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RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction

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  • Sandra Price
    Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
      issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
      candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
      government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
      several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
      Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
      amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
      believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
      laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




      The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
      Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
      many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
      criminals.



      I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
      of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
      every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
      Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
      legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
      by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
      lives and will eliminate our state rights.



      I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
      of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
      want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
      Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
      the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
      away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
      mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

      HHHH



      There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
      what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
      end up supporting chaos.



      Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
      in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
      in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
      current parties are selling at this time.



      I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
      floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
      they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



      Sandy Pricee has



      _____



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Denise Bensusan
      Derek, Excellent insight on all counts. Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that state dept. of
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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        Derek,

        Excellent insight on all counts.

        Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
        state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
        accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
        so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
        inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
        this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
        do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
        advertisements?

        I'm in Kingman and the Republicans run this county!!!!! Heck they run this state in my opinion. This NOT crossing party lines when making any and all decisions has gotten so ridiculous that this government has lost all legitimacy!!



        Denise
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Derek Williams
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


        I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
        to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
        back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
        money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
        broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
        now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
        believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
        candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
        candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
        how to relate to the general public.

        I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
        had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
        office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
        fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
        one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
        is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
        Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
        majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
        bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
        don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
        good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

        Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
        keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
        elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
        on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
        need more people like these two running for office.

        I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
        such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
        manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
        one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
        arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
        pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
        training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

        Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
        regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
        (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
        their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
        their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
        Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
        salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
        this story:

        http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

        Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

        Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
        pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
        that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
        manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

        You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
        want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
        barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
        with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
        trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

        So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
        would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
        FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
        overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
        privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
        there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
        any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
        can and cannot put in their bodies.

        I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
        have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
        benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
        them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
        medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
        such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
        words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
        freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
        and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
        theirs.)

        Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
        contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
        supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
        and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
        without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
        that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
        keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
        reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
        is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
        money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
        too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
        when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
        this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
        weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
        less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
        backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
        created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
        dollar you and I work so hard for.

        Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
        state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
        accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
        so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
        inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
        this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
        do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
        advertisements?

        By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
        County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
        the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
        yet.

        These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
        issues?

        Derek








        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
        > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
        choices of
        > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
        > themselves. To hell with that!
        >
        >
        >
        > Sandy Price
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
        Bensusan
        > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
        >
        >
        >
        > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
        much that
        > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Derek
        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
        > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
        >
        >
        > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
        know
        > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
        end
        > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
        for
        > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
        we
        > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
        good
        > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
        > shenanigans.
        >
        > Derek Williams
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
        <s@r...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
        > >
        > > Sandy Price
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
        > Bensusan
        > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
        > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
        > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
        > >
        > > Forwarded for your interest:
        > >
        > > Searching for a New Direction
        > >
        > > by Ron Paul
        > > by Ron Paul
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
        > >
        > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
        Washington
        > scandal
        > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
        > Koreagate;
        > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
        Dome.
        > Possibly so.
        > > It's certainly serious and significant.
        > >
        > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
        with
        > the mess.
        > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
        > requirements, and
        > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
        assured
        > we mean
        > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
        > Congress. It is
        > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
        leadership
        > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
        > crisis of
        > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
        > well. But it's
        > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
        of
        > the
        > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
        refuse
        > to
        > > properly identify and deal with.
        > >
        > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
        way
        > Congress is
        > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
        attitudes
        > about what
        > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
        won't
        > do much to
        > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
        > addressing the
        > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
        leaders
        > and writing
        > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
        achieve
        > nothing.
        > >
        > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
        > solution to
        > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
        > Perhaps some of
        > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
        others
        > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
        > miserably corrupt
        > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
        state of
        > denial.
        > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
        reveals
        > more and
        > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
        and
        > to what
        > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
        > irresponsible
        > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
        successive
        > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
        > recipients of
        > > the largesse.
        > >
        > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
        > significantly
        > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
        especially
        > those who
        > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
        system
        > that has
        > > evolved over the decades.
        > >
        > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
        scant
        > outcry over
        > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
        > poorer and
        > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
        the
        > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
        > master the
        > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
        ones
        > who truly
        > > benefit.
        > >
        > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
        > dependency on
        > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
        itself
        > as the
        > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
        > leadership are
        > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
        > >
        > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
        > itself to
        > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
        > >
        > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
        our
        > serious
        > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
        founders
        > detested
        > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
        > documents. Today,
        > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
        > life,
        > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
        > miles away.
        > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
        No one
        > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
        > allowed to rule
        > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
        > >
        > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
        notion
        > that a
        > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
        loot
        > confiscated
        > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
        morally
        > and
        > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
        > wonder a
        > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
        developed.
        > Add this to
        > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
        decades
        > due to a
        > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
        intervention,
        > and we
        > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
        learn
        > the tricks
        > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
        > their aides
        > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
        more
        > lucrative
        > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
        > process invites
        > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
        > because of the
        > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
        > generates.
        > >
        > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
        > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
        people
        > truly
        > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
        lobbyists
        > and
        > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
        problem
        > will be
        > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
        worse.
        > >
        > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
        > proposition.
        > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
        identifying
        > its source,
        > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
        > states: "Congress shall
        > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
        the
        > government
        > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
        > >
        > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
        corruption
        > comes from
        > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
        So
        > what do we
        > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
        for
        > guidance
        > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
        addressing
        > bribery,
        > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
        with
        > the
        > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
        > regulations are
        > > unnecessary.
        > >
        > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
        > citizens, and the
        > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
        > that need to
        > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
        direction.
        > Get rid of
        > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
        power
        > of
        > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
        the
        > Abramoff
        > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
        would be
        > a lot
        > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
        > removed.
        > >
        > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
        which is
        > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
        > accomplished
        > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
        character.
        > Members
        > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
        the
        > path to a
        > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
        of
        > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
        the
        > temptation
        > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
        are
        > > acceptable.
        > >
        > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
        interest
        > favoritism
        > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
        at
        > stake.
        > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
        grown
        > accustomed
        > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
        Only
        > when the
        > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
        earmarks
        > in the
        > > budget will not solve the problem.
        > >
        > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
        types
        > are petty
        > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
        > Abramoffs in mere
        > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
        bogged
        > down in
        > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
        > already, but
        > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
        actually
        > will cost
        > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
        done
        > with.
        > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
        unpredictable,
        > because
        > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
        the
        > war had
        > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
        bucks
        > being
        > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
        > corporations.
        > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
        > process. And
        > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
        > Dissenters
        > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
        that a
        > little
        > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
        do
        > much to
        > > solve.
        > >
        > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
        national
        > deficit,
        > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
        > allies, and
        > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
        > destructive
        > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
        entire
        > Middle
        > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
        > >
        > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
        over
        > the last
        > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
        > trillion dollars,
        > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
        Our
        > total
        > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
        > dollars. Most
        > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
        system,
        > and the new
        > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
        pension
        > funds are
        > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
        taxpayers. We
        > are
        > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
        to
        > finance this
        > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
        > debtor nation
        > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
        hardly
        > the way to
        > > secure a sound economy.
        > >
        > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
        > oblivious to the
        > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
        no
        > resistance
        > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
        > nearly 2 ½
        > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
        > demands. The
        > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
        > These
        > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
        > tinkering with
        > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
        > >
        > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
        and
        > members
        > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
        > capture a piece
        > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
        > effectiveness
        > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
        > >
        > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
        > morally and
        > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
        questioned.
        > It is the
        > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
        > poor and
        > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
        the
        > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
        of
        > all the
        > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
        while
        > delaying
        > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
        generation.
        > >
        > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
        > special
        > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
        > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
        the
        > question -
        > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
        > willingness to
        > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
        limited
        > and may
        > > well diminish in the future.
        > >
        > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
        create
        > huge amounts
        > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
        rise
        > and call
        > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
        depreciated
        > dollar don't
        > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
        promote
        > the corrupt
        > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
        > unsophisticated buy in
        > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
        to
        > another, and
        > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
        > central banks
        > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
        > counterfeiting.
        > >
        > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
        from
        > savings, and
        > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
        > counterfeiter has no
        > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
        The
        > incentive
        > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
        whose
        > people are
        > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
        only
        > way we can
        > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
        the
        > foreign
        > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
        > wealth that we
        > > enjoy.
        > >
        > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
        of
        > illegal
        > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
        Mexico
        > and
        > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
        our
        > economy
        > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
        > education and
        > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
        dependent on
        > our
        > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
        of
        > debt becomes
        > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
        United
        > States will
        > > change.
        > >
        > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
        use
        > the money
        > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
        > corporations, and
        > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
        > ones at the
        > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
        > dollars to buy
        > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
        By
        > then their
        > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
        > goes down.
        > >
        > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
        > thirty-four
        > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
        > Industries go
        > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
        > middle class,
        > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
        > hopes to keep
        > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
        > struggle to
        > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
        ability to
        > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
        > problem: it all
        > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
        and
        > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
        the
        > end are
        > > already appearing.
        > >
        > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
        a
        > consequence
        > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
        > dollar price
        > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
        > increase).
        > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
        time-
        > honored and
        > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
        55%.
        > The
        > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
        > soundness of its
        > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
        she
        > depreciated
        > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
        > downfall. That
        > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
        > >
        > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
        not
        > yet on
        > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
        problem is
        > being
        > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
        terms,
        > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
        > We'll make
        > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
        learn
        > how to be
        > > more ethical.
        > >
        > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
        and
        > hides a
        > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
        creation
        > is hard to
        > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
        our
        > economic,
        > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
        > >
        > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
        > (helping the
        > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
        to
        > capitalize
        > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
        > Eventually
        > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
        > borrowing,
        > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
        that
        > > distributes loot by majority vote.
        > >
        > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
        > government
        > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
        > controlled and
        > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
        to
        > accept our
        > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
        question,
        > despite the
        > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
        > >
        > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
        in
        > policy
        > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
        > lot. And
        > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
        > until there is
        > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
        > currency, and a
        > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
        > confidence.
        > >
        > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
        over
        > with
        > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
        > government and
        > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
        toward
        > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
        that
        > creates
        > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
        > feed off the
        > > corrupt system.
        > >
        > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
        wealth
        > from the
        > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
        the
        > same.
        > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
        value
        > of each
        > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
        > wealthy in the
        > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
        and
        > more uneasy
        > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
        > >
        > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
        in
        > context of
        > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
        > >
        > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
        not
        > an
        > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
        will
        > come of
        > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
        in
        > our personal
        > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
        > around the
        > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
        > lobbyists
        > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
        > understand
        > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
        > petition their
        > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
        > pervasive
        > > problem.
        > >
        > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
        > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
        > American people
        > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
        > >
        > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
        > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
        > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
        > > 4.. No more nation building;
        > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
        > > 6.. No more deficits;
        > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
        > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
        > embarrass those
        > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
        current
        > policy;
        > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
        unpatriotic or
        > disloyal
        > > to the country;
        > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
        budget
        > spending
        > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
        > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
        > international NGOs,
        > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
        > corporate
        > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
        > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
        law-
        > abiding
        > > American citizens;
        > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
        liberty
        > by
        > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
        tax
        > violators,
        > > and gun ownership.
        > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
        as
        > an
        > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
        principle
        > of the
        > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
        provide
        > checks and
        > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
        judiciary)
        > that spies
        > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
        wars,
        > and
        > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
        to
        > be a
        > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
        > >
        > > January 19, 2006
        > >
        > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
        > >
        > > Denise
        > >
        > > Denise Bensusan
        > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
        > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
        > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
        > >
        > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
        Constitution
        > of the
        > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
        the
        > United
        > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
        Courts,
        > not to
        > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
        pervert
        > the
        > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        >
        > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
        >
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
        subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >








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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Denise Bensusan
        Sandy, I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn t his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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          Sandy,

          I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the race?

          I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.

          I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



          ---- Original Message -----
          From: Sandra Price
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
          issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
          candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
          government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
          several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
          Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
          amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
          believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
          laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




          The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
          Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
          many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
          criminals.



          I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
          of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
          every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
          Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
          legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
          by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
          lives and will eliminate our state rights.



          I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
          of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
          want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
          Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
          the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
          away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
          mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

          HHHH



          There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
          what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
          end up supporting chaos.



          Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
          in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
          in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
          current parties are selling at this time.



          I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
          floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
          they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



          Sandy Pricee has



          _____



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • Denise Bensusan
          Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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            Derek,

            Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


            Denise
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Derek Williams
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


            I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
            to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
            back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
            money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
            broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
            now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
            believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
            candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
            candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
            how to relate to the general public.

            I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
            had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
            office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
            fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
            one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
            is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
            Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
            majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
            bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
            don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
            good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

            Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
            keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
            elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
            on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
            need more people like these two running for office.

            I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
            such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
            manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
            one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
            arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
            pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
            training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

            Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
            regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
            (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
            their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
            their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
            Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
            salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
            this story:

            http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

            Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

            Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
            pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
            that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
            manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

            You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
            want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
            barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
            with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
            trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

            So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
            would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
            FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
            overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
            privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
            there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
            any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
            can and cannot put in their bodies.

            I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
            have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
            benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
            them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
            medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
            such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
            words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
            freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
            and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
            theirs.)

            Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
            contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
            supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
            and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
            without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
            that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
            keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
            reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
            is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
            money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
            too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
            when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
            this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
            weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
            less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
            backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
            created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
            dollar you and I work so hard for.

            Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
            state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
            accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
            so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
            inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
            this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
            do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
            advertisements?

            By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
            County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
            the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
            yet.

            These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
            issues?

            Derek








            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
            > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
            choices of
            > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
            > themselves. To hell with that!
            >
            >
            >
            > Sandy Price
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
            Bensusan
            > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
            > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
            >
            >
            >
            > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
            much that
            > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Derek
            > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
            > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
            >
            >
            > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
            know
            > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
            end
            > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
            for
            > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
            we
            > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
            good
            > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
            > shenanigans.
            >
            > Derek Williams
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
            <s@r...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
            > >
            > > Sandy Price
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
            > Bensusan
            > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
            > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
            > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
            > >
            > > Forwarded for your interest:
            > >
            > > Searching for a New Direction
            > >
            > > by Ron Paul
            > > by Ron Paul
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
            > >
            > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
            Washington
            > scandal
            > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
            > Koreagate;
            > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
            Dome.
            > Possibly so.
            > > It's certainly serious and significant.
            > >
            > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
            with
            > the mess.
            > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
            > requirements, and
            > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
            assured
            > we mean
            > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
            > Congress. It is
            > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
            leadership
            > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
            > crisis of
            > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
            > well. But it's
            > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
            of
            > the
            > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
            refuse
            > to
            > > properly identify and deal with.
            > >
            > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
            way
            > Congress is
            > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
            attitudes
            > about what
            > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
            won't
            > do much to
            > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
            > addressing the
            > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
            leaders
            > and writing
            > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
            achieve
            > nothing.
            > >
            > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
            > solution to
            > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
            > Perhaps some of
            > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
            others
            > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
            > miserably corrupt
            > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
            state of
            > denial.
            > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
            reveals
            > more and
            > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
            and
            > to what
            > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
            > irresponsible
            > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
            successive
            > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
            > recipients of
            > > the largesse.
            > >
            > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
            > significantly
            > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
            especially
            > those who
            > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
            system
            > that has
            > > evolved over the decades.
            > >
            > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
            scant
            > outcry over
            > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
            > poorer and
            > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
            the
            > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
            > master the
            > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
            ones
            > who truly
            > > benefit.
            > >
            > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
            > dependency on
            > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
            itself
            > as the
            > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
            > leadership are
            > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
            > >
            > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
            > itself to
            > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
            > >
            > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
            our
            > serious
            > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
            founders
            > detested
            > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
            > documents. Today,
            > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
            > life,
            > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
            > miles away.
            > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
            No one
            > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
            > allowed to rule
            > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
            > >
            > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
            notion
            > that a
            > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
            loot
            > confiscated
            > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
            morally
            > and
            > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
            > wonder a
            > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
            developed.
            > Add this to
            > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
            decades
            > due to a
            > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
            intervention,
            > and we
            > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
            learn
            > the tricks
            > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
            > their aides
            > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
            more
            > lucrative
            > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
            > process invites
            > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
            > because of the
            > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
            > generates.
            > >
            > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
            > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
            people
            > truly
            > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
            lobbyists
            > and
            > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
            problem
            > will be
            > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
            worse.
            > >
            > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
            > proposition.
            > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
            identifying
            > its source,
            > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
            > states: "Congress shall
            > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
            the
            > government
            > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
            > >
            > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
            corruption
            > comes from
            > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
            So
            > what do we
            > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
            for
            > guidance
            > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
            addressing
            > bribery,
            > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
            with
            > the
            > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
            > regulations are
            > > unnecessary.
            > >
            > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
            > citizens, and the
            > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
            > that need to
            > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
            direction.
            > Get rid of
            > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
            power
            > of
            > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
            the
            > Abramoff
            > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
            would be
            > a lot
            > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
            > removed.
            > >
            > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
            which is
            > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
            > accomplished
            > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
            character.
            > Members
            > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
            the
            > path to a
            > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
            of
            > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
            the
            > temptation
            > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
            are
            > > acceptable.
            > >
            > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
            interest
            > favoritism
            > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
            at
            > stake.
            > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
            grown
            > accustomed
            > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
            Only
            > when the
            > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
            earmarks
            > in the
            > > budget will not solve the problem.
            > >
            > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
            types
            > are petty
            > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
            > Abramoffs in mere
            > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
            bogged
            > down in
            > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
            > already, but
            > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
            actually
            > will cost
            > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
            done
            > with.
            > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
            unpredictable,
            > because
            > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
            the
            > war had
            > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
            bucks
            > being
            > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
            > corporations.
            > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
            > process. And
            > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
            > Dissenters
            > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
            that a
            > little
            > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
            do
            > much to
            > > solve.
            > >
            > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
            national
            > deficit,
            > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
            > allies, and
            > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
            > destructive
            > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
            entire
            > Middle
            > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
            > >
            > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
            over
            > the last
            > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
            > trillion dollars,
            > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
            Our
            > total
            > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
            > dollars. Most
            > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
            system,
            > and the new
            > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
            pension
            > funds are
            > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
            taxpayers. We
            > are
            > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
            to
            > finance this
            > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
            > debtor nation
            > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
            hardly
            > the way to
            > > secure a sound economy.
            > >
            > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
            > oblivious to the
            > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
            no
            > resistance
            > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
            > nearly 2 ½
            > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
            > demands. The
            > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
            > These
            > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
            > tinkering with
            > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
            > >
            > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
            and
            > members
            > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
            > capture a piece
            > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
            > effectiveness
            > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
            > >
            > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
            > morally and
            > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
            questioned.
            > It is the
            > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
            > poor and
            > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
            the
            > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
            of
            > all the
            > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
            while
            > delaying
            > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
            generation.
            > >
            > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
            > special
            > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
            > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
            the
            > question -
            > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
            > willingness to
            > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
            limited
            > and may
            > > well diminish in the future.
            > >
            > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
            create
            > huge amounts
            > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
            rise
            > and call
            > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
            depreciated
            > dollar don't
            > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
            promote
            > the corrupt
            > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
            > unsophisticated buy in
            > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
            to
            > another, and
            > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
            > central banks
            > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
            > counterfeiting.
            > >
            > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
            from
            > savings, and
            > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
            > counterfeiter has no
            > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
            The
            > incentive
            > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
            whose
            > people are
            > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
            only
            > way we can
            > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
            the
            > foreign
            > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
            > wealth that we
            > > enjoy.
            > >
            > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
            of
            > illegal
            > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
            Mexico
            > and
            > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
            our
            > economy
            > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
            > education and
            > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
            dependent on
            > our
            > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
            of
            > debt becomes
            > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
            United
            > States will
            > > change.
            > >
            > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
            use
            > the money
            > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
            > corporations, and
            > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
            > ones at the
            > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
            > dollars to buy
            > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
            By
            > then their
            > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
            > goes down.
            > >
            > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
            > thirty-four
            > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
            > Industries go
            > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
            > middle class,
            > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
            > hopes to keep
            > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
            > struggle to
            > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
            ability to
            > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
            > problem: it all
            > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
            and
            > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
            the
            > end are
            > > already appearing.
            > >
            > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
            a
            > consequence
            > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
            > dollar price
            > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
            > increase).
            > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
            time-
            > honored and
            > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
            55%.
            > The
            > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
            > soundness of its
            > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
            she
            > depreciated
            > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
            > downfall. That
            > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
            > >
            > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
            not
            > yet on
            > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
            problem is
            > being
            > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
            terms,
            > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
            > We'll make
            > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
            learn
            > how to be
            > > more ethical.
            > >
            > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
            and
            > hides a
            > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
            creation
            > is hard to
            > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
            our
            > economic,
            > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
            > >
            > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
            > (helping the
            > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
            to
            > capitalize
            > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
            > Eventually
            > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
            > borrowing,
            > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
            that
            > > distributes loot by majority vote.
            > >
            > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
            > government
            > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
            > controlled and
            > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
            to
            > accept our
            > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
            question,
            > despite the
            > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
            > >
            > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
            in
            > policy
            > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
            > lot. And
            > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
            > until there is
            > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
            > currency, and a
            > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
            > confidence.
            > >
            > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
            over
            > with
            > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
            > government and
            > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
            toward
            > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
            that
            > creates
            > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
            > feed off the
            > > corrupt system.
            > >
            > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
            wealth
            > from the
            > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
            the
            > same.
            > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
            value
            > of each
            > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
            > wealthy in the
            > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
            and
            > more uneasy
            > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
            > >
            > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
            in
            > context of
            > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
            > >
            > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
            not
            > an
            > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
            will
            > come of
            > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
            in
            > our personal
            > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
            > around the
            > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
            > lobbyists
            > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
            > understand
            > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
            > petition their
            > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
            > pervasive
            > > problem.
            > >
            > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
            > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
            > American people
            > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
            > >
            > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
            > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
            > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
            > > 4.. No more nation building;
            > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
            > > 6.. No more deficits;
            > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
            > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
            > embarrass those
            > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
            current
            > policy;
            > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
            unpatriotic or
            > disloyal
            > > to the country;
            > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
            budget
            > spending
            > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
            > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
            > international NGOs,
            > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
            > corporate
            > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
            > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
            law-
            > abiding
            > > American citizens;
            > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
            liberty
            > by
            > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
            tax
            > violators,
            > > and gun ownership.
            > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
            as
            > an
            > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
            principle
            > of the
            > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
            provide
            > checks and
            > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
            judiciary)
            > that spies
            > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
            wars,
            > and
            > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
            to
            > be a
            > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
            > >
            > > January 19, 2006
            > >
            > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
            > >
            > > Denise
            > >
            > > Denise Bensusan
            > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
            > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
            > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
            > >
            > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
            Constitution
            > of the
            > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
            the
            > United
            > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
            Courts,
            > not to
            > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
            pervert
            > the
            > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            >
            > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
            >
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
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            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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            >
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            >








            Yahoo! Groups Links









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Derek
            I didn t really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told, however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected over him. I do not think
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I didn't really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told,
              however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected
              over him.

              I do not think we have a chance of winning the white house any time
              soon, however, I do think that it adds to our legitimacy to run
              somebody for the office each time. I DO, however, think that we can
              very possibly win US House seats in certain areas, and I think that
              Badnarik may just be in such an area to win this time.

              I think that if we run good people like Badnarik, Russo, etc, for US
              house seats in carefully selected areas where they have a good
              chance of winning (like NH or Texas or Nevada), and they do a good
              job and don't embarrass the party when they win, it will help us to
              look more legitimate and then we can run for statewide seats like
              Governor and US Senator and actually be competitive.

              I also think that we need to tone down the "crazier" elements of our
              party's positions and emphasize more the ones that more of the
              general public will accept. The way the democrats and republicans
              got us into this mess was a little at a time. Short of another
              revolutionary war, or state seccession, probably the only peaceful
              way to take it back is by incrementalization also. I would define
              the "crazier" elements as the legalization of drugs, prostitution,
              and polygamy. Most average Americans simply will not accept these
              things. So why even mention them? They should not even be
              mentioned as issues.

              But Gold backed money, abolition of the IRS, and removing barriers
              to entry for small businesses would all be popular causes. And I
              did not know that Badnarik was involved with some of the "tax
              protestor" people. I used to live in rural NC, and we had a lot of
              tax protestors and militia members back there. Most of the tax
              protestors went to PRISON as soon as they were caught and tried.
              And judges do not even let them use their "unconstitutional"
              arguments in court. So it would benefit us to tell our candidates
              to not even use that line, and instead legislate away the IRS in
              congress and the senate. If the gov't still insisted on a national
              tax of some sort, it should be limited to something like a 1%
              national sales tax, but have it capped to only 1% max by a
              constitutional amendment. I think that would be popular.

              Also, it wouldn't hurt us to find some well known celebrity
              candidates to run for office, that wouldn't do something stupid and
              embarrass us. I have read that Clint Eastwood (although he is too
              old), and Woody Harrelson are Libertarians. Pro Wrestler Val Venis
              (real name Sean Morey) is too, although Sean is a Canadian. Jesse
              Ventura, even though he ran as a Reform Party candidate, espouses
              many Libertarian beliefs. I was very happy when Jesse won the
              governorship of Minnesota. That shows that it can be done. And
              even if we never win the white house, if we can win enough of the
              House and senate and state seats, we could still get a lot done and
              send a strong message that people are tired of the police state.

              Derek






              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
              <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
              >
              > Sandy,
              >
              > I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't
              his family threatened the next time around or something and he
              backed away from the race?
              >
              > I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution
              and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support
              this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.
              >
              > I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik)
              in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---- Original Message -----
              > From: Sandra Price
              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
              > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
              Direction
              >
              >
              > Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP
              for the many
              > issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian
              movement. Their
              > candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression
              they want the
              > government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael
              Badnarik on
              > several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
              > Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be
              interpreted and
              > amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group
              of men who
              > believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a
              part of the
              > laws of America for many years under the authority of the House
              and Senate.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done
              through the
              > Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be
              dealing with
              > many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to
              be declared
              > criminals.
              >
              >
              >
              > I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the
              accepted rules
              > of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on
              removing
              > every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up
              under the Bush
              > Administration and have shown themselves incapable of
              determining what is
              > legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be
              designed and run
              > by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control
              over our
              > lives and will eliminate our state rights.
              >
              >
              >
              > I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over
              the authority
              > of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S.
              Constitution. I do not
              > want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate
              of
              > Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American
              family has
              > the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this
              choice taken
              > away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a
              choice for the
              > mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.
              >
              > HHHH
              >
              >
              >
              > There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways
              of changing
              > what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find
              wrong and will
              > end up supporting chaos.
              >
              >
              >
              > Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
              elections
              > in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have
              fallen overboard
              > in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through
              the crap the
              > current parties are selling at this time.
              >
              >
              >
              > I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they
              too are
              > floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but
              not the way
              > they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.
              >
              >
              >
              > Sandy Pricee has
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Sandra Price
              Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael Badnarik
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                tooth fairy.



                I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                HHHH

                You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                work to change the law.



                Sandy



                -----Original Message-----
                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                Sandy,

                I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                race?

                I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                ---- Original Message -----
                From: Sandra Price
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                many
                issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                Their
                candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                the
                laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                Senate.




                The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                declared
                criminals.



                I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                rules
                of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                authority
                of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                taken
                away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                the
                mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                HHHH



                There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                changing
                what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                will
                end up supporting chaos.



                Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                overboard
                in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                the
                current parties are selling at this time.



                I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                Sandy Pricee has



                _____



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Yahoo! Groups Links










                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                _____

                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Denise Bensusan
                Sandy said: You ve been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead but
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                  organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                  but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                  work to change the law."

                  Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                  As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                  Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sandra Price
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                  Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                  honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                  Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                  this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                  Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                  extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                  these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                  Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                  coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                  tooth fairy.



                  I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                  recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                  on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                  The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                  breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                  tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                  when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                  enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                  writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                  (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                  petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                  For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                  people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                  HHHH

                  You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                  organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                  but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                  work to change the law.



                  Sandy



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                  Sandy,

                  I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                  threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                  race?

                  I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                  what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                  try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                  I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                  become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                  ---- Original Message -----
                  From: Sandra Price
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                  Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                  many
                  issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                  Their
                  candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                  government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                  several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                  Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                  amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                  believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                  the
                  laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                  Senate.




                  The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                  Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                  many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                  declared
                  criminals.



                  I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                  rules
                  of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                  every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                  Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                  legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                  by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                  lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                  I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                  authority
                  of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                  want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                  Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                  the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                  taken
                  away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                  the
                  mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                  HHHH



                  There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                  changing
                  what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                  will
                  end up supporting chaos.



                  Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                  in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                  overboard
                  in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                  the
                  current parties are selling at this time.



                  I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                  floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                  they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                  Sandy Pricee has



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  _____

                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sandra Price
                  I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                    believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                    you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                    will be implicated.



                    Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                    pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                    Sandy

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                    Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                    his
                    organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                    but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                    work to change the law."

                    Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                    I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                    is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                    As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                    Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                    them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                    speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                    Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sandra Price
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                    and
                    honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                    Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                    on
                    this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                    prison.
                    Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                    extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                    with
                    these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                    Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                    coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                    tooth fairy.



                    I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                    recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                    fringe
                    on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                    silly.
                    The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                    breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                    tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                    1970
                    when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                    enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                    the
                    writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                    Price
                    (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                    petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                    For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                    the
                    people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                    fine.
                    HHHH

                    You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                    organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                    but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                    work to change the law.



                    Sandy



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                    Sandy,

                    I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                    family
                    threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                    race?

                    I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                    that's
                    what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                    try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                    I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                    to
                    become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                    ---- Original Message -----
                    From: Sandra Price
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                    many
                    issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                    Their
                    candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                    the
                    government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                    several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                    Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                    and
                    amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                    who
                    believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                    the
                    laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                    Senate.




                    The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                    the
                    Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                    with
                    many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                    declared
                    criminals.



                    I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                    rules
                    of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                    every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                    Bush
                    Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                    is
                    legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                    run
                    by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                    lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                    I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                    authority
                    of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                    not
                    want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                    Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                    has
                    the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                    taken
                    away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                    the
                    mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                    HHHH



                    There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                    changing
                    what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                    will
                    end up supporting chaos.



                    Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                    elections
                    in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                    overboard
                    in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                    the
                    current parties are selling at this time.



                    I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                    floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                    way
                    they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                    Sandy Pricee has



                    _____



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links










                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    _____

                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                    * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



                    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Denise Bensusan
                    Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Good points Sandy!

                      Thanks
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                      believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                      you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                      will be implicated.



                      Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                      pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                      Sandy

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                      his
                      organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                      but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                      work to change the law."

                      Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                      I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                      is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                      As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                      Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                      them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                      speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                      Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                      and
                      honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                      Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                      on
                      this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                      prison.
                      Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                      extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                      with
                      these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                      Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                      coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                      tooth fairy.



                      I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                      recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                      fringe
                      on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                      silly.
                      The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                      breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                      tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                      1970
                      when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                      enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                      the
                      writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                      Price
                      (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                      petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                      For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                      the
                      people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                      fine.
                      HHHH

                      You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                      organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                      but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                      work to change the law.



                      Sandy



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Sandy,

                      I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                      family
                      threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                      race?

                      I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                      that's
                      what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                      try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                      I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                      to
                      become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                      many
                      issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                      Their
                      candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                      the
                      government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                      several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                      Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                      and
                      amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                      who
                      believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                      the
                      laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                      Senate.




                      The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                      the
                      Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                      with
                      many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                      declared
                      criminals.



                      I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                      rules
                      of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                      every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                      Bush
                      Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                      is
                      legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                      run
                      by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                      lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                      I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                      authority
                      of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                      not
                      want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                      Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                      has
                      the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                      taken
                      away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                      the
                      mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                      HHHH



                      There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                      changing
                      what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                      will
                      end up supporting chaos.



                      Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                      elections
                      in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                      overboard
                      in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                      the
                      current parties are selling at this time.



                      I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                      floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                      way
                      they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                      Sandy Pricee has



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                    • Derek
                      Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                        will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                        people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                        wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                        know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                        The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                        full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                        Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                        Derek



                        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                        <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                        you to join his
                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                        go ahead
                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                        direction and
                        > work to change the law."
                        >
                        > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                        stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                        premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                        >
                        > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                        different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                        unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                        they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                        least for today...LOL
                        >
                        > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Sandra Price
                        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                        Direction
                        >
                        >
                        > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                        legitimately and
                        > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                        Michael
                        > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                        inside source on
                        > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                        are in prison.
                        > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                        time for
                        > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                        signs up with
                        > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                        near future.
                        > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                        close to
                        > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                        believing in the
                        > tooth fairy.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                        I do
                        > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                        gold fringe
                        > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                        stupid silly.
                        > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                        Simply
                        > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                        prison. I'm
                        > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                        tried it in 1970
                        > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                        would gather
                        > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                        voters. One of the
                        > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                        Oliver Ray Price
                        > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                        of this
                        > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                        California and the
                        > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                        system was fine.
                        > HHHH
                        >
                        > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                        his
                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                        go ahead
                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                        direction and
                        > work to change the law.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Sandy
                      • Derek
                        No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
                          at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
                          college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
                          of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
                          only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
                          or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
                          is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
                          we barely have time for anything but studies.

                          I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
                          class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
                          registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
                          about the other 2 guys.

                          I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
                          have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
                          thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
                          could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
                          then either.

                          But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
                          are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
                          establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
                          lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

                          If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
                          were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
                          liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
                          think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

                          How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
                          you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
                          make it worth it?

                          Derek



                          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                          <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Derek,
                          >
                          > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
                          >
                          >
                          > Denise
                        • Sandra Price
                          You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                            if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                            Sandy



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                            Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                            will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                            people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                            wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                            know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                            The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                            full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                            Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                            Derek



                            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                            <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                            you to join his
                            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                            go ahead
                            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                            direction and
                            > work to change the law."
                            >
                            > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                            stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                            premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                            >
                            > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                            different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                            unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                            they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                            least for today...LOL
                            >
                            > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Sandra Price
                            > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                            Direction
                            >
                            >
                            > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                            legitimately and
                            > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                            Michael
                            > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                            inside source on
                            > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                            are in prison.
                            > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                            time for
                            > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                            signs up with
                            > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                            near future.
                            > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                            close to
                            > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                            believing in the
                            > tooth fairy.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                            I do
                            > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                            gold fringe
                            > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                            stupid silly.
                            > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                            Simply
                            > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                            prison. I'm
                            > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                            tried it in 1970
                            > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                            would gather
                            > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                            voters. One of the
                            > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                            Oliver Ray Price
                            > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                            of this
                            > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                            California and the
                            > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                            system was fine.
                            > HHHH
                            >
                            > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                            his
                            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                            go ahead
                            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                            direction and
                            > work to change the law.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Sandy







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                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


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                          • Denise Bensusan
                            Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Sandy,

                              Have you been to the FSP site?

                              http://www.freestateproject.org/

                              It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                              Mo offense intended of course....

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Sandra Price
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                              You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                              if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                              Sandy



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                              Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                              will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                              people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                              wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                              know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                              The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                              full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                              Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                              Derek



                              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                              <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                              you to join his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law."
                              >
                              > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                              stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                              premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                              >
                              > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                              different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                              unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                              they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                              least for today...LOL
                              >
                              > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Sandra Price
                              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                              Direction
                              >
                              >
                              > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                              legitimately and
                              > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                              Michael
                              > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                              inside source on
                              > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                              are in prison.
                              > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                              time for
                              > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                              signs up with
                              > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                              near future.
                              > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                              close to
                              > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                              believing in the
                              > tooth fairy.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                              I do
                              > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                              gold fringe
                              > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                              stupid silly.
                              > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                              Simply
                              > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                              prison. I'm
                              > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                              tried it in 1970
                              > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                              would gather
                              > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                              voters. One of the
                              > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                              Oliver Ray Price
                              > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                              of this
                              > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                              California and the
                              > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                              system was fine.
                              > HHHH
                              >
                              > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                              his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sandy







                              _____

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                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sandra Price
                              Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                                I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                                the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                                am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                                for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                                there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                                I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                                check the FSP later on.



                                Sandy



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                Sandy,

                                Have you been to the FSP site?

                                http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                                support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                                wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                Mo offense intended of course....

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sandra Price
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                Sandy



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                Derek



                                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                you to join his
                                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                go ahead
                                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                direction and
                                > work to change the law."
                                >
                                > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                >
                                > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                least for today...LOL
                                >
                                > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Sandra Price
                                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                Direction
                                >
                                >
                                > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                legitimately and
                                > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                Michael
                                > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                inside source on
                                > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                are in prison.
                                > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                time for
                                > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                signs up with
                                > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                near future.
                                > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                close to
                                > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                believing in the
                                > tooth fairy.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                I do
                                > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                gold fringe
                                > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                stupid silly.
                                > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                Simply
                                > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                prison. I'm
                                > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                tried it in 1970
                                > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                would gather
                                > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                voters. One of the
                                > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                Oliver Ray Price
                                > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                of this
                                > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                California and the
                                > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                system was fine.
                                > HHHH
                                >
                                > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                his
                                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                go ahead
                                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                direction and
                                > work to change the law.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Sandy







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