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Constitution's limits [was: I'm new to this forum]

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  • olehenry1
    ... My entire ... the D.C. ... years, ... programs to ... coast to ... God into ... to tell ... believe ... If you read the Constitution carefully (not
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 17, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
      My entire
      > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
      the D.C.
      > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
      years,
      > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
      programs to
      > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
      coast to
      > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
      God" into
      > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
      to tell
      > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
      believe
      > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

      If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
      not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
      collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
      as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
      That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
      ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
      must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

      Section 8 Powers of Congress:
      "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
      Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
      Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
      Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

      This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
      kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
      this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
      when 51% of voters approve.

      Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
      a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
      where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
      laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
      tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
      Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
      history, more or less.

      > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
      America and
      > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
      our own
      > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
      European
      > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
      had
      > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
      just the
      > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
      the
      > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

      As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
      They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

      > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
      (Public
      > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
      from these
      > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
      new
      > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
      lived for
      > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
      was made
      > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
      with the new
      > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
      to suit
      > what they could teach.
      >
      >
      >
      > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
      slowdown
      > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
      bidding
      > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
      beginning to
      > decline.
      >
      >
      >
      > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
      grade and
      > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
      learn about
      > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
      hell out
      > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
      > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
      to a
      > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
      couldn't get
      > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
      We had no
      > television in the home but a large selection of books on
      everything. I
      > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
      to read to
      > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
      in
      > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
      science
      > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
      >
      >
      >
      > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
      when in
      > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
      like
      > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
      of the
      > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
      for
      > them.
      >
      >
      >
      > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
      Americans had
      > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
      essential
      > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
      responsibility for
      > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
      working for
      > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
      other
      > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
      being
      > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

      Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
      with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

      > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
      searching
      > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
      The
      > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
      > redundant government.


      IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
      especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
      to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

      > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
      eye on
      > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
      personal
      > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
      office. I do
      > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
      freedom
      > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
      Arizona into
      > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
      >
      >
      >
      > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
      they are
      > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
      did the
      > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
      It has
      > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
      to get out
      > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
      >
      >
      >
      > Sandy

      We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
      protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
      each Individual's actual freedoms?

      Jack
    • christian peper
      for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 17, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination (both to the founders and god). there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear sin. till that time I will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: olehenry1
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:58 PM
        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Constitution's limits [was: I'm new to this forum]


        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
        My entire
        > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
        the D.C.
        > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
        years,
        > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
        programs to
        > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
        coast to
        > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
        God" into
        > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
        to tell
        > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
        believe
        > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

        If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
        not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
        collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
        as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
        That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
        ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
        must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

        Section 8 Powers of Congress:
        "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
        Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
        Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
        Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

        This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
        kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
        this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
        when 51% of voters approve.

        Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
        a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
        where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
        laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
        tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
        Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
        history, more or less.

        > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
        America and
        > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
        our own
        > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
        European
        > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
        had
        > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
        just the
        > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
        the
        > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

        As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
        They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

        > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
        (Public
        > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
        from these
        > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
        new
        > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
        lived for
        > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
        was made
        > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
        with the new
        > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
        to suit
        > what they could teach.
        >
        >
        >
        > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
        slowdown
        > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
        bidding
        > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
        beginning to
        > decline.
        >
        >
        >
        > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
        grade and
        > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
        learn about
        > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
        hell out
        > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
        > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
        to a
        > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
        couldn't get
        > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
        We had no
        > television in the home but a large selection of books on
        everything. I
        > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
        to read to
        > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
        in
        > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
        science
        > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
        >
        >
        >
        > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
        when in
        > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
        like
        > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
        of the
        > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
        for
        > them.
        >
        >
        >
        > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
        Americans had
        > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
        essential
        > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
        responsibility for
        > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
        working for
        > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
        other
        > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
        being
        > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

        Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
        with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

        > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
        searching
        > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
        The
        > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
        > redundant government.


        IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
        especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
        to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

        > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
        eye on
        > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
        personal
        > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
        office. I do
        > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
        freedom
        > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
        Arizona into
        > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
        >
        >
        >
        > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
        they are
        > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
        did the
        > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
        It has
        > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
        to get out
        > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
        >
        >
        >
        > Sandy

        We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
        protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
        each Individual's actual freedoms?

        Jack




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • olehenry1
        ... items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 25, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
          <cbp429@h...> wrote:
          > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
          items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
          viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
          an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

          Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

          Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

          "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

          The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
          Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
          Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
          Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
          To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
          To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
          States, and with the Indian Tribes;
          To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
          the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
          To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
          fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
          To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
          current Coin of the United States;
          To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
          To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
          limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
          respective Writings and Discoveries;
          To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
          To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
          Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
          To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
          concerning Captures on Land and Water;
          To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
          Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
          To provide and maintain a Navy;
          To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
          Forces;
          To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
          Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
          To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
          for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
          the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
          Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
          Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
          To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
          District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
          particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
          the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
          over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
          State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
          Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
          To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
          into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
          this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
          Department or Officer thereof."
          ******

          The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
          document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
          government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
          a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
          which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

          What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
          defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
          out of context.

          Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
          authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
          this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

          To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
          you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
          suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
          confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
          effect.

          The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
          ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
          of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
          100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

          Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
          nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
          frustratingly retarded to me.

          Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
          supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
          you'd like to live.

          >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
          >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

          Define sin.
          Define system. Every system?
          What will make it clear for you?
          Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
          negative to you.

          Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
          smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
          warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
          encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

          Jack
        • christian peper
          My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 25, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not fiscally) liberal. jeasus would support legal drugs, gay marriage etc. as for the Constitution, yes, it was a bit vague and subject to interpretation like the bible but the overall thrust of it is without a drought very liberal. the the bible is also very freeing and libertarian: living under the law of love and not the written law (see the sermon on the mount). do you know that Jesus baptized with hemp oil? best wishes, chistian
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: olehenry1
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:46 PM
            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Constitution's limits


            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
            <cbp429@h...> wrote:
            > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
            items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
            viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
            an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

            Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

            Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

            "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

            The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
            Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
            Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
            Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
            To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
            To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
            States, and with the Indian Tribes;
            To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
            the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
            To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
            fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
            To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
            current Coin of the United States;
            To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
            To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
            limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
            respective Writings and Discoveries;
            To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
            To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
            Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
            To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
            concerning Captures on Land and Water;
            To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
            Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
            To provide and maintain a Navy;
            To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
            Forces;
            To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
            Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
            To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
            for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
            the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
            Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
            Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
            To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
            District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
            particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
            the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
            over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
            State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
            Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
            To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
            into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
            this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
            Department or Officer thereof."
            ******

            The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
            document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
            government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
            a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
            which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

            What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
            defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
            out of context.

            Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
            authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
            this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

            To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
            you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
            suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
            confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
            effect.

            The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
            ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
            of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
            100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

            Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
            nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
            frustratingly retarded to me.

            Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
            supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
            you'd like to live.

            >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
            >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

            Define sin.
            Define system. Every system?
            What will make it clear for you?
            Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
            negative to you.

            Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
            smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
            warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
            encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

            Jack




            SPONSORED LINKS Politics Government American politics
            Conservative politics Organizational politics Associates


            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            a.. Visit your group "arizonaporcupines" on the web.

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            arizonaporcupines-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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