
          recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
          on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
          The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
          breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
          tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
          when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
          enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
          writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
          (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
          petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



          For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
          people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
          HHHH

          You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
          organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
          but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
          work to change the law.



          Sandy



          -----Original Message-----
          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



          Sandy,

          I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
          threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
          race?

          I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
          what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
          try to put my hands on them and forward them.

          I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
          become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



          ---- Original Message -----
          From: Sandra Price
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
          many
          issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
          Their
          candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
          government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
          several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
          Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
          amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
          believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
          the
          laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
          Senate.




          The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
          Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
          many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
          declared
          criminals.



          I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
          rules
          of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
          every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
          Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
          legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
          by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
          lives and will eliminate our state rights.



          I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
          authority
          of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
          want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
          Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
          the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
          taken
          away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
          the
          mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

          HHHH



          There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
          changing
          what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
          will
          end up supporting chaos.



          Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
          in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
          overboard
          in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
          the
          current parties are selling at this time.



          I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
          floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
          they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



          Sandy Pricee has



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          Yahoo! Groups Links










          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          _____

          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



          * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


          * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Denise Bensusan
          Sandy said: You ve been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead but
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
            organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
            but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
            work to change the law."

            Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

            As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

            Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sandra Price
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


            Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
            honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
            Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
            this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
            Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
            extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
            these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
            Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
            coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
            tooth fairy.



            I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
            recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
            on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
            The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
            breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
            tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
            when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
            enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
            writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
            (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
            petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



            For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
            people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
            HHHH

            You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
            organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
            but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
            work to change the law.



            Sandy



            -----Original Message-----
            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



            Sandy,

            I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
            threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
            race?

            I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
            what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
            try to put my hands on them and forward them.

            I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
            become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



            ---- Original Message -----
            From: Sandra Price
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


            Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
            many
            issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
            Their
            candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
            government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
            several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
            Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
            amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
            believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
            the
            laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
            Senate.




            The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
            Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
            many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
            declared
            criminals.



            I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
            rules
            of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
            every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
            Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
            legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
            by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
            lives and will eliminate our state rights.



            I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
            authority
            of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
            want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
            Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
            the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
            taken
            away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
            the
            mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

            HHHH



            There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
            changing
            what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
            will
            end up supporting chaos.



            Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
            in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
            overboard
            in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
            the
            current parties are selling at this time.



            I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
            floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
            they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



            Sandy Pricee has



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links










            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            _____

            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



            * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sandra Price
            I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
              believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
              you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
              will be implicated.



              Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
              pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



              Sandy

              -----Original Message-----
              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



              Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
              his
              organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
              but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
              work to change the law."

              Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
              I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
              is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

              As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
              Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
              them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
              speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

              Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sandra Price
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
              and
              honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
              Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
              on
              this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
              prison.
              Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
              extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
              with
              these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
              Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
              coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
              tooth fairy.



              I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
              recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
              fringe
              on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
              silly.
              The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
              breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
              tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
              1970
              when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
              enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
              the
              writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
              Price
              (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
              petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



              For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
              the
              people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
              fine.
              HHHH

              You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
              organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
              but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
              work to change the law.



              Sandy



              -----Original Message-----
              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



              Sandy,

              I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
              family
              threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
              race?

              I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
              that's
              what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
              try to put my hands on them and forward them.

              I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
              to
              become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



              ---- Original Message -----
              From: Sandra Price
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
              many
              issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
              Their
              candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
              the
              government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
              several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
              Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
              and
              amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
              who
              believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
              the
              laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
              Senate.




              The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
              the
              Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
              with
              many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
              declared
              criminals.



              I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
              rules
              of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
              every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
              Bush
              Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
              is
              legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
              run
              by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
              lives and will eliminate our state rights.



              I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
              authority
              of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
              not
              want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
              Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
              has
              the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
              taken
              away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
              the
              mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

              HHHH



              There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
              changing
              what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
              will
              end up supporting chaos.



              Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
              elections
              in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
              overboard
              in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
              the
              current parties are selling at this time.



              I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
              floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
              way
              they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



              Sandy Pricee has



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              rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
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              w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+wom
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              ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
              r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
              ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

              Government
              <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+lease&w1=E+government&w2=Gov
              ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
              Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
              w> lease

              Government
              <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+contract&w1=E+government&w2=
              Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&
              w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=TJmcpxEiYC9WXJ2wWg
              pJYQ> contract



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            • Denise Bensusan
              Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Good points Sandy!

                Thanks
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sandra Price
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                will be implicated.



                Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                Sandy

                -----Original Message-----
                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                his
                organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                work to change the law."

                Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sandra Price
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                and
                honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                on
                this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                prison.
                Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                with
                these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                tooth fairy.



                I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                fringe
                on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                silly.
                The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                1970
                when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                the
                writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                Price
                (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                the
                people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                fine.
                HHHH

                You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                work to change the law.



                Sandy



                -----Original Message-----
                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                Sandy,

                I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                family
                threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                race?

                I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                that's
                what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                to
                become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                ---- Original Message -----
                From: Sandra Price
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                many
                issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                Their
                candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                the
                government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                and
                amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                who
                believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                the
                laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                Senate.




                The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                the
                Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                with
                many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                declared
                criminals.



                I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                rules
                of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                Bush
                Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                is
                legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                run
                by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                authority
                of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                not
                want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                has
                the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                taken
                away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                the
                mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                HHHH



                There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                changing
                what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                will
                end up supporting chaos.



                Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                elections
                in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                overboard
                in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                the
                current parties are selling at this time.



                I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                way
                they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                Sandy Pricee has



                _____



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


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                E
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=E+government&w1=E+government&w2=Governm
                ent+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=Gove
                rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
                government

                Government
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+procurement&w1=E+government&
                w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+wom
                en&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=x08HqhIkgDQfcWV
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                overnment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w
                5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=4An7abdoxVxJCCADxGE
                11Q> leasing


                Government
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+grants+for+women&w1=E+govern
                ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
                r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
                ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

                Government
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+lease&w1=E+government&w2=Gov
                ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
                Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
                w> lease

                Government
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                Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&
                w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=TJmcpxEiYC9WXJ2wWg
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              • Derek
                Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                  will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                  people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                  wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                  know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                  The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                  full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                  Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                  Derek



                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                  <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                  you to join his
                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                  go ahead
                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                  direction and
                  > work to change the law."
                  >
                  > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                  stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                  premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                  >
                  > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                  different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                  unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                  they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                  least for today...LOL
                  >
                  > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Sandra Price
                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                  Direction
                  >
                  >
                  > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                  legitimately and
                  > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                  Michael
                  > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                  inside source on
                  > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                  are in prison.
                  > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                  time for
                  > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                  signs up with
                  > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                  near future.
                  > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                  close to
                  > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                  believing in the
                  > tooth fairy.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                  I do
                  > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                  gold fringe
                  > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                  stupid silly.
                  > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                  Simply
                  > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                  prison. I'm
                  > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                  tried it in 1970
                  > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                  would gather
                  > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                  voters. One of the
                  > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                  Oliver Ray Price
                  > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                  of this
                  > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                  California and the
                  > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                  system was fine.
                  > HHHH
                  >
                  > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                  his
                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                  go ahead
                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                  direction and
                  > work to change the law.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sandy
                • Derek
                  No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
                    at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
                    college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
                    of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
                    only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
                    or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
                    is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
                    we barely have time for anything but studies.

                    I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
                    class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
                    registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
                    about the other 2 guys.

                    I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
                    have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
                    thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
                    could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
                    then either.

                    But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
                    are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
                    establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
                    lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

                    If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
                    were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
                    liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
                    think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

                    How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
                    you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
                    make it worth it?

                    Derek



                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                    <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Derek,
                    >
                    > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
                    >
                    >
                    > Denise
                  • Sandra Price
                    You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                      if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                      Sandy



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                      will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                      people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                      wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                      know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                      The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                      full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                      Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                      Derek



                      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                      <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                      you to join his
                      > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                      go ahead
                      > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                      direction and
                      > work to change the law."
                      >
                      > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                      stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                      premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                      >
                      > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                      different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                      unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                      they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                      least for today...LOL
                      >
                      > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Sandra Price
                      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                      Direction
                      >
                      >
                      > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                      legitimately and
                      > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                      Michael
                      > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                      inside source on
                      > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                      are in prison.
                      > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                      time for
                      > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                      signs up with
                      > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                      near future.
                      > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                      close to
                      > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                      believing in the
                      > tooth fairy.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                      I do
                      > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                      gold fringe
                      > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                      stupid silly.
                      > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                      Simply
                      > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                      prison. I'm
                      > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                      tried it in 1970
                      > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                      would gather
                      > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                      voters. One of the
                      > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                      Oliver Ray Price
                      > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                      of this
                      > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                      California and the
                      > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                      system was fine.
                      > HHHH
                      >
                      > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                      his
                      > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                      go ahead
                      > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                      direction and
                      > work to change the law.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sandy







                      _____

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                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Denise Bensusan
                      Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sandy,

                        Have you been to the FSP site?

                        http://www.freestateproject.org/

                        It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                        Mo offense intended of course....

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                        if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                        Sandy



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                        Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                        will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                        people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                        wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                        know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                        The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                        full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                        Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                        Derek



                        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                        <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                        you to join his
                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                        go ahead
                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                        direction and
                        > work to change the law."
                        >
                        > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                        stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                        premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                        >
                        > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                        different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                        unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                        they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                        least for today...LOL
                        >
                        > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Sandra Price
                        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                        Direction
                        >
                        >
                        > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                        legitimately and
                        > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                        Michael
                        > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                        inside source on
                        > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                        are in prison.
                        > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                        time for
                        > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                        signs up with
                        > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                        near future.
                        > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                        close to
                        > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                        believing in the
                        > tooth fairy.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                        I do
                        > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                        gold fringe
                        > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                        stupid silly.
                        > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                        Simply
                        > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                        prison. I'm
                        > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                        tried it in 1970
                        > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                        would gather
                        > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                        voters. One of the
                        > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                        Oliver Ray Price
                        > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                        of this
                        > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                        California and the
                        > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                        system was fine.
                        > HHHH
                        >
                        > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                        his
                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                        go ahead
                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                        direction and
                        > work to change the law.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Sandy







                        _____

                        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                        * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                        _____



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                        Yahoo! Groups Links










                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sandra Price
                        Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                          I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                          the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                          am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                          for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                          there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                          I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                          check the FSP later on.



                          Sandy



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                          Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                          Sandy,

                          Have you been to the FSP site?

                          http://www.freestateproject.org/

                          It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                          support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                          wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                          Mo offense intended of course....

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sandra Price
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                          You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                          if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                          Sandy



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                          Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                          will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                          people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                          wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                          know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                          The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                          full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                          Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                          Derek



                          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                          <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                          you to join his
                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                          go ahead
                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                          direction and
                          > work to change the law."
                          >
                          > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                          stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                          premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                          >
                          > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                          different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                          unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                          they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                          least for today...LOL
                          >
                          > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Sandra Price
                          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                          Direction
                          >
                          >
                          > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                          legitimately and
                          > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                          Michael
                          > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                          inside source on
                          > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                          are in prison.
                          > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                          time for
                          > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                          signs up with
                          > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                          near future.
                          > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                          close to
                          > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                          believing in the
                          > tooth fairy.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                          I do
                          > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                          gold fringe
                          > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                          stupid silly.
                          > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                          Simply
                          > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                          prison. I'm
                          > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                          tried it in 1970
                          > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                          would gather
                          > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                          voters. One of the
                          > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                          Oliver Ray Price
                          > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                          of this
                          > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                          California and the
                          > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                          system was fine.
                          > HHHH
                          >
                          > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                          his
                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                          go ahead
                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                          direction and
                          > work to change the law.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sandy







                          _____

                          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                          * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                          <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



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                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          _____

                          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                          * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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