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Re: I'm new to this forum

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  • olehenry1
    ... I m not completely familiar with the terms. Entire list meaning it was sent to the yahoo group forum or did I accidentally send every member a reply
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 8, 2005
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      "Rick LaPoint" <rick@o...> wrote:
      > Of course, you realize that you sent this to the entire list.
      > Not that there is any harm in such an action, as in-action seems to
      >be the rule of the day in these parts.

      I'm not completely familiar with the terms. "Entire list" meaning it
      was sent to the yahoo group forum or did I accidentally send every
      member a reply (reply-to-all) in addition?

      > I won't address those points you directed at Sandy, but am curious
      >about a couple of things you stated in your post...
      >
      > What part of Indiana are you from? My wife is currently 'spending
      >time' with her family in Evansville, and I may move there for a
      >spell as part of my trek toward NH.

      Grew up age 3-19 in Fort Wayne, schooling in Lafayette and Muncie
      from 19-23.

      > How do you like AZ thus far? Being from NH, I hate it myself...
      >quite statist IMO, to put it lightly.

      Compared to what I've read of NH and a few other states, I would hate
      AZ as well. However, I've noted in my journal, "politics is
      politics, whether yer in Alabamy or Big City New York".
      Either you have "crooks" spending your confiscated tax dollars or you
      have "honest abe" spending it. Regardless, they spend it in
      the "public's interest". Who are these "public"?

      I love the weather.

      > Welcome aboard!
      >
      > rick

      Thanks rick. When do you head off toward the East?
      Jack
    • olehenry1
      Hi sandy, We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate this and are willing
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 8, 2005
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        Hi sandy,

        We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the
        importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate
        this and are willing to patiently communicate with me.

        Additionally, I have no desire to win a conversation. If my
        sentences appear to be charged with mindless emotion, please do not
        take offense. There may actually be some good points hidden in the
        passion (feel free to ignore what you see as rotten fruit and
        instead, pick the good stuff).

        --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
        wrote:
        > Olehenry1. You have your freedom not to vote or get involved in
        anyway with
        > local or federal government decisions but then you have no right to
        complain
        > about the government's decisions.

        I feel it is "right" of me to complain (I assume you mean critique,
        analyze, disassemble scientifically as I don't practice complaining
        since rarely do I feel great suffering) about actions taken by men of
        the "government club". I feel it is equally right of me to critique
        past actions of ANY organizations as well as individuals so that I
        may learn and possibly relate ideas with others.

        I've heard the one-liner, "If ya Don't vote, you have no right to
        complain about what they vote for."
        Incorrect.
        If 51% voted to kill the 25% of voters who happened to vote "yea" for
        their lives, this 25% have a right to complain. If that 51% also
        voted to kill the 24% of nonvoters, those nonvoters have no right to
        complain?

        Why?

        >I personally have had some wonderful victories in dealing with
        >heavy-handed politicians when I lived in California and we managed
        >to put controls on our property taxes when many of our seniors, on
        >fixed incomes, were forced to sell their homes. It took hard work
        >from one end of California to the other but the voters themselves
        >put a limit on the taxes they had to pay. We forced the State to
        >act fiscally instead of their never-ending billing the residents of
        >the states to pay for services we did not want.

        Superficially (without more information), I commend your efforts.
        I do have a problem however with your use of "we". I assume you mean
        ALL Californians, or maybe ALL seniors, or maybe ALL female
        Californians, or maybe ALL of your friends... did your new law which
        was enforced on ALL Californians satisfy ALL Californians?

        >I am a Fiscal Conservative in the same way that Barry Goldwater was
        >running his campaign in 1964. He felt the government had no place
        >in our education standards, our personal choices, or our family
        >values. He wanted the Federal powers scaled back to fit the job
        >description in the Constitution.

        One problem I see generally with the Constitution is simply this: in
        order to get where we are today, we had to have the Constitution as a
        starting point. I have proof that the Constitution is the "1st
        cause" of where we are today...proof: a 200+ year case study. :)

        >At this time, the Feds issue mandates for the States to follow and
        >these are often redundant and too costly for the tax payers to pay.
        >The Federal government has one single purpose and that is to protect
        >American citizens from foreign attack; which to me, means protecting
        >our borders and all forms of transportation entering the country.
        >They have failed on this due to a heavy influence of Social issues
        >that they are not equipped to handle.

        >In America we all have our own individual standards (moral and
        >ethical) and the Federal Government has no business setting their
        >own social standards on any of us. The States each have their own
        >Constitution where the people themselves have agreed to when these
        >Constitutions were ratified. If the people want, they can change
        >portions of the laws through elections.

        Again, this use of "we" drives home an important point. "We"
        Americans all think alike...but if not, then "we" New Hampshire
        residents all think alike...but maybe not, so then we City of Concord
        residents all think alike...well, guess not...so then...

        Where do you draw the line? Why can't a Federal Gov't make decisions
        for "we"? Why is this different than a State Gov't making decisions
        for "we"? and a city gov't, etc....

        >We have elected Congressional Representatives who have totally
        >ignored our State Constitutions and in doing so have destroyed the
        >10th Amendment of our U.S. Constitution. Our State Rights are being
        >eroded by men like Jeff Flake, Trent Franks, J.D. Hayworth, Shaddeg
        >and both of our Senators in an effort to bring their own religious
        >doctrines into our lives. These men have run on Conservative labels
        >and in fact are little religious dictators trying to legislate our
        >personal choices. There is no expensive federal bill they will not
        >vote for if the King of the Hill (G.W. Bush) requests it. In my
        >point of view, they are not Conservative but simply religious wackos
        >who will not allow our freedoms to remain our own. I would like to
        >see them all thrown out of office in 2006!

        I see them all as doing exactly what they should do given the job
        description. Represent 280 million individuals???? Please, that's
        ubsurd. Spend a few hours questioning why it makes sense to ask 2
        senators to act in the "best interest of each individual of Arizona",
        and so on down the line of Representatives.

        My conclusion fresh into college was, "that's impossible!" Maybe
        what these reps should be doing (and are actually doing) is: attempt
        to discover what is best for every human, and then pass a law to
        ensure they each do so. At the time, it sounded doable to me. Now
        however, I recognize the fact that NO HUMAN ON EARTH KNOWS ME LIKE I
        KNOW ME. Let me decide...for me!

        >My definition of a Fiscal Conservative is as follows: A desire for
        >limited government; individual freedoms guaranteed and personal
        >responsibilities given back to all Americans. Anything less than
        >this would be unacceptable to me. We had these freedoms when I was
        >growing up and they are now being removed by an intrusive form of
        >government that would have been totally unacceptable during the
        >writing of the Constitution.

        Understood.

        >Where to start on waste and abuse of our taxes? Unless you follow
        >the actions of the U.S. Congress, you will never know. Do the
        >research and you will see the billions of dollars that are spent on
        >pork issues simply to buy the votes of the U.S. Congress members.

        Any substance that I earn which is forcably removed from my
        possession becomes pork, IMO. Withholding taxes using the threat of
        jail time (USC Title 26) is that force. Assuming authority over
        individuals, like a god, the US government and State governments give
        those with the guns the power/force to do as they "see fit".
        See fit = public's interest.

        > Sandy Price

        Nice to meet you electronically, Sandy.

        Jack
        "skip the vote!"
      • Sandra Price
        Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950. My entire family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from the D.C. right
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 9, 2005
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          Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950. My entire
          family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from the D.C.
          right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early years,
          the more people who immigrated to America demanded government programs to
          take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from coast to
          coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under God" into
          our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step to tell
          the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could believe
          that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.



          After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to America and
          they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that our own
          scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of European
          scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools had
          begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was just the
          first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would the
          Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?



          When the immigrants put their children in our government schools (Public
          schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired from these
          schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the new
          immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had lived for
          generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics was made
          and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up with the new
          math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum to suit
          what they could teach.



          A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a slowdown
          and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were bidding
          for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was beginning to
          decline.



          The key to the success of America is academic education from first grade and
          it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to learn about
          the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the hell out
          of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
          neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent to a
          private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I couldn't get
          enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children. We had no
          television in the home but a large selection of books on everything. I
          would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest to read to
          the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books in
          literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on science
          fiction to broaden their view of t he world.



          Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even when in
          highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things like
          agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front of the
          boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy for
          them.



          We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of Americans had
          folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is essential
          to become proactive in our lives and take the personal responsibility for
          what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively working for
          American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of other
          countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are being
          squelched by a corrupt form of government.



          We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively searching
          for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives. The
          whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
          redundant government.



          So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close eye on
          my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my personal
          decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into office. I do
          know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for freedom
          and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn Arizona into
          a mud room for the rest of the nation.



          FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and they are
          working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I did the
          same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools. It has
          paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others to get out
          of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.



          Sandy



          -----Original Message-----
          From: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of olehenry1
          Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:42 PM
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: I'm new to this forum



          Hi sandy,

          We have quite a few differences in definitions as well as the
          importance/significance of some words. I hope you can appreciate
          this and are willing to patiently communicate with me.

          Additionally, I have no desire to win a conversation. If my
          sentences appear to be charged with mindless emotion, please do not
          take offense. There may actually be some good points hidden in the
          passion (feel free to ignore what you see as rotten fruit and
          instead, pick the good stuff).

          --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
          wrote:
          > Olehenry1. You have your freedom not to vote or get involved in
          anyway with
          > local or federal government decisions but then you have no right to
          complain
          > about the government's decisions.

          I feel it is "right" of me to complain (I assume you mean critique,
          analyze, disassemble scientifically as I don't practice complaining
          since rarely do I feel great suffering) about actions taken by men of
          the "government club". I feel it is equally right of me to critique
          past actions of ANY organizations as well as individuals so that I
          may learn and possibly relate ideas with others.

          I've heard the one-liner, "If ya Don't vote, you have no right to
          complain about what they vote for."
          Incorrect.
          If 51% voted to kill the 25% of voters who happened to vote "yea" for
          their lives, this 25% have a right to complain. If that 51% also
          voted to kill the 24% of nonvoters, those nonvoters have no right to
          complain?

          Why?

          >I personally have had some wonderful victories in dealing with
          >heavy-handed politicians when I lived in California and we managed
          >to put controls on our property taxes when many of our seniors, on
          >fixed incomes, were forced to sell their homes. It took hard work
          >from one end of California to the other but the voters themselves
          >put a limit on the taxes they had to pay. We forced the State to
          >act fiscally instead of their never-ending billing the residents of
          >the states to pay for services we did not want.

          Superficially (without more information), I commend your efforts.
          I do have a problem however with your use of "we". I assume you mean
          ALL Californians, or maybe ALL seniors, or maybe ALL female
          Californians, or maybe ALL of your friends... did your new law which
          was enforced on ALL Californians satisfy ALL Californians?

          >I am a Fiscal Conservative in the same way that Barry Goldwater was
          >running his campaign in 1964. He felt the government had no place
          >in our education standards, our personal choices, or our family
          >values. He wanted the Federal powers scaled back to fit the job
          >description in the Constitution.

          One problem I see generally with the Constitution is simply this: in
          order to get where we are today, we had to have the Constitution as a
          starting point. I have proof that the Constitution is the "1st
          cause" of where we are today...proof: a 200+ year case study. :)

          >At this time, the Feds issue mandates for the States to follow and
          >these are often redundant and too costly for the tax payers to pay.
          >The Federal government has one single purpose and that is to protect
          >American citizens from foreign attack; which to me, means protecting
          >our borders and all forms of transportation entering the country.
          >They have failed on this due to a heavy influence of Social issues
          >that they are not equipped to handle.

          >In America we all have our own individual standards (moral and
          >ethical) and the Federal Government has no business setting their
          >own social standards on any of us. The States each have their own
          >Constitution where the people themselves have agreed to when these
          >Constitutions were ratified. If the people want, they can change
          >portions of the laws through elections.

          Again, this use of "we" drives home an important point. "We"
          Americans all think alike...but if not, then "we" New Hampshire
          residents all think alike...but maybe not, so then we City of Concord
          residents all think alike...well, guess not...so then...

          Where do you draw the line? Why can't a Federal Gov't make decisions
          for "we"? Why is this different than a State Gov't making decisions
          for "we"? and a city gov't, etc....

          >We have elected Congressional Representatives who have totally
          >ignored our State Constitutions and in doing so have destroyed the
          >10th Amendment of our U.S. Constitution. Our State Rights are being
          >eroded by men like Jeff Flake, Trent Franks, J.D. Hayworth, Shaddeg
          >and both of our Senators in an effort to bring their own religious
          >doctrines into our lives. These men have run on Conservative labels
          >and in fact are little religious dictators trying to legislate our
          >personal choices. There is no expensive federal bill they will not
          >vote for if the King of the Hill (G.W. Bush) requests it. In my
          >point of view, they are not Conservative but simply religious wackos
          >who will not allow our freedoms to remain our own. I would like to
          >see them all thrown out of office in 2006!

          I see them all as doing exactly what they should do given the job
          description. Represent 280 million individuals???? Please, that's
          ubsurd. Spend a few hours questioning why it makes sense to ask 2
          senators to act in the "best interest of each individual of Arizona",
          and so on down the line of Representatives.

          My conclusion fresh into college was, "that's impossible!" Maybe
          what these reps should be doing (and are actually doing) is: attempt
          to discover what is best for every human, and then pass a law to
          ensure they each do so. At the time, it sounded doable to me. Now
          however, I recognize the fact that NO HUMAN ON EARTH KNOWS ME LIKE I
          KNOW ME. Let me decide...for me!

          >My definition of a Fiscal Conservative is as follows: A desire for
          >limited government; individual freedoms guaranteed and personal
          >responsibilities given back to all Americans. Anything less than
          >this would be unacceptable to me. We had these freedoms when I was
          >growing up and they are now being removed by an intrusive form of
          >government that would have been totally unacceptable during the
          >writing of the Constitution.

          Understood.

          >Where to start on waste and abuse of our taxes? Unless you follow
          >the actions of the U.S. Congress, you will never know. Do the
          >research and you will see the billions of dollars that are spent on
          >pork issues simply to buy the votes of the U.S. Congress members.

          Any substance that I earn which is forcably removed from my
          possession becomes pork, IMO. Withholding taxes using the threat of
          jail time (USC Title 26) is that force. Assuming authority over
          individuals, like a god, the US government and State governments give
          those with the guns the power/force to do as they "see fit".
          See fit = public's interest.

          > Sandy Price

          Nice to meet you electronically, Sandy.

          Jack
          "skip the vote!"





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • olehenry1
          ... My entire ... the D.C. ... years, ... programs to ... coast to ... God into ... to tell ... believe ... If you read the Constitution carefully (not
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 17, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
            wrote:
            > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
            My entire
            > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
            the D.C.
            > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
            years,
            > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
            programs to
            > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
            coast to
            > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
            God" into
            > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
            to tell
            > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
            believe
            > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

            If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
            not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
            collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
            as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
            That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
            ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
            must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

            Section 8 Powers of Congress:
            "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
            Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
            Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
            Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

            This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
            kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
            this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
            when 51% of voters approve.

            Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
            a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
            where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
            laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
            tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
            Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
            history, more or less.

            > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
            America and
            > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
            our own
            > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
            European
            > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
            had
            > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
            just the
            > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
            the
            > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

            As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
            They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

            > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
            (Public
            > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
            from these
            > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
            new
            > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
            lived for
            > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
            was made
            > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
            with the new
            > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
            to suit
            > what they could teach.
            >
            >
            >
            > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
            slowdown
            > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
            bidding
            > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
            beginning to
            > decline.
            >
            >
            >
            > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
            grade and
            > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
            learn about
            > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
            hell out
            > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
            > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
            to a
            > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
            couldn't get
            > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
            We had no
            > television in the home but a large selection of books on
            everything. I
            > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
            to read to
            > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
            in
            > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
            science
            > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
            >
            >
            >
            > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
            when in
            > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
            like
            > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
            of the
            > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
            for
            > them.
            >
            >
            >
            > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
            Americans had
            > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
            essential
            > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
            responsibility for
            > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
            working for
            > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
            other
            > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
            being
            > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

            Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
            with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

            > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
            searching
            > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
            The
            > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
            > redundant government.


            IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
            especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
            to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

            > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
            eye on
            > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
            personal
            > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
            office. I do
            > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
            freedom
            > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
            Arizona into
            > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
            >
            >
            >
            > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
            they are
            > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
            did the
            > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
            It has
            > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
            to get out
            > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
            >
            >
            >
            > Sandy

            We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
            protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
            each Individual's actual freedoms?

            Jack
          • christian peper
            for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 17, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination (both to the founders and god). there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear sin. till that time I will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: olehenry1
              To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:58 PM
              Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Constitution's limits [was: I'm new to this forum]


              --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Price" <s@r...>
              wrote:
              > Look guys, I have been actively involved in politics since 1950.
              My entire
              > family had been Republicans who demanded a limited government from
              the D.C.
              > right down to the state Capital in California. Even in those early
              years,
              > the more people who immigrated to America demanded government
              programs to
              > take care of them. This was absolutely harmful to people from
              coast to
              > coast. It was obscene for Ike to fight communism by adding "Under
              God" into
              > our pledge of allegiance and it seemed to most of us the first step
              to tell
              > the world that America was a Christian nation. None of us could
              believe
              > that the American people actually accepted this, but many did.

              If you read the Constitution carefully (not implying that you have
              not), it is clear that an English speaking person COULD take the
              collective use of language as well as many other explicit statements
              as implying: that each American is to be his/her brother's keeper.
              That is to say, that if one of us is left behind economically (due to
              ANY reason, self inflicted or victimized), the citizens collectively
              must ensure those less fortunate are helped along.

              Section 8 Powers of Congress:
              "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
              Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
              Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
              Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

              This very sentence is vague for sure, but I can come up with all
              kinds of "welfare and defenses" that I "have a right to" based on
              this simple sentence...ones that Congress must consider, especially
              when 51% of voters approve.

              Falling back to the good old days, I argue, means that voters as
              a "united states" must simply be at the whim of the majority voters,
              where each individual is relying on the majority of voters to pass
              laws to ensure our INDIVIDUALIZED needs are met. Even if voters
              tried to erase what has been done and start over with the
              Constitution, voters will simply be setting up America to repeat
              history, more or less.

              > After WW2, we had millions of non-Christians immigrating to
              America and
              > they were welcomed with open arms by all of us because we felt that
              our own
              > scientific and defense areas of expertise could use an influence of
              European
              > scientists and weapons designers. Sadly our own government schools
              had
              > begun to falter in their quality of academic education and it was
              just the
              > first attempt at dumbing down the children of America. Why would
              the
              > Governors of the states allow this decline of academics to happen?

              As if the Governors of the states have expertise on education.
              They're politicians, vote counters, majority supporters.

              > When the immigrants put their children in our government schools
              (Public
              > schools) they were horrified at the level of achievement desired
              from these
              > schools. Many private schools had begun to pop up and many of the
              new
              > immigrants poured into them. In California where my family had
              lived for
              > generations, the study of why the schools were lacking in academics
              was made
              > and it came down to ill-prepared teachers who could not keep up
              with the new
              > math and science subjects and they began to rewrite the curriculum
              to suit
              > what they could teach.
              >
              >
              >
              > A deeper study showed that with our missile programs coming to a
              slowdown
              > and the wars taking the focus from our local governments who were
              bidding
              > for the big contracts, our world of independent freedoms was
              beginning to
              > decline.
              >
              >
              >
              > The key to the success of America is academic education from first
              grade and
              > it seemed to fade out. By the time my own kids were starting to
              learn about
              > the world, it was obvious that our public schools were boring the
              hell out
              > of the kids and many social issues began to surface within the
              > neighborhoods. I had been bored in the lower grades and I was sent
              to a
              > private school where I began to catch the thrill of books. I
              couldn't get
              > enough books to read and decided to do the same for my children.
              We had no
              > television in the home but a large selection of books on
              everything. I
              > would read aloud to my kids and then turn that over to the oldest
              to read to
              > the youngest and our world became a theater of all the great books
              in
              > literature that had been written. We spent a couple of years on
              science
              > fiction to broaden their view of t he world.
              >
              >
              >
              > Instead of drugs, my kids got into horse and dog breeding and even
              when in
              > highschool took many classes from the community colleges in things
              like
              > agriculture and health studies. There friends simply sat in front
              of the
              > boob tube soaking up ads on things they wanted their parents to buy
              for
              > them.
              >
              >
              >
              > We became interested in evolution and how 2 generations of
              Americans had
              > folded up their brains for television shows and cartoons. It is
              essential
              > to become proactive in our lives and take the personal
              responsibility for
              > what we do as well as what we are. My kids are all actively
              working for
              > American freedoms, how to survive without killing the people of
              other
              > countries and how to protect what is left of our freedoms which are
              being
              > squelched by a corrupt form of government.

              Sounds like you've had an enjoyable experience (and more to come)
              with your children. Congrats and here's to (more to come).

              > We are way ahead of just sitting and whining but we are actively
              searching
              > for leaders who will work to keep the government out of our lives.
              The
              > whole purpose of the FSP was to get out from under an oppressive and
              > redundant government.


              IMO, government cannot be anything other than oppresive, and
              especially redundant if 51% approval is all that is needed in order
              to make decisions for EACH INDIVIDUAL.

              > So we can be active or not; whatever suits us. I keep a very close
              eye on
              > my state government as well as the federal intrusion into my
              personal
              > decisions and will search for candidates and vote them into
              office. I do
              > know that the bunch we have in Arizona are terrified of working for
              freedom
              > and will do anything suggested by President Bush and will turn
              Arizona into
              > a mud room for the rest of the nation.
              >
              >
              >
              > FSP knows the dangers of ignoring their children's education and
              they are
              > working to build the kind of schools they feel are necessary. I
              did the
              > same thing only took a couple of jobs to pay for private schools.
              It has
              > paid off as all the kids are professionals and are helping others
              to get out
              > of the boring routines taught by the homes and schools.
              >
              >
              >
              > Sandy

              We appear to agree on many problems with status quo methods of
              protecting freedoms. However, what about the methods of enhancing
              each Individual's actual freedoms?

              Jack




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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • olehenry1
              ... items of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole. viewed as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is an abomination
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 25, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
                <cbp429@h...> wrote:
                > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
                items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
                viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
                an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

                Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

                Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

                "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

                The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
                Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
                Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
                Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
                To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
                To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
                States, and with the Indian Tribes;
                To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
                the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
                To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
                fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
                To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
                current Coin of the United States;
                To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
                To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
                limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
                respective Writings and Discoveries;
                To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
                To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
                Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
                To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
                concerning Captures on Land and Water;
                To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
                Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
                To provide and maintain a Navy;
                To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
                Forces;
                To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
                Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
                To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
                for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
                the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
                Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
                Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
                To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
                District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
                particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
                the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
                over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
                State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
                Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
                To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
                into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
                this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
                Department or Officer thereof."
                ******

                The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
                document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
                government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
                a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
                which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

                What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
                defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
                out of context.

                Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
                authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
                this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

                To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
                you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
                suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
                confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
                effect.

                The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
                ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
                of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
                100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

                Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
                nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
                frustratingly retarded to me.

                Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
                supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
                you'd like to live.

                >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
                >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

                Define sin.
                Define system. Every system?
                What will make it clear for you?
                Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
                negative to you.

                Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
                smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
                warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
                encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

                Jack
              • christian peper
                My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 25, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  My name is Christian, and yes, I am a follower of Christ. christianity has been stolen by the elite, true Christianity is very very socially (but not fiscally) liberal. jeasus would support legal drugs, gay marriage etc. as for the Constitution, yes, it was a bit vague and subject to interpretation like the bible but the overall thrust of it is without a drought very liberal. the the bible is also very freeing and libertarian: living under the law of love and not the written law (see the sermon on the mount). do you know that Jesus baptized with hemp oil? best wishes, chistian
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: olehenry1
                  To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:46 PM
                  Subject: [arizonaporcupines] Re: Constitution's limits


                  --- In arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com, "christian peper"
                  <cbp429@h...> wrote:
                  > for fun I decided to respond: while it is fun to examine small
                  items >of the constitution the constitution must be vied as a whole.
                  viewed >as whole it is clear that the current welfare police state is
                  an >abomination (both to the founders and god).

                  Hi Christian (meaning Christ follower, correct?)

                  Here is Section 8 in its entirety:

                  "Section 8 - Powers of Congress

                  The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
                  Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
                  Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
                  Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
                  To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
                  To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
                  States, and with the Indian Tribes;
                  To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
                  the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
                  To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
                  fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
                  To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
                  current Coin of the United States;
                  To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
                  To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
                  limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
                  respective Writings and Discoveries;
                  To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
                  To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high
                  Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
                  To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
                  concerning Captures on Land and Water;
                  To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that
                  Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
                  To provide and maintain a Navy;
                  To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
                  Forces;
                  To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
                  Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
                  To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
                  for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
                  the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
                  Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the
                  Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
                  To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
                  District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
                  particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
                  the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
                  over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
                  State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
                  Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
                  To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying
                  into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by
                  this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
                  Department or Officer thereof."
                  ******

                  The so-called "public" has a lot of duties according to this
                  document. Very (un)clearly for example, it states that the federal
                  government can regulate commerce between the states. I can point out
                  a number of abominable Uniformity Acts and numerous commerce laws
                  which naturally DID occur with reference to the Constitution.

                  What about the two ideas of providing for general welfare and common
                  defense? These are not insignificant statements and are not at all
                  out of context.

                  Why does the Constitution give the so-called "the people" imagined
                  authority over a "POST OFFICE AND POST ROADS"? Why do you support
                  this tax-dollar enhanced monopoly?

                  To promote the progress of sciences and arts...takes money. Where do
                  you suppose "the people" are going to get the money? What do you
                  suppose it takes in order for "the people" to feel justified in
                  confiscating your money? It takes 51%; they add in big guns for
                  effect.

                  The Constitution is poorly written. The Constitution is prepared and
                  ready for interpretation. Once an interpretation is agreed on by 51%
                  of voters, VIOLA! you have a new law forced on 100% of voters and
                  100% of nonvoters. A new law funded by 100% of voters and nonvoters.

                  Attempting to RE-interpret the founding documents is going to get us
                  nowhere again and again. Maybe a fun game to play for some,
                  frustratingly retarded to me.

                  Please offer arguments (using the Constitution or other "legal" docs)
                  supporting use of such documents for developing a place in which
                  you'd like to live.

                  >there will come a time when support of the system will be a clear
                  >sin. till that time I >will grudgely pay taxes. christian peper

                  Define sin.
                  Define system. Every system?
                  What will make it clear for you?
                  Until this time of clarity, I assume paying taxes would not be
                  negative to you.

                  Everyone of these words typed above was accomplished while in a
                  smiley, joyous disposition. Want you to know that I have nothing but
                  warm regard for you. Therefore, this writing is intended to
                  encourage a pleasureable investigation into our minds.

                  Jack




                  SPONSORED LINKS Politics Government American politics
                  Conservative politics Organizational politics Associates


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