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Re: Searching for a New Direction

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  • Derek Williams
    I don t know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me back and tell me if I
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
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      I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
      to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
      back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
      money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
      broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
      now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
      believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
      candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
      candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
      how to relate to the general public.

      I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
      had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
      office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
      fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
      one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
      is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
      Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
      majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
      bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
      don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
      good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

      Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
      keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
      elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
      on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
      need more people like these two running for office.

      I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
      such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
      manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
      one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
      arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
      pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
      training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

      Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
      regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
      (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
      their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
      their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
      Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
      salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
      this story:

      http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

      Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

      Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
      pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
      that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
      manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

      You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
      want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
      barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
      with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
      trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

      So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
      would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
      FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
      overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
      privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
      there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
      any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
      can and cannot put in their bodies.

      I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
      have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
      benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
      them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
      medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
      such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
      words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
      freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
      and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
      theirs.)

      Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
      contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
      supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
      and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
      without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
      that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
      keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
      reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
      is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
      money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
      too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
      when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
      this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
      weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
      less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
      backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
      created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
      dollar you and I work so hard for.

      Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
      state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
      accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
      so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
      inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
      this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
      do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
      advertisements?

      By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
      County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
      the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
      yet.

      These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
      issues?

      Derek








      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
      > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
      choices of
      > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
      > themselves. To hell with that!
      >
      >
      >
      > Sandy Price
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      Bensusan
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      >
      > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
      much that
      > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Derek
      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
      > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
      >
      >
      > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
      know
      > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
      end
      > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
      for
      > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
      we
      > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
      good
      > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
      > shenanigans.
      >
      > Derek Williams
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
      <s@r...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
      > >
      > > Sandy Price
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      > Bensusan
      > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
      > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
      > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > Forwarded for your interest:
      > >
      > > Searching for a New Direction
      > >
      > > by Ron Paul
      > > by Ron Paul
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
      Washington
      > scandal
      > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
      > Koreagate;
      > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
      Dome.
      > Possibly so.
      > > It's certainly serious and significant.
      > >
      > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
      with
      > the mess.
      > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
      > requirements, and
      > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
      assured
      > we mean
      > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
      > Congress. It is
      > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
      leadership
      > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
      > crisis of
      > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
      > well. But it's
      > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
      of
      > the
      > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
      refuse
      > to
      > > properly identify and deal with.
      > >
      > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
      way
      > Congress is
      > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
      attitudes
      > about what
      > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
      won't
      > do much to
      > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
      > addressing the
      > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
      leaders
      > and writing
      > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
      achieve
      > nothing.
      > >
      > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
      > solution to
      > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
      > Perhaps some of
      > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
      others
      > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
      > miserably corrupt
      > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
      state of
      > denial.
      > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
      reveals
      > more and
      > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
      and
      > to what
      > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
      > irresponsible
      > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
      successive
      > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
      > recipients of
      > > the largesse.
      > >
      > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
      > significantly
      > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
      especially
      > those who
      > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
      system
      > that has
      > > evolved over the decades.
      > >
      > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
      scant
      > outcry over
      > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
      > poorer and
      > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
      the
      > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
      > master the
      > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
      ones
      > who truly
      > > benefit.
      > >
      > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
      > dependency on
      > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
      itself
      > as the
      > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
      > leadership are
      > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
      > >
      > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
      > itself to
      > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
      > >
      > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
      our
      > serious
      > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
      founders
      > detested
      > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
      > documents. Today,
      > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
      > life,
      > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
      > miles away.
      > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
      No one
      > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
      > allowed to rule
      > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
      > >
      > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
      notion
      > that a
      > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
      loot
      > confiscated
      > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
      morally
      > and
      > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
      > wonder a
      > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
      developed.
      > Add this to
      > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
      decades
      > due to a
      > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
      intervention,
      > and we
      > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
      learn
      > the tricks
      > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
      > their aides
      > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
      more
      > lucrative
      > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
      > process invites
      > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
      > because of the
      > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
      > generates.
      > >
      > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
      > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
      people
      > truly
      > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
      lobbyists
      > and
      > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
      problem
      > will be
      > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
      worse.
      > >
      > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
      > proposition.
      > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
      identifying
      > its source,
      > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
      > states: "Congress shall
      > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
      the
      > government
      > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
      > >
      > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
      corruption
      > comes from
      > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
      So
      > what do we
      > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
      for
      > guidance
      > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
      addressing
      > bribery,
      > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
      with
      > the
      > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
      > regulations are
      > > unnecessary.
      > >
      > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
      > citizens, and the
      > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
      > that need to
      > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
      direction.
      > Get rid of
      > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
      power
      > of
      > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
      the
      > Abramoff
      > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
      would be
      > a lot
      > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
      > removed.
      > >
      > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
      which is
      > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
      > accomplished
      > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
      character.
      > Members
      > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
      the
      > path to a
      > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
      of
      > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
      the
      > temptation
      > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
      are
      > > acceptable.
      > >
      > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
      interest
      > favoritism
      > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
      at
      > stake.
      > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
      grown
      > accustomed
      > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
      Only
      > when the
      > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
      earmarks
      > in the
      > > budget will not solve the problem.
      > >
      > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
      types
      > are petty
      > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
      > Abramoffs in mere
      > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
      bogged
      > down in
      > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
      > already, but
      > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
      actually
      > will cost
      > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
      done
      > with.
      > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
      unpredictable,
      > because
      > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
      the
      > war had
      > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
      bucks
      > being
      > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
      > corporations.
      > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
      > process. And
      > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
      > Dissenters
      > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
      that a
      > little
      > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
      do
      > much to
      > > solve.
      > >
      > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
      national
      > deficit,
      > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
      > allies, and
      > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
      > destructive
      > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
      entire
      > Middle
      > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
      > >
      > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
      over
      > the last
      > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
      > trillion dollars,
      > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
      Our
      > total
      > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
      > dollars. Most
      > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
      system,
      > and the new
      > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
      pension
      > funds are
      > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
      taxpayers. We
      > are
      > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
      to
      > finance this
      > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
      > debtor nation
      > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
      hardly
      > the way to
      > > secure a sound economy.
      > >
      > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
      > oblivious to the
      > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
      no
      > resistance
      > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
      > nearly 2 ½
      > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
      > demands. The
      > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
      > These
      > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
      > tinkering with
      > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
      > >
      > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
      and
      > members
      > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
      > capture a piece
      > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
      > effectiveness
      > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
      > >
      > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
      > morally and
      > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
      questioned.
      > It is the
      > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
      > poor and
      > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
      the
      > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
      of
      > all the
      > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
      while
      > delaying
      > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
      generation.
      > >
      > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
      > special
      > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
      > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
      the
      > question -
      > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
      > willingness to
      > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
      limited
      > and may
      > > well diminish in the future.
      > >
      > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
      create
      > huge amounts
      > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
      rise
      > and call
      > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
      depreciated
      > dollar don't
      > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
      promote
      > the corrupt
      > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
      > unsophisticated buy in
      > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
      to
      > another, and
      > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
      > central banks
      > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
      > counterfeiting.
      > >
      > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
      from
      > savings, and
      > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
      > counterfeiter has no
      > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
      The
      > incentive
      > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
      whose
      > people are
      > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
      only
      > way we can
      > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
      the
      > foreign
      > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
      > wealth that we
      > > enjoy.
      > >
      > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
      of
      > illegal
      > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
      Mexico
      > and
      > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
      our
      > economy
      > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
      > education and
      > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
      dependent on
      > our
      > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
      of
      > debt becomes
      > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
      United
      > States will
      > > change.
      > >
      > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
      use
      > the money
      > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
      > corporations, and
      > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
      > ones at the
      > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
      > dollars to buy
      > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
      By
      > then their
      > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
      > goes down.
      > >
      > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
      > thirty-four
      > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
      > Industries go
      > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
      > middle class,
      > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
      > hopes to keep
      > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
      > struggle to
      > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
      ability to
      > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
      > problem: it all
      > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
      and
      > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
      the
      > end are
      > > already appearing.
      > >
      > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
      a
      > consequence
      > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
      > dollar price
      > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
      > increase).
      > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
      time-
      > honored and
      > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
      55%.
      > The
      > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
      > soundness of its
      > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
      she
      > depreciated
      > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
      > downfall. That
      > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
      > >
      > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
      not
      > yet on
      > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
      problem is
      > being
      > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
      terms,
      > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
      > We'll make
      > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
      learn
      > how to be
      > > more ethical.
      > >
      > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
      and
      > hides a
      > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
      creation
      > is hard to
      > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
      our
      > economic,
      > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
      > >
      > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
      > (helping the
      > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
      to
      > capitalize
      > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
      > Eventually
      > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
      > borrowing,
      > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
      that
      > > distributes loot by majority vote.
      > >
      > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
      > government
      > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
      > controlled and
      > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
      to
      > accept our
      > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
      question,
      > despite the
      > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
      > >
      > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
      in
      > policy
      > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
      > lot. And
      > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
      > until there is
      > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
      > currency, and a
      > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
      > confidence.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
      over
      > with
      > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
      > government and
      > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
      toward
      > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
      that
      > creates
      > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
      > feed off the
      > > corrupt system.
      > >
      > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
      wealth
      > from the
      > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
      the
      > same.
      > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
      value
      > of each
      > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
      > wealthy in the
      > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
      and
      > more uneasy
      > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
      > >
      > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
      in
      > context of
      > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
      > >
      > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
      not
      > an
      > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
      will
      > come of
      > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
      in
      > our personal
      > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
      > around the
      > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
      > lobbyists
      > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
      > understand
      > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
      > petition their
      > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
      > pervasive
      > > problem.
      > >
      > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
      > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
      > American people
      > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
      > >
      > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
      > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
      > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
      > > 4.. No more nation building;
      > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
      > > 6.. No more deficits;
      > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
      > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
      > embarrass those
      > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
      current
      > policy;
      > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
      unpatriotic or
      > disloyal
      > > to the country;
      > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
      budget
      > spending
      > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
      > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
      > international NGOs,
      > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
      > corporate
      > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
      > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
      law-
      > abiding
      > > American citizens;
      > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
      liberty
      > by
      > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
      tax
      > violators,
      > > and gun ownership.
      > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
      as
      > an
      > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
      principle
      > of the
      > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
      provide
      > checks and
      > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
      judiciary)
      > that spies
      > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
      wars,
      > and
      > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
      to
      > be a
      > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
      > >
      > > January 19, 2006
      > >
      > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
      > >
      > > Denise
      > >
      > > Denise Bensusan
      > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
      > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
      > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
      > >
      > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
      Constitution
      > of the
      > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
      the
      > United
      > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
      Courts,
      > not to
      > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
      pervert
      > the
      > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      >
      > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
      subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Sandra Price
      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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        Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
        issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
        candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
        government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
        several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
        Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
        amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
        believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
        laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




        The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
        Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
        many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
        criminals.



        I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
        of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
        every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
        Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
        legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
        by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
        lives and will eliminate our state rights.



        I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
        of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
        want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
        Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
        the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
        away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
        mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

        HHHH



        There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
        what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
        end up supporting chaos.



        Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
        in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
        in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
        current parties are selling at this time.



        I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
        floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
        they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



        Sandy Pricee has



        _____



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Denise Bensusan
        Derek, Excellent insight on all counts. Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that state dept. of
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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          Derek,

          Excellent insight on all counts.

          Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
          state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
          accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
          so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
          inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
          this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
          do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
          advertisements?

          I'm in Kingman and the Republicans run this county!!!!! Heck they run this state in my opinion. This NOT crossing party lines when making any and all decisions has gotten so ridiculous that this government has lost all legitimacy!!



          Denise
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Derek Williams
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
          Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
          to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
          back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
          money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
          broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
          now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
          believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
          candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
          candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
          how to relate to the general public.

          I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
          had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
          office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
          fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
          one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
          is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
          Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
          majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
          bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
          don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
          good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

          Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
          keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
          elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
          on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
          need more people like these two running for office.

          I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
          such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
          manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
          one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
          arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
          pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
          training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

          Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
          regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
          (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
          their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
          their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
          Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
          salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
          this story:

          http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

          Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

          Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
          pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
          that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
          manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

          You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
          want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
          barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
          with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
          trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

          So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
          would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
          FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
          overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
          privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
          there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
          any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
          can and cannot put in their bodies.

          I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
          have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
          benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
          them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
          medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
          such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
          words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
          freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
          and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
          theirs.)

          Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
          contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
          supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
          and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
          without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
          that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
          keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
          reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
          is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
          money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
          too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
          when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
          this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
          weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
          less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
          backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
          created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
          dollar you and I work so hard for.

          Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
          state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
          accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
          so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
          inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
          this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
          do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
          advertisements?

          By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
          County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
          the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
          yet.

          These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
          issues?

          Derek








          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
          > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
          choices of
          > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
          > themselves. To hell with that!
          >
          >
          >
          > Sandy Price
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
          Bensusan
          > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
          >
          >
          >
          > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
          much that
          > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Derek
          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
          > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
          >
          >
          > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
          know
          > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
          end
          > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
          for
          > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
          we
          > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
          good
          > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
          > shenanigans.
          >
          > Derek Williams
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
          <s@r...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
          > >
          > > Sandy Price
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
          > Bensusan
          > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
          > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
          > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
          > >
          > > Forwarded for your interest:
          > >
          > > Searching for a New Direction
          > >
          > > by Ron Paul
          > > by Ron Paul
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
          > >
          > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
          Washington
          > scandal
          > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
          > Koreagate;
          > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
          Dome.
          > Possibly so.
          > > It's certainly serious and significant.
          > >
          > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
          with
          > the mess.
          > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
          > requirements, and
          > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
          assured
          > we mean
          > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
          > Congress. It is
          > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
          leadership
          > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
          > crisis of
          > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
          > well. But it's
          > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
          of
          > the
          > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
          refuse
          > to
          > > properly identify and deal with.
          > >
          > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
          way
          > Congress is
          > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
          attitudes
          > about what
          > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
          won't
          > do much to
          > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
          > addressing the
          > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
          leaders
          > and writing
          > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
          achieve
          > nothing.
          > >
          > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
          > solution to
          > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
          > Perhaps some of
          > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
          others
          > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
          > miserably corrupt
          > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
          state of
          > denial.
          > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
          reveals
          > more and
          > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
          and
          > to what
          > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
          > irresponsible
          > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
          successive
          > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
          > recipients of
          > > the largesse.
          > >
          > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
          > significantly
          > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
          especially
          > those who
          > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
          system
          > that has
          > > evolved over the decades.
          > >
          > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
          scant
          > outcry over
          > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
          > poorer and
          > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
          the
          > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
          > master the
          > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
          ones
          > who truly
          > > benefit.
          > >
          > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
          > dependency on
          > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
          itself
          > as the
          > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
          > leadership are
          > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
          > >
          > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
          > itself to
          > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
          > >
          > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
          our
          > serious
          > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
          founders
          > detested
          > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
          > documents. Today,
          > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
          > life,
          > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
          > miles away.
          > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
          No one
          > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
          > allowed to rule
          > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
          > >
          > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
          notion
          > that a
          > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
          loot
          > confiscated
          > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
          morally
          > and
          > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
          > wonder a
          > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
          developed.
          > Add this to
          > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
          decades
          > due to a
          > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
          intervention,
          > and we
          > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
          learn
          > the tricks
          > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
          > their aides
          > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
          more
          > lucrative
          > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
          > process invites
          > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
          > because of the
          > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
          > generates.
          > >
          > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
          > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
          people
          > truly
          > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
          lobbyists
          > and
          > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
          problem
          > will be
          > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
          worse.
          > >
          > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
          > proposition.
          > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
          identifying
          > its source,
          > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
          > states: "Congress shall
          > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
          the
          > government
          > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
          > >
          > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
          corruption
          > comes from
          > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
          So
          > what do we
          > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
          for
          > guidance
          > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
          addressing
          > bribery,
          > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
          with
          > the
          > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
          > regulations are
          > > unnecessary.
          > >
          > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
          > citizens, and the
          > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
          > that need to
          > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
          direction.
          > Get rid of
          > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
          power
          > of
          > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
          the
          > Abramoff
          > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
          would be
          > a lot
          > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
          > removed.
          > >
          > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
          which is
          > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
          > accomplished
          > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
          character.
          > Members
          > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
          the
          > path to a
          > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
          of
          > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
          the
          > temptation
          > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
          are
          > > acceptable.
          > >
          > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
          interest
          > favoritism
          > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
          at
          > stake.
          > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
          grown
          > accustomed
          > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
          Only
          > when the
          > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
          earmarks
          > in the
          > > budget will not solve the problem.
          > >
          > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
          types
          > are petty
          > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
          > Abramoffs in mere
          > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
          bogged
          > down in
          > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
          > already, but
          > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
          actually
          > will cost
          > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
          done
          > with.
          > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
          unpredictable,
          > because
          > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
          the
          > war had
          > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
          bucks
          > being
          > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
          > corporations.
          > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
          > process. And
          > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
          > Dissenters
          > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
          that a
          > little
          > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
          do
          > much to
          > > solve.
          > >
          > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
          national
          > deficit,
          > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
          > allies, and
          > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
          > destructive
          > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
          entire
          > Middle
          > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
          > >
          > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
          over
          > the last
          > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
          > trillion dollars,
          > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
          Our
          > total
          > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
          > dollars. Most
          > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
          system,
          > and the new
          > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
          pension
          > funds are
          > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
          taxpayers. We
          > are
          > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
          to
          > finance this
          > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
          > debtor nation
          > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
          hardly
          > the way to
          > > secure a sound economy.
          > >
          > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
          > oblivious to the
          > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
          no
          > resistance
          > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
          > nearly 2 ½
          > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
          > demands. The
          > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
          > These
          > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
          > tinkering with
          > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
          > >
          > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
          and
          > members
          > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
          > capture a piece
          > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
          > effectiveness
          > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
          > >
          > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
          > morally and
          > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
          questioned.
          > It is the
          > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
          > poor and
          > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
          the
          > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
          of
          > all the
          > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
          while
          > delaying
          > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
          generation.
          > >
          > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
          > special
          > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
          > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
          the
          > question -
          > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
          > willingness to
          > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
          limited
          > and may
          > > well diminish in the future.
          > >
          > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
          create
          > huge amounts
          > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
          rise
          > and call
          > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
          depreciated
          > dollar don't
          > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
          promote
          > the corrupt
          > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
          > unsophisticated buy in
          > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
          to
          > another, and
          > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
          > central banks
          > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
          > counterfeiting.
          > >
          > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
          from
          > savings, and
          > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
          > counterfeiter has no
          > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
          The
          > incentive
          > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
          whose
          > people are
          > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
          only
          > way we can
          > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
          the
          > foreign
          > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
          > wealth that we
          > > enjoy.
          > >
          > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
          of
          > illegal
          > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
          Mexico
          > and
          > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
          our
          > economy
          > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
          > education and
          > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
          dependent on
          > our
          > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
          of
          > debt becomes
          > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
          United
          > States will
          > > change.
          > >
          > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
          use
          > the money
          > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
          > corporations, and
          > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
          > ones at the
          > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
          > dollars to buy
          > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
          By
          > then their
          > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
          > goes down.
          > >
          > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
          > thirty-four
          > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
          > Industries go
          > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
          > middle class,
          > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
          > hopes to keep
          > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
          > struggle to
          > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
          ability to
          > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
          > problem: it all
          > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
          and
          > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
          the
          > end are
          > > already appearing.
          > >
          > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
          a
          > consequence
          > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
          > dollar price
          > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
          > increase).
          > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
          time-
          > honored and
          > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
          55%.
          > The
          > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
          > soundness of its
          > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
          she
          > depreciated
          > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
          > downfall. That
          > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
          > >
          > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
          not
          > yet on
          > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
          problem is
          > being
          > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
          terms,
          > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
          > We'll make
          > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
          learn
          > how to be
          > > more ethical.
          > >
          > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
          and
          > hides a
          > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
          creation
          > is hard to
          > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
          our
          > economic,
          > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
          > >
          > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
          > (helping the
          > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
          to
          > capitalize
          > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
          > Eventually
          > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
          > borrowing,
          > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
          that
          > > distributes loot by majority vote.
          > >
          > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
          > government
          > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
          > controlled and
          > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
          to
          > accept our
          > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
          question,
          > despite the
          > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
          > >
          > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
          in
          > policy
          > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
          > lot. And
          > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
          > until there is
          > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
          > currency, and a
          > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
          > confidence.
          > >
          > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
          over
          > with
          > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
          > government and
          > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
          toward
          > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
          that
          > creates
          > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
          > feed off the
          > > corrupt system.
          > >
          > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
          wealth
          > from the
          > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
          the
          > same.
          > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
          value
          > of each
          > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
          > wealthy in the
          > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
          and
          > more uneasy
          > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
          > >
          > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
          in
          > context of
          > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
          > >
          > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
          not
          > an
          > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
          will
          > come of
          > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
          in
          > our personal
          > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
          > around the
          > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
          > lobbyists
          > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
          > understand
          > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
          > petition their
          > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
          > pervasive
          > > problem.
          > >
          > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
          > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
          > American people
          > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
          > >
          > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
          > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
          > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
          > > 4.. No more nation building;
          > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
          > > 6.. No more deficits;
          > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
          > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
          > embarrass those
          > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
          current
          > policy;
          > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
          unpatriotic or
          > disloyal
          > > to the country;
          > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
          budget
          > spending
          > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
          > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
          > international NGOs,
          > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
          > corporate
          > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
          > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
          law-
          > abiding
          > > American citizens;
          > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
          liberty
          > by
          > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
          tax
          > violators,
          > > and gun ownership.
          > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
          as
          > an
          > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
          principle
          > of the
          > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
          provide
          > checks and
          > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
          judiciary)
          > that spies
          > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
          wars,
          > and
          > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
          to
          > be a
          > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
          > >
          > > January 19, 2006
          > >
          > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
          > >
          > > Denise
          > >
          > > Denise Bensusan
          > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
          > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
          > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
          > >
          > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
          Constitution
          > of the
          > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
          the
          > United
          > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
          Courts,
          > not to
          > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
          pervert
          > the
          > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          >
          > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
          >
          >
          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
          subject=Unsubscribe>
          >
          >
          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >








          Yahoo! Groups Links









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Denise Bensusan
          Sandy, I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn t his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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            Sandy,

            I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the race?

            I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.

            I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



            ---- Original Message -----
            From: Sandra Price
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


            Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
            issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
            candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
            government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
            several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
            Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
            amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
            believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
            laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




            The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
            Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
            many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
            criminals.



            I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
            of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
            every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
            Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
            legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
            by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
            lives and will eliminate our state rights.



            I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
            of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
            want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
            Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
            the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
            away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
            mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

            HHHH



            There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
            what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
            end up supporting chaos.



            Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
            in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
            in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
            current parties are selling at this time.



            I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
            floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
            they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



            Sandy Pricee has



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links










            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Denise Bensusan
            Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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              Derek,

              Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


              Denise
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Derek Williams
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
              to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
              back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
              money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
              broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
              now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
              believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
              candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
              candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
              how to relate to the general public.

              I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
              had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
              office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
              fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
              one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
              is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
              Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
              majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
              bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
              don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
              good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

              Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
              keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
              elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
              on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
              need more people like these two running for office.

              I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
              such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
              manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
              one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
              arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
              pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
              training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

              Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
              regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
              (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
              their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
              their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
              Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
              salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
              this story:

              http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

              Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

              Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
              pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
              that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
              manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

              You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
              want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
              barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
              with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
              trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

              So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
              would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
              FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
              overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
              privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
              there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
              any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
              can and cannot put in their bodies.

              I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
              have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
              benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
              them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
              medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
              such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
              words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
              freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
              and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
              theirs.)

              Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
              contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
              supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
              and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
              without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
              that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
              keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
              reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
              is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
              money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
              too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
              when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
              this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
              weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
              less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
              backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
              created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
              dollar you and I work so hard for.

              Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
              state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
              accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
              so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
              inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
              this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
              do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
              advertisements?

              By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
              County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
              the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
              yet.

              These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
              issues?

              Derek








              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
              > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
              choices of
              > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
              > themselves. To hell with that!
              >
              >
              >
              > Sandy Price
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
              Bensusan
              > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
              >
              >
              >
              > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
              much that
              > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Derek
              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
              > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
              >
              >
              > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
              know
              > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
              end
              > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
              for
              > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
              we
              > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
              good
              > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
              > shenanigans.
              >
              > Derek Williams
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
              <s@r...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
              > >
              > > Sandy Price
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
              > Bensusan
              > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
              > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
              > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
              > >
              > > Forwarded for your interest:
              > >
              > > Searching for a New Direction
              > >
              > > by Ron Paul
              > > by Ron Paul
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
              > >
              > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
              Washington
              > scandal
              > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
              > Koreagate;
              > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
              Dome.
              > Possibly so.
              > > It's certainly serious and significant.
              > >
              > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
              with
              > the mess.
              > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
              > requirements, and
              > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
              assured
              > we mean
              > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
              > Congress. It is
              > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
              leadership
              > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
              > crisis of
              > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
              > well. But it's
              > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
              of
              > the
              > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
              refuse
              > to
              > > properly identify and deal with.
              > >
              > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
              way
              > Congress is
              > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
              attitudes
              > about what
              > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
              won't
              > do much to
              > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
              > addressing the
              > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
              leaders
              > and writing
              > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
              achieve
              > nothing.
              > >
              > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
              > solution to
              > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
              > Perhaps some of
              > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
              others
              > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
              > miserably corrupt
              > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
              state of
              > denial.
              > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
              reveals
              > more and
              > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
              and
              > to what
              > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
              > irresponsible
              > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
              successive
              > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
              > recipients of
              > > the largesse.
              > >
              > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
              > significantly
              > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
              especially
              > those who
              > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
              system
              > that has
              > > evolved over the decades.
              > >
              > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
              scant
              > outcry over
              > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
              > poorer and
              > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
              the
              > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
              > master the
              > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
              ones
              > who truly
              > > benefit.
              > >
              > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
              > dependency on
              > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
              itself
              > as the
              > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
              > leadership are
              > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
              > >
              > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
              > itself to
              > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
              > >
              > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
              our
              > serious
              > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
              founders
              > detested
              > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
              > documents. Today,
              > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
              > life,
              > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
              > miles away.
              > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
              No one
              > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
              > allowed to rule
              > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
              > >
              > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
              notion
              > that a
              > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
              loot
              > confiscated
              > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
              morally
              > and
              > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
              > wonder a
              > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
              developed.
              > Add this to
              > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
              decades
              > due to a
              > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
              intervention,
              > and we
              > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
              learn
              > the tricks
              > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
              > their aides
              > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
              more
              > lucrative
              > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
              > process invites
              > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
              > because of the
              > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
              > generates.
              > >
              > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
              > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
              people
              > truly
              > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
              lobbyists
              > and
              > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
              problem
              > will be
              > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
              worse.
              > >
              > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
              > proposition.
              > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
              identifying
              > its source,
              > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
              > states: "Congress shall
              > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
              the
              > government
              > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
              > >
              > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
              corruption
              > comes from
              > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
              So
              > what do we
              > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
              for
              > guidance
              > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
              addressing
              > bribery,
              > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
              with
              > the
              > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
              > regulations are
              > > unnecessary.
              > >
              > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
              > citizens, and the
              > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
              > that need to
              > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
              direction.
              > Get rid of
              > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
              power
              > of
              > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
              the
              > Abramoff
              > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
              would be
              > a lot
              > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
              > removed.
              > >
              > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
              which is
              > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
              > accomplished
              > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
              character.
              > Members
              > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
              the
              > path to a
              > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
              of
              > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
              the
              > temptation
              > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
              are
              > > acceptable.
              > >
              > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
              interest
              > favoritism
              > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
              at
              > stake.
              > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
              grown
              > accustomed
              > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
              Only
              > when the
              > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
              earmarks
              > in the
              > > budget will not solve the problem.
              > >
              > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
              types
              > are petty
              > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
              > Abramoffs in mere
              > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
              bogged
              > down in
              > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
              > already, but
              > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
              actually
              > will cost
              > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
              done
              > with.
              > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
              unpredictable,
              > because
              > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
              the
              > war had
              > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
              bucks
              > being
              > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
              > corporations.
              > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
              > process. And
              > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
              > Dissenters
              > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
              that a
              > little
              > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
              do
              > much to
              > > solve.
              > >
              > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
              national
              > deficit,
              > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
              > allies, and
              > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
              > destructive
              > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
              entire
              > Middle
              > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
              > >
              > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
              over
              > the last
              > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
              > trillion dollars,
              > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
              Our
              > total
              > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
              > dollars. Most
              > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
              system,
              > and the new
              > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
              pension
              > funds are
              > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
              taxpayers. We
              > are
              > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
              to
              > finance this
              > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
              > debtor nation
              > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
              hardly
              > the way to
              > > secure a sound economy.
              > >
              > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
              > oblivious to the
              > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
              no
              > resistance
              > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
              > nearly 2 ½
              > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
              > demands. The
              > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
              > These
              > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
              > tinkering with
              > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
              > >
              > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
              and
              > members
              > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
              > capture a piece
              > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
              > effectiveness
              > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
              > >
              > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
              > morally and
              > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
              questioned.
              > It is the
              > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
              > poor and
              > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
              the
              > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
              of
              > all the
              > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
              while
              > delaying
              > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
              generation.
              > >
              > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
              > special
              > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
              > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
              the
              > question -
              > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
              > willingness to
              > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
              limited
              > and may
              > > well diminish in the future.
              > >
              > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
              create
              > huge amounts
              > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
              rise
              > and call
              > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
              depreciated
              > dollar don't
              > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
              promote
              > the corrupt
              > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
              > unsophisticated buy in
              > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
              to
              > another, and
              > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
              > central banks
              > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
              > counterfeiting.
              > >
              > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
              from
              > savings, and
              > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
              > counterfeiter has no
              > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
              The
              > incentive
              > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
              whose
              > people are
              > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
              only
              > way we can
              > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
              the
              > foreign
              > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
              > wealth that we
              > > enjoy.
              > >
              > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
              of
              > illegal
              > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
              Mexico
              > and
              > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
              our
              > economy
              > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
              > education and
              > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
              dependent on
              > our
              > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
              of
              > debt becomes
              > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
              United
              > States will
              > > change.
              > >
              > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
              use
              > the money
              > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
              > corporations, and
              > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
              > ones at the
              > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
              > dollars to buy
              > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
              By
              > then their
              > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
              > goes down.
              > >
              > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
              > thirty-four
              > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
              > Industries go
              > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
              > middle class,
              > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
              > hopes to keep
              > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
              > struggle to
              > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
              ability to
              > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
              > problem: it all
              > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
              and
              > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
              the
              > end are
              > > already appearing.
              > >
              > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
              a
              > consequence
              > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
              > dollar price
              > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
              > increase).
              > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
              time-
              > honored and
              > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
              55%.
              > The
              > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
              > soundness of its
              > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
              she
              > depreciated
              > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
              > downfall. That
              > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
              > >
              > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
              not
              > yet on
              > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
              problem is
              > being
              > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
              terms,
              > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
              > We'll make
              > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
              learn
              > how to be
              > > more ethical.
              > >
              > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
              and
              > hides a
              > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
              creation
              > is hard to
              > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
              our
              > economic,
              > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
              > >
              > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
              > (helping the
              > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
              to
              > capitalize
              > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
              > Eventually
              > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
              > borrowing,
              > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
              that
              > > distributes loot by majority vote.
              > >
              > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
              > government
              > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
              > controlled and
              > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
              to
              > accept our
              > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
              question,
              > despite the
              > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
              > >
              > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
              in
              > policy
              > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
              > lot. And
              > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
              > until there is
              > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
              > currency, and a
              > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
              > confidence.
              > >
              > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
              over
              > with
              > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
              > government and
              > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
              toward
              > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
              that
              > creates
              > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
              > feed off the
              > > corrupt system.
              > >
              > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
              wealth
              > from the
              > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
              the
              > same.
              > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
              value
              > of each
              > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
              > wealthy in the
              > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
              and
              > more uneasy
              > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
              > >
              > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
              in
              > context of
              > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
              > >
              > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
              not
              > an
              > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
              will
              > come of
              > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
              in
              > our personal
              > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
              > around the
              > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
              > lobbyists
              > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
              > understand
              > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
              > petition their
              > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
              > pervasive
              > > problem.
              > >
              > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
              > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
              > American people
              > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
              > >
              > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
              > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
              > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
              > > 4.. No more nation building;
              > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
              > > 6.. No more deficits;
              > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
              > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
              > embarrass those
              > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
              current
              > policy;
              > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
              unpatriotic or
              > disloyal
              > > to the country;
              > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
              budget
              > spending
              > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
              > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
              > international NGOs,
              > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
              > corporate
              > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
              > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
              law-
              > abiding
              > > American citizens;
              > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
              liberty
              > by
              > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
              tax
              > violators,
              > > and gun ownership.
              > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
              as
              > an
              > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
              principle
              > of the
              > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
              provide
              > checks and
              > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
              judiciary)
              > that spies
              > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
              wars,
              > and
              > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
              to
              > be a
              > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
              > >
              > > January 19, 2006
              > >
              > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
              > >
              > > Denise
              > >
              > > Denise Bensusan
              > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
              > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
              > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
              > >
              > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
              Constitution
              > of the
              > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
              the
              > United
              > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
              Courts,
              > not to
              > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
              pervert
              > the
              > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
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              >
              >
              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            • Derek
              I didn t really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told, however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected over him. I do not think
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I didn't really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told,
                however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected
                over him.

                I do not think we have a chance of winning the white house any time
                soon, however, I do think that it adds to our legitimacy to run
                somebody for the office each time. I DO, however, think that we can
                very possibly win US House seats in certain areas, and I think that
                Badnarik may just be in such an area to win this time.

                I think that if we run good people like Badnarik, Russo, etc, for US
                house seats in carefully selected areas where they have a good
                chance of winning (like NH or Texas or Nevada), and they do a good
                job and don't embarrass the party when they win, it will help us to
                look more legitimate and then we can run for statewide seats like
                Governor and US Senator and actually be competitive.

                I also think that we need to tone down the "crazier" elements of our
                party's positions and emphasize more the ones that more of the
                general public will accept. The way the democrats and republicans
                got us into this mess was a little at a time. Short of another
                revolutionary war, or state seccession, probably the only peaceful
                way to take it back is by incrementalization also. I would define
                the "crazier" elements as the legalization of drugs, prostitution,
                and polygamy. Most average Americans simply will not accept these
                things. So why even mention them? They should not even be
                mentioned as issues.

                But Gold backed money, abolition of the IRS, and removing barriers
                to entry for small businesses would all be popular causes. And I
                did not know that Badnarik was involved with some of the "tax
                protestor" people. I used to live in rural NC, and we had a lot of
                tax protestors and militia members back there. Most of the tax
                protestors went to PRISON as soon as they were caught and tried.
                And judges do not even let them use their "unconstitutional"
                arguments in court. So it would benefit us to tell our candidates
                to not even use that line, and instead legislate away the IRS in
                congress and the senate. If the gov't still insisted on a national
                tax of some sort, it should be limited to something like a 1%
                national sales tax, but have it capped to only 1% max by a
                constitutional amendment. I think that would be popular.

                Also, it wouldn't hurt us to find some well known celebrity
                candidates to run for office, that wouldn't do something stupid and
                embarrass us. I have read that Clint Eastwood (although he is too
                old), and Woody Harrelson are Libertarians. Pro Wrestler Val Venis
                (real name Sean Morey) is too, although Sean is a Canadian. Jesse
                Ventura, even though he ran as a Reform Party candidate, espouses
                many Libertarian beliefs. I was very happy when Jesse won the
                governorship of Minnesota. That shows that it can be done. And
                even if we never win the white house, if we can win enough of the
                House and senate and state seats, we could still get a lot done and
                send a strong message that people are tired of the police state.

                Derek






                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                >
                > Sandy,
                >
                > I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't
                his family threatened the next time around or something and he
                backed away from the race?
                >
                > I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution
                and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support
                this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.
                >
                > I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik)
                in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.
                >
                >
                >
                > ---- Original Message -----
                > From: Sandra Price
                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                Direction
                >
                >
                > Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP
                for the many
                > issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian
                movement. Their
                > candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression
                they want the
                > government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael
                Badnarik on
                > several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                > Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be
                interpreted and
                > amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group
                of men who
                > believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a
                part of the
                > laws of America for many years under the authority of the House
                and Senate.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done
                through the
                > Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be
                dealing with
                > many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to
                be declared
                > criminals.
                >
                >
                >
                > I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the
                accepted rules
                > of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on
                removing
                > every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up
                under the Bush
                > Administration and have shown themselves incapable of
                determining what is
                > legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be
                designed and run
                > by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control
                over our
                > lives and will eliminate our state rights.
                >
                >
                >
                > I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over
                the authority
                > of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S.
                Constitution. I do not
                > want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate
                of
                > Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American
                family has
                > the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this
                choice taken
                > away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a
                choice for the
                > mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.
                >
                > HHHH
                >
                >
                >
                > There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways
                of changing
                > what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find
                wrong and will
                > end up supporting chaos.
                >
                >
                >
                > Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                elections
                > in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have
                fallen overboard
                > in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through
                the crap the
                > current parties are selling at this time.
                >
                >
                >
                > I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they
                too are
                > floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but
                not the way
                > they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.
                >
                >
                >
                > Sandy Pricee has
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Sandra Price
                Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael Badnarik
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                  honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                  Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                  this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                  Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                  extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                  these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                  Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                  coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                  tooth fairy.



                  I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                  recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                  on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                  The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                  breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                  tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                  when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                  enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                  writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                  (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                  petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                  For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                  people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                  HHHH

                  You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                  organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                  but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                  work to change the law.



                  Sandy



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                  Sandy,

                  I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                  threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                  race?

                  I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                  what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                  try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                  I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                  become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                  ---- Original Message -----
                  From: Sandra Price
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                  Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                  many
                  issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                  Their
                  candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                  government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                  several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                  Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                  amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                  believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                  the
                  laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                  Senate.




                  The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                  Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                  many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                  declared
                  criminals.



                  I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                  rules
                  of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                  every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                  Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                  legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                  by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                  lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                  I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                  authority
                  of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                  want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                  Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                  the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                  taken
                  away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                  the
                  mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                  HHHH



                  There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                  changing
                  what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                  will
                  end up supporting chaos.



                  Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                  in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                  overboard
                  in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                  the
                  current parties are selling at this time.



                  I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                  floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                  they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                  Sandy Pricee has



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  _____

                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Denise Bensusan
                  Sandy said: You ve been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead but
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                    organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                    but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                    work to change the law."

                    Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                    As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                    Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sandra Price
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                    honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                    Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                    this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                    Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                    extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                    these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                    Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                    coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                    tooth fairy.



                    I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                    recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                    on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                    The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                    breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                    tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                    when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                    enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                    writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                    (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                    petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                    For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                    people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                    HHHH

                    You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                    organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                    but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                    work to change the law.



                    Sandy



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                    Sandy,

                    I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                    threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                    race?

                    I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                    what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                    try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                    I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                    become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                    ---- Original Message -----
                    From: Sandra Price
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                    many
                    issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                    Their
                    candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                    government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                    several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                    Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                    amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                    believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                    the
                    laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                    Senate.




                    The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                    Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                    many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                    declared
                    criminals.



                    I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                    rules
                    of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                    every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                    Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                    legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                    by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                    lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                    I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                    authority
                    of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                    want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                    Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                    the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                    taken
                    away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                    the
                    mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                    HHHH



                    There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                    changing
                    what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                    will
                    end up supporting chaos.



                    Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                    in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                    overboard
                    in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                    the
                    current parties are selling at this time.



                    I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                    floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                    they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                    Sandy Pricee has



                    _____



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links










                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    _____

                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                    * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                    _____



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Yahoo! Groups Links








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sandra Price
                    I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                      believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                      you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                      will be implicated.



                      Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                      pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                      Sandy

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                      his
                      organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                      but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                      work to change the law."

                      Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                      I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                      is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                      As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                      Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                      them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                      speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                      Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                      and
                      honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                      Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                      on
                      this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                      prison.
                      Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                      extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                      with
                      these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                      Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                      coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                      tooth fairy.



                      I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                      recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                      fringe
                      on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                      silly.
                      The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                      breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                      tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                      1970
                      when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                      enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                      the
                      writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                      Price
                      (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                      petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                      For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                      the
                      people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                      fine.
                      HHHH

                      You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                      organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                      but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                      work to change the law.



                      Sandy



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Sandy,

                      I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                      family
                      threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                      race?

                      I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                      that's
                      what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                      try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                      I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                      to
                      become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                      many
                      issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                      Their
                      candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                      the
                      government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                      several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                      Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                      and
                      amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                      who
                      believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                      the
                      laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                      Senate.




                      The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                      the
                      Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                      with
                      many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                      declared
                      criminals.



                      I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                      rules
                      of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                      every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                      Bush
                      Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                      is
                      legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                      run
                      by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                      lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                      I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                      authority
                      of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                      not
                      want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                      Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                      has
                      the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                      taken
                      away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                      the
                      mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                      HHHH



                      There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                      changing
                      what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                      will
                      end up supporting chaos.



                      Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                      elections
                      in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                      overboard
                      in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                      the
                      current parties are selling at this time.



                      I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                      floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                      way
                      they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                      Sandy Pricee has



                      _____



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Yahoo! Groups Links










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      _____

                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                      * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                      * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



                      * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                      _____



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      SPONSORED LINKS


                      E
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=E+government&w1=E+government&w2=Governm
                      ent+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=Gove
                      rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
                      government

                      Government
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+procurement&w1=E+government&
                      w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+wom
                      en&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=x08HqhIkgDQfcWV
                      fJx8BIg> procurement

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                      overnment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w
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                      11Q> leasing


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                      ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
                      r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
                      ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

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                      ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
                      Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
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                    • Denise Bensusan
                      Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Good points Sandy!

                        Thanks
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                        believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                        you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                        will be implicated.



                        Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                        pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                        Sandy

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                        Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                        his
                        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                        work to change the law."

                        Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                        I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                        is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                        As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                        Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                        them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                        speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                        Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                        and
                        honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                        Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                        on
                        this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                        prison.
                        Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                        extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                        with
                        these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                        Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                        coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                        tooth fairy.



                        I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                        recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                        fringe
                        on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                        silly.
                        The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                        breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                        tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                        1970
                        when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                        enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                        the
                        writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                        Price
                        (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                        petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                        For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                        the
                        people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                        fine.
                        HHHH

                        You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                        work to change the law.



                        Sandy



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                        Sandy,

                        I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                        family
                        threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                        race?

                        I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                        that's
                        what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                        try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                        I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                        to
                        become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                        ---- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                        many
                        issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                        Their
                        candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                        the
                        government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                        several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                        Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                        and
                        amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                        who
                        believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                        the
                        laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                        Senate.




                        The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                        the
                        Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                        with
                        many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                        declared
                        criminals.



                        I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                        rules
                        of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                        every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                        Bush
                        Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                        is
                        legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                        run
                        by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                        lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                        I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                        authority
                        of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                        not
                        want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                        Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                        has
                        the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                        taken
                        away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                        the
                        mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                        HHHH



                        There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                        changing
                        what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                        will
                        end up supporting chaos.



                        Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                        elections
                        in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                        overboard
                        in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                        the
                        current parties are selling at this time.



                        I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                        floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                        way
                        they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                        Sandy Pricee has



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                        rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
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                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+procurement&w1=E+government&
                        w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+wom
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                        5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=4An7abdoxVxJCCADxGE
                        11Q> leasing


                        Government
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                        ment&w2=Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+fo
                        r+women&w5=Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=NZ3lBUk-AR
                        ctXIJFZwwxQA> grants for women

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                        ernment+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&w5=
                        Government+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=lT0SF7xRS325Hg8YKetxj
                        w> lease

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                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Government+contract&w1=E+government&w2=
                        Government+procurement&w3=Government+leasing&w4=Government+grants+for+women&
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                      • Derek
                        Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                          will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                          people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                          wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                          know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                          The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                          full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                          Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                          Derek



                          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                          <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                          you to join his
                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                          go ahead
                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                          direction and
                          > work to change the law."
                          >
                          > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                          stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                          premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                          >
                          > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                          different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                          unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                          they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                          least for today...LOL
                          >
                          > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Sandra Price
                          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                          Direction
                          >
                          >
                          > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                          legitimately and
                          > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                          Michael
                          > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                          inside source on
                          > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                          are in prison.
                          > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                          time for
                          > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                          signs up with
                          > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                          near future.
                          > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                          close to
                          > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                          believing in the
                          > tooth fairy.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                          I do
                          > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                          gold fringe
                          > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                          stupid silly.
                          > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                          Simply
                          > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                          prison. I'm
                          > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                          tried it in 1970
                          > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                          would gather
                          > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                          voters. One of the
                          > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                          Oliver Ray Price
                          > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                          of this
                          > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                          California and the
                          > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                          system was fine.
                          > HHHH
                          >
                          > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                          his
                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                          go ahead
                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                          direction and
                          > work to change the law.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sandy
                        • Derek
                          No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
                            at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
                            college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
                            of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
                            only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
                            or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
                            is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
                            we barely have time for anything but studies.

                            I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
                            class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
                            registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
                            about the other 2 guys.

                            I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
                            have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
                            thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
                            could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
                            then either.

                            But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
                            are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
                            establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
                            lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

                            If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
                            were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
                            liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
                            think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

                            How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
                            you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
                            make it worth it?

                            Derek



                            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                            <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Derek,
                            >
                            > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
                            >
                            >
                            > Denise
                          • Sandra Price
                            You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                              if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                              Sandy



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                              Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                              will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                              people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                              wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                              know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                              The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                              full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                              Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                              Derek



                              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                              <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                              you to join his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law."
                              >
                              > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                              stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                              premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                              >
                              > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                              different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                              unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                              they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                              least for today...LOL
                              >
                              > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Sandra Price
                              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                              Direction
                              >
                              >
                              > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                              legitimately and
                              > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                              Michael
                              > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                              inside source on
                              > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                              are in prison.
                              > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                              time for
                              > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                              signs up with
                              > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                              near future.
                              > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                              close to
                              > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                              believing in the
                              > tooth fairy.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                              I do
                              > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                              gold fringe
                              > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                              stupid silly.
                              > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                              Simply
                              > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                              prison. I'm
                              > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                              tried it in 1970
                              > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                              would gather
                              > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                              voters. One of the
                              > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                              Oliver Ray Price
                              > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                              of this
                              > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                              California and the
                              > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                              system was fine.
                              > HHHH
                              >
                              > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                              his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sandy







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                            • Denise Bensusan
                              Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sandy,

                                Have you been to the FSP site?

                                http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                Mo offense intended of course....

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sandra Price
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                Sandy



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                Derek



                                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                you to join his
                                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                go ahead
                                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                direction and
                                > work to change the law."
                                >
                                > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                >
                                > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                least for today...LOL
                                >
                                > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Sandra Price
                                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                Direction
                                >
                                >
                                > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                legitimately and
                                > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                Michael
                                > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                inside source on
                                > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                are in prison.
                                > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                time for
                                > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                signs up with
                                > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                near future.
                                > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                close to
                                > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                believing in the
                                > tooth fairy.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                I do
                                > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                gold fringe
                                > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                stupid silly.
                                > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                Simply
                                > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                prison. I'm
                                > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                tried it in 1970
                                > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                would gather
                                > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                voters. One of the
                                > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                Oliver Ray Price
                                > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                of this
                                > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                California and the
                                > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                system was fine.
                                > HHHH
                                >
                                > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                his
                                > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                go ahead
                                > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                direction and
                                > work to change the law.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Sandy







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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Sandra Price
                                Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                                  I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                                  the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                                  am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                                  for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                                  there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                                  I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                                  check the FSP later on.



                                  Sandy



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                  Sandy,

                                  Have you been to the FSP site?

                                  http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                  It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                                  support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                                  wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                  Mo offense intended of course....

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sandra Price
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                  You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                  if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                  Sandy



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                  Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                  will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                  people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                  wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                  know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                  The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                  full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                  Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                  Derek



                                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                  <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                  you to join his
                                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                  go ahead
                                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                  direction and
                                  > work to change the law."
                                  >
                                  > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                  stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                  premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                  >
                                  > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                  different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                  unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                  they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                  least for today...LOL
                                  >
                                  > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Sandra Price
                                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                  > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                  Direction
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                  legitimately and
                                  > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                  Michael
                                  > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                  inside source on
                                  > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                  are in prison.
                                  > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                  time for
                                  > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                  signs up with
                                  > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                  near future.
                                  > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                  close to
                                  > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                  believing in the
                                  > tooth fairy.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                  I do
                                  > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                  gold fringe
                                  > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                  stupid silly.
                                  > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                  Simply
                                  > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                  prison. I'm
                                  > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                  tried it in 1970
                                  > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                  would gather
                                  > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                  voters. One of the
                                  > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                  Oliver Ray Price
                                  > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                  of this
                                  > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                  California and the
                                  > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                  system was fine.
                                  > HHHH
                                  >
                                  > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                  his
                                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                  go ahead
                                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                  direction and
                                  > work to change the law.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sandy







                                  _____

                                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                                  * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



                                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                  _____



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links










                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  _____

                                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                                  * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                  _____



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