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RE: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction

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  • Sandra Price
    Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!! Sandy Price ... From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
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      Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!

      Sandy Price

      -----Original Message-----
      From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
      Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
      To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
      Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction

      Forwarded for your interest:

      Searching for a New Direction

      by Ron Paul
      by Ron Paul



      Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006

      The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington scandal
      ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than Koreagate;
      bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome. Possibly so.
      It’s certainly serious and significant.

      It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with the mess.
      If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting requirements, and
      stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured we mean
      business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of Congress. It is
      argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
      positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the crisis of
      confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be well. But it’s
      not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of the
      iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse to
      properly identify and deal with.

      It’s been suggested we need to change course and correct the way Congress is
      run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes about what
      role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won’t do much to
      solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without addressing the
      immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders and writing
      more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve nothing.

      Could it be that we’re all looking in the wrong places for a solution to
      recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government? Perhaps some of
      us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
      deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how miserably corrupt
      the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of denial.
      But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals more and
      more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and to what
      degree the American people have become indebted by the totally irresponsible
      spending habits of the U.S. Congress – as encouraged by successive
      administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the recipients of
      the largesse.

      This system of government is coming to an end – a fact that significantly
      contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially those who
      pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system that has
      evolved over the decades.

      Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant outcry over
      a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows poorer and
      more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
      hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that master the
      system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones who truly
      benefit.

      The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the dependency on
      government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself as the
      crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new leadership are
      mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.

      There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows itself to
      fall into such an ethical and financial mess.

      One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our serious
      misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders detested
      democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early documents. Today,
      most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing life,
      property, and dollars to force “democracy” on a country 6,000 miles away.
      This tells us how little opposition there is to “democracy.” No one
      questions the principle that a majority electorate should be allowed to rule
      the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.

      Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion that a
      majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot confiscated
      from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally and
      constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it’s no wonder a
      system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed. Add this to
      the military industrial complex that developed over the decades due to a
      foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention, and we
      shouldn’t wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn the tricks
      of the lobbying trade – and why former members of Congress and their aides
      become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more lucrative
      than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the process invites
      moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger because of the
      deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always generates.

      Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
      unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people truly
      believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists and
      increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem will be
      ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.

      Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary proposition.
      If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying its source,
      the problem persists. The First amendment clearly states: “Congress shall
      make no laws respecting…the right of the people…to petition the government
      for a redress of grievances.” That means NO law!

      The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption comes from
      our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So what do we
      do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for guidance
      as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing bribery,
      theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with the
      criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and regulations are
      unnecessary.

      The theft that the federal government commits against its citizens, and the
      power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes that need to
      be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction. Get rid of
      the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power of
      government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the Abramoff
      types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be a lot
      less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be removed.

      Even under today’s flawed system of democratic government, which is
      dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be accomplished
      if government attracted men and women of good will and character. Members
      could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the path to a
      lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
      immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the temptation
      as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
      acceptable.

      Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest favoritism
      will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at stake.
      Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown accustomed
      to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only when the
      trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks in the
      budget will not solve the problem.

      Comparing the current scandal to the “big” one, the Abramoff types are petty
      thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the Abramoffs in mere
      tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we’re bogged down in
      6,000 miles from our shores. We’ve spent 300 billion dollars already, but
      Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually will cost
      between one and two trillion dollars when it’s all over and done with.
      That’s trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable, because
      we may be in Iraq another year or ten – who knows? Considering the war had
      nothing to do with our national security, we’re talking big bucks being
      wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American corporations.
      Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the process. And
      it’s all done in the name of patriotism and national security. Dissenters
      are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a little
      tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won’t do much to
      solve.

      Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national deficit,
      undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our allies, and
      exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our destructive
      occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire Middle
      East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.

      The system of special interest government that has evolved over the last
      several decades has given us a national debt of over eight trillion dollars,
      a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our total
      obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion dollars. Most
      people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system, and the new
      prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension funds are
      now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We are
      borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to finance this
      extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international debtor nation
      in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly the way to
      secure a sound economy.

      Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains oblivious to the
      financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no resistance
      whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends nearly 2 ½
      trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone’s demands. The
      system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives. These
      problems can’t be addressed with token leadership changes and tinkering with
      the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.

      As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and members
      of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to capture a piece
      of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of effectiveness
      that guarantees a member’s re-election.

      The biggest rip-off of all – the paper money system that is morally and
      economically equivalent to counterfeiting – is never questioned. It is the
      deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting poor and
      middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
      deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of all the
      special interests – left and right, welfare and warfare – while delaying
      payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.

      The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential special
      interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it’s
      accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the question –
      and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their willingness to
      loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited and may
      well diminish in the future.

      But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create huge amounts
      of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise and call
      a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated dollar don’t
      understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote the corrupt
      system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the unsophisticated buy in
      as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to another, and
      it’s all related to the system that allows politicians and the central banks
      to create money out of thin air. It’s literally legalized counterfeiting.

      Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from savings, and
      Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A counterfeiter has no
      incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The incentive
      for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose people are
      willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only way we can
      continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the foreign
      governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of wealth that we
      enjoy.

      The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of illegal
      immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico and
      Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our economy
      offers. However, the social services they receive, including education and
      medical benefits – as well as the jobs they get – are dependent on our
      perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of debt becomes
      excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United States will
      change.

      The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use the money
      early – governments, politicians, bankers, international corporations, and
      the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the ones at the
      end of the money chain – the people forced to use depreciated dollars to buy
      urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By then their
      money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living goes down.

      The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past thirty-four
      years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure. Industries go
      offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the middle class,
      and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress hopes to keep
      up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we struggle to
      hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
      manufacture new dollars without restraint. There’s only one problem: it all
      depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
      purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the end are
      already appearing.

      During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a consequence
      of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The dollar price
      of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 % increase).
      This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-honored and
      reliable measurement of a nation’s currency, by an astounding 55%. The
      long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the soundness of its
      currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she depreciated
      her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome’s downfall. That
      is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.

      Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it’s not yet on
      Washington’s radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is being
      made. Instead, we’ll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
      “petitioners to redress their grievances” fill out more forms. We’ll make
      government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn how to be
      more ethical.

      A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and hides a
      lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation is hard to
      destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our economic,
      monetary, and political system is not accomplished.

      Whether government programs are promoted for “good” causes (helping the
      poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to capitalize
      on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined. Eventually
      nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits, borrowing,
      printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
      distributes loot by majority vote.

      Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on government
      handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely controlled and
      regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to accept our
      role as world policemen and nation builder with little question, despite the
      bad results and an inability to pay the bills.

      The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in policy
      needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a lot. And
      unfortunately it’s not on the horizon. It probably won’t come until there is
      a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world currency, and a
      return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore confidence.

      The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over with
      grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more government and
      congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
      eliminating the greatest of all frauds – printing press money that creates
      the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who feed off the
      corrupt system.

      Counterfeiting money never creates wealth – it only steals wealth from the
      unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the same.
      Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value of each
      existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country wealthy in the
      long run. Today it’s obvious our country is becoming poorer and more uneasy
      as our jobs and capital go overseas.

      The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in context of
      the entire system that encourages corruption.

      If it’s seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not an
      expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will come of
      it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in our personal
      lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations around the
      world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where lobbyists
      thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we understand
      that undermining the First amendment right of the people to petition their
      government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and pervasive
      problem.

      If we’re inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
      consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the American people
      who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:

      1.. No more “No Child Left Behind” legislation;
      2.. No more prescription drug programs;
      3.. No more undeclared wars;
      4.. No more nation building;
      5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
      6.. No more deficits;
      7.. Cut spending – everywhere;
      8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to embarrass those
      who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current policy;
      9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or disloyal
      to the country;
      10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget spending
      and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
      11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid, international NGOs,
      defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich corporate
      farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
      12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-abiding
      American citizens;
      13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty by
      curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax violators,
      and gun ownership.
      Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as an
      independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle of the
      separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide checks and
      balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary) that spies
      on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars, and
      enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to be a
      rubber stamp. It’s time for a new direction.

      January 19, 2006

      Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

      Denise

      Denise Bensusan
      SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
      A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
      http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/

      “Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution of the
      United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the United
      States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts, not to
      overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the
      Constitution.” - Abraham Lincoln

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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    • Derek
      Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end of this term by Jim Kolbe
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
        who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
        of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
        a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
        could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
        too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
        shenanigans.

        Derek Williams




        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
        >
        > Sandy Price
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
        Bensusan
        > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
        > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
        > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
        >
        > Forwarded for your interest:
        >
        > Searching for a New Direction
        >
        > by Ron Paul
        > by Ron Paul
        >
        >
        >
        > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
        >
        > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
        scandal
        > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
        Koreagate;
        > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
        Possibly so.
        > It's certainly serious and significant.
        >
        > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
        the mess.
        > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
        requirements, and
        > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
        we mean
        > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
        Congress. It is
        > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
        > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
        crisis of
        > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
        well. But it's
        > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
        the
        > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
        to
        > properly identify and deal with.
        >
        > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
        Congress is
        > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
        about what
        > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
        do much to
        > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
        addressing the
        > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
        and writing
        > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
        nothing.
        >
        > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
        solution to
        > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
        Perhaps some of
        > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
        > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
        miserably corrupt
        > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
        denial.
        > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
        more and
        > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
        to what
        > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
        irresponsible
        > spending habits of the U.S. Congress – as encouraged by successive
        > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
        recipients of
        > the largesse.
        >
        > This system of government is coming to an end – a fact that
        significantly
        > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
        those who
        > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
        that has
        > evolved over the decades.
        >
        > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
        outcry over
        > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
        poorer and
        > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
        > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
        master the
        > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
        who truly
        > benefit.
        >
        > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
        dependency on
        > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
        as the
        > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
        leadership are
        > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
        >
        > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
        itself to
        > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
        >
        > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
        serious
        > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
        detested
        > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
        documents. Today,
        > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
        life,
        > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
        miles away.
        > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
        > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
        allowed to rule
        > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
        >
        > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
        that a
        > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
        confiscated
        > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
        and
        > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
        wonder a
        > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
        Add this to
        > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
        due to a
        > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
        and we
        > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
        the tricks
        > of the lobbying trade – and why former members of Congress and
        their aides
        > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
        lucrative
        > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
        process invites
        > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
        because of the
        > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
        generates.
        >
        > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
        > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
        truly
        > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
        and
        > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
        will be
        > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
        >
        > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
        proposition.
        > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
        its source,
        > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
        states: "Congress shall
        > make no laws respecting…the right of the people…to petition the
        government
        > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
        >
        > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
        comes from
        > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
        what do we
        > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
        guidance
        > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
        bribery,
        > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
        the
        > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
        regulations are
        > unnecessary.
        >
        > The theft that the federal government commits against its
        citizens, and the
        > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
        that need to
        > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
        Get rid of
        > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
        of
        > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
        Abramoff
        > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
        a lot
        > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
        removed.
        >
        > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
        > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
        accomplished
        > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
        Members
        > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
        path to a
        > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
        > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
        temptation
        > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
        > acceptable.
        >
        > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
        favoritism
        > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
        stake.
        > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
        accustomed
        > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
        when the
        > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
        in the
        > budget will not solve the problem.
        >
        > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
        are petty
        > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
        Abramoffs in mere
        > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
        down in
        > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
        already, but
        > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
        will cost
        > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
        with.
        > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
        because
        > we may be in Iraq another year or ten – who knows? Considering the
        war had
        > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
        being
        > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
        corporations.
        > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
        process. And
        > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
        Dissenters
        > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
        little
        > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
        much to
        > solve.
        >
        > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
        deficit,
        > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
        allies, and
        > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
        destructive
        > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
        Middle
        > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
        >
        > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
        the last
        > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
        trillion dollars,
        > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
        total
        > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
        dollars. Most
        > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
        and the new
        > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
        funds are
        > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
        are
        > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
        finance this
        > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
        debtor nation
        > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
        the way to
        > secure a sound economy.
        >
        > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
        oblivious to the
        > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
        resistance
        > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
        nearly 2 ½
        > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
        demands. The
        > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
        These
        > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
        tinkering with
        > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
        >
        > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
        members
        > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
        capture a piece
        > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
        effectiveness
        > that guarantees a member's re-election.
        >
        > The biggest rip-off of all – the paper money system that is
        morally and
        > economically equivalent to counterfeiting – is never questioned.
        It is the
        > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
        poor and
        > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
        > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
        all the
        > special interests – left and right, welfare and warfare – while
        delaying
        > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
        >
        > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
        special
        > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
        > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
        question –
        > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
        willingness to
        > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
        and may
        > well diminish in the future.
        >
        > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
        huge amounts
        > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
        and call
        > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
        dollar don't
        > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
        the corrupt
        > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
        unsophisticated buy in
        > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
        another, and
        > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
        central banks
        > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
        counterfeiting.
        >
        > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
        savings, and
        > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
        counterfeiter has no
        > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
        incentive
        > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
        people are
        > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
        way we can
        > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
        foreign
        > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
        wealth that we
        > enjoy.
        >
        > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
        illegal
        > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
        and
        > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
        economy
        > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
        education and
        > medical benefits – as well as the jobs they get – are dependent on
        our
        > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
        debt becomes
        > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
        States will
        > change.
        >
        > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
        the money
        > early – governments, politicians, bankers, international
        corporations, and
        > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
        ones at the
        > end of the money chain – the people forced to use depreciated
        dollars to buy
        > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
        then their
        > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
        goes down.
        >
        > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
        thirty-four
        > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
        Industries go
        > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
        middle class,
        > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
        hopes to keep
        > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
        struggle to
        > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
        > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
        problem: it all
        > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
        > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
        end are
        > already appearing.
        >
        > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
        consequence
        > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
        dollar price
        > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
        increase).
        > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
        honored and
        > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
        The
        > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
        soundness of its
        > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
        depreciated
        > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
        downfall. That
        > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
        >
        > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
        yet on
        > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
        being
        > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
        > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
        We'll make
        > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
        how to be
        > more ethical.
        >
        > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
        hides a
        > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
        is hard to
        > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
        economic,
        > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
        >
        > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
        (helping the
        > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
        capitalize
        > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
        Eventually
        > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
        borrowing,
        > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
        > distributes loot by majority vote.
        >
        > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
        government
        > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
        controlled and
        > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
        accept our
        > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
        despite the
        > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
        >
        > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
        policy
        > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
        lot. And
        > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
        until there is
        > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
        currency, and a
        > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
        confidence.
        >
        > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
        with
        > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
        government and
        > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
        > eliminating the greatest of all frauds – printing press money that
        creates
        > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
        feed off the
        > corrupt system.
        >
        > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth – it only steals wealth
        from the
        > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
        same.
        > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
        of each
        > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
        wealthy in the
        > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
        more uneasy
        > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
        >
        > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
        context of
        > the entire system that encourages corruption.
        >
        > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
        an
        > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
        come of
        > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
        our personal
        > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
        around the
        > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
        lobbyists
        > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
        understand
        > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
        petition their
        > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
        pervasive
        > problem.
        >
        > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
        > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
        American people
        > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
        >
        > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
        > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
        > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
        > 4.. No more nation building;
        > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
        > 6.. No more deficits;
        > 7.. Cut spending – everywhere;
        > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
        embarrass those
        > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
        policy;
        > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
        disloyal
        > to the country;
        > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
        spending
        > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
        > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
        international NGOs,
        > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
        corporate
        > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
        > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
        abiding
        > American citizens;
        > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
        by
        > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
        violators,
        > and gun ownership.
        > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
        an
        > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
        of the
        > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
        checks and
        > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
        that spies
        > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
        and
        > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
        be a
        > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
        >
        > January 19, 2006
        >
        > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
        >
        > Denise
        >
        > Denise Bensusan
        > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
        > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
        > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
        >
        > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
        of the
        > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
        United
        > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
        not to
        > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
        the
        > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Denise Bensusan
        Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with. ... From: Derek To:
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Derek
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
          Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


          Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
          who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
          of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
          a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
          could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
          too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
          shenanigans.

          Derek Williams




          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
          >
          > Sandy Price
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
          Bensusan
          > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
          > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
          > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
          >
          > Forwarded for your interest:
          >
          > Searching for a New Direction
          >
          > by Ron Paul
          > by Ron Paul
          >
          >
          >
          > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
          >
          > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
          scandal
          > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
          Koreagate;
          > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
          Possibly so.
          > It's certainly serious and significant.
          >
          > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
          the mess.
          > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
          requirements, and
          > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
          we mean
          > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
          Congress. It is
          > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
          > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
          crisis of
          > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
          well. But it's
          > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
          the
          > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
          to
          > properly identify and deal with.
          >
          > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
          Congress is
          > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
          about what
          > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
          do much to
          > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
          addressing the
          > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
          and writing
          > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
          nothing.
          >
          > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
          solution to
          > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
          Perhaps some of
          > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
          > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
          miserably corrupt
          > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
          denial.
          > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
          more and
          > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
          to what
          > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
          irresponsible
          > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by successive
          > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
          recipients of
          > the largesse.
          >
          > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
          significantly
          > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
          those who
          > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
          that has
          > evolved over the decades.
          >
          > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
          outcry over
          > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
          poorer and
          > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
          > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
          master the
          > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
          who truly
          > benefit.
          >
          > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
          dependency on
          > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
          as the
          > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
          leadership are
          > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
          >
          > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
          itself to
          > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
          >
          > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
          serious
          > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
          detested
          > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
          documents. Today,
          > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
          life,
          > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
          miles away.
          > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
          > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
          allowed to rule
          > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
          >
          > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
          that a
          > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
          confiscated
          > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
          and
          > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
          wonder a
          > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
          Add this to
          > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
          due to a
          > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
          and we
          > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
          the tricks
          > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
          their aides
          > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
          lucrative
          > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
          process invites
          > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
          because of the
          > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
          generates.
          >
          > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
          > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
          truly
          > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
          and
          > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
          will be
          > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
          >
          > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
          proposition.
          > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
          its source,
          > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
          states: "Congress shall
          > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition the
          government
          > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
          >
          > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
          comes from
          > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
          what do we
          > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
          guidance
          > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
          bribery,
          > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
          the
          > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
          regulations are
          > unnecessary.
          >
          > The theft that the federal government commits against its
          citizens, and the
          > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
          that need to
          > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
          Get rid of
          > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
          of
          > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
          Abramoff
          > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
          a lot
          > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
          removed.
          >
          > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
          > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
          accomplished
          > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
          Members
          > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
          path to a
          > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
          > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
          temptation
          > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
          > acceptable.
          >
          > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
          favoritism
          > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
          stake.
          > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
          accustomed
          > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
          when the
          > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
          in the
          > budget will not solve the problem.
          >
          > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
          are petty
          > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
          Abramoffs in mere
          > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
          down in
          > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
          already, but
          > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
          will cost
          > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
          with.
          > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
          because
          > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering the
          war had
          > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
          being
          > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
          corporations.
          > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
          process. And
          > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
          Dissenters
          > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
          little
          > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
          much to
          > solve.
          >
          > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
          deficit,
          > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
          allies, and
          > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
          destructive
          > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
          Middle
          > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
          >
          > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
          the last
          > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
          trillion dollars,
          > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
          total
          > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
          dollars. Most
          > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
          and the new
          > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
          funds are
          > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
          are
          > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
          finance this
          > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
          debtor nation
          > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
          the way to
          > secure a sound economy.
          >
          > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
          oblivious to the
          > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
          resistance
          > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
          nearly 2 ½
          > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
          demands. The
          > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
          These
          > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
          tinkering with
          > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
          >
          > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
          members
          > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
          capture a piece
          > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
          effectiveness
          > that guarantees a member's re-election.
          >
          > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
          morally and
          > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never questioned.
          It is the
          > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
          poor and
          > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
          > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
          all the
          > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare - while
          delaying
          > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
          >
          > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
          special
          > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
          > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
          question -
          > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
          willingness to
          > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
          and may
          > well diminish in the future.
          >
          > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
          huge amounts
          > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
          and call
          > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
          dollar don't
          > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
          the corrupt
          > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
          unsophisticated buy in
          > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
          another, and
          > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
          central banks
          > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
          counterfeiting.
          >
          > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
          savings, and
          > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
          counterfeiter has no
          > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
          incentive
          > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
          people are
          > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
          way we can
          > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
          foreign
          > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
          wealth that we
          > enjoy.
          >
          > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
          illegal
          > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
          and
          > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
          economy
          > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
          education and
          > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are dependent on
          our
          > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
          debt becomes
          > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
          States will
          > change.
          >
          > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
          the money
          > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
          corporations, and
          > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
          ones at the
          > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
          dollars to buy
          > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
          then their
          > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
          goes down.
          >
          > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
          thirty-four
          > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
          Industries go
          > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
          middle class,
          > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
          hopes to keep
          > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
          struggle to
          > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
          > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
          problem: it all
          > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
          > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
          end are
          > already appearing.
          >
          > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
          consequence
          > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
          dollar price
          > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
          increase).
          > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
          honored and
          > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
          The
          > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
          soundness of its
          > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
          depreciated
          > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
          downfall. That
          > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
          >
          > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
          yet on
          > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
          being
          > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
          > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
          We'll make
          > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
          how to be
          > more ethical.
          >
          > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
          hides a
          > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
          is hard to
          > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
          economic,
          > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
          >
          > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
          (helping the
          > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
          capitalize
          > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
          Eventually
          > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
          borrowing,
          > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
          > distributes loot by majority vote.
          >
          > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
          government
          > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
          controlled and
          > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
          accept our
          > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
          despite the
          > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
          >
          > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
          policy
          > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
          lot. And
          > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
          until there is
          > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
          currency, and a
          > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
          confidence.
          >
          > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
          with
          > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
          government and
          > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
          > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money that
          creates
          > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
          feed off the
          > corrupt system.
          >
          > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals wealth
          from the
          > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
          same.
          > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
          of each
          > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
          wealthy in the
          > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
          more uneasy
          > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
          >
          > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
          context of
          > the entire system that encourages corruption.
          >
          > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
          an
          > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
          come of
          > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
          our personal
          > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
          around the
          > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
          lobbyists
          > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
          understand
          > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
          petition their
          > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
          pervasive
          > problem.
          >
          > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
          > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
          American people
          > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
          >
          > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
          > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
          > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
          > 4.. No more nation building;
          > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
          > 6.. No more deficits;
          > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
          > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
          embarrass those
          > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
          policy;
          > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
          disloyal
          > to the country;
          > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
          spending
          > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
          > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
          international NGOs,
          > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
          corporate
          > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
          > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
          abiding
          > American citizens;
          > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
          by
          > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
          violators,
          > and gun ownership.
          > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
          an
          > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
          of the
          > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
          checks and
          > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
          that spies
          > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
          and
          > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
          be a
          > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
          >
          > January 19, 2006
          >
          > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
          >
          > Denise
          >
          > Denise Bensusan
          > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
          > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
          > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
          >
          > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
          of the
          > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
          United
          > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
          not to
          > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
          the
          > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >







          Yahoo! Groups Links









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sandra Price
          Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of candidates. From
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
            Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of
            candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
            themselves. To hell with that!



            Sandy Price



            -----Original Message-----
            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
            Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



            Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that
            Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Derek
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


            Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
            who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
            of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
            a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
            could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
            too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
            shenanigans.

            Derek Williams




            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
            >
            > Sandy Price
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
            Bensusan
            > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
            > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
            > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
            >
            > Forwarded for your interest:
            >
            > Searching for a New Direction
            >
            > by Ron Paul
            > by Ron Paul
            >
            >
            >
            > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
            >
            > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
            scandal
            > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
            Koreagate;
            > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
            Possibly so.
            > It's certainly serious and significant.
            >
            > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
            the mess.
            > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
            requirements, and
            > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
            we mean
            > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
            Congress. It is
            > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
            > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
            crisis of
            > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
            well. But it's
            > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
            the
            > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
            to
            > properly identify and deal with.
            >
            > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
            Congress is
            > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
            about what
            > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
            do much to
            > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
            addressing the
            > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
            and writing
            > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
            nothing.
            >
            > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
            solution to
            > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
            Perhaps some of
            > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
            > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
            miserably corrupt
            > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
            denial.
            > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
            more and
            > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
            to what
            > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
            irresponsible
            > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by successive
            > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
            recipients of
            > the largesse.
            >
            > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
            significantly
            > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
            those who
            > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
            that has
            > evolved over the decades.
            >
            > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
            outcry over
            > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
            poorer and
            > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
            > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
            master the
            > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
            who truly
            > benefit.
            >
            > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
            dependency on
            > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
            as the
            > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
            leadership are
            > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
            >
            > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
            itself to
            > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
            >
            > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
            serious
            > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
            detested
            > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
            documents. Today,
            > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
            life,
            > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
            miles away.
            > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
            > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
            allowed to rule
            > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
            >
            > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
            that a
            > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
            confiscated
            > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
            and
            > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
            wonder a
            > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
            Add this to
            > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
            due to a
            > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
            and we
            > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
            the tricks
            > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
            their aides
            > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
            lucrative
            > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
            process invites
            > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
            because of the
            > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
            generates.
            >
            > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
            > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
            truly
            > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
            and
            > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
            will be
            > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
            >
            > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
            proposition.
            > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
            its source,
            > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
            states: "Congress shall
            > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition the
            government
            > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
            >
            > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
            comes from
            > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
            what do we
            > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
            guidance
            > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
            bribery,
            > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
            the
            > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
            regulations are
            > unnecessary.
            >
            > The theft that the federal government commits against its
            citizens, and the
            > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
            that need to
            > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
            Get rid of
            > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
            of
            > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
            Abramoff
            > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
            a lot
            > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
            removed.
            >
            > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
            > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
            accomplished
            > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
            Members
            > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
            path to a
            > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
            > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
            temptation
            > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
            > acceptable.
            >
            > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
            favoritism
            > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
            stake.
            > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
            accustomed
            > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
            when the
            > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
            in the
            > budget will not solve the problem.
            >
            > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
            are petty
            > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
            Abramoffs in mere
            > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
            down in
            > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
            already, but
            > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
            will cost
            > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
            with.
            > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
            because
            > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering the
            war had
            > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
            being
            > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
            corporations.
            > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
            process. And
            > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
            Dissenters
            > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
            little
            > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
            much to
            > solve.
            >
            > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
            deficit,
            > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
            allies, and
            > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
            destructive
            > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
            Middle
            > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
            >
            > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
            the last
            > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
            trillion dollars,
            > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
            total
            > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
            dollars. Most
            > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
            and the new
            > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
            funds are
            > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
            are
            > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
            finance this
            > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
            debtor nation
            > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
            the way to
            > secure a sound economy.
            >
            > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
            oblivious to the
            > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
            resistance
            > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
            nearly 2 ½
            > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
            demands. The
            > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
            These
            > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
            tinkering with
            > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
            >
            > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
            members
            > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
            capture a piece
            > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
            effectiveness
            > that guarantees a member's re-election.
            >
            > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
            morally and
            > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never questioned.
            It is the
            > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
            poor and
            > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
            > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
            all the
            > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare - while
            delaying
            > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
            >
            > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
            special
            > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
            > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
            question -
            > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
            willingness to
            > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
            and may
            > well diminish in the future.
            >
            > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
            huge amounts
            > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
            and call
            > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
            dollar don't
            > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
            the corrupt
            > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
            unsophisticated buy in
            > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
            another, and
            > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
            central banks
            > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
            counterfeiting.
            >
            > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
            savings, and
            > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
            counterfeiter has no
            > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
            incentive
            > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
            people are
            > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
            way we can
            > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
            foreign
            > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
            wealth that we
            > enjoy.
            >
            > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
            illegal
            > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
            and
            > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
            economy
            > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
            education and
            > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are dependent on
            our
            > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
            debt becomes
            > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
            States will
            > change.
            >
            > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
            the money
            > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
            corporations, and
            > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
            ones at the
            > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
            dollars to buy
            > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
            then their
            > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
            goes down.
            >
            > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
            thirty-four
            > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
            Industries go
            > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
            middle class,
            > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
            hopes to keep
            > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
            struggle to
            > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
            > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
            problem: it all
            > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
            > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
            end are
            > already appearing.
            >
            > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
            consequence
            > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
            dollar price
            > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
            increase).
            > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
            honored and
            > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
            The
            > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
            soundness of its
            > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
            depreciated
            > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
            downfall. That
            > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
            >
            > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
            yet on
            > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
            being
            > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
            > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
            We'll make
            > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
            how to be
            > more ethical.
            >
            > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
            hides a
            > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
            is hard to
            > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
            economic,
            > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
            >
            > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
            (helping the
            > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
            capitalize
            > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
            Eventually
            > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
            borrowing,
            > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
            > distributes loot by majority vote.
            >
            > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
            government
            > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
            controlled and
            > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
            accept our
            > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
            despite the
            > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
            >
            > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
            policy
            > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
            lot. And
            > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
            until there is
            > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
            currency, and a
            > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
            confidence.
            >
            > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
            with
            > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
            government and
            > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
            > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money that
            creates
            > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
            feed off the
            > corrupt system.
            >
            > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals wealth
            from the
            > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
            same.
            > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
            of each
            > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
            wealthy in the
            > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
            more uneasy
            > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
            >
            > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
            context of
            > the entire system that encourages corruption.
            >
            > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
            an
            > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
            come of
            > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
            our personal
            > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
            around the
            > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
            lobbyists
            > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
            understand
            > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
            petition their
            > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
            pervasive
            > problem.
            >
            > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
            > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
            American people
            > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
            >
            > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
            > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
            > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
            > 4.. No more nation building;
            > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
            > 6.. No more deficits;
            > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
            > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
            embarrass those
            > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
            policy;
            > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
            disloyal
            > to the country;
            > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
            spending
            > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
            > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
            international NGOs,
            > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
            corporate
            > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
            > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
            abiding
            > American citizens;
            > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
            by
            > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
            violators,
            > and gun ownership.
            > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
            an
            > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
            of the
            > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
            checks and
            > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
            that spies
            > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
            and
            > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
            be a
            > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
            >
            > January 19, 2006
            >
            > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
            >
            > Denise
            >
            > Denise Bensusan
            > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
            > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
            > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
            >
            > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
            of the
            > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
            United
            > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
            not to
            > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
            the
            > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >







            Yahoo! Groups Links









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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Denise Bensusan
            That seems to be the problem...we cant vote for the smaller party i.e. LP as our vote is simply wasted. I m not so sure our votes are actually counted
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              That seems to be the problem...we cant vote for the smaller party i.e. LP as our vote is simply wasted.

              I'm not so sure our votes are actually counted anyway....LOL


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sandra Price
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:50 PM
              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
              Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the choices of
              candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
              themselves. To hell with that!



              Sandy Price



              -----Original Message-----
              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
              Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



              Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too much that
              Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Derek
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


              Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone know
              who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the end
              of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time for
              a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if we
              could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be good
              too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
              shenanigans.

              Derek Williams




              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
              >
              > Sandy Price
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
              Bensusan
              > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
              > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
              > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
              >
              > Forwarded for your interest:
              >
              > Searching for a New Direction
              >
              > by Ron Paul
              > by Ron Paul
              >
              >
              >
              > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
              >
              > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest Washington
              scandal
              > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
              Koreagate;
              > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot Dome.
              Possibly so.
              > It's certainly serious and significant.
              >
              > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal with
              the mess.
              > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
              requirements, and
              > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be assured
              we mean
              > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
              Congress. It is
              > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to leadership
              > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
              crisis of
              > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
              well. But it's
              > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip of
              the
              > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we refuse
              to
              > properly identify and deal with.
              >
              > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the way
              Congress is
              > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current attitudes
              about what
              > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it won't
              do much to
              > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
              addressing the
              > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new leaders
              and writing
              > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will achieve
              nothing.
              >
              > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
              solution to
              > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
              Perhaps some of
              > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps others
              > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
              miserably corrupt
              > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a state of
              denial.
              > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal reveals
              more and
              > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how and
              to what
              > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
              irresponsible
              > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by successive
              > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
              recipients of
              > the largesse.
              >
              > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
              significantly
              > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans, especially
              those who
              > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt system
              that has
              > evolved over the decades.
              >
              > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be scant
              outcry over
              > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
              poorer and
              > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not the
              > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
              master the
              > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the ones
              who truly
              > benefit.
              >
              > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
              dependency on
              > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents itself
              as the
              > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
              leadership are
              > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
              >
              > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
              itself to
              > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
              >
              > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is our
              serious
              > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The founders
              detested
              > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
              documents. Today,
              > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
              life,
              > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
              miles away.
              > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy." No one
              > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
              allowed to rule
              > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
              >
              > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the notion
              that a
              > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse, loot
              confiscated
              > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is morally
              and
              > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
              wonder a
              > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has developed.
              Add this to
              > the military industrial complex that developed over the decades
              due to a
              > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military intervention,
              and we
              > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to learn
              the tricks
              > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
              their aides
              > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much more
              lucrative
              > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
              process invites
              > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
              because of the
              > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
              generates.
              >
              > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
              > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If people
              truly
              > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating lobbyists
              and
              > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real problem
              will be
              > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things worse.
              >
              > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
              proposition.
              > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly identifying
              its source,
              > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
              states: "Congress shall
              > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition the
              government
              > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
              >
              > The problem of special interest government that breeds corruption
              comes from
              > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place. So
              what do we
              > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it for
              guidance
              > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws addressing
              bribery,
              > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal with
              the
              > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
              regulations are
              > unnecessary.
              >
              > The theft that the federal government commits against its
              citizens, and the
              > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
              that need to
              > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new direction.
              Get rid of
              > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the power
              of
              > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and the
              Abramoff
              > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There would be
              a lot
              > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
              removed.
              >
              > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government, which is
              > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
              accomplished
              > if government attracted men and women of good will and character.
              Members
              > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject the
              path to a
              > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules of
              > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to the
              temptation
              > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards are
              > acceptable.
              >
              > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special interest
              favoritism
              > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is at
              stake.
              > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have grown
              accustomed
              > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive. Only
              when the
              > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating earmarks
              in the
              > budget will not solve the problem.
              >
              > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff types
              are petty
              > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
              Abramoffs in mere
              > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're bogged
              down in
              > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
              already, but
              > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war actually
              will cost
              > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and done
              with.
              > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is unpredictable,
              because
              > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering the
              war had
              > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big bucks
              being
              > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
              corporations.
              > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
              process. And
              > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
              Dissenters
              > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off that a
              little
              > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't do
              much to
              > solve.
              >
              > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our national
              deficit,
              > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
              allies, and
              > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
              destructive
              > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the entire
              Middle
              > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
              >
              > The system of special interest government that has evolved over
              the last
              > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
              trillion dollars,
              > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year. Our
              total
              > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
              dollars. Most
              > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare system,
              and the new
              > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private pension
              funds are
              > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American taxpayers. We
              are
              > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners to
              finance this
              > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
              debtor nation
              > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is hardly
              the way to
              > secure a sound economy.
              >
              > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
              oblivious to the
              > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering no
              resistance
              > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
              nearly 2 ½
              > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
              demands. The
              > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
              These
              > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
              tinkering with
              > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
              >
              > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests and
              members
              > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
              capture a piece
              > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
              effectiveness
              > that guarantees a member's re-election.
              >
              > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
              morally and
              > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never questioned.
              It is the
              > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
              poor and
              > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process, the
              > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands of
              all the
              > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare - while
              delaying
              > payment to another day and sometimes even to another generation.
              >
              > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
              special
              > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
              > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of the
              question -
              > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
              willingness to
              > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is limited
              and may
              > well diminish in the future.
              >
              > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and create
              huge amounts
              > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would rise
              and call
              > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a depreciated
              dollar don't
              > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit promote
              the corrupt
              > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
              unsophisticated buy in
              > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group to
              another, and
              > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
              central banks
              > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
              counterfeiting.
              >
              > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes from
              savings, and
              > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
              counterfeiter has no
              > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories. The
              incentive
              > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries whose
              people are
              > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The only
              way we can
              > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from the
              foreign
              > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
              wealth that we
              > enjoy.
              >
              > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem of
              illegal
              > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in Mexico
              and
              > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that our
              economy
              > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
              education and
              > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are dependent on
              our
              > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden of
              debt becomes
              > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the United
              States will
              > change.
              >
              > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who use
              the money
              > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
              corporations, and
              > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
              ones at the
              > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
              dollars to buy
              > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what? By
              then their
              > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
              goes down.
              >
              > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
              thirty-four
              > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
              Industries go
              > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
              middle class,
              > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
              hopes to keep
              > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
              struggle to
              > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our ability to
              > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
              problem: it all
              > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders and
              > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of the
              end are
              > already appearing.
              >
              > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as a
              consequence
              > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
              dollar price
              > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
              increase).
              > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the time-
              honored and
              > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding 55%.
              The
              > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
              soundness of its
              > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire, she
              depreciated
              > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
              downfall. That
              > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
              >
              > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's not
              yet on
              > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the problem is
              being
              > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution terms,
              > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
              We'll make
              > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can learn
              how to be
              > more ethical.
              >
              > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates and
              hides a
              > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth creation
              is hard to
              > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of our
              economic,
              > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
              >
              > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
              (helping the
              > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex to
              capitalize
              > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
              Eventually
              > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
              borrowing,
              > printing press money, and the special interest budget process that
              > distributes loot by majority vote.
              >
              > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
              government
              > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
              controlled and
              > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come to
              accept our
              > role as world policemen and nation builder with little question,
              despite the
              > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
              >
              > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes in
              policy
              > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
              lot. And
              > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
              until there is
              > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
              currency, and a
              > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
              confidence.
              >
              > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched over
              with
              > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
              government and
              > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed toward
              > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money that
              creates
              > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
              feed off the
              > corrupt system.
              >
              > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals wealth
              from the
              > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly the
              same.
              > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the value
              of each
              > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
              wealthy in the
              > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer and
              more uneasy
              > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
              >
              > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it in
              context of
              > the entire system that encourages corruption.
              >
              > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and not
              an
              > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good will
              come of
              > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes in
              our personal
              > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
              around the
              > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
              lobbyists
              > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
              understand
              > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
              petition their
              > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
              pervasive
              > problem.
              >
              > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
              > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
              American people
              > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
              >
              > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
              > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
              > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
              > 4.. No more nation building;
              > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
              > 6.. No more deficits;
              > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
              > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
              embarrass those
              > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with current
              policy;
              > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is unpatriotic or
              disloyal
              > to the country;
              > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-budget
              spending
              > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
              > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
              international NGOs,
              > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
              corporate
              > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
              > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of law-
              abiding
              > American citizens;
              > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over liberty
              by
              > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs, tax
              violators,
              > and gun ownership.
              > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act as
              an
              > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the principle
              of the
              > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to provide
              checks and
              > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating judiciary)
              that spies
              > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared wars,
              and
              > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant to
              be a
              > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
              >
              > January 19, 2006
              >
              > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
              >
              > Denise
              >
              > Denise Bensusan
              > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
              > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
              > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
              >
              > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the Constitution
              of the
              > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of the
              United
              > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts,
              not to
              > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert
              the
              > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >







              Yahoo! Groups Links









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            • Derek Williams
              I don t know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me back and tell me if I
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 22, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
                to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
                back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
                money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
                broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
                now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
                believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
                candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
                candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
                how to relate to the general public.

                I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
                had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
                office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
                fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
                one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
                is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
                Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
                majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
                bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
                don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
                good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

                Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
                keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
                elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
                on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
                need more people like these two running for office.

                I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
                such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
                manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
                one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
                arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
                pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
                training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

                Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
                regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
                (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
                their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
                their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
                Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
                salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
                this story:

                http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

                Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

                Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
                pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
                that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
                manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

                You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
                want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
                barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
                with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
                trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

                So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
                would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
                FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
                overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
                privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
                there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
                any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
                can and cannot put in their bodies.

                I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
                have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
                benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
                them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
                medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
                such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
                words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
                freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
                and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
                theirs.)

                Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
                contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
                supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
                and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
                without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
                that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
                keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
                reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
                is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
                money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
                too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
                when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
                this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
                weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
                less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
                backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
                created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
                dollar you and I work so hard for.

                Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
                state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
                accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
                so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
                inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
                this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
                do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
                advertisements?

                By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
                County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
                the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
                yet.

                These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
                issues?

                Derek








                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
                > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
                choices of
                > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
                > themselves. To hell with that!
                >
                >
                >
                > Sandy Price
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                Bensusan
                > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                >
                >
                >
                > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
                much that
                > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Derek
                > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
                > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                >
                >
                > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
                know
                > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
                end
                > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
                for
                > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
                we
                > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
                good
                > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
                > shenanigans.
                >
                > Derek Williams
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
                <s@r...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
                > >
                > > Sandy Price
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                > Bensusan
                > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
                > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
                > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
                > >
                > > Forwarded for your interest:
                > >
                > > Searching for a New Direction
                > >
                > > by Ron Paul
                > > by Ron Paul
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
                > >
                > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
                Washington
                > scandal
                > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
                > Koreagate;
                > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
                Dome.
                > Possibly so.
                > > It's certainly serious and significant.
                > >
                > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
                with
                > the mess.
                > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
                > requirements, and
                > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
                assured
                > we mean
                > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
                > Congress. It is
                > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
                leadership
                > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
                > crisis of
                > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
                > well. But it's
                > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
                of
                > the
                > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
                refuse
                > to
                > > properly identify and deal with.
                > >
                > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
                way
                > Congress is
                > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
                attitudes
                > about what
                > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
                won't
                > do much to
                > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
                > addressing the
                > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
                leaders
                > and writing
                > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
                achieve
                > nothing.
                > >
                > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
                > solution to
                > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
                > Perhaps some of
                > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
                others
                > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
                > miserably corrupt
                > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
                state of
                > denial.
                > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
                reveals
                > more and
                > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
                and
                > to what
                > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
                > irresponsible
                > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
                successive
                > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
                > recipients of
                > > the largesse.
                > >
                > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
                > significantly
                > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
                especially
                > those who
                > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
                system
                > that has
                > > evolved over the decades.
                > >
                > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
                scant
                > outcry over
                > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
                > poorer and
                > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
                the
                > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
                > master the
                > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
                ones
                > who truly
                > > benefit.
                > >
                > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
                > dependency on
                > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
                itself
                > as the
                > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
                > leadership are
                > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
                > >
                > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
                > itself to
                > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
                > >
                > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
                our
                > serious
                > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
                founders
                > detested
                > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
                > documents. Today,
                > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
                > life,
                > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
                > miles away.
                > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
                No one
                > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
                > allowed to rule
                > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
                > >
                > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
                notion
                > that a
                > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
                loot
                > confiscated
                > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
                morally
                > and
                > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
                > wonder a
                > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
                developed.
                > Add this to
                > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
                decades
                > due to a
                > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
                intervention,
                > and we
                > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
                learn
                > the tricks
                > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
                > their aides
                > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
                more
                > lucrative
                > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
                > process invites
                > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
                > because of the
                > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
                > generates.
                > >
                > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
                > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
                people
                > truly
                > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
                lobbyists
                > and
                > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
                problem
                > will be
                > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
                worse.
                > >
                > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
                > proposition.
                > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
                identifying
                > its source,
                > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
                > states: "Congress shall
                > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
                the
                > government
                > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
                > >
                > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
                corruption
                > comes from
                > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
                So
                > what do we
                > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
                for
                > guidance
                > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
                addressing
                > bribery,
                > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
                with
                > the
                > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
                > regulations are
                > > unnecessary.
                > >
                > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
                > citizens, and the
                > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
                > that need to
                > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
                direction.
                > Get rid of
                > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
                power
                > of
                > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
                the
                > Abramoff
                > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
                would be
                > a lot
                > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
                > removed.
                > >
                > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
                which is
                > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
                > accomplished
                > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
                character.
                > Members
                > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
                the
                > path to a
                > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
                of
                > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
                the
                > temptation
                > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
                are
                > > acceptable.
                > >
                > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
                interest
                > favoritism
                > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
                at
                > stake.
                > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
                grown
                > accustomed
                > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
                Only
                > when the
                > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
                earmarks
                > in the
                > > budget will not solve the problem.
                > >
                > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
                types
                > are petty
                > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
                > Abramoffs in mere
                > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
                bogged
                > down in
                > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
                > already, but
                > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
                actually
                > will cost
                > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
                done
                > with.
                > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
                unpredictable,
                > because
                > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
                the
                > war had
                > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
                bucks
                > being
                > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
                > corporations.
                > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
                > process. And
                > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
                > Dissenters
                > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
                that a
                > little
                > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
                do
                > much to
                > > solve.
                > >
                > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
                national
                > deficit,
                > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
                > allies, and
                > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
                > destructive
                > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
                entire
                > Middle
                > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
                > >
                > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
                over
                > the last
                > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
                > trillion dollars,
                > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
                Our
                > total
                > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
                > dollars. Most
                > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
                system,
                > and the new
                > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
                pension
                > funds are
                > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
                taxpayers. We
                > are
                > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
                to
                > finance this
                > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
                > debtor nation
                > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
                hardly
                > the way to
                > > secure a sound economy.
                > >
                > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
                > oblivious to the
                > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
                no
                > resistance
                > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
                > nearly 2 ½
                > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
                > demands. The
                > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
                > These
                > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
                > tinkering with
                > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
                > >
                > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
                and
                > members
                > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
                > capture a piece
                > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
                > effectiveness
                > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
                > >
                > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
                > morally and
                > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
                questioned.
                > It is the
                > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
                > poor and
                > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
                the
                > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
                of
                > all the
                > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
                while
                > delaying
                > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
                generation.
                > >
                > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
                > special
                > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
                > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
                the
                > question -
                > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
                > willingness to
                > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
                limited
                > and may
                > > well diminish in the future.
                > >
                > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
                create
                > huge amounts
                > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
                rise
                > and call
                > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
                depreciated
                > dollar don't
                > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
                promote
                > the corrupt
                > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
                > unsophisticated buy in
                > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
                to
                > another, and
                > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
                > central banks
                > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
                > counterfeiting.
                > >
                > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
                from
                > savings, and
                > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
                > counterfeiter has no
                > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
                The
                > incentive
                > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
                whose
                > people are
                > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
                only
                > way we can
                > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
                the
                > foreign
                > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
                > wealth that we
                > > enjoy.
                > >
                > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
                of
                > illegal
                > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
                Mexico
                > and
                > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
                our
                > economy
                > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
                > education and
                > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
                dependent on
                > our
                > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
                of
                > debt becomes
                > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
                United
                > States will
                > > change.
                > >
                > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
                use
                > the money
                > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
                > corporations, and
                > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
                > ones at the
                > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
                > dollars to buy
                > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
                By
                > then their
                > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
                > goes down.
                > >
                > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
                > thirty-four
                > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
                > Industries go
                > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
                > middle class,
                > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
                > hopes to keep
                > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
                > struggle to
                > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
                ability to
                > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
                > problem: it all
                > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
                and
                > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
                the
                > end are
                > > already appearing.
                > >
                > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
                a
                > consequence
                > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
                > dollar price
                > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
                > increase).
                > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
                time-
                > honored and
                > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
                55%.
                > The
                > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
                > soundness of its
                > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
                she
                > depreciated
                > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
                > downfall. That
                > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
                > >
                > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
                not
                > yet on
                > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
                problem is
                > being
                > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
                terms,
                > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
                > We'll make
                > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
                learn
                > how to be
                > > more ethical.
                > >
                > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
                and
                > hides a
                > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
                creation
                > is hard to
                > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
                our
                > economic,
                > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
                > >
                > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
                > (helping the
                > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
                to
                > capitalize
                > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
                > Eventually
                > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
                > borrowing,
                > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
                that
                > > distributes loot by majority vote.
                > >
                > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
                > government
                > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
                > controlled and
                > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
                to
                > accept our
                > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
                question,
                > despite the
                > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
                > >
                > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
                in
                > policy
                > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
                > lot. And
                > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
                > until there is
                > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
                > currency, and a
                > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
                > confidence.
                > >
                > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
                over
                > with
                > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
                > government and
                > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
                toward
                > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
                that
                > creates
                > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
                > feed off the
                > > corrupt system.
                > >
                > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
                wealth
                > from the
                > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
                the
                > same.
                > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
                value
                > of each
                > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
                > wealthy in the
                > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
                and
                > more uneasy
                > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
                > >
                > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
                in
                > context of
                > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
                > >
                > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
                not
                > an
                > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
                will
                > come of
                > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
                in
                > our personal
                > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
                > around the
                > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
                > lobbyists
                > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
                > understand
                > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
                > petition their
                > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
                > pervasive
                > > problem.
                > >
                > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
                > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
                > American people
                > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
                > >
                > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
                > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
                > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
                > > 4.. No more nation building;
                > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
                > > 6.. No more deficits;
                > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
                > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
                > embarrass those
                > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
                current
                > policy;
                > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
                unpatriotic or
                > disloyal
                > > to the country;
                > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
                budget
                > spending
                > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
                > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
                > international NGOs,
                > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
                > corporate
                > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
                > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
                law-
                > abiding
                > > American citizens;
                > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
                liberty
                > by
                > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
                tax
                > violators,
                > > and gun ownership.
                > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
                as
                > an
                > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
                principle
                > of the
                > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
                provide
                > checks and
                > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
                judiciary)
                > that spies
                > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
                wars,
                > and
                > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
                to
                > be a
                > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
                > >
                > > January 19, 2006
                > >
                > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
                > >
                > > Denise
                > >
                > > Denise Bensusan
                > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
                > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
                > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
                > >
                > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
                Constitution
                > of the
                > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
                the
                > United
                > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
                Courts,
                > not to
                > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
                pervert
                > the
                > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                >
                > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
                >
                >
                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                subject=Unsubscribe>
                >
                >
                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Sandra Price
                Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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                  Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
                  issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
                  candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                  government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                  several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                  Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                  amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                  believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
                  laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




                  The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                  Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                  many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
                  criminals.



                  I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
                  of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                  every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                  Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                  legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                  by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                  lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                  I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
                  of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                  want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                  Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                  the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
                  away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
                  mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                  HHHH



                  There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
                  what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
                  end up supporting chaos.



                  Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                  in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
                  in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
                  current parties are selling at this time.



                  I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                  floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                  they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                  Sandy Pricee has



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Denise Bensusan
                  Derek, Excellent insight on all counts. Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that state dept. of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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                    Derek,

                    Excellent insight on all counts.

                    Especially your statement: Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
                    state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
                    accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
                    so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
                    inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
                    this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
                    do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
                    advertisements?

                    I'm in Kingman and the Republicans run this county!!!!! Heck they run this state in my opinion. This NOT crossing party lines when making any and all decisions has gotten so ridiculous that this government has lost all legitimacy!!



                    Denise
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Derek Williams
                    To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
                    Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                    I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
                    to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
                    back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
                    money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
                    broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
                    now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
                    believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
                    candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
                    candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
                    how to relate to the general public.

                    I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
                    had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
                    office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
                    fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
                    one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
                    is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
                    Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
                    majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
                    bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
                    don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
                    good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

                    Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
                    keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
                    elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
                    on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
                    need more people like these two running for office.

                    I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
                    such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
                    manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
                    one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
                    arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
                    pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
                    training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

                    Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
                    regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
                    (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
                    their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
                    their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
                    Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
                    salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
                    this story:

                    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

                    Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

                    Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
                    pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
                    that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
                    manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

                    You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
                    want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
                    barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
                    with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
                    trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

                    So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
                    would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
                    FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
                    overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
                    privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
                    there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
                    any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
                    can and cannot put in their bodies.

                    I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
                    have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
                    benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
                    them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
                    medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
                    such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
                    words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
                    freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
                    and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
                    theirs.)

                    Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
                    contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
                    supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
                    and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
                    without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
                    that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
                    keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
                    reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
                    is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
                    money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
                    too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
                    when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
                    this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
                    weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
                    less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
                    backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
                    created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
                    dollar you and I work so hard for.

                    Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
                    state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
                    accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
                    so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
                    inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
                    this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
                    do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
                    advertisements?

                    By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
                    County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
                    the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
                    yet.

                    These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
                    issues?

                    Derek








                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
                    > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
                    choices of
                    > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
                    > themselves. To hell with that!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sandy Price
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                    Bensusan
                    > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
                    much that
                    > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Derek
                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
                    > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                    >
                    >
                    > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
                    know
                    > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
                    end
                    > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
                    for
                    > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
                    we
                    > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
                    good
                    > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
                    > shenanigans.
                    >
                    > Derek Williams
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
                    <s@r...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
                    > >
                    > > Sandy Price
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                    > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                    > Bensusan
                    > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
                    > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
                    > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
                    > >
                    > > Forwarded for your interest:
                    > >
                    > > Searching for a New Direction
                    > >
                    > > by Ron Paul
                    > > by Ron Paul
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
                    > >
                    > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
                    Washington
                    > scandal
                    > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
                    > Koreagate;
                    > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
                    Dome.
                    > Possibly so.
                    > > It's certainly serious and significant.
                    > >
                    > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
                    with
                    > the mess.
                    > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
                    > requirements, and
                    > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
                    assured
                    > we mean
                    > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
                    > Congress. It is
                    > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
                    leadership
                    > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
                    > crisis of
                    > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
                    > well. But it's
                    > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
                    of
                    > the
                    > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
                    refuse
                    > to
                    > > properly identify and deal with.
                    > >
                    > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
                    way
                    > Congress is
                    > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
                    attitudes
                    > about what
                    > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
                    won't
                    > do much to
                    > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
                    > addressing the
                    > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
                    leaders
                    > and writing
                    > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
                    achieve
                    > nothing.
                    > >
                    > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
                    > solution to
                    > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
                    > Perhaps some of
                    > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
                    others
                    > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
                    > miserably corrupt
                    > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
                    state of
                    > denial.
                    > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
                    reveals
                    > more and
                    > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
                    and
                    > to what
                    > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
                    > irresponsible
                    > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
                    successive
                    > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
                    > recipients of
                    > > the largesse.
                    > >
                    > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
                    > significantly
                    > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
                    especially
                    > those who
                    > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
                    system
                    > that has
                    > > evolved over the decades.
                    > >
                    > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
                    scant
                    > outcry over
                    > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
                    > poorer and
                    > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
                    the
                    > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
                    > master the
                    > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
                    ones
                    > who truly
                    > > benefit.
                    > >
                    > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
                    > dependency on
                    > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
                    itself
                    > as the
                    > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
                    > leadership are
                    > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
                    > >
                    > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
                    > itself to
                    > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
                    > >
                    > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
                    our
                    > serious
                    > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
                    founders
                    > detested
                    > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
                    > documents. Today,
                    > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
                    > life,
                    > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
                    > miles away.
                    > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
                    No one
                    > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
                    > allowed to rule
                    > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
                    > >
                    > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
                    notion
                    > that a
                    > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
                    loot
                    > confiscated
                    > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
                    morally
                    > and
                    > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
                    > wonder a
                    > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
                    developed.
                    > Add this to
                    > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
                    decades
                    > due to a
                    > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
                    intervention,
                    > and we
                    > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
                    learn
                    > the tricks
                    > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
                    > their aides
                    > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
                    more
                    > lucrative
                    > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
                    > process invites
                    > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
                    > because of the
                    > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
                    > generates.
                    > >
                    > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
                    > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
                    people
                    > truly
                    > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
                    lobbyists
                    > and
                    > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
                    problem
                    > will be
                    > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
                    worse.
                    > >
                    > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
                    > proposition.
                    > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
                    identifying
                    > its source,
                    > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
                    > states: "Congress shall
                    > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
                    the
                    > government
                    > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
                    > >
                    > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
                    corruption
                    > comes from
                    > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
                    So
                    > what do we
                    > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
                    for
                    > guidance
                    > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
                    addressing
                    > bribery,
                    > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
                    with
                    > the
                    > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
                    > regulations are
                    > > unnecessary.
                    > >
                    > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
                    > citizens, and the
                    > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
                    > that need to
                    > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
                    direction.
                    > Get rid of
                    > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
                    power
                    > of
                    > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
                    the
                    > Abramoff
                    > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
                    would be
                    > a lot
                    > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
                    > removed.
                    > >
                    > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
                    which is
                    > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
                    > accomplished
                    > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
                    character.
                    > Members
                    > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
                    the
                    > path to a
                    > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
                    of
                    > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
                    the
                    > temptation
                    > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
                    are
                    > > acceptable.
                    > >
                    > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
                    interest
                    > favoritism
                    > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
                    at
                    > stake.
                    > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
                    grown
                    > accustomed
                    > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
                    Only
                    > when the
                    > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
                    earmarks
                    > in the
                    > > budget will not solve the problem.
                    > >
                    > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
                    types
                    > are petty
                    > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
                    > Abramoffs in mere
                    > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
                    bogged
                    > down in
                    > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
                    > already, but
                    > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
                    actually
                    > will cost
                    > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
                    done
                    > with.
                    > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
                    unpredictable,
                    > because
                    > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
                    the
                    > war had
                    > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
                    bucks
                    > being
                    > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
                    > corporations.
                    > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
                    > process. And
                    > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
                    > Dissenters
                    > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
                    that a
                    > little
                    > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
                    do
                    > much to
                    > > solve.
                    > >
                    > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
                    national
                    > deficit,
                    > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
                    > allies, and
                    > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
                    > destructive
                    > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
                    entire
                    > Middle
                    > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
                    > >
                    > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
                    over
                    > the last
                    > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
                    > trillion dollars,
                    > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
                    Our
                    > total
                    > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
                    > dollars. Most
                    > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
                    system,
                    > and the new
                    > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
                    pension
                    > funds are
                    > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
                    taxpayers. We
                    > are
                    > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
                    to
                    > finance this
                    > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
                    > debtor nation
                    > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
                    hardly
                    > the way to
                    > > secure a sound economy.
                    > >
                    > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
                    > oblivious to the
                    > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
                    no
                    > resistance
                    > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
                    > nearly 2 ½
                    > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
                    > demands. The
                    > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
                    > These
                    > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
                    > tinkering with
                    > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
                    > >
                    > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
                    and
                    > members
                    > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
                    > capture a piece
                    > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
                    > effectiveness
                    > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
                    > >
                    > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
                    > morally and
                    > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
                    questioned.
                    > It is the
                    > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
                    > poor and
                    > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
                    the
                    > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
                    of
                    > all the
                    > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
                    while
                    > delaying
                    > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
                    generation.
                    > >
                    > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
                    > special
                    > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
                    > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
                    the
                    > question -
                    > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
                    > willingness to
                    > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
                    limited
                    > and may
                    > > well diminish in the future.
                    > >
                    > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
                    create
                    > huge amounts
                    > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
                    rise
                    > and call
                    > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
                    depreciated
                    > dollar don't
                    > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
                    promote
                    > the corrupt
                    > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
                    > unsophisticated buy in
                    > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
                    to
                    > another, and
                    > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
                    > central banks
                    > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
                    > counterfeiting.
                    > >
                    > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
                    from
                    > savings, and
                    > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
                    > counterfeiter has no
                    > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
                    The
                    > incentive
                    > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
                    whose
                    > people are
                    > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
                    only
                    > way we can
                    > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
                    the
                    > foreign
                    > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
                    > wealth that we
                    > > enjoy.
                    > >
                    > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
                    of
                    > illegal
                    > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
                    Mexico
                    > and
                    > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
                    our
                    > economy
                    > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
                    > education and
                    > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
                    dependent on
                    > our
                    > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
                    of
                    > debt becomes
                    > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
                    United
                    > States will
                    > > change.
                    > >
                    > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
                    use
                    > the money
                    > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
                    > corporations, and
                    > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
                    > ones at the
                    > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
                    > dollars to buy
                    > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
                    By
                    > then their
                    > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
                    > goes down.
                    > >
                    > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
                    > thirty-four
                    > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
                    > Industries go
                    > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
                    > middle class,
                    > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
                    > hopes to keep
                    > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
                    > struggle to
                    > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
                    ability to
                    > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
                    > problem: it all
                    > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
                    and
                    > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
                    the
                    > end are
                    > > already appearing.
                    > >
                    > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
                    a
                    > consequence
                    > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
                    > dollar price
                    > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
                    > increase).
                    > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
                    time-
                    > honored and
                    > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
                    55%.
                    > The
                    > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
                    > soundness of its
                    > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
                    she
                    > depreciated
                    > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
                    > downfall. That
                    > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
                    > >
                    > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
                    not
                    > yet on
                    > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
                    problem is
                    > being
                    > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
                    terms,
                    > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
                    > We'll make
                    > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
                    learn
                    > how to be
                    > > more ethical.
                    > >
                    > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
                    and
                    > hides a
                    > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
                    creation
                    > is hard to
                    > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
                    our
                    > economic,
                    > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
                    > >
                    > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
                    > (helping the
                    > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
                    to
                    > capitalize
                    > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
                    > Eventually
                    > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
                    > borrowing,
                    > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
                    that
                    > > distributes loot by majority vote.
                    > >
                    > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
                    > government
                    > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
                    > controlled and
                    > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
                    to
                    > accept our
                    > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
                    question,
                    > despite the
                    > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
                    > >
                    > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
                    in
                    > policy
                    > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
                    > lot. And
                    > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
                    > until there is
                    > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
                    > currency, and a
                    > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
                    > confidence.
                    > >
                    > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
                    over
                    > with
                    > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
                    > government and
                    > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
                    toward
                    > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
                    that
                    > creates
                    > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
                    > feed off the
                    > > corrupt system.
                    > >
                    > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
                    wealth
                    > from the
                    > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
                    the
                    > same.
                    > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
                    value
                    > of each
                    > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
                    > wealthy in the
                    > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
                    and
                    > more uneasy
                    > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
                    > >
                    > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
                    in
                    > context of
                    > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
                    > >
                    > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
                    not
                    > an
                    > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
                    will
                    > come of
                    > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
                    in
                    > our personal
                    > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
                    > around the
                    > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
                    > lobbyists
                    > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
                    > understand
                    > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
                    > petition their
                    > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
                    > pervasive
                    > > problem.
                    > >
                    > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
                    > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
                    > American people
                    > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
                    > >
                    > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
                    > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
                    > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
                    > > 4.. No more nation building;
                    > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
                    > > 6.. No more deficits;
                    > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
                    > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
                    > embarrass those
                    > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
                    current
                    > policy;
                    > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
                    unpatriotic or
                    > disloyal
                    > > to the country;
                    > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
                    budget
                    > spending
                    > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
                    > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
                    > international NGOs,
                    > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
                    > corporate
                    > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
                    > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
                    law-
                    > abiding
                    > > American citizens;
                    > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
                    liberty
                    > by
                    > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
                    tax
                    > violators,
                    > > and gun ownership.
                    > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
                    as
                    > an
                    > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
                    principle
                    > of the
                    > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
                    provide
                    > checks and
                    > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
                    judiciary)
                    > that spies
                    > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
                    wars,
                    > and
                    > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
                    to
                    > be a
                    > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
                    > >
                    > > January 19, 2006
                    > >
                    > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
                    > >
                    > > Denise
                    > >
                    > > Denise Bensusan
                    > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
                    > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
                    > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
                    > >
                    > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
                    Constitution
                    > of the
                    > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
                    the
                    > United
                    > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
                    Courts,
                    > not to
                    > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
                    pervert
                    > the
                    > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.
                    >
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                    subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                    > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >








                    Yahoo! Groups Links









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Denise Bensusan
                    Sandy, I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn t his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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                      Sandy,

                      I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the race?

                      I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                      I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                      ---- Original Message -----
                      From: Sandra Price
                      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                      Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                      Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the many
                      issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement. Their
                      candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                      government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                      several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                      Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                      amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                      believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of the
                      laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and Senate.




                      The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                      Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                      many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be declared
                      criminals.



                      I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted rules
                      of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                      every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                      Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                      legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                      by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                      lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                      I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the authority
                      of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                      want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                      Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                      the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice taken
                      away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for the
                      mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                      HHHH



                      There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of changing
                      what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and will
                      end up supporting chaos.



                      Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                      in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen overboard
                      in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap the
                      current parties are selling at this time.



                      I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                      floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                      they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                      Sandy Pricee has



                      _____



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                    • Denise Bensusan
                      Derek, Do you have an organized activist group at your college??? Denise ... From: Derek Williams To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
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                        Derek,

                        Do you have an organized activist group at your college???


                        Denise
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Derek Williams
                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:50 PM
                        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                        I don't know what the problem with the LP is. I wrote a letter once
                        to the national LP (the party itself), and all they did was write me
                        back and tell me if I REALLY wanted to help, I should just give them
                        money. Well, #1, I am in college right now, and everyone knows how
                        broke college students are. I don't have any money to give right
                        now. #2, IF I had money to give, I would want to have reason to
                        believe that I was going to get a return on my investment. IE,
                        candidates elected, or at least have some GOOD, respectable
                        candidates run for office, and have someone come up with an idea of
                        how to relate to the general public.

                        I have many complaints about Libertarians running for office. We
                        had a guy when I lived in Tampa, FL, who ran as a Libertarian for an
                        office, who was a local strip bar owner and he was always in court
                        fighting with the city, or the county, etc. He seemed to be on a
                        one man crusade to be able to "do his thing". The problem with that
                        is that he cannot relate to, nor will he get votes from, the
                        Christian community or other normal, decent, family type people (the
                        majority that you have to get support from). Most people see strip
                        bar owners and adult book store owners as sleazy characters. I
                        don't want them representing my party to the public. I cannot in
                        good conscience (being a Christian) vote for a guy like that.

                        Ron Paul is definitely respectable and a good guy. No wonder he
                        keeps getting re-elected. I also think that Mike Badnarik will get
                        elected this time in Texas. He is a respectable guy with good views
                        on the issues. They have good careers away from politics and we
                        need more people like these two running for office.

                        I was actually disappointed in the FSP recently because they made
                        such a big deal about the licensing of barbers, cosmetologists, and
                        manicurists in NH. If you are unfamiliar with it, that was where
                        one of the FSP members did a manucure without a license, and got
                        arrested for it to get on the news. Now they have some bills
                        pending to eliminate the requirements (or at least cut down on the
                        training required) for barbers, cosmetologists, and manicurists.

                        Ok, here is the thing: Even though I am not a big fan of state
                        regulation, and barriers to entry in business, if these people
                        (barbers, manucurists,etc) are not taught properly how to disinfect
                        their appliances / tools, they can spread diseases to and among
                        their clients. I read about singer / American Idol judge Paula
                        Abdul getting a very nasty nail fungus a while back from a nail
                        salon where they did not disinfect the tools. Here is a link to
                        this story:

                        http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28361

                        Reportedly, this infection was also spread to many other clients.

                        Now, with stories like this going on, why in the world would the FSP
                        pick THIS issue to fight for less regulation about? Do they think
                        that the people of NH want to risk severe nail infection getting
                        manucures? These bills will be squashed quickly.

                        You can also get lice from non-sterile barber tools. I would not
                        want to have to go through lice treatment because some unlicensed
                        barber didn't sterilize his clippers. (Luckily, I cut my own hair
                        with clippers at home, but most people cannot do this and have to
                        trust that their barber's tools are sterile and clean.)

                        So I think that this was a bad fight to pick. Better fights to pick
                        would be about taxes (most people hate taxes), or the efforts of the
                        FDA / Drug Companies / Codex Alimentarius commission to ban /
                        overregulate dietary supplements, and some of the violations of
                        privacy that are occurring as a result of the Patriot Act. I think
                        there is more public support over health freedom than there is over
                        any other issue. Nobody wants the government to tell them what they
                        can and cannot put in their bodies.

                        I recently wrote to Badnarik's campaign about this and he did not
                        have health freedom in his platform, other than market reforms which
                        benefit drug companies, making drugs cheaper for everyone. I wrote
                        them about it (and how it should include protection for alternative
                        medicine and dietary supplements and fair and accurate claims on
                        such) and was invited to write a position paper on it of about 200
                        words length. Now, his health care policy / position has health
                        freedom in it. (I wrote the first 2 paragraphs of the statement,
                        and they liked what I wrote enough to use it - the rest of it is
                        theirs.)

                        Ron Paul has campaigned for health freedom as well, and I think this
                        contributes to his popularity. I think the public would be very
                        supportive of a Gold or Silver standard also, if it were properly
                        and simply explained to them so that they could understand it
                        without taking too long and boring them, or confusing them. I think
                        that nearly ALL senior citizens (a big voting block) would be very
                        keen to adapt a Gold standard after it is explained to them that the
                        reason their pension or SS money is worth less and less every year
                        is because of inflation caused by printing more and more paper
                        money. Newly married couples and college students should like it
                        too, because it would keep them from being priced out of a house
                        when they are ready to buy their first one. Christians should buy
                        this as well, as paper money violates the Biblical standard of "just
                        weights and measures". After all, your money is worth less and
                        less, the more they print of it. Every loan they make that is not
                        backed by Gold or at least deposits in the banks, is more money
                        created out of thin air, which dilutes the purchasing power of every
                        dollar you and I work so hard for.

                        Funny how we could not imagine buying gas or vegetables without that
                        state dept. of Agriculture certification that the scales or pump are
                        accurate, but we allow the government to water down our money supply
                        so that they can spend more and more and then just pay it back with
                        inflated dollars further on down the road. If someone explained
                        this to the public, they should be able to win a debate easily. Why
                        do the Libertarians not articulate this clearly in debates or
                        advertisements?

                        By the way, I went to a couple of Libertarian meetings in Maricopa
                        County. I have not been to one yet in Tucson. I found somewhere on
                        the web where they meet, but just haven't made it out to a meeting
                        yet.

                        These are just my thoughts. What do you all think about these
                        issues?

                        Derek








                        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Do we even have an active LP organization here? I attended the LP
                        > Convention in Tucson in 2004 and was not impressed with the
                        choices of
                        > candidates. From what I understand, the LP will not vote, even for
                        > themselves. To hell with that!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Sandy Price
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                        Bensusan
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:53 PM
                        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Heck..I think he should run for president!!! I have not seen too
                        much that
                        > Ron Paul speaks about that I disagree with.
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Derek
                        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:59 AM
                        > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction
                        >
                        >
                        > Ron Paul speaks for me as well. I was wondering, does anyone
                        know
                        > who is going to run for the US House seat being vacated at the
                        end
                        > of this term by Jim Kolbe in Tucson? This might be a good time
                        for
                        > a Libertarian to step up and try to win this seat. Or even if
                        we
                        > could get another "Ron Paul - type Republican" that would be
                        good
                        > too. Anything other than another "rubber stamp" for Bush's
                        > shenanigans.
                        >
                        > Derek Williams
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price"
                        <s@r...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Words of wisdom! He speaks for me!!
                        > >
                        > > Sandy Price
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                        > > [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise
                        > Bensusan
                        > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:18 PM
                        > > To: "SPEAK OUT ARIZONA"
                        > > Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Searching for a New Direction
                        > >
                        > > Forwarded for your interest:
                        > >
                        > > Searching for a New Direction
                        > >
                        > > by Ron Paul
                        > > by Ron Paul
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Before the US House of Representatives, January 18, 2006
                        > >
                        > > The Abramoff scandal has been described as the biggest
                        Washington
                        > scandal
                        > > ever: bigger than Watergate; bigger than Abscam; bigger than
                        > Koreagate;
                        > > bigger than the House banking scandal; bigger than Teapot
                        Dome.
                        > Possibly so.
                        > > It's certainly serious and significant.
                        > >
                        > > It has prompted urgent proposals of suggested reforms to deal
                        with
                        > the mess.
                        > > If only we have more rules and regulations, more reporting
                        > requirements, and
                        > > stricter enforcement of laws, the American people will be
                        assured
                        > we mean
                        > > business. Ethics and character will return to the halls of
                        > Congress. It is
                        > > argued that new champions of reform should be elected to
                        leadership
                        > > positions, to show how serious we are about dealing with the
                        > crisis of
                        > > confidence generated by the Abramoff affair. Then all will be
                        > well. But it's
                        > > not so simple. Maybe what we have seen so far is just the tip
                        of
                        > the
                        > > iceberg, an insidious crisis staring us in the face that we
                        refuse
                        > to
                        > > properly identify and deal with.
                        > >
                        > > It's been suggested we need to change course and correct the
                        way
                        > Congress is
                        > > run. A good idea, but if we merely tinker with current
                        attitudes
                        > about what
                        > > role the federal government ought to play in our lives, it
                        won't
                        > do much to
                        > > solve the ethics crisis. True reform is impossible without
                        > addressing the
                        > > immorality of wealth redistribution. Merely electing new
                        leaders
                        > and writing
                        > > more rules to regulate those who petition Congress will
                        achieve
                        > nothing.
                        > >
                        > > Could it be that we're all looking in the wrong places for a
                        > solution to
                        > > recurring, constant, and pervasive corruption in government?
                        > Perhaps some of
                        > > us in Congress are mistaken about the true problem; perhaps
                        others
                        > > deliberately distract us from exposing the truth about how
                        > miserably corrupt
                        > > the budget process in Congress is. Others simply are in a
                        state of
                        > denial.
                        > > But the denial will come to an end as the Abramoff scandal
                        reveals
                        > more and
                        > > more. It eventually will expose the scandal of the ages: how
                        and
                        > to what
                        > > degree the American people have become indebted by the totally
                        > irresponsible
                        > > spending habits of the U.S. Congress - as encouraged by
                        successive
                        > > administrations, condoned by our courts, and enjoyed by the
                        > recipients of
                        > > the largesse.
                        > >
                        > > This system of government is coming to an end - a fact that
                        > significantly
                        > > contributes to the growing anxiety of most Americans,
                        especially
                        > those who
                        > > pay the bills and receive little in return from the corrupt
                        system
                        > that has
                        > > evolved over the decades.
                        > >
                        > > Believe me, if everybody benefited equally there would be
                        scant
                        > outcry over
                        > > a little bribery and influence peddling. As our country grows
                        > poorer and
                        > > more indebted, fewer people benefit. The beneficiaries are not
                        the
                        > > hard-working, honest people who pay the taxes. The groups that
                        > master the
                        > > system of lobbying and special interest legislation are the
                        ones
                        > who truly
                        > > benefit.
                        > >
                        > > The steady erosion of real wealth in this country, and the
                        > dependency on
                        > > government generated by welfarism and warfarism, presents
                        itself
                        > as the
                        > > crisis of the ages. Lobbying scandals and the need for new
                        > leadership are
                        > > mere symptoms of a much, much deeper problem.
                        > >
                        > > There are quite a few reasons a relatively free country allows
                        > itself to
                        > > fall into such an ethical and financial mess.
                        > >
                        > > One major contributing factor for the past hundred years is
                        our
                        > serious
                        > > misunderstanding of the dangers of pure democracy. The
                        founders
                        > detested
                        > > democracy and avoided the use of the word in all the early
                        > documents. Today,
                        > > most Americans accept without question a policy of sacrificing
                        > life,
                        > > property, and dollars to force "democracy" on a country 6,000
                        > miles away.
                        > > This tells us how little opposition there is to "democracy."
                        No one
                        > > questions the principle that a majority electorate should be
                        > allowed to rule
                        > > the country, dictate rights, and redistribute wealth.
                        > >
                        > > Our system of democracy has come to mean worshipping the
                        notion
                        > that a
                        > > majority vote for the distribution of government largesse,
                        loot
                        > confiscated
                        > > from the American people through an immoral tax system, is
                        morally
                        > and
                        > > constitutionally acceptable. Under these circumstances it's no
                        > wonder a
                        > > system of runaway lobbying and special interests has
                        developed.
                        > Add this to
                        > > the military industrial complex that developed over the
                        decades
                        > due to a
                        > > foreign policy of perpetual war and foreign military
                        intervention,
                        > and we
                        > > shouldn't wonder why there is such a powerful motivation to
                        learn
                        > the tricks
                        > > of the lobbying trade - and why former members of Congress and
                        > their aides
                        > > become such high-priced commodities. Buying influence is much
                        more
                        > lucrative
                        > > than working and producing for a living. The trouble is the
                        > process invites
                        > > moral corruption. The dollars involved grow larger and larger
                        > because of the
                        > > deficit financing and inflation that pure democracy always
                        > generates.
                        > >
                        > > Dealing with lobbying scandals while ignoring the scandal of
                        > > unconstitutional runaway government will solve nothing. If
                        people
                        > truly
                        > > believe that reform is the solution, through regulating
                        lobbyists
                        > and
                        > > increasing congressional reporting requirements, the real
                        problem
                        > will be
                        > > ignored and never identified. This reform only makes things
                        worse.
                        > >
                        > > Greater regulation of lobbyists is a dangerous and unnecessary
                        > proposition.
                        > > If one expects to solve a problem without correctly
                        identifying
                        > its source,
                        > > the problem persists. The First amendment clearly
                        > states: "Congress shall
                        > > make no laws respecting.the right of the people.to petition
                        the
                        > government
                        > > for a redress of grievances." That means NO law!
                        > >
                        > > The problem of special interest government that breeds
                        corruption
                        > comes from
                        > > our lack of respect for the Constitution in the first place.
                        So
                        > what do we
                        > > do? We further violate the Constitution rather than examine it
                        for
                        > guidance
                        > > as to the proper role of the federal government. Laws
                        addressing
                        > bribery,
                        > > theft, and fraud, already on the books, are adequate to deal
                        with
                        > the
                        > > criminal activities associated with lobbying. New laws and
                        > regulations are
                        > > unnecessary.
                        > >
                        > > The theft that the federal government commits against its
                        > citizens, and the
                        > > power that Congress has assumed illegally, are the real crimes
                        > that need to
                        > > be dealt with. In this regard we truly do need a new
                        direction.
                        > Get rid of
                        > > the evil tax system; the fraudulent monetary system; and the
                        power
                        > of
                        > > government to run our lives, the economy, and the world; and
                        the
                        > Abramoff
                        > > types would be exposed for the mere gnats they are. There
                        would be
                        > a lot
                        > > less of them, since the incentives to buy politicians would be
                        > removed.
                        > >
                        > > Even under today's flawed system of democratic government,
                        which is
                        > > dedicated to redistributing property by force, a lot could be
                        > accomplished
                        > > if government attracted men and women of good will and
                        character.
                        > Members
                        > > could refuse to yield to the temptations of office, and reject
                        the
                        > path to a
                        > > lobbying career. But it seems once government adopts the rules
                        of
                        > > immorality, some of the participants in the process yield to
                        the
                        > temptation
                        > > as well, succumbing to the belief that the new moral standards
                        are
                        > > acceptable.
                        > >
                        > > Today though, any new rules designed to restrain special
                        interest
                        > favoritism
                        > > will only push the money further under the table. Too much is
                        at
                        > stake.
                        > > Corporations, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and politicians have
                        grown
                        > accustomed
                        > > to the system, and have learned to work within it to survive.
                        Only
                        > when the
                        > > trough is emptied will the country wake up. Eliminating
                        earmarks
                        > in the
                        > > budget will not solve the problem.
                        > >
                        > > Comparing the current scandal to the "big" one, the Abramoff
                        types
                        > are petty
                        > > thieves. The government deals in trillions of dollars; the
                        > Abramoffs in mere
                        > > tens of millions. Take a look at the undeclared war we're
                        bogged
                        > down in
                        > > 6,000 miles from our shores. We've spent 300 billion dollars
                        > already, but
                        > > Nobel prize winner Joseph Stiglitz argues that the war
                        actually
                        > will cost
                        > > between one and two trillion dollars when it's all over and
                        done
                        > with.
                        > > That's trillions, not billions. Even that figure is
                        unpredictable,
                        > because
                        > > we may be in Iraq another year or ten - who knows? Considering
                        the
                        > war had
                        > > nothing to do with our national security, we're talking big
                        bucks
                        > being
                        > > wasted and lining the pockets of many well-connected American
                        > corporations.
                        > > Waste, fraud, stupidity, and no-bid contracts characterize the
                        > process. And
                        > > it's all done in the name of patriotism and national security.
                        > Dissenters
                        > > are accused of supporting the enemy. Now this is a rip-off
                        that a
                        > little
                        > > tinkering with House rules and restraints on lobbyists won't
                        do
                        > much to
                        > > solve.
                        > >
                        > > Think of how this undeclared war has contributed to our
                        national
                        > deficit,
                        > > undermined military morale and preparedness, antagonized our
                        > allies, and
                        > > exposed us to an even greater threat from those who resent our
                        > destructive
                        > > occupation. Claiming we have no interests in the oil of the
                        entire
                        > Middle
                        > > East hardly helps our credibility throughout the world.
                        > >
                        > > The system of special interest government that has evolved
                        over
                        > the last
                        > > several decades has given us a national debt of over eight
                        > trillion dollars,
                        > > a debt that now expands by over 600 billion dollars each year.
                        Our
                        > total
                        > > obligations are estimated between fifteen and twenty trillion
                        > dollars. Most
                        > > people realize the Social Security system, the Medicare
                        system,
                        > and the new
                        > > prescription drug plan are unfunded. Thousands of private
                        pension
                        > funds are
                        > > now being dumped on the U.S. government and American
                        taxpayers. We
                        > are
                        > > borrowing over 700 billion dollars each year from foreigners
                        to
                        > finance this
                        > > extravagance, and we now qualify as the greatest international
                        > debtor nation
                        > > in history. Excessive consumption using borrowed money is
                        hardly
                        > the way to
                        > > secure a sound economy.
                        > >
                        > > Instead of reining in government spending, Congress remains
                        > oblivious to the
                        > > financial dangers and panders to special interests by offering
                        no
                        > resistance
                        > > whatsoever to every request for new spending. Congress spends
                        > nearly 2 ½
                        > > trillion dollars annually in an attempt to satisfy everyone's
                        > demands. The
                        > > system has generated over 200 trillion dollars of derivatives.
                        > These
                        > > problems can't be addressed with token leadership changes and
                        > tinkering with
                        > > the budget. A new and a dramatic direction is required.
                        > >
                        > > As current policy further erodes the budget, special interests
                        and
                        > members
                        > > of Congress become even more aggressive in their efforts to
                        > capture a piece
                        > > of the dwindling economic pie. That success is the measure of
                        > effectiveness
                        > > that guarantees a member's re-election.
                        > >
                        > > The biggest rip-off of all - the paper money system that is
                        > morally and
                        > > economically equivalent to counterfeiting - is never
                        questioned.
                        > It is the
                        > > deceptive tool for transferring billions from the unsuspecting
                        > poor and
                        > > middle-class to the special interest rich. And in the process,
                        the
                        > > deficit-propelled budget process supports the spending demands
                        of
                        > all the
                        > > special interests - left and right, welfare and warfare -
                        while
                        > delaying
                        > > payment to another day and sometimes even to another
                        generation.
                        > >
                        > > The enormous sums spent each year to support the influential
                        > special
                        > > interests expand exponentially, and no one really asks how it's
                        > > accomplished. Raising taxes to balance the budget is out of
                        the
                        > question -
                        > > and rightfully so. Foreigners have been generous in their
                        > willingness to
                        > > loan us most of what we need, but even that generosity is
                        limited
                        > and may
                        > > well diminish in the future.
                        > >
                        > > But if the Federal Reserve did not pick up the slack and
                        create
                        > huge amounts
                        > > of new credit and money out of thin air, interest rates would
                        rise
                        > and call
                        > > a halt to the charade. The people who suffer from a
                        depreciated
                        > dollar don't
                        > > understand why they suffer, while the people who benefit
                        promote
                        > the corrupt
                        > > system. The wealthy clean up on Wall Street, and the
                        > unsophisticated buy in
                        > > as the market tops off. Wealth is transferred from one group
                        to
                        > another, and
                        > > it's all related to the system that allows politicians and the
                        > central banks
                        > > to create money out of thin air. It's literally legalized
                        > counterfeiting.
                        > >
                        > > Is it any wonder jobs go overseas? True capital only comes
                        from
                        > savings, and
                        > > Americans save nothing. We only borrow and consume. A
                        > counterfeiter has no
                        > > incentive to take his newly created money and build factories.
                        The
                        > incentive
                        > > for Americans is to buy consumer goods from other countries
                        whose
                        > people are
                        > > willing to save and invest in their factories and jobs. The
                        only
                        > way we can
                        > > continue this charade is to borrow excess dollars back from
                        the
                        > foreign
                        > > governments who sell us goods, and perpetuate the pretense of
                        > wealth that we
                        > > enjoy.
                        > >
                        > > The system of money contributes significantly to the problem
                        of
                        > illegal
                        > > immigration. On the surface, immigrants escaping poverty in
                        Mexico
                        > and
                        > > Central America come here for the economic opportunity that
                        our
                        > economy
                        > > offers. However, the social services they receive, including
                        > education and
                        > > medical benefits - as well as the jobs they get - are
                        dependent on
                        > our
                        > > perpetual indebtedness to foreign countries. When the burden
                        of
                        > debt becomes
                        > > excessive, this incentive to seek prosperity here in the
                        United
                        > States will
                        > > change.
                        > >
                        > > The prime beneficiaries of a paper money system are those who
                        use
                        > the money
                        > > early - governments, politicians, bankers, international
                        > corporations, and
                        > > the military industrial complex. Those who suffer most are the
                        > ones at the
                        > > end of the money chain - the people forced to use depreciated
                        > dollars to buy
                        > > urgently needed goods and services to survive. And guess what?
                        By
                        > then their
                        > > money is worth less, prices soar, and their standard of living
                        > goes down.
                        > >
                        > > The consequences of this system, fully in place for the past
                        > thirty-four
                        > > years, are astronomical and impossible to accurately measure.
                        > Industries go
                        > > offshore and the jobs follow. Price inflation eats away at the
                        > middle class,
                        > > and deficits soar while spending escalates rapidly as Congress
                        > hopes to keep
                        > > up with the problems it created. The remaining wealth that we
                        > struggle to
                        > > hold onto is based on debt, future tax revenues, and our
                        ability to
                        > > manufacture new dollars without restraint. There's only one
                        > problem: it all
                        > > depends on trust in the dollar, especially by foreign holders
                        and
                        > > purchasers. This trust will end, and signs of the beginning of
                        the
                        > end are
                        > > already appearing.
                        > >
                        > > During this administration the dollar has suffered severely as
                        a
                        > consequence
                        > > of the policy of inflating the currency to pay our bills. The
                        > dollar price
                        > > of gold has more than doubled ($252 to $560 per ounce, a 122 %
                        > increase).
                        > > This means the dollar has depreciated in terms of gold, the
                        time-
                        > honored and
                        > > reliable measurement of a nation's currency, by an astounding
                        55%.
                        > The
                        > > long-term economic health of the nation is measured by the
                        > soundness of its
                        > > currency. Once Rome converted from a republic to an empire,
                        she
                        > depreciated
                        > > her currency to pay the bills. This eventually led to Rome's
                        > downfall. That
                        > > is exactly what America is facing unless we change our ways.
                        > >
                        > > Now this is a real scandal worth worrying about. Since it's
                        not
                        > yet on
                        > > Washington's radar screen, no attempt at addressing the
                        problem is
                        > being
                        > > made. Instead, we'll be sure to make those the Constitution
                        terms,
                        > > "petitioners to redress their grievances" fill out more forms.
                        > We'll make
                        > > government officials attend more ethics courses so they can
                        learn
                        > how to be
                        > > more ethical.
                        > >
                        > > A free nation, as it moves toward authoritarianism, tolerates
                        and
                        > hides a
                        > > lot of abuse in the system. The human impulse for wealth
                        creation
                        > is hard to
                        > > destroy. But in the end it will happen here, if true reform of
                        our
                        > economic,
                        > > monetary, and political system is not accomplished.
                        > >
                        > > Whether government programs are promoted for "good" causes
                        > (helping the
                        > > poor), or bad causes (permitting a military-industrial complex
                        to
                        > capitalize
                        > > on war profits), the principles of the market are undermined.
                        > Eventually
                        > > nearly everyone becomes dependent on the system of deficits,
                        > borrowing,
                        > > printing press money, and the special interest budget process
                        that
                        > > distributes loot by majority vote.
                        > >
                        > > Today, most business interests and the poor are dependent on
                        > government
                        > > handouts. Education and medical care are almost completely
                        > controlled and
                        > > regulated by an overpowering central government. We have come
                        to
                        > accept our
                        > > role as world policemen and nation builder with little
                        question,
                        > despite the
                        > > bad results and an inability to pay the bills.
                        > >
                        > > The question is, what will it take to bring about the changes
                        in
                        > policy
                        > > needed to reverse this dangerous trend? The answer is: quite a
                        > lot. And
                        > > unfortunately it's not on the horizon. It probably won't come
                        > until there is
                        > > a rejection of the dollar as the safest and strongest world
                        > currency, and a
                        > > return to commodity money like gold and silver to restore
                        > confidence.
                        > >
                        > > The Abramoff-type scandals come and go in Washington, patched
                        over
                        > with
                        > > grandiose schemes of reform that amount to nothing but more
                        > government and
                        > > congressional mischief. But our efforts should be directed
                        toward
                        > > eliminating the greatest of all frauds - printing press money
                        that
                        > creates
                        > > the political conditions breeding the vultures and leeches who
                        > feed off the
                        > > corrupt system.
                        > >
                        > > Counterfeiting money never creates wealth - it only steals
                        wealth
                        > from the
                        > > unsuspecting. The Federal Reserve creation of money is exactly
                        the
                        > same.
                        > > Increasing the dollars in circulation can only diminish the
                        value
                        > of each
                        > > existing dollar. Only production and jobs can make a country
                        > wealthy in the
                        > > long run. Today it's obvious our country is becoming poorer
                        and
                        > more uneasy
                        > > as our jobs and capital go overseas.
                        > >
                        > > The Abramoff scandal can serve a useful purpose if we put it
                        in
                        > context of
                        > > the entire system that encourages corruption.
                        > >
                        > > If it's seen as an isolated case of individual corruption, and
                        not
                        > an
                        > > expected consequence of big government run amuck, little good
                        will
                        > come of
                        > > it. If we understand how our system of government intervenes
                        in
                        > our personal
                        > > lives, the entire economy, and the internal affairs of nations
                        > around the
                        > > world, we can understand how it generates the conditions where
                        > lobbyists
                        > > thrive. Only then will some good come of it. Only then will we
                        > understand
                        > > that undermining the First amendment right of the people to
                        > petition their
                        > > government is hardly a solution to this much more serious and
                        > pervasive
                        > > problem.
                        > >
                        > > If we're inclined to improve conditions, we should give serious
                        > > consideration to the following policy reforms, reforms the
                        > American people
                        > > who cherish liberty would enthusiastically support:
                        > >
                        > > 1.. No more "No Child Left Behind" legislation;
                        > > 2.. No more prescription drug programs;
                        > > 3.. No more undeclared wars;
                        > > 4.. No more nation building;
                        > > 5.. No more acting as the world policemen;
                        > > 6.. No more deficits;
                        > > 7.. Cut spending - everywhere;
                        > > 8.. No more political and partisan resolutions designed to
                        > embarrass those
                        > > who may well have legitimate and honest disagreements with
                        current
                        > policy;
                        > > 9.. No inferences that disagreeing with policy is
                        unpatriotic or
                        > disloyal
                        > > to the country;
                        > > 10.. No more pretense of budget reform while ignoring off-
                        budget
                        > spending
                        > > and the ever-growing fourteen appropriations bills;
                        > > 11.. Cut funding for corporate welfare, foreign aid,
                        > international NGOs,
                        > > defense contractors, the military industrial complex, and rich
                        > corporate
                        > > farmers before cutting welfare for the poor at home;
                        > > 12.. No more unconstitutional intrusions into the privacy of
                        law-
                        > abiding
                        > > American citizens;
                        > > 13.. Reconsider the hysterical demands for security over
                        liberty
                        > by
                        > > curtailing the ever-expanding and oppressive wars on drugs,
                        tax
                        > violators,
                        > > and gun ownership.
                        > > Finally, why not try something novel, like having Congress act
                        as
                        > an
                        > > independent and equal branch of government? Restore the
                        principle
                        > of the
                        > > separation of powers, so that we can perform our duty to
                        provide
                        > checks and
                        > > balances on an executive branch (and an accommodating
                        judiciary)
                        > that spies
                        > > on Americans, glorifies the welfare state, fights undeclared
                        wars,
                        > and
                        > > enormously increases the national debt. Congress was not meant
                        to
                        > be a
                        > > rubber stamp. It's time for a new direction.
                        > >
                        > > January 19, 2006
                        > >
                        > > Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
                        > >
                        > > Denise
                        > >
                        > > Denise Bensusan
                        > > SPEAK OUT ARIZONA
                        > > A Not for Profit Community Active Publication
                        > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~denise.bensusan/
                        > >
                        > > "Our safety, our liberty, depends upon preserving the
                        Constitution
                        > of the
                        > > United States as our Fathers made it inviolate. The people of
                        the
                        > United
                        > > States are the rightful masters of both Congress and the
                        Courts,
                        > not to
                        > > overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who
                        pervert
                        > the
                        > > Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Derek
                        I didn t really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told, however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected over him. I do not think
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I didn't really see anything wrong with Badnarik. Truth be told,
                          however, I did like Aaron Russo better before Badnarik was selected
                          over him.

                          I do not think we have a chance of winning the white house any time
                          soon, however, I do think that it adds to our legitimacy to run
                          somebody for the office each time. I DO, however, think that we can
                          very possibly win US House seats in certain areas, and I think that
                          Badnarik may just be in such an area to win this time.

                          I think that if we run good people like Badnarik, Russo, etc, for US
                          house seats in carefully selected areas where they have a good
                          chance of winning (like NH or Texas or Nevada), and they do a good
                          job and don't embarrass the party when they win, it will help us to
                          look more legitimate and then we can run for statewide seats like
                          Governor and US Senator and actually be competitive.

                          I also think that we need to tone down the "crazier" elements of our
                          party's positions and emphasize more the ones that more of the
                          general public will accept. The way the democrats and republicans
                          got us into this mess was a little at a time. Short of another
                          revolutionary war, or state seccession, probably the only peaceful
                          way to take it back is by incrementalization also. I would define
                          the "crazier" elements as the legalization of drugs, prostitution,
                          and polygamy. Most average Americans simply will not accept these
                          things. So why even mention them? They should not even be
                          mentioned as issues.

                          But Gold backed money, abolition of the IRS, and removing barriers
                          to entry for small businesses would all be popular causes. And I
                          did not know that Badnarik was involved with some of the "tax
                          protestor" people. I used to live in rural NC, and we had a lot of
                          tax protestors and militia members back there. Most of the tax
                          protestors went to PRISON as soon as they were caught and tried.
                          And judges do not even let them use their "unconstitutional"
                          arguments in court. So it would benefit us to tell our candidates
                          to not even use that line, and instead legislate away the IRS in
                          congress and the senate. If the gov't still insisted on a national
                          tax of some sort, it should be limited to something like a 1%
                          national sales tax, but have it capped to only 1% max by a
                          constitutional amendment. I think that would be popular.

                          Also, it wouldn't hurt us to find some well known celebrity
                          candidates to run for office, that wouldn't do something stupid and
                          embarrass us. I have read that Clint Eastwood (although he is too
                          old), and Woody Harrelson are Libertarians. Pro Wrestler Val Venis
                          (real name Sean Morey) is too, although Sean is a Canadian. Jesse
                          Ventura, even though he ran as a Reform Party candidate, espouses
                          many Libertarian beliefs. I was very happy when Jesse won the
                          governorship of Minnesota. That shows that it can be done. And
                          even if we never win the white house, if we can win enough of the
                          House and senate and state seats, we could still get a lot done and
                          send a strong message that people are tired of the police state.

                          Derek






                          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                          <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sandy,
                          >
                          > I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't
                          his family threatened the next time around or something and he
                          backed away from the race?
                          >
                          > I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution
                          and that's what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support
                          this belief and will try to put my hands on them and forward them.
                          >
                          > I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik)
                          in order to become pliable. Just my personal opinion.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---- Original Message -----
                          > From: Sandra Price
                          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                          > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                          Direction
                          >
                          >
                          > Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP
                          for the many
                          > issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian
                          movement. Their
                          > candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression
                          they want the
                          > government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael
                          Badnarik on
                          > several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                          > Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be
                          interpreted and
                          > amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group
                          of men who
                          > believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a
                          part of the
                          > laws of America for many years under the authority of the House
                          and Senate.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done
                          through the
                          > Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be
                          dealing with
                          > many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to
                          be declared
                          > criminals.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the
                          accepted rules
                          > of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on
                          removing
                          > every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up
                          under the Bush
                          > Administration and have shown themselves incapable of
                          determining what is
                          > legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be
                          designed and run
                          > by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control
                          over our
                          > lives and will eliminate our state rights.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over
                          the authority
                          > of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S.
                          Constitution. I do not
                          > want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate
                          of
                          > Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American
                          family has
                          > the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this
                          choice taken
                          > away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a
                          choice for the
                          > mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.
                          >
                          > HHHH
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways
                          of changing
                          > what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find
                          wrong and will
                          > end up supporting chaos.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                          elections
                          > in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have
                          fallen overboard
                          > in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through
                          the crap the
                          > current parties are selling at this time.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they
                          too are
                          > floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but
                          not the way
                          > they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sandy Pricee has
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Sandra Price
                          Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael Badnarik
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                            honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                            Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                            this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                            Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                            extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                            these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                            Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                            coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                            tooth fairy.



                            I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                            recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                            on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                            The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                            breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                            tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                            when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                            enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                            writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                            (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                            petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                            For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                            people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                            HHHH

                            You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                            organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                            but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                            work to change the law.



                            Sandy



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                            Sandy,

                            I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                            threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                            race?

                            I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                            what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                            try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                            I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                            become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                            ---- Original Message -----
                            From: Sandra Price
                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                            Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                            many
                            issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                            Their
                            candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                            government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                            several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                            Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                            amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                            believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                            the
                            laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                            Senate.




                            The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                            Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                            many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                            declared
                            criminals.



                            I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                            rules
                            of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                            every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                            Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                            legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                            by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                            lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                            I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                            authority
                            of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                            want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                            Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                            the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                            taken
                            away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                            the
                            mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                            HHHH



                            There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                            changing
                            what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                            will
                            end up supporting chaos.



                            Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                            in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                            overboard
                            in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                            the
                            current parties are selling at this time.



                            I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                            floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                            they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                            Sandy Pricee has



                            _____



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            Yahoo! Groups Links










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            _____

                            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                            * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                            _____



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Denise Bensusan
                            Sandy said: You ve been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead but
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                              organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                              but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                              work to change the law."

                              Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                              As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                              Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Sandra Price
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                              Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately and
                              honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                              Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source on
                              this information and will share it with you when the last two are in prison.
                              Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                              extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up with
                              these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                              Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                              coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                              tooth fairy.



                              I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                              recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold fringe
                              on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid silly.
                              The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                              breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                              tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in 1970
                              when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                              enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of the
                              writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray Price
                              (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                              petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                              For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and the
                              people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was fine.
                              HHHH

                              You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                              organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                              but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                              work to change the law.



                              Sandy



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                              Sandy,

                              I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his family
                              threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                              race?

                              I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and that's
                              what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                              try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                              I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order to
                              become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                              ---- Original Message -----
                              From: Sandra Price
                              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                              Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                              Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                              many
                              issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                              Their
                              candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want the
                              government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                              several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                              Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted and
                              amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men who
                              believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                              the
                              laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                              Senate.




                              The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through the
                              Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing with
                              many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                              declared
                              criminals.



                              I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                              rules
                              of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                              every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the Bush
                              Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what is
                              legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and run
                              by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                              lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                              I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                              authority
                              of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do not
                              want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                              Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family has
                              the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                              taken
                              away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                              the
                              mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                              HHHH



                              There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                              changing
                              what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                              will
                              end up supporting chaos.



                              Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our elections
                              in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                              overboard
                              in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                              the
                              current parties are selling at this time.



                              I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                              floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the way
                              they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                              Sandy Pricee has



                              _____



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              Yahoo! Groups Links










                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              _____

                              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                              * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                              * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                              * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                              _____



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              Yahoo! Groups Links








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sandra Price
                              I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what you want
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                                believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                                you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                                will be implicated.



                                Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                                pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                                Sandy

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                his
                                organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                                but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                                work to change the law."

                                Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                                I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                                is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                                As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                                Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                                them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                                speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                                Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sandra Price
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                                and
                                honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                                Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                                on
                                this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                                prison.
                                Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                                extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                                with
                                these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                                Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                                coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                                tooth fairy.



                                I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                                recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                                fringe
                                on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                                silly.
                                The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                                breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                                tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                                1970
                                when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                                enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                                the
                                writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                                Price
                                (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                                petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                                For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                                the
                                people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                                fine.
                                HHHH

                                You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                                organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                                but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                                work to change the law.



                                Sandy



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                Sandy,

                                I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                                family
                                threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                                race?

                                I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                                that's
                                what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                                try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                                I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                                to
                                become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                                ---- Original Message -----
                                From: Sandra Price
                                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                                Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                                many
                                issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                                Their
                                candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                                the
                                government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                                several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                                Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                                and
                                amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                                who
                                believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                                the
                                laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                                Senate.




                                The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                                the
                                Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                                with
                                many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                                declared
                                criminals.



                                I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                                rules
                                of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                                every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                                Bush
                                Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                                is
                                legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                                run
                                by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                                lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                                I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                                authority
                                of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                                not
                                want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                                Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                                has
                                the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                                taken
                                away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                                the
                                mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                                HHHH



                                There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                                changing
                                what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                                will
                                end up supporting chaos.



                                Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                                elections
                                in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                                overboard
                                in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                                the
                                current parties are selling at this time.



                                I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                                floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                                way
                                they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                                Sandy Pricee has



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                              • Denise Bensusan
                                Good points Sandy! Thanks ... From: Sandra Price To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines]
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Good points Sandy!

                                  Thanks
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sandra Price
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:18 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                  I was warning you to stay away from this group who is promoting what you
                                  believe to be true. Free speech is no longer legal, not now! Believe what
                                  you want but have a lawyer ready. This is a big deal and many in the LP
                                  will be implicated.



                                  Some day if we ever can locate a congress with balls, we might be able to
                                  pull off this crap about the IRS being outside the law.



                                  Sandy

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:59 AM
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                  Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                  his
                                  organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                                  but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                                  work to change the law."

                                  Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply stated that
                                  I have some documents and information that support the premise that the IRS
                                  is indeed in violation of the Constitution.

                                  As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in different ways.
                                  Just because someone believes that the IRS is unconstitutional does not make
                                  them a criminal and does not mean they are headed for the pokey. Free
                                  speech is still legal...well at least for today...LOL

                                  Great points however...thanks for sharing them.


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sandra Price
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                  Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working legitimately
                                  and
                                  honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing Michael
                                  Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an inside source
                                  on
                                  this information and will share it with you when the last two are in
                                  prison.
                                  Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done time for
                                  extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any signs up
                                  with
                                  these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the near future.
                                  Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very close to
                                  coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop believing in the
                                  tooth fairy.



                                  I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government. I do
                                  recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid gold
                                  fringe
                                  on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan stupid
                                  silly.
                                  The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed. Simply
                                  breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into prison. I'm
                                  tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We tried it in
                                  1970
                                  when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped would gather
                                  enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the voters. One of
                                  the
                                  writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was Oliver Ray
                                  Price
                                  (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality of this
                                  petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.



                                  For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of California and
                                  the
                                  people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax system was
                                  fine.
                                  HHHH

                                  You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join his
                                  organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want, go ahead
                                  but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another direction and
                                  work to change the law.



                                  Sandy



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:09 AM
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                  Sandy,

                                  I agree with you on Ross Perot and I DID vote fro him!!! Wasn't his
                                  family
                                  threatened the next time around or something and he backed away from the
                                  race?

                                  I think Badnarik believes that the IRS violates the constitution and
                                  that's
                                  what makes it illegal. I have some docs that support this belief and will
                                  try to put my hands on them and forward them.

                                  I think the LP needs a different candidate (other than Badnarik) in order
                                  to
                                  become pliable. Just my personal opinion.



                                  ---- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sandra Price
                                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:26 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                  Derek, you are correct about the lack of interest within the LP for the
                                  many
                                  issues that were part of the early days of the Libertarian movement.
                                  Their
                                  candidates have no real desire to win and get the impression they want
                                  the
                                  government to fail so we can start all over. I met Michael Badnarik on
                                  several occasions and was not impressed with his knowledge of the
                                  Constitution. He has his own version of how it should be interpreted
                                  and
                                  amended and he is simply wrong. He is also a member of a group of men
                                  who
                                  believe the IRS is against the law. It is legal and has been a part of
                                  the
                                  laws of America for many years under the authority of the House and
                                  Senate.




                                  The only way to clean up the IRS is by legal legislation done through
                                  the
                                  Congress and until Badnarik recognizes this fact, he will be dealing
                                  with
                                  many criminals who have done time in prison and will continue to be
                                  declared
                                  criminals.



                                  I will never support any candidate who refuses to play by the accepted
                                  rules
                                  of law. I am now an Independent voter and will concentrate on removing
                                  every damn congressman running in 2006. They all folded up under the
                                  Bush
                                  Administration and have shown themselves incapable of determining what
                                  is
                                  legal and correct. These fools want a Police State to be designed and
                                  run
                                  by the White House. The Bush administration wants full control over our
                                  lives and will eliminate our state rights.



                                  I am not a Christian and will refuse to live by the Bible over the
                                  authority
                                  of our individual rights as are shown in the U.S. Constitution. I do
                                  not
                                  want the Bible introduced into our schools and being an advocate of
                                  Evolution, feel it should be taught as a science. The American family
                                  has
                                  the choice of family size at this time and I resent having this choice
                                  taken
                                  away. I am not a proponent of abortion but it must remain a choice for
                                  the
                                  mother, father and clergy, not some asshole in the White House.

                                  HHHH



                                  There is a lot wrong in our government but there are legal ways of
                                  changing
                                  what we find offensive. The LP simply ignores what they find wrong and
                                  will
                                  end up supporting chaos.



                                  Many of us are searching for a third party candidate for all our
                                  elections
                                  in 2006 and 2008 because the Republicans and Democrats have fallen
                                  overboard
                                  in their leadership. We need another Ross Perot to cut through the crap
                                  the
                                  current parties are selling at this time.



                                  I have followed the FSP since the day it was introduced and they too are
                                  floundering around without a purpose. I love the concept but not the
                                  way
                                  they are wandering all over the place trying to find an agenda.



                                  Sandy Pricee has



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                                  rnment+lease&w6=Government+contract&c=6&s=150&.sig=hBipR0hmaHRBWhoc949Xow>
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Derek
                                  Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many people in this country
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                    will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                    people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                    wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                    know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                    The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                    full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                    Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                    Derek



                                    --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                    <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                    you to join his
                                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                    go ahead
                                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                    direction and
                                    > work to change the law."
                                    >
                                    > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                    stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                    premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                    >
                                    > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                    different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                    unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                    they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                    least for today...LOL
                                    >
                                    > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Sandra Price
                                    > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                    > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                    Direction
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                    legitimately and
                                    > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                    Michael
                                    > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                    inside source on
                                    > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                    are in prison.
                                    > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                    time for
                                    > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                    signs up with
                                    > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                    near future.
                                    > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                    close to
                                    > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                    believing in the
                                    > tooth fairy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                    I do
                                    > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                    gold fringe
                                    > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                    stupid silly.
                                    > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                    Simply
                                    > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                    prison. I'm
                                    > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                    tried it in 1970
                                    > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                    would gather
                                    > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                    voters. One of the
                                    > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                    Oliver Ray Price
                                    > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                    of this
                                    > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                    California and the
                                    > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                    system was fine.
                                    > HHHH
                                    >
                                    > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                    his
                                    > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                    go ahead
                                    > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                    direction and
                                    > work to change the law.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Sandy
                                  • Derek
                                    No, I do not. And I don t know if it would even be worth it to do it at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture college here in AZ, and
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 23, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      No, I do not. And I don't know if it would even be worth it to do it
                                      at my college. It is extremely small. I attend an acupuncture
                                      college here in AZ, and there are only about a dozen students in each
                                      of the 3 classes, so we only have around 36 students. Assuming that
                                      only 1/4 or so of them would be interested in becoming Libertarians,
                                      or already are Libertarians, I don't know if it is worth starting. It
                                      is such a small, specialty school, and it is an accelerated program,
                                      we barely have time for anything but studies.

                                      I know I don't have time to run a club. However, of the 3 guys in my
                                      class, ALL 3 of us do have Libertarian beliefs. We may all even be
                                      registered as Libertarians. I am a registered Lib but I am not sure
                                      about the other 2 guys.

                                      I used to attend a much larger community college, which probably would
                                      have been a better place to start a Libertarian organization. I
                                      thought about doing it then, but I was taking so many classes so I
                                      could get into Acupuncture school that I didn't have time to do it
                                      then either.

                                      But I agree, the colleges are great places to recruit. Young minds
                                      are still usually open, and at a young age, many people have an anti-
                                      establishment mindset, whereas when people get older, they tend to
                                      lean much more toward the establishment and status quo.

                                      If I had to guess what the political leanings of most of my classmates
                                      were, I would say most either probably don't care or are probably
                                      liberals or independents. Other than me and one other guy, I don't
                                      think any of my other classmates are politically active at all.

                                      How hard is it to start a Libertarian college organization? What do
                                      you have to do? I know 3 of us are Libertarians. Is that enough to
                                      make it worth it?

                                      Derek



                                      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                      <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Derek,
                                      >
                                      > Do you have an organized activist group at your college???
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Denise
                                    • Sandra Price
                                      You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups if you ever want or need a government clearance. Sandy ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                        if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                        Sandy



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                        Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                        Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                        will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                        people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                        wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                        know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                        The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                        full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                        Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                        Derek



                                        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                        <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                        you to join his
                                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                        go ahead
                                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                        direction and
                                        > work to change the law."
                                        >
                                        > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                        stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                        premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                        >
                                        > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                        different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                        unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                        they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                        least for today...LOL
                                        >
                                        > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Sandra Price
                                        > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                        > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                        Direction
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                        legitimately and
                                        > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                        Michael
                                        > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                        inside source on
                                        > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                        are in prison.
                                        > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                        time for
                                        > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                        signs up with
                                        > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                        near future.
                                        > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                        close to
                                        > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                        believing in the
                                        > tooth fairy.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                        I do
                                        > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                        gold fringe
                                        > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                        stupid silly.
                                        > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                        Simply
                                        > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                        prison. I'm
                                        > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                        tried it in 1970
                                        > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                        would gather
                                        > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                        voters. One of the
                                        > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                        Oliver Ray Price
                                        > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                        of this
                                        > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                        California and the
                                        > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                        system was fine.
                                        > HHHH
                                        >
                                        > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                        his
                                        > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                        go ahead
                                        > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                        direction and
                                        > work to change the law.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Sandy







                                        _____

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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Denise Bensusan
                                        Sandy, Have you been to the FSP site? http://www.freestateproject.org/ It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Sandy,

                                          Have you been to the FSP site?

                                          http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                          It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                          Mo offense intended of course....

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Sandra Price
                                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                          You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                          if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                          Sandy



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                          Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                          Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                          will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                          people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                          wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                          know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                          The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                          full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                          Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                          Derek



                                          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                          <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                          you to join his
                                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                          go ahead
                                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                          direction and
                                          > work to change the law."
                                          >
                                          > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                          stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                          premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                          >
                                          > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                          different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                          unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                          they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                          least for today...LOL
                                          >
                                          > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Sandra Price
                                          > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                          > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                          Direction
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                          legitimately and
                                          > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                          Michael
                                          > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                          inside source on
                                          > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                          are in prison.
                                          > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                          time for
                                          > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                          signs up with
                                          > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                          near future.
                                          > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                          close to
                                          > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                          believing in the
                                          > tooth fairy.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                          I do
                                          > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                          gold fringe
                                          > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                          stupid silly.
                                          > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                          Simply
                                          > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                          prison. I'm
                                          > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                          tried it in 1970
                                          > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                          would gather
                                          > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                          voters. One of the
                                          > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                          Oliver Ray Price
                                          > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                          of this
                                          > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                          California and the
                                          > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                          system was fine.
                                          > HHHH
                                          >
                                          > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                          his
                                          > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                          go ahead
                                          > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                          direction and
                                          > work to change the law.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Sandy







                                          _____

                                          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                                          * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                                          * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


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                                          <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                          _____



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          Yahoo! Groups Links










                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Sandra Price
                                          Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group, I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with the one
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 24, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Not for a couple of years. What I got involved in was the LP Phoenix group,
                                            I was told there are two LP groups in Arizona and I was not impressed with
                                            the one that ran the Arizona primary where Badnarik too the leadership. I
                                            am interested in getting my freedoms back and would rather not trade them
                                            for anything. If every member of the LP had voted for their candidates,
                                            there would have been a greater turnout in 2004. They are not serious! So
                                            I will go with the Independents. I have a doctor's appointment and will
                                            check the FSP later on.



                                            Sandy



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Bensusan
                                            Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:22 AM
                                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                            Sandy,

                                            Have you been to the FSP site?

                                            http://www.freestateproject.org/

                                            It appears to me that the FSP is oriented toward Libertarianism and does
                                            support Libertarian candidates. This group is an FSP group....so I am
                                            wondering about your position concerning Libertarianism???

                                            Mo offense intended of course....

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Sandra Price
                                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:03 AM
                                            Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction


                                            You are quite right. I do not recommend even signing up with these groups
                                            if you ever want or need a government clearance.



                                            Sandy



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Derek
                                            Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 5:43 PM
                                            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New Direction



                                            Just the belief that the IRS and the income tax is unconstitutional
                                            will NOT get you put into prison. Not paying your taxes will. Many
                                            people in this country believe that the IRS is unconstitutional and
                                            wrong, etc., but still they grudgingly pay their taxes because they
                                            know that they still have to, and they do not want to go to jail.
                                            The only ones I have seen go to jail are the ones that join these
                                            full fledged "tax protestor" groups and quit paying taxes.

                                            Big difference between believing it ain't right and not paying.

                                            Derek



                                            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Denise Bensusan"
                                            <denise.bensusan@f...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Sandy said: "You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get
                                            you to join his
                                            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                            go ahead
                                            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                            direction and
                                            > work to change the law."
                                            >
                                            > Just to clarify...I have not been taken in by ANYONE! I simply
                                            stated that I have some documents and information that support the
                                            premise that the IRS is indeed in violation of the Constitution.
                                            >
                                            > As with everything.....an individual can interpret issues in
                                            different ways. Just because someone believes that the IRS is
                                            unconstitutional does not make them a criminal and does not mean
                                            they are headed for the pokey. Free speech is still legal...well at
                                            least for today...LOL
                                            >
                                            > Great points however...thanks for sharing them.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Sandra Price
                                            > To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:59 AM
                                            > Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Searching for a New
                                            Direction
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Denise. Believe me when I tell you that the IRS is working
                                            legitimately and
                                            > honestly within the Constitution. The men who are influencing
                                            Michael
                                            > Badnarik will soon see years of federal prison. I have an
                                            inside source on
                                            > this information and will share it with you when the last two
                                            are in prison.
                                            > Badnarik is very aware of his association with men who have done
                                            time for
                                            > extortion and he just walks away from the whole thing. If any
                                            signs up with
                                            > these men, you will have a potential criminal problem in the
                                            near future.
                                            > Why take a chance? Sign nothing on this subject!!! It is very
                                            close to
                                            > coming to a halt. I have warned many LP members to stop
                                            believing in the
                                            > tooth fairy.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I despise the IRS and I do not work for the federal government.
                                            I do
                                            > recognize that sitting around spreading rumors that some stupid
                                            gold fringe
                                            > on our flag indicates a problem within the courts is just plan
                                            stupid silly.
                                            > The IRS is legal but it doesn't mean the laws can't be changed.
                                            Simply
                                            > breaking the law as a disgruntled American will get you into
                                            prison. I'm
                                            > tired of warning you people. Change the law legally!!! We
                                            tried it in 1970
                                            > when we formed the Liberty Amendment petition that we hoped
                                            would gather
                                            > enough signatures to put the whole IRS system before the
                                            voters. One of the
                                            > writers of this petition was Harry Browne and the other was
                                            Oliver Ray Price
                                            > (my husband) and we had a dozen attorneys go over the legality
                                            of this
                                            > petition and it was written and rewritten a dozen times.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > For 6 months we took this petition all over the state of
                                            California and the
                                            > people were disinterested in the action and thought the tax
                                            system was fine.
                                            > HHHH
                                            >
                                            > You've been taken in by a convicted criminal to get you to join
                                            his
                                            > organization and in breaking the law. If that is what you want,
                                            go ahead
                                            > but if you want to stay out of the pokey you will go another
                                            direction and
                                            > work to change the law.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Sandy







                                            _____

                                            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                                            * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                                            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>



                                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                            _____



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            Yahoo! Groups Links










                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            _____

                                            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                                            * Visit your group "arizonaporcupines
                                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arizonaporcupines> " on the web.


                                            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            <mailto:arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                                            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                                            _____



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