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  • olehenry1
    Hi sandy, We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate this and are willing
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 8 11:41 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi sandy,

      We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the
      importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate
      this and are willing to patiently communicate with me.

      Additionally, I have no desire to win a conversation. If my
      sentences appear to be charged with mindless emotion, please do not
      take offense. There may actually be some good points hidden in the
      passion (feel free to ignore what you see as rotten fruit and
      instead, pick the good stuff).

      --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
      wrote:
      > Olehenry1. You have your freedom not to vote or get involved in
      anyway with
      > local or federal government decisions but then you have no right to
      complain
      > about the government's decisions.

      I feel it is "right" of me to complain (I assume you mean critique,
      analyze, disassemble scientifically as I don't practice complaining
      since rarely do I feel great suffering) about actions taken by men of
      the "government club". I feel it is equally right of me to critique
      past actions of ANY organizations as well as individuals so that I
      may learn and possibly relate ideas with others.

      I've heard the one-liner, "If ya Don't vote, you have no right to
      complain about what they vote for."
      Incorrect.
      If 51% voted to kill the 25% of voters who happened to vote "yea" for
      their lives, this 25% have a right to complain. If that 51% also
      voted to kill the 24% of nonvoters, those nonvoters have no right to
      complain?

      Why?

      >I personally have had some wonderful victories in dealing with
      >heavy-handed politicians when I lived in California and we managed
      >to put controls on our property taxes when many of our seniors, on
      >fixed incomes, were forced to sell their homes. It took hard work
      >from one end of California to the other but the voters themselves
      >put a limit on the taxes they had to pay. We forced the State to
      >act fiscally instead of their never-ending billing the residents of
      >the states to pay for services we did not want.

      Superficially (without more information), I commend your efforts.
      I do have a problem however with your use of "we". I assume you mean
      ALL Californians, or maybe ALL seniors, or maybe ALL female
      Californians, or maybe ALL of your friends... did your new law which
      was enforced on ALL Californians satisfy ALL Californians?

      >I am a Fiscal Conservative in the same way that Barry Goldwater was
      >running his campaign in 1964. He felt the government had no place
      >in our education standards, our personal choices, or our family
      >values. He wanted the Federal powers scaled back to fit the job
      >description in the Constitution.

      One problem I see generally with the Constitution is simply this: in
      order to get where we are today, we had to have the Constitution as a
      starting point. I have proof that the Constitution is the "1st
      cause" of where we are today...proof: a 200+ year case study. :)

      >At this time, the Feds issue mandates for the States to follow and
      >these are often redundant and too costly for the tax payers to pay.
      >The Federal government has one single purpose and that is to protect
      >American citizens from foreign attack; which to me, means protecting
      >our borders and all forms of transportation entering the country.
      >They have failed on this due to a heavy influence of Social issues
      >that they are not equipped to handle.

      >In America we all have our own individual standards (moral and
      >ethical) and the Federal Government has no business setting their
      >own social standards on any of us. The States each have their own
      >Constitution where the people themselves have agreed to when these
      >Constitutions were ratified. If the people want, they can change
      >portions of the laws through elections.

      Again, this use of "we" drives home an important point. "We"
      Americans all think alike...but if not, then "we" New Hampshire
      residents all think alike...but maybe not, so then we City of Concord
      residents all think alike...well, guess not...so then...

      Where do you draw the line? Why can't a Federal Gov't make decisions
      for "we"? Why is this different than a State Gov't making decisions
      for "we"? and a city gov't, etc....

      >We have elected Congressional Representatives who have totally
      >ignored our State Constitutions and in doing so have destroyed the
      >10th Amendment of our U.S. Constitution. Our State Rights are being
      >eroded by men like Jeff Flake, Trent Franks, J.D. Hayworth, Shaddeg
      >and both of our Senators in an effort to bring their own religious
      >doctrines into our lives. These men have run on Conservative labels
      >and in fact are little religious dictators trying to legislate our
      >personal choices. There is no expensive federal bill they will not
      >vote for if the King of the Hill (G.W. Bush) requests it. In my
      >point of view, they are not Conservative but simply religious wackos
      >who will not allow our freedoms to remain our own. I would like to
      >see them all thrown out of office in 2006!

      I see them all as doing exactly what they should do given the job
      description. Represent 280 million individuals???? Please, that's
      ubsurd. Spend a few hours questioning why it makes sense to ask 2
      senators to act in the "best interest of each individual of Arizona",
      and so on down the line of Representatives.

      My conclusion fresh into college was, "that's impossible!" Maybe
      what these reps should be doing (and are actually doing) is: attempt
      to discover what is best for every human, and then pass a law to
      ensure they each do so. At the time, it sounded doable to me. Now
      however, I recognize the fact that NO HUMAN ON EARTH KNOWS ME LIKE I
      KNOW ME. Let me decide...for me!

      >My definition of a Fiscal Conservative is as follows: A desire for
      >limited government; individual freedoms guaranteed and personal
      >responsibilities given back to all Americans. Anything less than
      >this would be unacceptable to me. We had these freedoms when I was
      >growing up and they are now being removed by an intrusive form of
      >government that would have been totally unacceptable during the
      >writing of the Constitution.

      Understood.

      >Where to start on waste and abuse of our taxes? Unless you follow
      >the actions of the U.S. Congress, you will never know. Do the
      >research and you will see the billions of dollars that are spent on
      >pork issues simply to buy the votes of the U.S. Congress members.

      Any substance that I earn which is forcably removed from my
      possession becomes pork, IMO. Withholding taxes using the threat of
      jail time (USC Title 26) is that force. Assuming authority over
      individuals, like a god, the US government and State governments give
      those with the guns the power/force to do as they "see fit".
      See fit = public's interest.

      > Sandy Price

      Nice to meet you electronically, Sandy.

      Jack
      "skip the vote!"
    • Sandra Price
      Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950. My entire family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from the D.C. right
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 9 5:52 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950. My entire
        family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from the D.C.
        right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early years,
        the more people who immigrated to America demanded government programs to
        take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from coast to
        coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under God" into
        our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step to tell
        the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could believe
        that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.



        After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to America and
        they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that our own
        scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of European
        scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools had
        begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was just the
        first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would the
        Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?



        When the immigrants put their children in our government schools (Public
        schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired from these
        schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the new
        immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had lived for
        generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics was made
        and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up with the new
        math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum to suit
        what they could teach.



        A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a slowdown
        and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were bidding
        for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was beginning to
        decline.



        The key to the success of America is academic education from first grade and
        it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to learn about
        the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the hell out
        of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
        neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent to a
        private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I couldn't get
        enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children. We had no
        television in the home but a large selection of books on everything. I
        would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest to read to
        the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books in
        literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on science
        fiction to broaden their view of t he world.



        Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even when in
        highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things like
        agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front of the
        boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy for
        them.



        We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of Americans had
        folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is essential
        to become proactive in our lives and take the personal responsibility for
        what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively working for
        American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of other
        countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are being
        squelched by a corrupt form of government.



        We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively searching
        for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives. The
        whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
        redundant government.



        So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close eye on
        my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my personal
        decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into office. I do
        know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for freedom
        and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn Arizona into
        a mud room for the rest of the nation.



        FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and they are
        working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I did the
        same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools. It has
        paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others to get out
        of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.



        Sandy



        -----Original Message-----
        From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of olehenry1
        Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:42 PM
        To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: I'm new to this forum



        Hi sandy,

        We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the
        importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate
        this and are willing to patiently communicate with me.

        Additionally, I have no desire to win a conversation. If my
        sentences appear to be charged with mindless emotion, please do not
        take offense. There may actually be some good points hidden in the
        passion (feel free to ignore what you see as rotten fruit and
        instead, pick the good stuff).

        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        > Olehenry1. You have your freedom not to vote or get involved in
        anyway with
        > local or federal government decisions but then you have no right to
        complain
        > about the government's decisions.

        I feel it is "right" of me to complain (I assume you mean critique,
        analyze, disassemble scientifically as I don't practice complaining
        since rarely do I feel great suffering) about actions taken by men of
        the "government club". I feel it is equally right of me to critique
        past actions of ANY organizations as well as individuals so that I
        may learn and possibly relate ideas with others.

        I've heard the one-liner, "If ya Don't vote, you have no right to
        complain about what they vote for."
        Incorrect.
        If 51% voted to kill the 25% of voters who happened to vote "yea" for
        their lives, this 25% have a right to complain. If that 51% also
        voted to kill the 24% of nonvoters, those nonvoters have no right to
        complain?

        Why?

        >I personally have had some wonderful victories in dealing with
        >heavy-handed politicians when I lived in California and we managed
        >to put controls on our property taxes when many of our seniors, on
        >fixed incomes, were forced to sell their homes. It took hard work
        >from one end of California to the other but the voters themselves
        >put a limit on the taxes they had to pay. We forced the State to
        >act fiscally instead of their never-ending billing the residents of
        >the states to pay for services we did not want.

        Superficially (without more information), I commend your efforts.
        I do have a problem however with your use of "we". I assume you mean
        ALL Californians, or maybe ALL seniors, or maybe ALL female
        Californians, or maybe ALL of your friends... did your new law which
        was enforced on ALL Californians satisfy ALL Californians?

        >I am a Fiscal Conservative in the same way that Barry Goldwater was
        >running his campaign in 1964. He felt the government had no place
        >in our education standards, our personal choices, or our family
        >values. He wanted the Federal powers scaled back to fit the job
        >description in the Constitution.

        One problem I see generally with the Constitution is simply this: in
        order to get where we are today, we had to have the Constitution as a
        starting point. I have proof that the Constitution is the "1st
        cause" of where we are today...proof: a 200+ year case study. :)

        >At this time, the Feds issue mandates for the States to follow and
        >these are often redundant and too costly for the tax payers to pay.
        >The Federal government has one single purpose and that is to protect
        >American citizens from foreign attack; which to me, means protecting
        >our borders and all forms of transportation entering the country.
        >They have failed on this due to a heavy influence of Social issues
        >that they are not equipped to handle.

        >In America we all have our own individual standards (moral and
        >ethical) and the Federal Government has no business setting their
        >own social standards on any of us. The States each have their own
        >Constitution where the people themselves have agreed to when these
        >Constitutions were ratified. If the people want, they can change
        >portions of the laws through elections.

        Again, this use of "we" drives home an important point. "We"
        Americans all think alike...but if not, then "we" New Hampshire
        residents all think alike...but maybe not, so then we City of Concord
        residents all think alike...well, guess not...so then...

        Where do you draw the line? Why can't a Federal Gov't make decisions
        for "we"? Why is this different than a State Gov't making decisions
        for "we"? and a city gov't, etc....

        >We have elected Congressional Representatives who have totally
        >ignored our State Constitutions and in doing so have destroyed the
        >10th Amendment of our U.S. Constitution. Our State Rights are being
        >eroded by men like Jeff Flake, Trent Franks, J.D. Hayworth, Shaddeg
        >and both of our Senators in an effort to bring their own religious
        >doctrines into our lives. These men have run on Conservative labels
        >and in fact are little religious dictators trying to legislate our
        >personal choices. There is no expensive federal bill they will not
        >vote for if the King of the Hill (G.W. Bush) requests it. In my
        >point of view, they are not Conservative but simply religious wackos
        >who will not allow our freedoms to remain our own. I would like to
        >see them all thrown out of office in 2006!

        I see them all as doing exactly what they should do given the job
        description. Represent 280 million individuals???? Please, that's
        ubsurd. Spend a few hours questioning why it makes sense to ask 2
        senators to act in the "best interest of each individual of Arizona",
        and so on down the line of Representatives.

        My conclusion fresh into college was, "that's impossible!" Maybe
        what these reps should be doing (and are actually doing) is: attempt
        to discover what is best for every human, and then pass a law to
        ensure they each do so. At the time, it sounded doable to me. Now
        however, I recognize the fact that NO HUMAN ON EARTH KNOWS ME LIKE I
        KNOW ME. Let me decide...for me!

        >My definition of a Fiscal Conservative is as follows: A desire for
        >limited government; individual freedoms guaranteed and personal
        >responsibilities given back to all Americans. Anything less than
        >this would be unacceptable to me. We had these freedoms when I was
        >growing up and they are now being removed by an intrusive form of
        >government that would have been totally unacceptable during the
        >writing of the Constitution.

        Understood.

        >Where to start on waste and abuse of our taxes? Unless you follow
        >the actions of the U.S. Congress, you will never know. Do the
        >research and you will see the billions of dollars that are spent on
        >pork issues simply to buy the votes of the U.S. Congress members.

        Any substance that I earn which is forcably removed from my
        possession becomes pork, IMO. Withholding taxes using the threat of
        jail time (USC Title 26) is that force. Assuming authority over
        individuals, like a god, the US government and State governments give
        those with the guns the power/force to do as they "see fit".
        See fit = public's interest.

        > Sandy Price

        Nice to meet you electronically, Sandy.

        Jack
        "skip the vote!"





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • olehenry1
        ... My entire ... the D.C. ... years, ... programs to ... coast to ... God into ... to tell ... believe ... If you read the Constitution carefully (not
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 17 4:58 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
          wrote:
          > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
          My entire
          > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
          the D.C.
          > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
          years,
          > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
          programs to
          > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
          coast to
          > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
          God" into
          > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
          to tell
          > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
          believe
          > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

          If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
          not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
          collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
          as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
          That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
          ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
          must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

          Section 8 Powers of Congress:
          "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
          Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
          Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
          Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

          This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
          kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
          this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
          when 51% of voters approve.

          Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
          a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
          where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
          laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
          tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
          Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
          history, more or less.

          > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
          America and
          > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
          our own
          > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
          European
          > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
          had
          > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
          just the
          > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
          the
          > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

          As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
          They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

          > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
          (Public
          > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
          from these
          > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
          new
          > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
          lived for
          > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
          was made
          > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
          with the new
          > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
          to suit
          > what they could teach.
          >
          >
          >
          > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
          slowdown
          > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
          bidding
          > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
          beginning to
          > decline.
          >
          >
          >
          > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
          grade and
          > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
          learn about
          > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
          hell out
          > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
          > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
          to a
          > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
          couldn't get
          > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
          We had no
          > television in the home but a large selection of books on
          everything. I
          > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
          to read to
          > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
          in
          > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
          science
          > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
          >
          >
          >
          > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
          when in
          > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
          like
          > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
          of the
          > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
          for
          > them.
          >
          >
          >
          > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
          Americans had
          > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
          essential
          > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
          responsibility for
          > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
          working for
          > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
          other
          > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
          being
          > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

          Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
          with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

          > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
          searching
          > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
          The
          > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
          > redundant government.


          IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
          especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
          to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

          > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
          eye on
          > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
          personal
          > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
          office. I do
          > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
          freedom
          > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
          Arizona into
          > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
          >
          >
          >
          > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
          they are
          > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
          did the
          > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
          It has
          > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
          to get out
          > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
          >
          >
          >
          > Sandy

          We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
          protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
          each Individual's actual freedoms?

          Jack
        • christian peper
          for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 17 7:34 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination (both to the founders and god). there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear sin. till that time I will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: olehenry1
            To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:58 PM
            Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Constitution's limits [was: I'm new to this forum]


            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
            wrote:
            > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
            My entire
            > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
            the D.C.
            > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
            years,
            > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
            programs to
            > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
            coast to
            > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
            God" into
            > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
            to tell
            > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
            believe
            > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

            If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
            not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
            collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
            as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
            That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
            ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
            must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

            Section 8 Powers of Congress:
            "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
            Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
            Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
            Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

            This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
            kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
            this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
            when 51% of voters approve.

            Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
            a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
            where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
            laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
            tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
            Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
            history, more or less.

            > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
            America and
            > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
            our own
            > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
            European
            > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
            had
            > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
            just the
            > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
            the
            > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

            As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
            They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

            > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
            (Public
            > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
            from these
            > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
            new
            > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
            lived for
            > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
            was made
            > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
            with the new
            > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
            to suit
            > what they could teach.
            >
            >
            >
            > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
            slowdown
            > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
            bidding
            > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
            beginning to
            > decline.
            >
            >
            >
            > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
            grade and
            > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
            learn about
            > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
            hell out
            > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
            > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
            to a
            > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
            couldn't get
            > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
            We had no
            > television in the home but a large selection of books on
            everything. I
            > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
            to read to
            > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
            in
            > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
            science
            > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
            >
            >
            >
            > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
            when in
            > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
            like
            > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
            of the
            > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
            for
            > them.
            >
            >
            >
            > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
            Americans had
            > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
            essential
            > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
            responsibility for
            > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
            working for
            > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
            other
            > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
            being
            > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

            Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
            with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

            > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
            searching
            > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
            The
            > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
            > redundant government.


            IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
            especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
            to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

            > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
            eye on
            > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
            personal
            > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
            office. I do
            > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
            freedom
            > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
            Arizona into
            > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
            >
            >
            >
            > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
            they are
            > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
            did the
            > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
            It has
            > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
            to get out
            > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
            >
            >
            >
            > Sandy

            We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
            protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
            each Individual's actual freedoms?

            Jack




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • olehenry1
            ... items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 25 11:46 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
              <cbp429@h...> wrote:
              > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
              items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
              viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
              an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

              Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

              Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

              "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

              The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
              Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
              Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
              Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
              To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
              To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
              States, and with the Indian Tribes;
              To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
              the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
              To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
              fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
              To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
              current Coin of the United States;
              To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
              To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
              limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
              respective Writings and Discoveries;
              To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
              To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
              Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
              To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
              concerning Captures on Land and Water;
              To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
              Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
              To provide and maintain a Navy;
              To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
              Forces;
              To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
              Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
              To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
              for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
              the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
              Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
              Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
              To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
              District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
              particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
              the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
              over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
              State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
              Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
              To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
              into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
              this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
              Department or Officer thereof."
              ******

              The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
              document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
              government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
              a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
              which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

              What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
              defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
              out of context.

              Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
              authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
              this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

              To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
              you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
              suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
              confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
              effect.

              The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
              ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
              of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
              100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

              Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
              nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
              frustratingly retarded to me.

              Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
              supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
              you'd like to live.

              >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
              >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

              Define sin.
              Define system. Every system?
              What will make it clear for you?
              Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
              negative to you.

              Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
              smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
              warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
              encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

              Jack
            • christian peper
              My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 25 2:45 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not fiscally) liberal. jeasus would support legal drugs, gay marriage etc. as for the Constitution, yes, it was a bit vague and subject to interpretation like the bible but the overall thrust of it is without a drought very liberal. the the bible is also very freeing and libertarian: living under the law of love and not the written law (see the sermon on the mount). do you know that Jesus baptized with hemp oil? best wishes, chistian
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: olehenry1
                To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:46 PM
                Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Constitution's limits


                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
                <cbp429@h...> wrote:
                > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
                items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
                viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
                an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

                Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

                Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

                "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

                The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
                Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
                Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
                Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
                To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
                To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
                States, and with the Indian Tribes;
                To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
                the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
                To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
                fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
                To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
                current Coin of the United States;
                To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
                To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
                limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
                respective Writings and Discoveries;
                To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
                To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
                Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
                To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
                concerning Captures on Land and Water;
                To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
                Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
                To provide and maintain a Navy;
                To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
                Forces;
                To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
                Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
                To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
                for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
                the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
                Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
                Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
                To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
                District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
                particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
                the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
                over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
                State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
                Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
                To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
                into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
                this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
                Department or Officer thereof."
                ******

                The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
                document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
                government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
                a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
                which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

                What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
                defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
                out of context.

                Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
                authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
                this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

                To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
                you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
                suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
                confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
                effect.

                The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
                ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
                of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
                100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

                Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
                nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
                frustratingly retarded to me.

                Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
                supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
                you'd like to live.

                >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
                >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

                Define sin.
                Define system. Every system?
                What will make it clear for you?
                Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
                negative to you.

                Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
                smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
                warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
                encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

                Jack




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                Conservative politics Organizational politics Associates


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