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RE: [arizonaporcupines] to be, or not to be

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  • Rick LaPoint
    NP ... From: mslagea@aol.com [mailto:mslagea@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:15 AM To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2004
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      NP

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mslagea@... [mailto:mslagea@...]
      Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 12:15 AM
      To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [arizonaporcupines] to be, or not to be

      Thanks for humoring my curiosity :)


      ~~Lagea


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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    • Kitty Antonik Wakfer
      ... My husband Paul and I removed ourselves from the FSP roles months before the vote also but made it very public why were doing so.
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2004
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        >
        > Message: 5
        > Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 00:10:13 -0700
        > From: "Rick LaPoint" <rick@...>
        > Subject: RE: to be, or not to be
        >
        > Actually, I 'quit' the fsp shortly before the vote. (I have the e-mail
        > to JPS somewhere, but don't make me drag that up).
        >
        > Since I was a pro-NH activist as well as a former NH resident, I didn't
        > want my vote to 'taint' the total... plus I was growing tired of their
        > downward spiral into groupthink.
        >
        > Which continues...

        My husband Paul and I removed ourselves from the FSP roles months before "the vote"
        also but made it very public why were doing so. <http://morelife.org/ssip/dialogues/>
        We both think that one should not keep quiet about decisions made on any subject,
        especially when they are ones that others may be wrestling with - or at least mulling
        over - themselves. (The exception being information that government agents can use
        against a person.) Keeping silent only makes sense (in a distorted manner) when the
        decision was not well thought out and for which one does not really have a logical
        reason that is in their own best interest. Passing judgment on organizations (which
        are of course comprised of individuals since only they can think and act), as well as
        individuals, is absolutely necessary for each person to do. Abdicating such real
        responsibility is foolish and dangerous in the long-run, even if it appears to be
        "neighborly" in the short-term.

        Discussion on the reasoning employed can be extremely beneficial to others as well as
        oneself to ensure that the evaluations already made were correct - or to determine
        where errors might have been made - and to reduce the likelihood of future errors. In
        that vein Rick, I think it would be very worthwhile to air your reasons and the
        principles underlying them. I had hoped to have such a dialogue with Matt Cheselka in
        the fourcornersporcupines Yahoo group about Paul's and my disagreements with FSP, but
        his one response (part of the dialogues at the above link) is all that he ever made
        to that group on the subject. It does no one good in the long-run to keep
        close-mouthed, adhering to the nonsensical platitude "If you can't say anything nice,
        don't say anything at all".

        I also don't understand why you include a conclusion that if you had remained a
        member that, as a "pro-NH activist", you wouldn't vote so as not "to 'taint' the
        total". That would lead to the reasoning that no one who had a strong preference to
        any particular state - and was trying to persuade others to the same conclusion -
        should take part in "the vote". Are you saying that one who tries to persuade others
        should not vote on a voting matter? Further explanation here would also help others
        to understand.

        I know that what I am requesting/suggesting - making known your chain of reasoning on
        the matter of continuation with FSP - is something that many might consider
        "personal" and therefore not subject for public scrutiny. I think that publicizing -
        at least publicly making a stand on issues including one's own decisions - is
        something each of us *should* do. It is part of being responsible for one's actions,
        good and bad.


        >
        > In the last five days I've re-inventoried my Yahoo lists and decided to
        > cull the non-performers.
        >
        > 'tis all.
        >
        > rick
        >

        As a USer (and married to a Canadian) with legal residence in AZ but always looking
        for a more liberty-minded location on this earth to live while retaining the
        technological advances available in North America, I have been interested in NH for
        quite some time - even before FSP. Paul and I are still very much interested in the
        locations within the "city corridor" (Nashua to Concord) and would like to hear more
        discussion about that area for potential relocation. (Taxes, ordinances, prices,
        etc.) Maybe you can suggest another group - made up of more individual thinking
        rather than groupthink persons and ones not seeking a survivalist environment.

        **Kitty Antonik Wakfer
        MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
        Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
        Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
        Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting
      • Rick LaPoint
        With all due respect, I don t really care to delve into my reasoning for opting out of the FSP as an organization. As an idea I think it s great, but let s
        Message 3 of 9 , May 2, 2004
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          With all due respect, I don't really care to delve into my reasoning for
          opting out of the FSP as an organization. As an 'idea' I think it's
          great, but let's just say you won't find me haunting its
          central-planning storefront 'office' in downtown Manchester or Concord
          looking for my next 'freedom' assignment. ;)

          As far as not voting, I had planned on moving back to NH eventually no
          matter how the vote turned out, so returning my own ballot seemed
          unfair.

          I don't see any reason why people just can't move to NH and be *insert
          philosophy here* without the cat-herders attempting to gather them up
          and pigeon-hole them. That's just the way I prefer to do it, and unless
          they start setting-up checkpoints to verify everyone's porcu-card upon
          entry to the state, I'm guessing I've got a pretty darn good shot at
          success.

          Don't make me think about it too much Kitty, as knowing who some of my
          prospective neighbors are might force me to change my mind upon deeper
          reflection. :D

          I'm more than happy to keep this list open, so long as there is a market
          for it.

          rick


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer [mailto:kitty@...]
          Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:14 PM
          To: arizonaporcupines@yahoogroups.com; "Rick LaPoint"
          Subject: RE: [arizonaporcupines] RE: to be, or not to be

          >
          > Message: 5
          > Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 00:10:13 -0700
          > From: "Rick LaPoint" <rick@...>
          > Subject: RE: to be, or not to be
          >
          > Actually, I 'quit' the fsp shortly before the vote. (I have the e-mail
          > to JPS somewhere, but don't make me drag that up).
          >
          > Since I was a pro-NH activist as well as a former NH resident, I
          didn't
          > want my vote to 'taint' the total... plus I was growing tired of their
          > downward spiral into groupthink.
          >
          > Which continues...

          My husband Paul and I removed ourselves from the FSP roles months before
          "the vote"
          also but made it very public why were doing so.
          <http://morelife.org/ssip/dialogues/>
          We both think that one should not keep quiet about decisions made on any
          subject,
          especially when they are ones that others may be wrestling with - or at
          least mulling
          over - themselves. (The exception being information that government
          agents can use
          against a person.) Keeping silent only makes sense (in a distorted
          manner) when the
          decision was not well thought out and for which one does not really have
          a logical
          reason that is in their own best interest. Passing judgment on
          organizations (which
          are of course comprised of individuals since only they can think and
          act), as well as
          individuals, is absolutely necessary for each person to do. Abdicating
          such real
          responsibility is foolish and dangerous in the long-run, even if it
          appears to be
          "neighborly" in the short-term.

          Discussion on the reasoning employed can be extremely beneficial to
          others as well as
          oneself to ensure that the evaluations already made were correct - or to
          determine
          where errors might have been made - and to reduce the likelihood of
          future errors. In
          that vein Rick, I think it would be very worthwhile to air your reasons
          and the
          principles underlying them. I had hoped to have such a dialogue with
          Matt Cheselka in
          the fourcornersporcupines Yahoo group about Paul's and my disagreements
          with FSP, but
          his one response (part of the dialogues at the above link) is all that
          he ever made
          to that group on the subject. It does no one good in the long-run to
          keep
          close-mouthed, adhering to the nonsensical platitude "If you can't say
          anything nice,
          don't say anything at all".

          I also don't understand why you include a conclusion that if you had
          remained a
          member that, as a "pro-NH activist", you wouldn't vote so as not "to
          'taint' the
          total". That would lead to the reasoning that no one who had a strong
          preference to
          any particular state - and was trying to persuade others to the same
          conclusion -
          should take part in "the vote". Are you saying that one who tries to
          persuade others
          should not vote on a voting matter? Further explanation here would also
          help others
          to understand.

          I know that what I am requesting/suggesting - making known your chain of
          reasoning on
          the matter of continuation with FSP - is something that many might
          consider
          "personal" and therefore not subject for public scrutiny. I think that
          publicizing -
          at least publicly making a stand on issues including one's own decisions
          - is
          something each of us *should* do. It is part of being responsible for
          one's actions,
          good and bad.


          >
          > In the last five days I've re-inventoried my Yahoo lists and decided
          to
          > cull the non-performers.
          >
          > 'tis all.
          >
          > rick
          >

          As a USer (and married to a Canadian) with legal residence in AZ but
          always looking
          for a more liberty-minded location on this earth to live while retaining
          the
          technological advances available in North America, I have been
          interested in NH for
          quite some time - even before FSP. Paul and I are still very much
          interested in the
          locations within the "city corridor" (Nashua to Concord) and would like
          to hear more
          discussion about that area for potential relocation. (Taxes, ordinances,
          prices,
          etc.) Maybe you can suggest another group - made up of more individual
          thinking
          rather than groupthink persons and ones not seeking a survivalist
          environment.

          **Kitty Antonik Wakfer
          MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
          Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
          Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
          Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting









          Yahoo! Groups Links
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