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RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction

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  • Sandra Price
    Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of candidates. From
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
      Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
      Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of
      candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
      themselves. To hell with that!



      Sandy Price



      -----Original Message-----
      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
      Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



      Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that
      Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Derek
      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


      Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
      who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
      of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
      a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
      could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
      too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
      shenanigans.

      Derek Williams




      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
      >
      > Sandy Price
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
      Bensusan
      > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
      > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
      > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
      >
      > Forwarded for your interest:
      >
      > Searching for a New Direction
      >
      > by Ron Paul
      > by Ron Paul
      >
      >
      >
      > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
      >
      > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
      scandal
      > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
      Koreagate;
      > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
      Possibly so.
      > It's certainly serious and significant.
      >
      > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
      the mess.
      > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
      requirements, and
      > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
      we mean
      > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
      Congress. It is
      > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
      > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
      crisis of
      > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
      well. But it's
      > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
      the
      > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
      to
      > properly identify and deal with.
      >
      > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
      Congress is
      > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
      about what
      > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
      do much to
      > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
      addressing the
      > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
      and writing
      > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
      nothing.
      >
      > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
      solution to
      > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
      Perhaps some of
      > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
      > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
      miserably corrupt
      > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
      denial.
      > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
      more and
      > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
      to what
      > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
      irresponsible
      > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by successive
      > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
      recipients of
      > the largesse.
      >
      > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
      significantly
      > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
      those who
      > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
      that has
      > evolved over the decades.
      >
      > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
      outcry over
      > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
      poorer and
      > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
      > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
      master the
      > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
      who truly
      > benefit.
      >
      > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
      dependency on
      > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
      as the
      > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
      leadership are
      > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
      >
      > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
      itself to
      > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
      >
      > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
      serious
      > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
      detested
      > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
      documents. Today,
      > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
      life,
      > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
      miles away.
      > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
      > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
      allowed to rule
      > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
      >
      > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
      that a
      > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
      confiscated
      > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
      and
      > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
      wonder a
      > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
      Add this to
      > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
      due to a
      > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
      and we
      > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
      the tricks
      > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
      their aides
      > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
      lucrative
      > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
      process invites
      > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
      because of the
      > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
      generates.
      >
      > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
      > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
      truly
      > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
      and
      > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
      will be
      > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
      >
      > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
      proposition.
      > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
      its source,
      > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
      states: "Congress shall
      > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition the
      government
      > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
      >
      > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
      comes from
      > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
      what do we
      > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
      guidance
      > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
      bribery,
      > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
      the
      > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
      regulations are
      > unnecessary.
      >
      > The theft that the federal government commits against its
      citizens, and the
      > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
      that need to
      > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
      Get rid of
      > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
      of
      > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
      Abramoff
      > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
      a lot
      > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
      removed.
      >
      > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
      > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
      accomplished
      > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
      Members
      > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
      path to a
      > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
      > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
      temptation
      > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
      > acceptable.
      >
      > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
      favoritism
      > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
      stake.
      > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
      accustomed
      > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
      when the
      > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
      in the
      > budget will not solve the problem.
      >
      > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
      are petty
      > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
      Abramoffs in mere
      > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
      down in
      > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
      already, but
      > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
      will cost
      > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
      with.
      > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
      because
      > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering the
      war had
      > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
      being
      > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
      corporations.
      > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
      process. And
      > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
      Dissenters
      > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
      little
      > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
      much to
      > solve.
      >
      > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
      deficit,
      > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
      allies, and
      > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
      destructive
      > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
      Middle
      > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
      >
      > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
      the last
      > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
      trillion dollars,
      > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
      total
      > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
      dollars. Most
      > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
      and the new
      > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
      funds are
      > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
      are
      > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
      finance this
      > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
      debtor nation
      > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
      the way to
      > secure a sound economy.
      >
      > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
      oblivious to the
      > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
      resistance
      > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
      nearly 2 ½
      > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
      demands. The
      > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
      These
      > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
      tinkering with
      > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
      >
      > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
      members
      > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
      capture a piece
      > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
      effectiveness
      > that guarantees a member's re-election.
      >
      > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
      morally and
      > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never questioned.
      It is the
      > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
      poor and
      > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
      > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
      all the
      > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare - while
      delaying
      > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
      >
      > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
      special
      > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
      > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
      question -
      > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
      willingness to
      > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
      and may
      > well diminish in the future.
      >
      > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
      huge amounts
      > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
      and call
      > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
      dollar don't
      > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
      the corrupt
      > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
      unsophisticated buy in
      > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
      another, and
      > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
      central banks
      > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
      counterfeiting.
      >
      > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
      savings, and
      > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
      counterfeiter has no
      > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
      incentive
      > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
      people are
      > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
      way we can
      > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
      foreign
      > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
      wealth that we
      > enjoy.
      >
      > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
      illegal
      > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
      and
      > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
      economy
      > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
      education and
      > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are dependent on
      our
      > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
      debt becomes
      > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
      States will
      > change.
      >
      > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
      the money
      > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
      corporations, and
      > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
      ones at the
      > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
      dollars to buy
      > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
      then their
      > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
      goes down.
      >
      > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
      thirty-four
      > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
      Industries go
      > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
      middle class,
      > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
      hopes to keep
      > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
      struggle to
      > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
      > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
      problem: it all
      > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
      > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
      end are
      > already appearing.
      >
      > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
      consequence
      > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
      dollar price
      > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
      increase).
      > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
      honored and
      > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
      The
      > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
      soundness of its
      > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
      depreciated
      > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
      downfall. That
      > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
      >
      > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
      yet on
      > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
      being
      > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
      > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
      We'll make
      > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
      how to be
      > more ethical.
      >
      > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
      hides a
      > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
      is hard to
      > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
      economic,
      > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
      >
      > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
      (helping the
      > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
      capitalize
      > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
      Eventually
      > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
      borrowing,
      > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
      > distributes loot by majority vote.
      >
      > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
      government
      > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
      controlled and
      > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
      accept our
      > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
      despite the
      > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
      >
      > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
      policy
      > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
      lot. And
      > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
      until there is
      > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
      currency, and a
      > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
      confidence.
      >
      > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
      with
      > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
      government and
      > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
      > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money that
      creates
      > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
      feed off the
      > corrupt system.
      >
      > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals wealth
      from the
      > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
      same.
      > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
      of each
      > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
      wealthy in the
      > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
      more uneasy
      > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
      >
      > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
      context of
      > the entire system that encourages corruption.
      >
      > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
      an
      > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
      come of
      > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
      our personal
      > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
      around the
      > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
      lobbyists
      > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
      understand
      > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
      petition their
      > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
      pervasive
      > problem.
      >
      > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
      > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
      American people
      > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
      >
      > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
      > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
      > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
      > 4.. No more nation building;
      > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
      > 6.. No more deficits;
      > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
      > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
      embarrass those
      > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
      policy;
      > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
      disloyal
      > to the country;
      > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
      spending
      > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
      > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
      international NGOs,
      > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
      corporate
      > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
      > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
      abiding
      > American citizens;
      > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
      by
      > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
      violators,
      > and gun ownership.
      > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
      an
      > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
      of the
      > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
      checks and
      > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
      that spies
      > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
      and
      > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
      be a
      > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
      >
      > January 19, 2006
      >
      > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
      >
      > Denise
      >
      > Denise Bensusan
      > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
      > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
      > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
      >
      > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
      of the
      > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
      United
      > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
      not to
      > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
      the
      > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >







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    • Denise Bensusan
      That seems to be the problem...we cant vote for the smaller party i.e. LP as our vote is simply wasted. I m not so sure our votes are actually counted
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
        That seems to be the problem...we cant vote for the smaller party i.e. LP as our vote is simply wasted.

        I'm not so sure our votes are actually counted anyway....LOL


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sandra Price
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:50 PM
        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


        Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
        Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of
        candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
        themselves. To hell with that!



        Sandy Price



        -----Original Message-----
        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
        Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



        Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that
        Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Derek
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


        Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
        who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
        of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
        a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
        could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
        too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
        shenanigans.

        Derek Williams




        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
        >
        > Sandy Price
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
        Bensusan
        > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
        > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
        > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
        >
        > Forwarded for your interest:
        >
        > Searching for a New Direction
        >
        > by Ron Paul
        > by Ron Paul
        >
        >
        >
        > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
        >
        > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
        scandal
        > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
        Koreagate;
        > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
        Possibly so.
        > It's certainly serious and significant.
        >
        > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
        the mess.
        > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
        requirements, and
        > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
        we mean
        > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
        Congress. It is
        > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
        > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
        crisis of
        > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
        well. But it's
        > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
        the
        > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
        to
        > properly identify and deal with.
        >
        > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
        Congress is
        > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
        about what
        > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
        do much to
        > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
        addressing the
        > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
        and writing
        > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
        nothing.
        >
        > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
        solution to
        > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
        Perhaps some of
        > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
        > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
        miserably corrupt
        > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
        denial.
        > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
        more and
        > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
        to what
        > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
        irresponsible
        > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by successive
        > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
        recipients of
        > the largesse.
        >
        > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
        significantly
        > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
        those who
        > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
        that has
        > evolved over the decades.
        >
        > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
        outcry over
        > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
        poorer and
        > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
        > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
        master the
        > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
        who truly
        > benefit.
        >
        > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
        dependency on
        > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
        as the
        > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
        leadership are
        > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
        >
        > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
        itself to
        > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
        >
        > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
        serious
        > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
        detested
        > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
        documents. Today,
        > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
        life,
        > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
        miles away.
        > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
        > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
        allowed to rule
        > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
        >
        > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
        that a
        > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
        confiscated
        > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
        and
        > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
        wonder a
        > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
        Add this to
        > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
        due to a
        > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
        and we
        > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
        the tricks
        > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
        their aides
        > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
        lucrative
        > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
        process invites
        > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
        because of the
        > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
        generates.
        >
        > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
        > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
        truly
        > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
        and
        > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
        will be
        > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
        >
        > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
        proposition.
        > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
        its source,
        > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
        states: "Congress shall
        > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition the
        government
        > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
        >
        > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
        comes from
        > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
        what do we
        > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
        guidance
        > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
        bribery,
        > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
        the
        > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
        regulations are
        > unnecessary.
        >
        > The theft that the federal government commits against its
        citizens, and the
        > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
        that need to
        > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
        Get rid of
        > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
        of
        > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
        Abramoff
        > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
        a lot
        > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
        removed.
        >
        > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
        > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
        accomplished
        > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
        Members
        > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
        path to a
        > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
        > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
        temptation
        > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
        > acceptable.
        >
        > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
        favoritism
        > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
        stake.
        > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
        accustomed
        > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
        when the
        > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
        in the
        > budget will not solve the problem.
        >
        > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
        are petty
        > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
        Abramoffs in mere
        > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
        down in
        > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
        already, but
        > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
        will cost
        > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
        with.
        > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
        because
        > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering the
        war had
        > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
        being
        > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
        corporations.
        > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
        process. And
        > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
        Dissenters
        > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
        little
        > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
        much to
        > solve.
        >
        > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
        deficit,
        > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
        allies, and
        > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
        destructive
        > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
        Middle
        > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
        >
        > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
        the last
        > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
        trillion dollars,
        > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
        total
        > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
        dollars. Most
        > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
        and the new
        > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
        funds are
        > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
        are
        > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
        finance this
        > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
        debtor nation
        > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
        the way to
        > secure a sound economy.
        >
        > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
        oblivious to the
        > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
        resistance
        > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
        nearly 2 ½
        > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
        demands. The
        > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
        These
        > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
        tinkering with
        > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
        >
        > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
        members
        > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
        capture a piece
        > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
        effectiveness
        > that guarantees a member's re-election.
        >
        > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
        morally and
        > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never questioned.
        It is the
        > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
        poor and
        > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
        > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
        all the
        > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare - while
        delaying
        > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
        >
        > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
        special
        > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
        > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
        question -
        > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
        willingness to
        > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
        and may
        > well diminish in the future.
        >
        > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
        huge amounts
        > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
        and call
        > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
        dollar don't
        > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
        the corrupt
        > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
        unsophisticated buy in
        > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
        another, and
        > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
        central banks
        > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
        counterfeiting.
        >
        > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
        savings, and
        > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
        counterfeiter has no
        > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
        incentive
        > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
        people are
        > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
        way we can
        > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
        foreign
        > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
        wealth that we
        > enjoy.
        >
        > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
        illegal
        > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
        and
        > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
        economy
        > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
        education and
        > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are dependent on
        our
        > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
        debt becomes
        > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
        States will
        > change.
        >
        > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
        the money
        > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
        corporations, and
        > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
        ones at the
        > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
        dollars to buy
        > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
        then their
        > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
        goes down.
        >
        > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
        thirty-four
        > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
        Industries go
        > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
        middle class,
        > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
        hopes to keep
        > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
        struggle to
        > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
        > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
        problem: it all
        > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
        > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
        end are
        > already appearing.
        >
        > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
        consequence
        > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
        dollar price
        > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
        increase).
        > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
        honored and
        > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
        The
        > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
        soundness of its
        > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
        depreciated
        > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
        downfall. That
        > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
        >
        > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
        yet on
        > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
        being
        > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
        > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
        We'll make
        > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
        how to be
        > more ethical.
        >
        > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
        hides a
        > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
        is hard to
        > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
        economic,
        > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
        >
        > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
        (helping the
        > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
        capitalize
        > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
        Eventually
        > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
        borrowing,
        > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
        > distributes loot by majority vote.
        >
        > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
        government
        > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
        controlled and
        > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
        accept our
        > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
        despite the
        > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
        >
        > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
        policy
        > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
        lot. And
        > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
        until there is
        > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
        currency, and a
        > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
        confidence.
        >
        > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
        with
        > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
        government and
        > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
        > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money that
        creates
        > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
        feed off the
        > corrupt system.
        >
        > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals wealth
        from the
        > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
        same.
        > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
        of each
        > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
        wealthy in the
        > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
        more uneasy
        > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
        >
        > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
        context of
        > the entire system that encourages corruption.
        >
        > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
        an
        > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
        come of
        > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
        our personal
        > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
        around the
        > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
        lobbyists
        > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
        understand
        > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
        petition their
        > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
        pervasive
        > problem.
        >
        > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
        > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
        American people
        > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
        >
        > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
        > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
        > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
        > 4.. No more nation building;
        > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
        > 6.. No more deficits;
        > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
        > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
        embarrass those
        > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
        policy;
        > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
        disloyal
        > to the country;
        > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
        spending
        > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
        > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
        international NGOs,
        > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
        corporate
        > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
        > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
        abiding
        > American citizens;
        > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
        by
        > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
        violators,
        > and gun ownership.
        > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
        an
        > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
        of the
        > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
        checks and
        > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
        that spies
        > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
        and
        > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
        be a
        > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
        >
        > January 19, 2006
        >
        > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
        >
        > Denise
        >
        > Denise Bensusan
        > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
        > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
        > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
        >
        > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
        of the
        > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
        United
        > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
        not to
        > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
        the
        > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >







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      • Derek Williams
        I don t know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me back and tell me if I
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
          I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
          to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
          back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
          money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
          broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
          now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
          believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
          candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
          candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
          how to relate to the general public.

          I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
          had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
          office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
          fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
          one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
          is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
          Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
          majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
          bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
          don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
          good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

          Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
          keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
          elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
          on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
          need more people like these two running for office.

          I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
          such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
          manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
          one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
          arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
          pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
          training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

          Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
          regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
          (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
          their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
          their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
          Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
          salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
          this story:

          http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

          Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

          Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
          pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
          that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
          manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

          You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
          want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
          barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
          with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
          trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

          So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
          would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
          FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
          overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
          privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
          there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
          any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
          can and cannot put in their bodies.

          I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
          have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
          benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
          them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
          medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
          such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
          words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
          freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
          and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
          theirs.)

          Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
          contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
          supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
          and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
          without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
          that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
          keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
          reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
          is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
          money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
          too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
          when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
          this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
          weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
          less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
          backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
          created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
          dollar you and I work so hard for.

          Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
          state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
          accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
          so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
          inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
          this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
          do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
          advertisements?

          By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
          County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
          the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
          yet.

          These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
          issues?

          Derek








          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
          > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
          choices of
          > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
          > themselves. To hell with that!
          >
          >
          >
          > Sandy Price
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
          Bensusan
          > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
          >
          >
          >
          > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
          much that
          > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Derek
          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
          > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
          >
          >
          > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
          know
          > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
          end
          > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
          for
          > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
          we
          > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
          good
          > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
          > shenanigans.
          >
          > Derek Williams
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
          <s@r...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
          > >
          > > Sandy Price
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
          > Bensusan
          > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
          > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
          > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
          > >
          > > Forwarded for your interest:
          > >
          > > Searching for a New Direction
          > >
          > > by Ron Paul
          > > by Ron Paul
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
          > >
          > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
          Washington
          > scandal
          > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
          > Koreagate;
          > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
          Dome.
          > Possibly so.
          > > It's certainly serious and significant.
          > >
          > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
          with
          > the mess.
          > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
          > requirements, and
          > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
          assured
          > we mean
          > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
          > Congress. It is
          > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
          leadership
          > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
          > crisis of
          > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
          > well. But it's
          > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
          of
          > the
          > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
          refuse
          > to
          > > properly identify and deal with.
          > >
          > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
          way
          > Congress is
          > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
          attitudes
          > about what
          > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
          won't
          > do much to
          > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
          > addressing the
          > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
          leaders
          > and writing
          > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
          achieve
          > nothing.
          > >
          > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
          > solution to
          > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
          > Perhaps some of
          > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
          others
          > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
          > miserably corrupt
          > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
          state of
          > denial.
          > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
          reveals
          > more and
          > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
          and
          > to what
          > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
          > irresponsible
          > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
          successive
          > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
          > recipients of
          > > the largesse.
          > >
          > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
          > significantly
          > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
          especially
          > those who
          > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
          system
          > that has
          > > evolved over the decades.
          > >
          > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
          scant
          > outcry over
          > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
          > poorer and
          > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
          the
          > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
          > master the
          > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
          ones
          > who truly
          > > benefit.
          > >
          > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
          > dependency on
          > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
          itself
          > as the
          > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
          > leadership are
          > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
          > >
          > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
          > itself to
          > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
          > >
          > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
          our
          > serious
          > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
          founders
          > detested
          > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
          > documents. Today,
          > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
          > life,
          > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
          > miles away.
          > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
          No one
          > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
          > allowed to rule
          > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
          > >
          > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
          notion
          > that a
          > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
          loot
          > confiscated
          > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
          morally
          > and
          > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
          > wonder a
          > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
          developed.
          > Add this to
          > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
          decades
          > due to a
          > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
          intervention,
          > and we
          > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
          learn
          > the tricks
          > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
          > their aides
          > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
          more
          > lucrative
          > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
          > process invites
          > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
          > because of the
          > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
          > generates.
          > >
          > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
          > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
          people
          > truly
          > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
          lobbyists
          > and
          > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
          problem
          > will be
          > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
          worse.
          > >
          > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
          > proposition.
          > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
          identifying
          > its source,
          > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
          > states: "Congress shall
          > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
          the
          > government
          > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
          > >
          > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
          corruption
          > comes from
          > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
          So
          > what do we
          > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
          for
          > guidance
          > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
          addressing
          > bribery,
          > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
          with
          > the
          > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
          > regulations are
          > > unnecessary.
          > >
          > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
          > citizens, and the
          > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
          > that need to
          > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
          direction.
          > Get rid of
          > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
          power
          > of
          > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
          the
          > Abramoff
          > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
          would be
          > a lot
          > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
          > removed.
          > >
          > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
          which is
          > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
          > accomplished
          > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
          character.
          > Members
          > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
          the
          > path to a
          > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
          of
          > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
          the
          > temptation
          > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
          are
          > > acceptable.
          > >
          > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
          interest
          > favoritism
          > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
          at
          > stake.
          > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
          grown
          > accustomed
          > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
          Only
          > when the
          > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
          earmarks
          > in the
          > > budget will not solve the problem.
          > >
          > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
          types
          > are petty
          > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
          > Abramoffs in mere
          > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
          bogged
          > down in
          > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
          > already, but
          > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
          actually
          > will cost
          > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
          done
          > with.
          > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
          unpredictable,
          > because
          > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
          the
          > war had
          > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
          bucks
          > being
          > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
          > corporations.
          > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
          > process. And
          > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
          > Dissenters
          > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
          that a
          > little
          > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
          do
          > much to
          > > solve.
          > >
          > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
          national
          > deficit,
          > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
          > allies, and
          > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
          > destructive
          > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
          entire
          > Middle
          > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
          > >
          > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
          over
          > the last
          > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
          > trillion dollars,
          > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
          Our
          > total
          > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
          > dollars. Most
          > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
          system,
          > and the new
          > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
          pension
          > funds are
          > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
          taxpayers. We
          > are
          > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
          to
          > finance this
          > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
          > debtor nation
          > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
          hardly
          > the way to
          > > secure a sound economy.
          > >
          > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
          > oblivious to the
          > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
          no
          > resistance
          > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
          > nearly 2 ½
          > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
          > demands. The
          > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
          > These
          > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
          > tinkering with
          > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
          > >
          > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
          and
          > members
          > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
          > capture a piece
          > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
          > effectiveness
          > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
          > >
          > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
          > morally and
          > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
          questioned.
          > It is the
          > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
          > poor and
          > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
          the
          > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
          of
          > all the
          > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
          while
          > delaying
          > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
          generation.
          > >
          > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
          > special
          > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
          > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
          the
          > question -
          > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
          > willingness to
          > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
          limited
          > and may
          > > well diminish in the future.
          > >
          > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
          create
          > huge amounts
          > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
          rise
          > and call
          > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
          depreciated
          > dollar don't
          > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
          promote
          > the corrupt
          > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
          > unsophisticated buy in
          > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
          to
          > another, and
          > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
          > central banks
          > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
          > counterfeiting.
          > >
          > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
          from
          > savings, and
          > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
          > counterfeiter has no
          > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
          The
          > incentive
          > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
          whose
          > people are
          > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
          only
          > way we can
          > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
          the
          > foreign
          > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
          > wealth that we
          > > enjoy.
          > >
          > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
          of
          > illegal
          > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
          Mexico
          > and
          > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
          our
          > economy
          > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
          > education and
          > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
          dependent on
          > our
          > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
          of
          > debt becomes
          > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
          United
          > States will
          > > change.
          > >
          > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
          use
          > the money
          > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
          > corporations, and
          > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
          > ones at the
          > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
          > dollars to buy
          > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
          By
          > then their
          > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
          > goes down.
          > >
          > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
          > thirty-four
          > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
          > Industries go
          > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
          > middle class,
          > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
          > hopes to keep
          > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
          > struggle to
          > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
          ability to
          > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
          > problem: it all
          > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
          and
          > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
          the
          > end are
          > > already appearing.
          > >
          > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
          a
          > consequence
          > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
          > dollar price
          > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
          > increase).
          > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
          time-
          > honored and
          > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
          55%.
          > The
          > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
          > soundness of its
          > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
          she
          > depreciated
          > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
          > downfall. That
          > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
          > >
          > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
          not
          > yet on
          > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
          problem is
          > being
          > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
          terms,
          > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
          > We'll make
          > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
          learn
          > how to be
          > > more ethical.
          > >
          > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
          and
          > hides a
          > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
          creation
          > is hard to
          > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
          our
          > economic,
          > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
          > >
          > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
          > (helping the
          > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
          to
          > capitalize
          > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
          > Eventually
          > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
          > borrowing,
          > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
          that
          > > distributes loot by majority vote.
          > >
          > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
          > government
          > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
          > controlled and
          > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
          to
          > accept our
          > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
          question,
          > despite the
          > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
          > >
          > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
          in
          > policy
          > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
          > lot. And
          > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
          > until there is
          > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
          > currency, and a
          > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
          > confidence.
          > >
          > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
          over
          > with
          > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
          > government and
          > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
          toward
          > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
          that
          > creates
          > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
          > feed off the
          > > corrupt system.
          > >
          > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
          wealth
          > from the
          > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
          the
          > same.
          > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
          value
          > of each
          > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
          > wealthy in the
          > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
          and
          > more uneasy
          > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
          > >
          > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
          in
          > context of
          > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
          > >
          > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
          not
          > an
          > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
          will
          > come of
          > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
          in
          > our personal
          > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
          > around the
          > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
          > lobbyists
          > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
          > understand
          > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
          > petition their
          > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
          > pervasive
          > > problem.
          > >
          > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
          > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
          > American people
          > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
          > >
          > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
          > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
          > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
          > > 4.. No more nation building;
          > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
          > > 6.. No more deficits;
          > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
          > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
          > embarrass those
          > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
          current
          > policy;
          > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
          unpatriotic or
          > disloyal
          > > to the country;
          > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
          budget
          > spending
          > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
          > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
          > international NGOs,
          > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
          > corporate
          > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
          > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
          law-
          > abiding
          > > American citizens;
          > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
          liberty
          > by
          > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
          tax
          > violators,
          > > and gun ownership.
          > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
          as
          > an
          > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
          principle
          > of the
          > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
          provide
          > checks and
          > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
          judiciary)
          > that spies
          > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
          wars,
          > and
          > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
          to
          > be a
          > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
          > >
          > > January 19, 2006
          > >
          > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
          > >
          > > Denise
          > >
          > > Denise Bensusan
          > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
          > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
          > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
          > >
          > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
          Constitution
          > of the
          > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
          the
          > United
          > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
          Courts,
          > not to
          > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
          pervert
          > the
          > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          >
          >
          > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
          >
          >
          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
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          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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          >
        • Sandra Price
          Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
            Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
            issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
            candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
            government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
            several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
            Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
            amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
            believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
            laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




            The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
            Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
            many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
            criminals.



            I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
            of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
            every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
            Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
            legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
            by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
            lives and will eliminate our state rights.



            I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
            of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
            want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
            Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
            the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
            away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
            mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

            HHHH



            There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
            what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
            end up supporting chaos.



            Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
            in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
            in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
            current parties are selling at this time.



            I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
            floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
            they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



            Sandy Pricee has



            _____



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Denise Bensusan
            Derek, Excellent insight on all counts. Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that state dept. of
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
              Derek,

              Excellent insight on all counts.

              Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
              state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
              accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
              so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
              inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
              this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
              do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
              advertisements?

              I'm in Kingman and the Republicans run this county!!!!! Heck they run this state in my opinion. This NOT crossing party lines when making any and all decisions has gotten so ridiculous that this government has lost all legitimacy!!



              Denise
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Derek Williams
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
              to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
              back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
              money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
              broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
              now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
              believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
              candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
              candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
              how to relate to the general public.

              I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
              had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
              office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
              fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
              one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
              is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
              Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
              majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
              bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
              don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
              good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

              Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
              keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
              elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
              on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
              need more people like these two running for office.

              I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
              such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
              manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
              one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
              arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
              pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
              training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

              Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
              regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
              (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
              their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
              their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
              Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
              salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
              this story:

              http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

              Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

              Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
              pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
              that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
              manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

              You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
              want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
              barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
              with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
              trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

              So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
              would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
              FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
              overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
              privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
              there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
              any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
              can and cannot put in their bodies.

              I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
              have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
              benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
              them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
              medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
              such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
              words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
              freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
              and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
              theirs.)

              Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
              contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
              supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
              and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
              without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
              that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
              keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
              reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
              is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
              money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
              too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
              when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
              this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
              weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
              less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
              backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
              created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
              dollar you and I work so hard for.

              Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
              state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
              accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
              so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
              inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
              this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
              do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
              advertisements?

              By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
              County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
              the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
              yet.

              These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
              issues?

              Derek








              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
              > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
              choices of
              > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
              > themselves. To hell with that!
              >
              >
              >
              > Sandy Price
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
              Bensusan
              > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
              >
              >
              >
              > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
              much that
              > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Derek
              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
              > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
              >
              >
              > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
              know
              > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
              end
              > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
              for
              > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
              we
              > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
              good
              > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
              > shenanigans.
              >
              > Derek Williams
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
              <s@r...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
              > >
              > > Sandy Price
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
              > Bensusan
              > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
              > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
              > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
              > >
              > > Forwarded for your interest:
              > >
              > > Searching for a New Direction
              > >
              > > by Ron Paul
              > > by Ron Paul
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
              > >
              > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
              Washington
              > scandal
              > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
              > Koreagate;
              > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
              Dome.
              > Possibly so.
              > > It's certainly serious and significant.
              > >
              > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
              with
              > the mess.
              > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
              > requirements, and
              > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
              assured
              > we mean
              > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
              > Congress. It is
              > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
              leadership
              > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
              > crisis of
              > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
              > well. But it's
              > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
              of
              > the
              > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
              refuse
              > to
              > > properly identify and deal with.
              > >
              > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
              way
              > Congress is
              > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
              attitudes
              > about what
              > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
              won't
              > do much to
              > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
              > addressing the
              > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
              leaders
              > and writing
              > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
              achieve
              > nothing.
              > >
              > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
              > solution to
              > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
              > Perhaps some of
              > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
              others
              > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
              > miserably corrupt
              > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
              state of
              > denial.
              > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
              reveals
              > more and
              > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
              and
              > to what
              > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
              > irresponsible
              > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
              successive
              > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
              > recipients of
              > > the largesse.
              > >
              > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
              > significantly
              > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
              especially
              > those who
              > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
              system
              > that has
              > > evolved over the decades.
              > >
              > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
              scant
              > outcry over
              > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
              > poorer and
              > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
              the
              > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
              > master the
              > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
              ones
              > who truly
              > > benefit.
              > >
              > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
              > dependency on
              > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
              itself
              > as the
              > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
              > leadership are
              > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
              > >
              > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
              > itself to
              > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
              > >
              > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
              our
              > serious
              > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
              founders
              > detested
              > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
              > documents. Today,
              > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
              > life,
              > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
              > miles away.
              > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
              No one
              > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
              > allowed to rule
              > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
              > >
              > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
              notion
              > that a
              > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
              loot
              > confiscated
              > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
              morally
              > and
              > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
              > wonder a
              > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
              developed.
              > Add this to
              > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
              decades
              > due to a
              > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
              intervention,
              > and we
              > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
              learn
              > the tricks
              > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
              > their aides
              > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
              more
              > lucrative
              > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
              > process invites
              > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
              > because of the
              > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
              > generates.
              > >
              > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
              > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
              people
              > truly
              > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
              lobbyists
              > and
              > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
              problem
              > will be
              > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
              worse.
              > >
              > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
              > proposition.
              > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
              identifying
              > its source,
              > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
              > states: "Congress shall
              > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
              the
              > government
              > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
              > >
              > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
              corruption
              > comes from
              > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
              So
              > what do we
              > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
              for
              > guidance
              > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
              addressing
              > bribery,
              > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
              with
              > the
              > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
              > regulations are
              > > unnecessary.
              > >
              > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
              > citizens, and the
              > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
              > that need to
              > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
              direction.
              > Get rid of
              > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
              power
              > of
              > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
              the
              > Abramoff
              > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
              would be
              > a lot
              > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
              > removed.
              > >
              > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
              which is
              > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
              > accomplished
              > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
              character.
              > Members
              > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
              the
              > path to a
              > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
              of
              > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
              the
              > temptation
              > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
              are
              > > acceptable.
              > >
              > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
              interest
              > favoritism
              > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
              at
              > stake.
              > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
              grown
              > accustomed
              > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
              Only
              > when the
              > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
              earmarks
              > in the
              > > budget will not solve the problem.
              > >
              > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
              types
              > are petty
              > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
              > Abramoffs in mere
              > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
              bogged
              > down in
              > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
              > already, but
              > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
              actually
              > will cost
              > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
              done
              > with.
              > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
              unpredictable,
              > because
              > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
              the
              > war had
              > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
              bucks
              > being
              > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
              > corporations.
              > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
              > process. And
              > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
              > Dissenters
              > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
              that a
              > little
              > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
              do
              > much to
              > > solve.
              > >
              > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
              national
              > deficit,
              > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
              > allies, and
              > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
              > destructive
              > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
              entire
              > Middle
              > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
              > >
              > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
              over
              > the last
              > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
              > trillion dollars,
              > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
              Our
              > total
              > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
              > dollars. Most
              > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
              system,
              > and the new
              > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
              pension
              > funds are
              > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
              taxpayers. We
              > are
              > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
              to
              > finance this
              > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
              > debtor nation
              > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
              hardly
              > the way to
              > > secure a sound economy.
              > >
              > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
              > oblivious to the
              > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
              no
              > resistance
              > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
              > nearly 2 ½
              > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
              > demands. The
              > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
              > These
              > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
              > tinkering with
              > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
              > >
              > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
              and
              > members
              > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
              > capture a piece
              > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
              > effectiveness
              > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
              > >
              > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
              > morally and
              > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
              questioned.
              > It is the
              > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
              > poor and
              > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
              the
              > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
              of
              > all the
              > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
              while
              > delaying
              > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
              generation.
              > >
              > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
              > special
              > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
              > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
              the
              > question -
              > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
              > willingness to
              > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
              limited
              > and may
              > > well diminish in the future.
              > >
              > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
              create
              > huge amounts
              > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
              rise
              > and call
              > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
              depreciated
              > dollar don't
              > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
              promote
              > the corrupt
              > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
              > unsophisticated buy in
              > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
              to
              > another, and
              > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
              > central banks
              > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
              > counterfeiting.
              > >
              > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
              from
              > savings, and
              > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
              > counterfeiter has no
              > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
              The
              > incentive
              > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
              whose
              > people are
              > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
              only
              > way we can
              > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
              the
              > foreign
              > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
              > wealth that we
              > > enjoy.
              > >
              > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
              of
              > illegal
              > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
              Mexico
              > and
              > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
              our
              > economy
              > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
              > education and
              > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
              dependent on
              > our
              > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
              of
              > debt becomes
              > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
              United
              > States will
              > > change.
              > >
              > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
              use
              > the money
              > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
              > corporations, and
              > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
              > ones at the
              > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
              > dollars to buy
              > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
              By
              > then their
              > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
              > goes down.
              > >
              > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
              > thirty-four
              > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
              > Industries go
              > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
              > middle class,
              > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
              > hopes to keep
              > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
              > struggle to
              > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
              ability to
              > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
              > problem: it all
              > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
              and
              > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
              the
              > end are
              > > already appearing.
              > >
              > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
              a
              > consequence
              > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
              > dollar price
              > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
              > increase).
              > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
              time-
              > honored and
              > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
              55%.
              > The
              > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
              > soundness of its
              > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
              she
              > depreciated
              > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
              > downfall. That
              > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
              > >
              > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
              not
              > yet on
              > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
              problem is
              > being
              > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
              terms,
              > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
              > We'll make
              > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
              learn
              > how to be
              > > more ethical.
              > >
              > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
              and
              > hides a
              > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
              creation
              > is hard to
              > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
              our
              > economic,
              > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
              > >
              > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
              > (helping the
              > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
              to
              > capitalize
              > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
              > Eventually
              > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
              > borrowing,
              > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
              that
              > > distributes loot by majority vote.
              > >
              > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
              > government
              > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
              > controlled and
              > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
              to
              > accept our
              > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
              question,
              > despite the
              > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
              > >
              > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
              in
              > policy
              > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
              > lot. And
              > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
              > until there is
              > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
              > currency, and a
              > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
              > confidence.
              > >
              > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
              over
              > with
              > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
              > government and
              > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
              toward
              > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
              that
              > creates
              > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
              > feed off the
              > > corrupt system.
              > >
              > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
              wealth
              > from the
              > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
              the
              > same.
              > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
              value
              > of each
              > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
              > wealthy in the
              > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
              and
              > more uneasy
              > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
              > >
              > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
              in
              > context of
              > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
              > >
              > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
              not
              > an
              > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
              will
              > come of
              > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
              in
              > our personal
              > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
              > around the
              > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
              > lobbyists
              > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
              > understand
              > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
              > petition their
              > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
              > pervasive
              > > problem.
              > >
              > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
              > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
              > American people
              > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
              > >
              > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
              > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
              > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
              > > 4.. No more nation building;
              > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
              > > 6.. No more deficits;
              > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
              > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
              > embarrass those
              > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
              current
              > policy;
              > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
              unpatriotic or
              > disloyal
              > > to the country;
              > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
              budget
              > spending
              > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
              > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
              > international NGOs,
              > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
              > corporate
              > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
              > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
              law-
              > abiding
              > > American citizens;
              > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
              liberty
              > by
              > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
              tax
              > violators,
              > > and gun ownership.
              > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
              as
              > an
              > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
              principle
              > of the
              > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
              provide
              > checks and
              > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
              judiciary)
              > that spies
              > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
              wars,
              > and
              > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
              to
              > be a
              > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
              > >
              > > January 19, 2006
              > >
              > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
              > >
              > > Denise
              > >
              > > Denise Bensusan
              > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
              > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
              > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
              > >
              > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
              Constitution
              > of the
              > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
              the
              > United
              > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
              Courts,
              > not to
              > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
              pervert
              > the
              > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              >
              > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
              >
              >
              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
              subject=Unsubscribe>
              >
              >
              > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >








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            • Denise Bensusan
              Sandy, I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn t his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                Sandy,

                I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the race?

                I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                ---- Original Message -----
                From: Sandra Price
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
                issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
                candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
                laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




                The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
                criminals.



                I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
                of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
                of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
                away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
                mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                HHHH



                There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
                what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
                end up supporting chaos.



                Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
                in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
                current parties are selling at this time.



                I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                Sandy Pricee has



                _____



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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              • Denise Bensusan
                Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                  Derek,

                  Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


                  Denise
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Derek Williams
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
                  Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                  I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
                  to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
                  back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
                  money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
                  broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
                  now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
                  believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
                  candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
                  candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
                  how to relate to the general public.

                  I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
                  had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
                  office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
                  fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
                  one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
                  is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
                  Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
                  majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
                  bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
                  don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
                  good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

                  Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
                  keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
                  elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
                  on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
                  need more people like these two running for office.

                  I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
                  such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
                  manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
                  one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
                  arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
                  pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
                  training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

                  Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
                  regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
                  (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
                  their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
                  their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
                  Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
                  salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
                  this story:

                  http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

                  Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

                  Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
                  pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
                  that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
                  manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

                  You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
                  want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
                  barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
                  with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
                  trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

                  So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
                  would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
                  FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
                  overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
                  privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
                  there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
                  any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
                  can and cannot put in their bodies.

                  I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
                  have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
                  benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
                  them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
                  medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
                  such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
                  words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
                  freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
                  and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
                  theirs.)

                  Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
                  contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
                  supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
                  and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
                  without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
                  that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
                  keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
                  reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
                  is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
                  money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
                  too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
                  when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
                  this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
                  weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
                  less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
                  backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
                  created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
                  dollar you and I work so hard for.

                  Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
                  state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
                  accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
                  so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
                  inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
                  this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
                  do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
                  advertisements?

                  By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
                  County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
                  the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
                  yet.

                  These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
                  issues?

                  Derek








                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
                  > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
                  choices of
                  > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
                  > themselves. To hell with that!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sandy Price
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                  Bensusan
                  > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
                  much that
                  > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Derek
                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
                  > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                  >
                  >
                  > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
                  know
                  > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
                  end
                  > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
                  for
                  > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
                  we
                  > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
                  good
                  > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
                  > shenanigans.
                  >
                  > Derek Williams
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
                  <s@r...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
                  > >
                  > > Sandy Price
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                  > Bensusan
                  > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
                  > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
                  > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
                  > >
                  > > Forwarded for your interest:
                  > >
                  > > Searching for a New Direction
                  > >
                  > > by Ron Paul
                  > > by Ron Paul
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
                  > >
                  > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
                  Washington
                  > scandal
                  > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
                  > Koreagate;
                  > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
                  Dome.
                  > Possibly so.
                  > > It's certainly serious and significant.
                  > >
                  > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
                  with
                  > the mess.
                  > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
                  > requirements, and
                  > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
                  assured
                  > we mean
                  > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
                  > Congress. It is
                  > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
                  leadership
                  > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
                  > crisis of
                  > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
                  > well. But it's
                  > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
                  of
                  > the
                  > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
                  refuse
                  > to
                  > > properly identify and deal with.
                  > >
                  > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
                  way
                  > Congress is
                  > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
                  attitudes
                  > about what
                  > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
                  won't
                  > do much to
                  > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
                  > addressing the
                  > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
                  leaders
                  > and writing
                  > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
                  achieve
                  > nothing.
                  > >
                  > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
                  > solution to
                  > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
                  > Perhaps some of
                  > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
                  others
                  > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
                  > miserably corrupt
                  > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
                  state of
                  > denial.
                  > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
                  reveals
                  > more and
                  > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
                  and
                  > to what
                  > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
                  > irresponsible
                  > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
                  successive
                  > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
                  > recipients of
                  > > the largesse.
                  > >
                  > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
                  > significantly
                  > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
                  especially
                  > those who
                  > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
                  system
                  > that has
                  > > evolved over the decades.
                  > >
                  > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
                  scant
                  > outcry over
                  > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
                  > poorer and
                  > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
                  the
                  > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
                  > master the
                  > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
                  ones
                  > who truly
                  > > benefit.
                  > >
                  > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
                  > dependency on
                  > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
                  itself
                  > as the
                  > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
                  > leadership are
                  > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
                  > >
                  > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
                  > itself to
                  > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
                  > >
                  > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
                  our
                  > serious
                  > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
                  founders
                  > detested
                  > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
                  > documents. Today,
                  > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
                  > life,
                  > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
                  > miles away.
                  > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
                  No one
                  > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
                  > allowed to rule
                  > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
                  > >
                  > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
                  notion
                  > that a
                  > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
                  loot
                  > confiscated
                  > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
                  morally
                  > and
                  > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
                  > wonder a
                  > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
                  developed.
                  > Add this to
                  > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
                  decades
                  > due to a
                  > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
                  intervention,
                  > and we
                  > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
                  learn
                  > the tricks
                  > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
                  > their aides
                  > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
                  more
                  > lucrative
                  > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
                  > process invites
                  > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
                  > because of the
                  > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
                  > generates.
                  > >
                  > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
                  > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
                  people
                  > truly
                  > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
                  lobbyists
                  > and
                  > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
                  problem
                  > will be
                  > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
                  worse.
                  > >
                  > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
                  > proposition.
                  > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
                  identifying
                  > its source,
                  > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
                  > states: "Congress shall
                  > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
                  the
                  > government
                  > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
                  > >
                  > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
                  corruption
                  > comes from
                  > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
                  So
                  > what do we
                  > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
                  for
                  > guidance
                  > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
                  addressing
                  > bribery,
                  > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
                  with
                  > the
                  > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
                  > regulations are
                  > > unnecessary.
                  > >
                  > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
                  > citizens, and the
                  > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
                  > that need to
                  > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
                  direction.
                  > Get rid of
                  > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
                  power
                  > of
                  > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
                  the
                  > Abramoff
                  > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
                  would be
                  > a lot
                  > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
                  > removed.
                  > >
                  > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
                  which is
                  > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
                  > accomplished
                  > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
                  character.
                  > Members
                  > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
                  the
                  > path to a
                  > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
                  of
                  > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
                  the
                  > temptation
                  > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
                  are
                  > > acceptable.
                  > >
                  > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
                  interest
                  > favoritism
                  > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
                  at
                  > stake.
                  > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
                  grown
                  > accustomed
                  > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
                  Only
                  > when the
                  > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
                  earmarks
                  > in the
                  > > budget will not solve the problem.
                  > >
                  > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
                  types
                  > are petty
                  > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
                  > Abramoffs in mere
                  > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
                  bogged
                  > down in
                  > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
                  > already, but
                  > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
                  actually
                  > will cost
                  > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
                  done
                  > with.
                  > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
                  unpredictable,
                  > because
                  > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
                  the
                  > war had
                  > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
                  bucks
                  > being
                  > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
                  > corporations.
                  > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
                  > process. And
                  > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
                  > Dissenters
                  > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
                  that a
                  > little
                  > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
                  do
                  > much to
                  > > solve.
                  > >
                  > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
                  national
                  > deficit,
                  > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
                  > allies, and
                  > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
                  > destructive
                  > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
                  entire
                  > Middle
                  > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
                  > >
                  > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
                  over
                  > the last
                  > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
                  > trillion dollars,
                  > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
                  Our
                  > total
                  > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
                  > dollars. Most
                  > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
                  system,
                  > and the new
                  > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
                  pension
                  > funds are
                  > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
                  taxpayers. We
                  > are
                  > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
                  to
                  > finance this
                  > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
                  > debtor nation
                  > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
                  hardly
                  > the way to
                  > > secure a sound economy.
                  > >
                  > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
                  > oblivious to the
                  > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
                  no
                  > resistance
                  > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
                  > nearly 2 ½
                  > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
                  > demands. The
                  > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
                  > These
                  > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
                  > tinkering with
                  > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
                  > >
                  > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
                  and
                  > members
                  > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
                  > capture a piece
                  > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
                  > effectiveness
                  > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
                  > >
                  > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
                  > morally and
                  > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
                  questioned.
                  > It is the
                  > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
                  > poor and
                  > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
                  the
                  > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
                  of
                  > all the
                  > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
                  while
                  > delaying
                  > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
                  generation.
                  > >
                  > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
                  > special
                  > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
                  > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
                  the
                  > question -
                  > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
                  > willingness to
                  > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
                  limited
                  > and may
                  > > well diminish in the future.
                  > >
                  > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
                  create
                  > huge amounts
                  > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
                  rise
                  > and call
                  > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
                  depreciated
                  > dollar don't
                  > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
                  promote
                  > the corrupt
                  > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
                  > unsophisticated buy in
                  > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
                  to
                  > another, and
                  > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
                  > central banks
                  > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
                  > counterfeiting.
                  > >
                  > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
                  from
                  > savings, and
                  > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
                  > counterfeiter has no
                  > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
                  The
                  > incentive
                  > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
                  whose
                  > people are
                  > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
                  only
                  > way we can
                  > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
                  the
                  > foreign
                  > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
                  > wealth that we
                  > > enjoy.
                  > >
                  > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
                  of
                  > illegal
                  > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
                  Mexico
                  > and
                  > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
                  our
                  > economy
                  > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
                  > education and
                  > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
                  dependent on
                  > our
                  > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
                  of
                  > debt becomes
                  > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
                  United
                  > States will
                  > > change.
                  > >
                  > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
                  use
                  > the money
                  > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
                  > corporations, and
                  > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
                  > ones at the
                  > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
                  > dollars to buy
                  > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
                  By
                  > then their
                  > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
                  > goes down.
                  > >
                  > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
                  > thirty-four
                  > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
                  > Industries go
                  > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
                  > middle class,
                  > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
                  > hopes to keep
                  > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
                  > struggle to
                  > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
                  ability to
                  > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
                  > problem: it all
                  > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
                  and
                  > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
                  the
                  > end are
                  > > already appearing.
                  > >
                  > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
                  a
                  > consequence
                  > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
                  > dollar price
                  > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
                  > increase).
                  > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
                  time-
                  > honored and
                  > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
                  55%.
                  > The
                  > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
                  > soundness of its
                  > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
                  she
                  > depreciated
                  > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
                  > downfall. That
                  > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
                  > >
                  > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
                  not
                  > yet on
                  > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
                  problem is
                  > being
                  > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
                  terms,
                  > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
                  > We'll make
                  > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
                  learn
                  > how to be
                  > > more ethical.
                  > >
                  > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
                  and
                  > hides a
                  > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
                  creation
                  > is hard to
                  > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
                  our
                  > economic,
                  > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
                  > >
                  > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
                  > (helping the
                  > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
                  to
                  > capitalize
                  > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
                  > Eventually
                  > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
                  > borrowing,
                  > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
                  that
                  > > distributes loot by majority vote.
                  > >
                  > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
                  > government
                  > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
                  > controlled and
                  > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
                  to
                  > accept our
                  > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
                  question,
                  > despite the
                  > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
                  > >
                  > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
                  in
                  > policy
                  > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
                  > lot. And
                  > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
                  > until there is
                  > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
                  > currency, and a
                  > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
                  > confidence.
                  > >
                  > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
                  over
                  > with
                  > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
                  > government and
                  > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
                  toward
                  > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
                  that
                  > creates
                  > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
                  > feed off the
                  > > corrupt system.
                  > >
                  > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
                  wealth
                  > from the
                  > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
                  the
                  > same.
                  > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
                  value
                  > of each
                  > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
                  > wealthy in the
                  > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
                  and
                  > more uneasy
                  > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
                  > >
                  > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
                  in
                  > context of
                  > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
                  > >
                  > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
                  not
                  > an
                  > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
                  will
                  > come of
                  > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
                  in
                  > our personal
                  > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
                  > around the
                  > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
                  > lobbyists
                  > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
                  > understand
                  > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
                  > petition their
                  > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
                  > pervasive
                  > > problem.
                  > >
                  > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
                  > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
                  > American people
                  > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
                  > >
                  > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
                  > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
                  > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
                  > > 4.. No more nation building;
                  > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
                  > > 6.. No more deficits;
                  > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
                  > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
                  > embarrass those
                  > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
                  current
                  > policy;
                  > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
                  unpatriotic or
                  > disloyal
                  > > to the country;
                  > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
                  budget
                  > spending
                  > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
                  > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
                  > international NGOs,
                  > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
                  > corporate
                  > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
                  > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
                  law-
                  > abiding
                  > > American citizens;
                  > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
                  liberty
                  > by
                  > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
                  tax
                  > violators,
                  > > and gun ownership.
                  > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
                  as
                  > an
                  > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
                  principle
                  > of the
                  > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
                  provide
                  > checks and
                  > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
                  judiciary)
                  > that spies
                  > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
                  wars,
                  > and
                  > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
                  to
                  > be a
                  > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
                  > >
                  > > January 19, 2006
                  > >
                  > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
                  > >
                  > > Denise
                  > >
                  > > Denise Bensusan
                  > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
                  > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
                  > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
                  > >
                  > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
                  Constitution
                  > of the
                  > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
                  the
                  > United
                  > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
                  Courts,
                  > not to
                  > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
                  pervert
                  > the
                  > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
                  >
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                  subject=Unsubscribe>
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                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >








                  Yahoo! Groups Links









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Derek
                  I didn t really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told, however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected over him. I do not think
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                    I didn't really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told,
                    however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected
                    over him.

                    I do not think we have a chance of winning the white house any time
                    soon, however, I do think that it adds to our legitimacy to run
                    somebody for the office each time. I DO, however, think that we can
                    very possibly win US House seats in certain areas, and I think that
                    Badnarik may just be in such an area to win this time.

                    I think that if we run good people like Badnarik, Russo, etc, for US
                    house seats in carefully selected areas where they have a good
                    chance of winning (like NH or Texas or Nevada), and they do a good
                    job and don't embarrass the party when they win, it will help us to
                    look more legitimate and then we can run for statewide seats like
                    Governor and US Senator and actually be competitive.

                    I also think that we need to tone down the "crazier" elements of our
                    party's positions and emphasize more the ones that more of the
                    general public will accept. The way the democrats and republicans
                    got us into this mess was a little at a time. Short of another
                    revolutionary war, or state seccession, probably the only peaceful
                    way to take it back is by incrementalization also. I would define
                    the "crazier" elements as the legalization of drugs, prostitution,
                    and polygamy. Most average Americans simply will not accept these
                    things. So why even mention them? They should not even be
                    mentioned as issues.

                    But Gold backed money, abolition of the IRS, and removing barriers
                    to entry for small businesses would all be popular causes. And I
                    did not know that Badnarik was involved with some of the "tax
                    protestor" people. I used to live in rural NC, and we had a lot of
                    tax protestors and militia members back there. Most of the tax
                    protestors went to PRISON as soon as they were caught and tried.
                    And judges do not even let them use their "unconstitutional"
                    arguments in court. So it would benefit us to tell our candidates
                    to not even use that line, and instead legislate away the IRS in
                    congress and the senate. If the gov't still insisted on a national
                    tax of some sort, it should be limited to something like a 1%
                    national sales tax, but have it capped to only 1% max by a
                    constitutional amendment. I think that would be popular.

                    Also, it wouldn't hurt us to find some well known celebrity
                    candidates to run for office, that wouldn't do something stupid and
                    embarrass us. I have read that Clint Eastwood (although he is too
                    old), and Woody Harrelson are Libertarians. Pro Wrestler Val Venis
                    (real name Sean Morey) is too, although Sean is a Canadian. Jesse
                    Ventura, even though he ran as a Reform Party candidate, espouses
                    many Libertarian beliefs. I was very happy when Jesse won the
                    governorship of Minnesota. That shows that it can be done. And
                    even if we never win the white house, if we can win enough of the
                    House and senate and state seats, we could still get a lot done and
                    send a strong message that people are tired of the police state.

                    Derek






                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                    <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Sandy,
                    >
                    > I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't
                    his family threatened the next time around or something and he
                    backed away from the race?
                    >
                    > I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution
                    and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support
                    this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.
                    >
                    > I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik)
                    in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---- Original Message -----
                    > From: Sandra Price
                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                    Direction
                    >
                    >
                    > Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP
                    for the many
                    > issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian
                    movement. Their
                    > candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression
                    they want the
                    > government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael
                    Badnarik on
                    > several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                    > Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be
                    interpreted and
                    > amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group
                    of men who
                    > believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a
                    part of the
                    > laws of America for many years under the authority of the House
                    and Senate.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done
                    through the
                    > Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be
                    dealing with
                    > many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to
                    be declared
                    > criminals.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the
                    accepted rules
                    > of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on
                    removing
                    > every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up
                    under the Bush
                    > Administration and have shown themselves incapable of
                    determining what is
                    > legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be
                    designed and run
                    > by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control
                    over our
                    > lives and will eliminate our state rights.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over
                    the authority
                    > of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S.
                    Constitution. I do not
                    > want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate
                    of
                    > Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American
                    family has
                    > the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this
                    choice taken
                    > away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a
                    choice for the
                    > mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.
                    >
                    > HHHH
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways
                    of changing
                    > what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find
                    wrong and will
                    > end up supporting chaos.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                    elections
                    > in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have
                    fallen overboard
                    > in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through
                    the crap the
                    > current parties are selling at this time.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they
                    too are
                    > floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but
                    not the way
                    > they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sandy Pricee has
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Sandra Price
                    Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael Badnarik
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                      Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                      honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                      Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                      this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                      Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                      extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                      these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                      Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                      coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                      tooth fairy.



                      I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                      recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                      on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                      The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                      breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                      tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                      when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                      enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                      writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                      (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                      petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                      For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                      people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                      HHHH

                      You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                      organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                      but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                      work to change the law.



                      Sandy



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                      Sandy,

                      I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                      threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                      race?

                      I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                      what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                      try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                      I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                      become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                      many
                      issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                      Their
                      candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                      government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                      several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                      Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                      amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                      believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                      the
                      laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                      Senate.




                      The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                      Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                      many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                      declared
                      criminals.



                      I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                      rules
                      of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                      every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                      Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                      legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                      by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                      lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                      I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                      authority
                      of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                      want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                      Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                      the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                      taken
                      away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                      the
                      mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                      HHHH



                      There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                      changing
                      what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                      will
                      end up supporting chaos.



                      Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                      in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                      overboard
                      in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                      the
                      current parties are selling at this time.



                      I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                      floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                      they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                      Sandy Pricee has



                      _____



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                      Yahoo! Groups Links










                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      _____

                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



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                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Denise Bensusan
                      Sandy said: You ve been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead but
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                        Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                        work to change the law."

                        Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                        As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                        Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                        honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                        Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                        this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                        Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                        extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                        these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                        Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                        coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                        tooth fairy.



                        I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                        recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                        on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                        The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                        breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                        tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                        when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                        enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                        writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                        (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                        petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                        For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                        people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                        HHHH

                        You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                        organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                        but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                        work to change the law.



                        Sandy



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                        Sandy,

                        I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                        threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                        race?

                        I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                        what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                        try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                        I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                        become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                        ---- Original Message -----
                        From: Sandra Price
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                        Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                        many
                        issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                        Their
                        candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                        government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                        several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                        Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                        amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                        believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                        the
                        laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                        Senate.




                        The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                        Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                        many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                        declared
                        criminals.



                        I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                        rules
                        of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                        every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                        Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                        legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                        by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                        lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                        I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                        authority
                        of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                        want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                        Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                        the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                        taken
                        away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                        the
                        mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                        HHHH



                        There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                        changing
                        what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                        will
                        end up supporting chaos.



                        Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                        in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                        overboard
                        in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                        the
                        current parties are selling at this time.



                        I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                        floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                        they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                        Sandy Pricee has



                        _____



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        Yahoo! Groups Links










                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        _____

                        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                        * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                        * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                        <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



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                        Yahoo! Groups Links








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sandra Price
                        I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                          I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                          believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                          you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                          will be implicated.



                          Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                          pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                          Sandy

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                          Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                          his
                          organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                          but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                          work to change the law."

                          Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                          I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                          is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                          As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                          Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                          them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                          speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                          Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sandra Price
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                          Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                          and
                          honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                          Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                          on
                          this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                          prison.
                          Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                          extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                          with
                          these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                          Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                          coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                          tooth fairy.



                          I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                          recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                          fringe
                          on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                          silly.
                          The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                          breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                          tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                          1970
                          when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                          enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                          the
                          writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                          Price
                          (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                          petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                          For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                          the
                          people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                          fine.
                          HHHH

                          You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                          organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                          but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                          work to change the law.



                          Sandy



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                          Sandy,

                          I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                          family
                          threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                          race?

                          I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                          that's
                          what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                          try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                          I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                          to
                          become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                          ---- Original Message -----
                          From: Sandra Price
                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                          Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                          many
                          issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                          Their
                          candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                          the
                          government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                          several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                          Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                          and
                          amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                          who
                          believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                          the
                          laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                          Senate.




                          The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                          the
                          Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                          with
                          many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                          declared
                          criminals.



                          I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                          rules
                          of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                          every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                          Bush
                          Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                          is
                          legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                          run
                          by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                          lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                          I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                          authority
                          of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                          not
                          want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                          Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                          has
                          the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                          taken
                          away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                          the
                          mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                          HHHH



                          There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                          changing
                          what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                          will
                          end up supporting chaos.



                          Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                          elections
                          in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                          overboard
                          in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                          the
                          current parties are selling at this time.



                          I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                          floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                          way
                          they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                          Sandy Pricee has



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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Denise Bensusan
                          Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                            Good points Sandy!

                            Thanks
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Sandra Price
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
                            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                            I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                            believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                            you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                            will be implicated.



                            Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                            pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                            Sandy

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                            Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                            his
                            organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                            but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                            work to change the law."

                            Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                            I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                            is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                            As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                            Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                            them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                            speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                            Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Sandra Price
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                            Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                            and
                            honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                            Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                            on
                            this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                            prison.
                            Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                            extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                            with
                            these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                            Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                            coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                            tooth fairy.



                            I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                            recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                            fringe
                            on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                            silly.
                            The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                            breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                            tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                            1970
                            when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                            enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                            the
                            writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                            Price
                            (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                            petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                            For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                            the
                            people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                            fine.
                            HHHH

                            You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                            organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                            but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                            work to change the law.



                            Sandy



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                            Sandy,

                            I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                            family
                            threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                            race?

                            I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                            that's
                            what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                            try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                            I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                            to
                            become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                            ---- Original Message -----
                            From: Sandra Price
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                            Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                            many
                            issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                            Their
                            candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                            the
                            government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                            several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                            Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                            and
                            amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                            who
                            believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                            the
                            laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                            Senate.




                            The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                            the
                            Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                            with
                            many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                            declared
                            criminals.



                            I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                            rules
                            of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                            every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                            Bush
                            Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                            is
                            legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                            run
                            by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                            lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                            I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                            authority
                            of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                            not
                            want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                            Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                            has
                            the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                            taken
                            away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                            the
                            mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                            HHHH



                            There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                            changing
                            what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                            will
                            end up supporting chaos.



                            Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                            elections
                            in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                            overboard
                            in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                            the
                            current parties are selling at this time.



                            I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                            floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                            way
                            they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                            Sandy Pricee has



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                          • Derek
                            Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                              Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                              will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                              people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                              wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                              know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                              The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                              full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                              Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                              Derek



                              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                              <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                              you to join his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law."
                              >
                              > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                              stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                              premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                              >
                              > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                              different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                              unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                              they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                              least for today...LOL
                              >
                              > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Sandra Price
                              > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                              Direction
                              >
                              >
                              > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                              legitimately and
                              > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                              Michael
                              > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                              inside source on
                              > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                              are in prison.
                              > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                              time for
                              > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                              signs up with
                              > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                              near future.
                              > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                              close to
                              > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                              believing in the
                              > tooth fairy.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                              I do
                              > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                              gold fringe
                              > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                              stupid silly.
                              > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                              Simply
                              > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                              prison. I'm
                              > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                              tried it in 1970
                              > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                              would gather
                              > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                              voters. One of the
                              > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                              Oliver Ray Price
                              > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                              of this
                              > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                              California and the
                              > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                              system was fine.
                              > HHHH
                              >
                              > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                              his
                              > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                              go ahead
                              > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                              direction and
                              > work to change the law.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Sandy
                            • Derek
                              No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                                No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
                                at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
                                college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
                                of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
                                only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
                                or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
                                is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
                                we barely have time for anything but studies.

                                I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
                                class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
                                registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
                                about the other 2 guys.

                                I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
                                have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
                                thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
                                could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
                                then either.

                                But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
                                are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
                                establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
                                lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

                                If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
                                were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
                                liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
                                think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

                                How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
                                you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
                                make it worth it?

                                Derek



                                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Derek,
                                >
                                > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
                                >
                                >
                                > Denise
                              • Sandra Price
                                You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                  You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                  if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                  Sandy



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                  Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                  will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                  people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                  wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                  know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                  The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                  full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                  Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                  Derek



                                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                  <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                  you to join his
                                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                  go ahead
                                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                  direction and
                                  > work to change the law."
                                  >
                                  > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                  stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                  premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                  >
                                  > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                  different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                  unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                  they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                  least for today...LOL
                                  >
                                  > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Sandra Price
                                  > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                  > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                  Direction
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                  legitimately and
                                  > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                  Michael
                                  > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                  inside source on
                                  > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                  are in prison.
                                  > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                  time for
                                  > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                  signs up with
                                  > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                  near future.
                                  > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                  close to
                                  > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                  believing in the
                                  > tooth fairy.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                  I do
                                  > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                  gold fringe
                                  > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                  stupid silly.
                                  > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                  Simply
                                  > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                  prison. I'm
                                  > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                  tried it in 1970
                                  > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                  would gather
                                  > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                  voters. One of the
                                  > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                  Oliver Ray Price
                                  > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                  of this
                                  > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                  California and the
                                  > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                  system was fine.
                                  > HHHH
                                  >
                                  > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                  his
                                  > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                  go ahead
                                  > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                  direction and
                                  > work to change the law.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sandy







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                                • Denise Bensusan
                                  Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                    Sandy,

                                    Have you been to the FSP site?

                                    http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                    It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                    Mo offense intended of course....

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Sandra Price
                                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                    You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                    if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                    Sandy



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                    Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                    Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                    will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                    people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                    wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                    know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                    The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                    full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                    Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                    Derek



                                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                    <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                    you to join his
                                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                    go ahead
                                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                    direction and
                                    > work to change the law."
                                    >
                                    > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                    stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                    premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                    >
                                    > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                    different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                    unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                    they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                    least for today...LOL
                                    >
                                    > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Sandra Price
                                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                    > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                    Direction
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                    legitimately and
                                    > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                    Michael
                                    > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                    inside source on
                                    > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                    are in prison.
                                    > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                    time for
                                    > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                    signs up with
                                    > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                    near future.
                                    > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                    close to
                                    > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                    believing in the
                                    > tooth fairy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                    I do
                                    > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                    gold fringe
                                    > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                    stupid silly.
                                    > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                    Simply
                                    > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                    prison. I'm
                                    > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                    tried it in 1970
                                    > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                    would gather
                                    > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                    voters. One of the
                                    > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                    Oliver Ray Price
                                    > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                    of this
                                    > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                    California and the
                                    > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                    system was fine.
                                    > HHHH
                                    >
                                    > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                    his
                                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                    go ahead
                                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                    direction and
                                    > work to change the law.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sandy







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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Sandra Price
                                    Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                      Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                                      I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                                      the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                                      am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                                      for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                                      there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                                      I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                                      check the FSP later on.



                                      Sandy



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                      Sandy,

                                      Have you been to the FSP site?

                                      http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                      It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                                      support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                                      wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                      Mo offense intended of course....

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Sandra Price
                                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                      You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                      if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                      Sandy



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                      Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                      will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                      people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                      wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                      know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                      The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                      full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                      Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                      Derek



                                      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                      <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                      you to join his
                                      > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                      go ahead
                                      > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                      direction and
                                      > work to change the law."
                                      >
                                      > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                      stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                      premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                      >
                                      > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                      different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                      unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                      they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                      least for today...LOL
                                      >
                                      > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Sandra Price
                                      > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                      > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                      Direction
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                      legitimately and
                                      > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                      Michael
                                      > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                      inside source on
                                      > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                      are in prison.
                                      > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                      time for
                                      > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                      signs up with
                                      > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                      near future.
                                      > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                      close to
                                      > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                      believing in the
                                      > tooth fairy.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                      I do
                                      > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                      gold fringe
                                      > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                      stupid silly.
                                      > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                      Simply
                                      > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                      prison. I'm
                                      > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                      tried it in 1970
                                      > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                      would gather
                                      > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                      voters. One of the
                                      > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                      Oliver Ray Price
                                      > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                      of this
                                      > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                      California and the
                                      > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                      system was fine.
                                      > HHHH
                                      >
                                      > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                      his
                                      > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                      go ahead
                                      > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                      direction and
                                      > work to change the law.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sandy







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