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  • Soran Mardini
    I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle s point of view of the relationship between the mouvement and the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!! Can
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 4 5:34 AM
      I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's point
      of view of the relationship between the mouvement and
      the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
      Can you help bridge the gap?
      Souran


      _____________________________________________________________________________
      Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
    • Lancelot Fletcher
      Souran, Are you referring to Aristotle s introduction of the notion of a Prime Mover in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which passage you find
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 4 10:26 AM
        Souran,

        Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of the notion of a Prime Mover
        in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which passage you find puzzling
        and say what it is that makes you find this perplexing?

        Lance Fletcher


        > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
        > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
        > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
        >
        > I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's point
        > of view of the relationship between the mouvement and
        > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
        > Can you help bridge the gap?
        > Souran
        >
        >
        >
        > _____________________________________________________________________________
        > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
      • Soran Mardini
        Lance Lamda, yes. The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are based on the notion that from the phenomenon of mouvement Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 5 4:01 AM
          Lance
          Lamda, yes.
          The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are based
          on the notion that from the "phenomenon of mouvement"
          Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
          immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
          We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
          Souran
          --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@...> a écrit :

          > Souran,
          >
          > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of the
          > notion of a Prime Mover
          > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which
          > passage you find puzzling
          > and say what it is that makes you find this
          > perplexing?
          >
          > Lance Fletcher
          >
          >
          > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
          > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
          > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
          > >
          > > I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's
          > point
          > > of view of the relationship between the mouvement
          > and
          > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
          > > Can you help bridge the gap?
          > > Souran
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          _____________________________________________________________________________
          > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
          > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
          >
          >
          >



          _____________________________________________________________________________
          Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
        • John Barone
          Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more familiar language it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a contigent world in which every event
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 5 3:21 PM
            Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more familiar language it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a contigent world in which every event has its cause. But what about the universe itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and in that case what was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle believed, it was eternal but in that case what was the cause of its eternal motion? Aristotle believed that logic required an unmoved mover or as I prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if motion was eternal. It is important that we understand that this argument is not a temporal question but a question of being. Aquinas inspired by the Torah referred to God as that being whose essence is to exist and so is the ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am who am", to use the biblical phrase.

            Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...> wrote: Lance
            Lamda, yes.
            The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are based
            on the notion that from the "phenomenon of mouvement"
            Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
            immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
            We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
            Souran
            --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@...> a écrit :

            > Souran,
            >
            > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of the
            > notion of a Prime Mover
            > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which
            > passage you find puzzling
            > and say what it is that makes you find this
            > perplexing?
            >
            > Lance Fletcher
            >
            >
            > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
            > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
            > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
            > >
            > > I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's
            > point
            > > of view of the relationship between the mouvement
            > and
            > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
            > > Can you help bridge the gap?
            > > Souran
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            __________________________________________________________
            > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
            > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
            >
            >
            >

            __________________________________________________________
            Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail





            ---------------------------------
            Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • physisvnomos
            Mr. Barone, What in the text makes you so confident that theos is not acting in time or creating time? I have seen this argument more than once, but am
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 2, 2008
              Mr. Barone,

              What in the text makes you so confident that theos is not acting in
              time or creating time? I have seen this argument more than once, but
              am uncertain regarding its truth.


              Regards,

              Timothy E. Kennelly

              --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John Barone <vespatian75@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more familiar language
              it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a contigent world
              in which every event has its cause. But what about the universe
              itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and in that case what
              was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle believed, it was
              eternal but in that case what was the cause of its eternal motion?
              Aristotle believed that logic required an unmoved mover or as I
              prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if motion was eternal. It is
              important that we understand that this argument is not a temporal
              question but a question of being. Aquinas inspired by the Torah
              referred to God as that being whose essence is to exist and so is the
              ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am who am", to use the
              biblical phrase.
              >
              > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...> wrote: Lance
              > Lamda, yes.
              > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are based
              > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of mouvement"
              > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
              > immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
              > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
              > Souran
              > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@...> a écrit :
              >
              > > Souran,
              > >
              > > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of the
              > > notion of a Prime Mover
              > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which
              > > passage you find puzzling
              > > and say what it is that makes you find this
              > > perplexing?
              > >
              > > Lance Fletcher
              > >
              > >
              > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
              > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
              > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
              > > >
              > > > I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's
              > > point
              > > > of view of the relationship between the mouvement
              > > and
              > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
              > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
              > > > Souran
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
              > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers
              Yahoo! Mail
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • John Barone
              Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say certainly a valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian thought. I don t know if Aristotle or Aquinas ever
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 15, 2008
                Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say certainly a valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian thought. I don't know if Aristotle or Aquinas ever articulated such a theory, but certainly it could be seen as consistent with their views. More importantly it is in its own right a perfectly valid way to look at the relation of the Creator and the Cosmos.
                Thank you for sharing it with me
                John Barone

                physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> wrote:
                Mr. Barone,

                What in the text makes you so confident that theos is not acting in
                time or creating time? I have seen this argument more than once, but
                am uncertain regarding its truth.

                Regards,

                Timothy E. Kennelly

                --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John Barone <vespatian75@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more familiar language
                it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a contigent world
                in which every event has its cause. But what about the universe
                itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and in that case what
                was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle believed, it was
                eternal but in that case what was the cause of its eternal motion?
                Aristotle believed that logic required an unmoved mover or as I
                prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if motion was eternal. It is
                important that we understand that this argument is not a temporal
                question but a question of being. Aquinas inspired by the Torah
                referred to God as that being whose essence is to exist and so is the
                ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am who am", to use the
                biblical phrase.
                >
                > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...> wrote: Lance
                > Lamda, yes.
                > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are based
                > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of mouvement"
                > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
                > immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
                > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
                > Souran
                > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@...> a écrit :
                >
                > > Souran,
                > >
                > > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of the
                > > notion of a Prime Mover
                > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely which
                > > passage you find puzzling
                > > and say what it is that makes you find this
                > > perplexing?
                > >
                > > Lance Fletcher
                > >
                > >
                > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
                > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
                > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                > > >
                > > > I have some difficulty to understand Aristotle's
                > > point
                > > > of view of the relationship between the mouvement
                > > and
                > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
                > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                > > > Souran
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
                > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > __________________________________________________________
                > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers
                Yahoo! Mail
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Soran Mardini
                Absolute Rubbish, Give me one , one single evidence only even a sign, an indice, anything... Souran ... __________________________________________________ Do
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 19, 2008
                  Absolute Rubbish,
                  Give me one , one single evidence only
                  even a sign, an indice, anything...
                  Souran
                  --- John Barone <vespatian75@...> a écrit :

                  > Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say certainly a
                  > valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian
                  > thought. I don't know if Aristotle or Aquinas ever
                  > articulated such a theory, but certainly it could be
                  > seen as consistent with their views. More
                  > importantly it is in its own right a perfectly valid
                  > way to look at the relation of the Creator and the
                  > Cosmos.
                  > Thank you for sharing it with me
                  > John Barone
                  >
                  > physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> wrote:
                  > Mr. Barone,
                  >
                  > What in the text makes you so confident that theos
                  > is not acting in
                  > time or creating time? I have seen this argument
                  > more than once, but
                  > am uncertain regarding its truth.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Timothy E. Kennelly
                  >
                  > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John Barone
                  > <vespatian75@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more
                  > familiar language
                  > it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a
                  > contigent world
                  > in which every event has its cause. But what about
                  > the universe
                  > itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and in
                  > that case what
                  > was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle
                  > believed, it was
                  > eternal but in that case what was the cause of its
                  > eternal motion?
                  > Aristotle believed that logic required an unmoved
                  > mover or as I
                  > prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if motion
                  > was eternal. It is
                  > important that we understand that this argument is
                  > not a temporal
                  > question but a question of being. Aquinas inspired
                  > by the Torah
                  > referred to God as that being whose essence is to
                  > exist and so is the
                  > ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am who
                  > am", to use the
                  > biblical phrase.
                  > >
                  > > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...> wrote: Lance
                  > > Lamda, yes.
                  > > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are
                  > based
                  > > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of
                  > mouvement"
                  > > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
                  > > immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
                  > > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
                  > > Souran
                  > > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@...> a écrit :
                  > >
                  > > > Souran,
                  > > >
                  > > > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of
                  > the
                  > > > notion of a Prime Mover
                  > > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely
                  > which
                  > > > passage you find puzzling
                  > > > and say what it is that makes you find this
                  > > > perplexing?
                  > > >
                  > > > Lance Fletcher
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@...>
                  > > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
                  > > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have some difficulty to understand
                  > Aristotle's
                  > > > point
                  > > > > of view of the relationship between the
                  > mouvement
                  > > > and
                  > > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
                  > > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                  > > > > Souran
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  __________________________________________________________
                  > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                  > Copiez
                  > > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
                  > vos mails vers
                  > Yahoo! Mail
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo!
                  > Autos.
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicités
                  http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail
                • physisvnomos
                  Mr. Mardini, I simply asked a question, nothing more. It is not intended to be a tendentious question. Timothy E. Kennelly ... protection possible contre les
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 21, 2008
                    Mr. Mardini,

                    I simply asked a question, nothing more. It is not intended to be a
                    tendentious question.

                    Timothy E. Kennelly

                    --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran Mardini
                    <souranmardini@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Absolute Rubbish,
                    > Give me one , one single evidence only
                    > even a sign, an indice, anything...
                    > Souran
                    > --- John Barone <vespatian75@...> a écrit :
                    >
                    > > Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say certainly a
                    > > valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian
                    > > thought. I don't know if Aristotle or Aquinas ever
                    > > articulated such a theory, but certainly it could be
                    > > seen as consistent with their views. More
                    > > importantly it is in its own right a perfectly valid
                    > > way to look at the relation of the Creator and the
                    > > Cosmos.
                    > > Thank you for sharing it with me
                    > > John Barone
                    > >
                    > > physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> wrote:
                    > > Mr. Barone,
                    > >
                    > > What in the text makes you so confident that theos
                    > > is not acting in
                    > > time or creating time? I have seen this argument
                    > > more than once, but
                    > > am uncertain regarding its truth.
                    > >
                    > > Regards,
                    > >
                    > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                    > >
                    > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John Barone
                    > > <vespatian75@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in more
                    > > familiar language
                    > > it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live in a
                    > > contigent world
                    > > in which every event has its cause. But what about
                    > > the universe
                    > > itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and in
                    > > that case what
                    > > was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle
                    > > believed, it was
                    > > eternal but in that case what was the cause of its
                    > > eternal motion?
                    > > Aristotle believed that logic required an unmoved
                    > > mover or as I
                    > > prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if motion
                    > > was eternal. It is
                    > > important that we understand that this argument is
                    > > not a temporal
                    > > question but a question of being. Aquinas inspired
                    > > by the Torah
                    > > referred to God as that being whose essence is to
                    > > exist and so is the
                    > > ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am who
                    > > am", to use the
                    > > biblical phrase.
                    > > >
                    > > > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@> wrote: Lance
                    > > > Lamda, yes.
                    > > > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics are
                    > > based
                    > > > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of
                    > > mouvement"
                    > > > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God, perfect,
                    > > > immovable and eternal as well as good !!!!!????
                    > > > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
                    > > > Souran
                    > > > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@> a écrit :
                    > > >
                    > > > > Souran,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Are you referring to Aristotle's introduction of
                    > > the
                    > > > > notion of a Prime Mover
                    > > > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely
                    > > which
                    > > > > passage you find puzzling
                    > > > > and say what it is that makes you find this
                    > > > > perplexing?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Lance Fletcher
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@>
                    > > > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
                    > > > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have some difficulty to understand
                    > > Aristotle's
                    > > > > point
                    > > > > > of view of the relationship between the
                    > > mouvement
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a God!!
                    > > > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                    > > > > > Souran
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                    > > Copiez
                    > > > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > __________________________________________________________
                    > >
                    > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez
                    > > vos mails vers
                    > > Yahoo! Mail
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo!
                    > > Autos.
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure
                    protection possible contre les messages non sollicités
                    > http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail
                    >
                  • Soran Mardini
                    Mr. Kennelly No personal jest is made. Far from this... Ý consider only ideas and concepts. What worries me a lot are assumptions of proofs and evidences for
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 22, 2008
                      Mr. Kennelly
                      No personal jest is made. Far from this...
                      Ý consider only ideas and concepts.
                      What worries me a lot are assumptions of proofs and
                      evidences for or against the existance of an "external
                      finality".. We simply have no empiric knowledge..
                      Unless you can produce the contrary
                      Sincerely
                      Souran
                      --- physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> a écrit :

                      > Mr. Mardini,
                      >
                      > I simply asked a question, nothing more. It is not
                      > intended to be a
                      > tendentious question.
                      >
                      > Timothy E. Kennelly
                      >
                      > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran Mardini
                      > <souranmardini@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Absolute Rubbish,
                      > > Give me one , one single evidence only
                      > > even a sign, an indice, anything...
                      > > Souran
                      > > --- John Barone <vespatian75@...> a écrit :
                      > >
                      > > > Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say
                      > certainly a
                      > > > valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian
                      > > > thought. I don't know if Aristotle or Aquinas
                      > ever
                      > > > articulated such a theory, but certainly it
                      > could be
                      > > > seen as consistent with their views. More
                      > > > importantly it is in its own right a perfectly
                      > valid
                      > > > way to look at the relation of the Creator and
                      > the
                      > > > Cosmos.
                      > > > Thank you for sharing it with me
                      > > > John Barone
                      > > >
                      > > > physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> wrote:
                      > > > Mr. Barone,
                      > > >
                      > > > What in the text makes you so confident that
                      > theos
                      > > > is not acting in
                      > > > time or creating time? I have seen this argument
                      > > > more than once, but
                      > > > am uncertain regarding its truth.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards,
                      > > >
                      > > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John
                      > Barone
                      > > > <vespatian75@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in
                      > more
                      > > > familiar language
                      > > > it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live
                      > in a
                      > > > contigent world
                      > > > in which every event has its cause. But what
                      > about
                      > > > the universe
                      > > > itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and
                      > in
                      > > > that case what
                      > > > was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle
                      > > > believed, it was
                      > > > eternal but in that case what was the cause of
                      > its
                      > > > eternal motion?
                      > > > Aristotle believed that logic required an
                      > unmoved
                      > > > mover or as I
                      > > > prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if
                      > motion
                      > > > was eternal. It is
                      > > > important that we understand that this argument
                      > is
                      > > > not a temporal
                      > > > question but a question of being. Aquinas
                      > inspired
                      > > > by the Torah
                      > > > referred to God as that being whose essence is
                      > to
                      > > > exist and so is the
                      > > > ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am
                      > who
                      > > > am", to use the
                      > > > biblical phrase.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@> wrote: Lance
                      > > > > Lamda, yes.
                      > > > > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics
                      > are
                      > > > based
                      > > > > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of
                      > > > mouvement"
                      > > > > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God,
                      > perfect,
                      > > > > immovable and eternal as well as good
                      > !!!!!????
                      > > > > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
                      > > > > Souran
                      > > > > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@> a écrit :
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > Souran,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Are you referring to Aristotle's
                      > introduction of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > notion of a Prime Mover
                      > > > > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely
                      > > > which
                      > > > > > passage you find puzzling
                      > > > > > and say what it is that makes you find this
                      > > > > > perplexing?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Lance Fletcher
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@>
                      > > > > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200
                      > (CEST)
                      > > > > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I have some difficulty to understand
                      > > > Aristotle's
                      > > > > > point
                      > > > > > > of view of the relationship between the
                      > > > mouvement
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a
                      > God!!
                      > > > > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                      > > > > > > Souran
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      __________________________________________________________
                      > > > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                      > > > Copiez
                      > > > > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      __________________________________________________________
                      > > >
                      > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                      > Copiez
                      > > > vos mails vers
                      > > > Yahoo! Mail
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at
                      > Yahoo!
                      > > > Autos.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > > > removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > > > removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la
                      > meilleure
                      > protection possible contre les messages non
                      > sollicités
                      > > http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • physisvnomos
                      Mr. Mardini, Forgive me, Soran, but your comments are of interest and I am plagued by ignorance; what is meant by the term external finality ? Regards,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 22, 2008
                        Mr. Mardini,

                        Forgive me, Soran, but your comments are of interest and I am plagued
                        by ignorance; what is meant by the term "external finality"?


                        Regards,

                        Timothy E. Kennelly


                        --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran Mardini
                        <souranmardini@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mr. Kennelly
                        > No personal jest is made. Far from this...
                        > Ý consider only ideas and concepts.
                        > What worries me a lot are assumptions of proofs and
                        > evidences for or against the existance of an "external
                        > finality".. We simply have no empiric knowledge..
                        > Unless you can produce the contrary
                        > Sincerely
                        > Souran
                        > --- physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> a écrit :
                        >
                        > > Mr. Mardini,
                        > >
                        > > I simply asked a question, nothing more. It is not
                        > > intended to be a
                        > > tendentious question.
                        > >
                        > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                        > >
                        > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran Mardini
                        > > <souranmardini@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Absolute Rubbish,
                        > > > Give me one , one single evidence only
                        > > > even a sign, an indice, anything...
                        > > > Souran
                        > > > --- John Barone <vespatian75@> a écrit :
                        > > >
                        > > > > Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say
                        > > certainly a
                        > > > > valid theory easily reconcilable to Aristotelian
                        > > > > thought. I don't know if Aristotle or Aquinas
                        > > ever
                        > > > > articulated such a theory, but certainly it
                        > > could be
                        > > > > seen as consistent with their views. More
                        > > > > importantly it is in its own right a perfectly
                        > > valid
                        > > > > way to look at the relation of the Creator and
                        > > the
                        > > > > Cosmos.
                        > > > > Thank you for sharing it with me
                        > > > > John Barone
                        > > > >
                        > > > > physisvnomos <physisvnomos@> wrote:
                        > > > > Mr. Barone,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What in the text makes you so confident that
                        > > theos
                        > > > > is not acting in
                        > > > > time or creating time? I have seen this argument
                        > > > > more than once, but
                        > > > > am uncertain regarding its truth.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Regards,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John
                        > > Barone
                        > > > > <vespatian75@>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in
                        > > more
                        > > > > familiar language
                        > > > > it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we live
                        > > in a
                        > > > > contigent world
                        > > > > in which every event has its cause. But what
                        > > about
                        > > > > the universe
                        > > > > itself? Either the universe had a beginning, and
                        > > in
                        > > > > that case what
                        > > > > was the cause of its beginning or, as Aristotle
                        > > > > believed, it was
                        > > > > eternal but in that case what was the cause of
                        > > its
                        > > > > eternal motion?
                        > > > > Aristotle believed that logic required an
                        > > unmoved
                        > > > > mover or as I
                        > > > > prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if
                        > > motion
                        > > > > was eternal. It is
                        > > > > important that we understand that this argument
                        > > is
                        > > > > not a temporal
                        > > > > question but a question of being. Aquinas
                        > > inspired
                        > > > > by the Torah
                        > > > > referred to God as that being whose essence is
                        > > to
                        > > > > exist and so is the
                        > > > > ground for a contigent universe. God is "I am
                        > > who
                        > > > > am", to use the
                        > > > > biblical phrase.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@> wrote: Lance
                        > > > > > Lamda, yes.
                        > > > > > The whole metaphysics as well as the physics
                        > > are
                        > > > > based
                        > > > > > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of
                        > > > > mouvement"
                        > > > > > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God,
                        > > perfect,
                        > > > > > immovable and eternal as well as good
                        > > !!!!!????
                        > > > > > We think we are reading the Torah, don't we???
                        > > > > > Souran
                        > > > > > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@> a écrit :
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Souran,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Are you referring to Aristotle's
                        > > introduction of
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > > notion of a Prime Mover
                        > > > > > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say precisely
                        > > > > which
                        > > > > > > passage you find puzzling
                        > > > > > > and say what it is that makes you find this
                        > > > > > > perplexing?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Lance Fletcher
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@>
                        > > > > > > > Reply-To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200
                        > > (CEST)
                        > > > > > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I have some difficulty to understand
                        > > > > Aristotle's
                        > > > > > > point
                        > > > > > > > of view of the relationship between the
                        > > > > mouvement
                        > > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a
                        > > God!!
                        > > > > > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                        > > > > > > > Souran
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > __________________________________________________________
                        > > > > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                        > > > > Copiez
                        > > > > > > vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > __________________________________________________________
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail !
                        > > Copiez
                        > > > > vos mails vers
                        > > > > Yahoo! Mail
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > Check out the hottest 2008 models today at
                        > > Yahoo!
                        > > > > Autos.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > > > removed]
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > > > > removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > __________________________________________________
                        > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > > En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la
                        > > meilleure
                        > > protection possible contre les messages non
                        > > sollicités
                        > > > http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
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                        >
                      • Soran Mardini
                        Dear Timothy God Please look up fnalities...Aristotle 4causes on net Souran ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 24, 2008
                          Dear Timothy
                          'God'
                          Please look up fnalities...Aristotle 4causes on net
                          Souran
                          --- physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> a écrit :

                          > Mr. Mardini,
                          >
                          > Forgive me, Soran, but your comments are of interest
                          > and I am plagued
                          > by ignorance; what is meant by the term "external
                          > finality"?
                          >
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Timothy E. Kennelly
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran Mardini
                          > <souranmardini@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mr. Kennelly
                          > > No personal jest is made. Far from this...
                          > > Ý consider only ideas and concepts.
                          > > What worries me a lot are assumptions of proofs
                          > and
                          > > evidences for or against the existance of an
                          > "external
                          > > finality".. We simply have no empiric knowledge..
                          > > Unless you can produce the contrary
                          > > Sincerely
                          > > Souran
                          > > --- physisvnomos <physisvnomos@...> a écrit :
                          > >
                          > > > Mr. Mardini,
                          > > >
                          > > > I simply asked a question, nothing more. It is
                          > not
                          > > > intended to be a
                          > > > tendentious question.
                          > > >
                          > > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, Soran
                          > Mardini
                          > > > <souranmardini@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Absolute Rubbish,
                          > > > > Give me one , one single evidence only
                          > > > > even a sign, an indice, anything...
                          > > > > Souran
                          > > > > --- John Barone <vespatian75@> a écrit :
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Mr Kennelly, I believe that what you say
                          > > > certainly a
                          > > > > > valid theory easily reconcilable to
                          > Aristotelian
                          > > > > > thought. I don't know if Aristotle or
                          > Aquinas
                          > > > ever
                          > > > > > articulated such a theory, but certainly it
                          > > > could be
                          > > > > > seen as consistent with their views. More
                          > > > > > importantly it is in its own right a
                          > perfectly
                          > > > valid
                          > > > > > way to look at the relation of the Creator
                          > and
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > Cosmos.
                          > > > > > Thank you for sharing it with me
                          > > > > > John Barone
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > physisvnomos <physisvnomos@> wrote:
                          > > > > > Mr. Barone,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > What in the text makes you so confident that
                          > > > theos
                          > > > > > is not acting in
                          > > > > > time or creating time? I have seen this
                          > argument
                          > > > > > more than once, but
                          > > > > > am uncertain regarding its truth.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Regards,
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Timothy E. Kennelly
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com, John
                          > > > Barone
                          > > > > > <vespatian75@>
                          > > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Actually there is no miracle. To put it in
                          > > > more
                          > > > > > familiar language
                          > > > > > it seems to me that Aristotle is saying we
                          > live
                          > > > in a
                          > > > > > contigent world
                          > > > > > in which every event has its cause. But what
                          > > > about
                          > > > > > the universe
                          > > > > > itself? Either the universe had a beginning,
                          > and
                          > > > in
                          > > > > > that case what
                          > > > > > was the cause of its beginning or, as
                          > Aristotle
                          > > > > > believed, it was
                          > > > > > eternal but in that case what was the cause
                          > of
                          > > > its
                          > > > > > eternal motion?
                          > > > > > Aristotle believed that logic required an
                          > > > unmoved
                          > > > > > mover or as I
                          > > > > > prefer to call it an uncaused cause even if
                          > > > motion
                          > > > > > was eternal. It is
                          > > > > > important that we understand that this
                          > argument
                          > > > is
                          > > > > > not a temporal
                          > > > > > question but a question of being. Aquinas
                          > > > inspired
                          > > > > > by the Torah
                          > > > > > referred to God as that being whose essence
                          > is
                          > > > to
                          > > > > > exist and so is the
                          > > > > > ground for a contigent universe. God is "I
                          > am
                          > > > who
                          > > > > > am", to use the
                          > > > > > biblical phrase.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Soran Mardini <souranmardini@> wrote:
                          > Lance
                          > > > > > > Lamda, yes.
                          > > > > > > The whole metaphysics as well as the
                          > physics
                          > > > are
                          > > > > > based
                          > > > > > > on the notion that from the "phenomenon of
                          > > > > > mouvement"
                          > > > > > > Arsito leaps , by a miracle, to a God,
                          > > > perfect,
                          > > > > > > immovable and eternal as well as good
                          > > > !!!!!????
                          > > > > > > We think we are reading the Torah, don't
                          > we???
                          > > > > > > Souran
                          > > > > > > --- Lancelot Fletcher <lrfletcher@> a
                          > écrit :
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Souran,
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Are you referring to Aristotle's
                          > > > introduction of
                          > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > > notion of a Prime Mover
                          > > > > > > > in Metaphysics lamda? Can you say
                          > precisely
                          > > > > > which
                          > > > > > > > passage you find puzzling
                          > > > > > > > and say what it is that makes you find
                          > this
                          > > > > > > > perplexing?
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Lance Fletcher
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > From: Soran Mardini <souranmardini@>
                          > > > > > > > > Reply-To:
                          > <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:34:43 +0200
                          > > > (CEST)
                          > > > > > > > > To: <aristotle-met@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > > > > > Subject: [aristotle-met] (unknown)
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > I have some difficulty to understand
                          > > > > > Aristotle's
                          > > > > > > > point
                          > > > > > > > > of view of the relationship between
                          > the
                          > > > > > mouvement
                          > > > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > > > the sudden, unexpected appearance of a
                          > > > God!!
                          > > > > > > > > Can you help bridge the gap?
                          > > > > > > > > Souran
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          __________________________________________________________
                          > > > > > > > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse
                          > mail !
                          > > > > > Copiez
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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