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Re: PL tube kite prototype

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  • larkin
    ... Tubes from Peter Lynn?? Now I am the first to call people kite snobs if they are against tubes or arcs or foils. I have all three. But call me Crazy
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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      --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, ssameer wind <kitewanker@...> wrote:
      >
      > saved as draft and forgot to send out:
      >
      > ok, so we've shifted from this interesting dev in the PL tube kite to AR.
      >
      > my guess on the FS speed 3 being so high aspect is because it's such a giant
      > kite that high ar reduces its drag and makes it want to fly faster and
      > generate pull, but i think it really has to do with the super flat projected
      > area of that particular kite.
      >
      > higher ar = less drag, so they go further into the wind. they're fast, go
      > upwind better but the power is at higher speeds. the fastest ar kite i've
      > ever flown are the phantoms. they are amazing buggy kites, but in the water
      > the lack of grunt really makes it difficult. the last time i flew my p9, it
      > was very windy, i could have ridden VERY powered up, but the huge chop made
      > it difficult, so i had to edge to keep a speed i could manage; the kite
      > however would quickly fly to the edge and produce no power.
      >
      > high ar kites are good for speed, and maybe a bigger high ar for lighter
      > winds would work ok, but in general i prefer medium aspect kites for
      > kitesurfing for the grunt.
      >
      > -ssameer (mykl)

      Tubes from Peter Lynn?? Now I am the first to call people kite snobs
      if they are against tubes or arcs or foils. I have all three.
      But call me Crazy <"> but why not a bridled water foil
      for light wind from Peter Lynn?? Like HQ or Flysurfer or Spleen's
      new water foils? Peter Lynn seems to have allot of successful foils kites..
      with high sales and so much experience? Maybe a tube and a
      water foil? Spaghetti ?? I eat it with a parmesan cheese, butter
      and lemon sauce. Tasty!
      Crazy L

      >
      > >
      >
    • ciop37
      Peter Lynn out of PLkiteboarding and tube kites. Lets change the brand name too to make it more appealing. Why not Best Kiteboarding ? look impressive uh
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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        Peter Lynn out of PLkiteboarding and tube kites.
        Lets change the brand name too to make it more appealing.
        Why not "Best Kiteboarding" ?
        look impressive uh ?!?!

        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "larkin" <sparkin_larkin@...> wrote:
        >
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        > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, ssameer wind <kitewanker@> wrote:
        > >
        > > saved as draft and forgot to send out:
        > >
        > > ok, so we've shifted from this interesting dev in the PL tube kite to AR.
        > >
        > > my guess on the FS speed 3 being so high aspect is because it's such a giant
        > > kite that high ar reduces its drag and makes it want to fly faster and
        > > generate pull, but i think it really has to do with the super flat projected
        > > area of that particular kite.
        > >
        > > higher ar = less drag, so they go further into the wind. they're fast, go
        > > upwind better but the power is at higher speeds. the fastest ar kite i've
        > > ever flown are the phantoms. they are amazing buggy kites, but in the water
        > > the lack of grunt really makes it difficult. the last time i flew my p9, it
        > > was very windy, i could have ridden VERY powered up, but the huge chop made
        > > it difficult, so i had to edge to keep a speed i could manage; the kite
        > > however would quickly fly to the edge and produce no power.
        > >
        > > high ar kites are good for speed, and maybe a bigger high ar for lighter
        > > winds would work ok, but in general i prefer medium aspect kites for
        > > kitesurfing for the grunt.
        > >
        > > -ssameer (mykl)
        >
        > Tubes from Peter Lynn?? Now I am the first to call people kite snobs
        > if they are against tubes or arcs or foils. I have all three.
        > But call me Crazy <"> but why not a bridled water foil
        > for light wind from Peter Lynn?? Like HQ or Flysurfer or Spleen's
        > new water foils? Peter Lynn seems to have allot of successful foils kites..
        > with high sales and so much experience? Maybe a tube and a
        > water foil? Spaghetti ?? I eat it with a parmesan cheese, butter
        > and lemon sauce. Tasty!
        > Crazy L
        >
        > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • tim grossnickle
        Am certainly not a kite designer and even more certain that VO cares about my opinions on kite design. However, IMO if VO could produce a simple more
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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          Am  certainly not a kite designer and even more certain that VO cares about my opinions on kite design.  However,  IMO if VO could produce a simple more powerful bridled foil with the same de-power and gust absorption characteristics as the ones we love on four line Arc's they would have done so a long time ago. In fact I recall some time ago posts about the Lynn's trying some of these in proto tests.  In this regard,  I learned from installing a fifth line on a 19m V-1 that when you lower the AR of an Arc with a bridle or a fifth line you increase the power,  but inhibit the kite flex that allows for gust absorption.  My V-1 with the 5th line attached to the kites top strap flattened the kite giving it lots more power in light steady breezes.  However,  when the winds picked up and got gusty it became difficult to control and frequently jerked me off my edge.  After several sessions of this not so fun riding,  I took off the 5th line happy with less low wind grunt and a lot more control.

          For land kites built for speed and not needing the same "grunt" as water kites VO's smallish narrow high aspect bridled kites I know from my own experiences on a land board and with skis on snow work fine.  However, this design pattern certainly doesn't IMO translate well to water kites which require lots of power over speed.  In this regard,  the Lynn's tried to pass their high aspect low grunt Scorpion of as a water kite when the market wanted low aspect power kites like the Syn's and Charger's.  Now VO which owns the VO brand appears to understand that with the four line user friendly low AR designs they occupy a unique place in the water kite marketplace. A spot I honestly don't see them abandoning either for bridled or tube kite designs...

          Regards,
          Tim    



        • Andre Krause
          @tim: interesting story with your fifth line on an arc. why not make it adjustable on the fly with a trimmer similiar to the front line adjusters ? or why not
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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            @tim: interesting story with your fifth line on an arc. why not make it adjustable on the fly with a trimmer similiar to the front line adjusters ? or why not put a flexible rubber line inbetween? 

            On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 5:27 PM, tim grossnickle <tog0713@...> wrote:
             
            Am  certainly not a kite designer and even more certain that VO cares about my opinions on kite design.  However,  IMO if VO could produce a simple more powerful bridled foil with the same de-power and gust absorption characteristics as the ones we love on four line Arc's they would have done so a long time ago. In fact I recall some time ago posts about the Lynn's trying some of these in proto tests.  In this regard,  I learned from installing a fifth line on a 19m V-1 that when you lower the AR of an Arc with a bridle or a fifth line you increase the power,  but inhibit the kite flex that allows for gust absorption.  My V-1 with the 5th line attached to the kites top strap flattened the kite giving it lots more power in light steady breezes.  However,  when the winds picked up and got gusty it became difficult to control and frequently jerked me off my edge.  After several sessions of this not so fun riding,  I took off the 5th line happy with less low wind grunt and a lot more control.

            For land kites built for speed and not needing the same "grunt" as water kites VO's smallish narrow high aspect bridled kites I know from my own experiences on a land board and with skis on snow work fine.  However, this design pattern certainly doesn't IMO translate well to water kites which require lots of power over speed.  In this regard,  the Lynn's tried to pass their high aspect low grunt Scorpion of as a water kite when the market wanted low aspect power kites like the Syn's and Charger's.  Now VO which owns the VO brand appears to understand that with the four line user friendly low AR designs they occupy a unique place in the water kite marketplace. A spot I honestly don't see them abandoning either for bridled or tube kite designs...

            Regards,
            Tim    




          • larkin
            Guys I get that the water foils would probably not have the same characteristics of an arc but I know the tubes certainly will not. I must admit I do hate
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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              Guys
              I get that the water foils would probably not have
              the same characteristics
              of an arc but I know the tubes certainly will not.
              I must admit I do hate pumping kites
              and this is coloring my thoughts.
              Now I would consider following the brand to a low
              wind water foil but I will not follow
              them for tube kites. There is just so much experience
              out there when it comes to inflatables.
              I do understand that they could not substitute
              the designs of the land foils for water but it seems
              they are somewhat in the lead on that front and have
              developed that reputation. But I am
              neither a business man nor a kite designer..
              maybe I am the kite snob

              L
            • tim grossnickle
              Andre, First to correct the first line of my last post. It should have read I m certain that VO cares LITTLE about my opinions .... On the flexible rubber
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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                Andre,

                First to correct the first line of my last post.  It should have read "I'm certain that VO cares LITTLE about my opinions"....

                On the flexible rubber line in the 5th line for a lower AR Arc,  my experiments with the 5th line gave me an indication that it also interfered with the basic de-power mechanism beyond the gust absorption from the flex of Arc the kite shape in gusts.  It seemed to me that with the 5th line the 19m V-1 didn't de-power as well when I released some back line pressure by pushing the bar away.  As the 5th line mod didn't take much time to set up I would think that if it worked the Lynn's and/or VO would have incorporated it into their present day designs as they have with the mods that came out of this forum like the long throw bar and adjustable shoulder straps.

                I for one am happy that VO has stuck with the simple four line design which makes for simple set-up and a forgiving responsive kite in the newer Syn and Arc designs.  In very light winds bridled foil kites like Flysurfers hold an advantage over Arc's assuming you want to ride in low winds "mowing the lawn" riding back and forth.  On those days I'd rather work around the house or go bike riding and wait for the good wind days when you can have fun riding four line Arc's...

                Regards,
                Tim



                From: Andre Krause <post@...>
                To: arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 11:34:43 AM
                Subject: Re: [arcusers] Re: PL tube kite prototype

                 

                @tim: interesting story with your fifth line on an arc. why not make it adjustable on the fly with a trimmer similiar to the front line adjusters ? or why not put a flexible rubber line inbetween? 

                On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 5:27 PM, tim grossnickle <tog0713@yahoo. com> wrote:
                 
                Am  certainly not a kite designer and even more certain that VO cares about my opinions on kite design.  However,  IMO if VO could produce a simple more powerful bridled foil with the same de-power and gust absorption characteristics as the ones we love on four line Arc's they would have done so a long time ago. In fact I recall some time ago posts about the Lynn's trying some of these in proto tests.  In this regard,  I learned from installing a fifth line on a 19m V-1 that when you lower the AR of an Arc with a bridle or a fifth line you increase the power,  but inhibit the kite flex that allows for gust absorption.  My V-1 with the 5th line attached to the kites top strap flattened the kite giving it lots more power in light steady breezes.  However,  when the winds picked up and got gusty it became difficult to control and frequently jerked me off my edge.  After several sessions of this not so fun riding,  I took off the 5th line happy with less low wind grunt and a lot more control.

                For land kites built for speed and not needing the same "grunt" as water kites VO's smallish narrow high aspect bridled kites I know from my own experiences on a land board and with skis on snow work fine.  However, this design pattern certainly doesn't IMO translate well to water kites which require lots of power over speed.  In this regard,  the Lynn's tried to pass their high aspect low grunt Scorpion of as a water kite when the market wanted low aspect power kites like the Syn's and Charger's.  Now VO which owns the VO brand appears to understand that with the four line user friendly low AR designs they occupy a unique place in the water kite marketplace. A spot I honestly don't see them abandoning either for bridled or tube kite designs...

                Regards,
                Tim    





              • aaronsaude
                I don t think PL would never abandon the ARC, They dominate it. But as a business I would love to see PL offer every kite option. I think we can all agree
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 1, 2010
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                  I don't think PL would never abandon the ARC, They dominate it. But as a business I would love to see PL offer every kite option. I think we can all agree that there are only so many ARCusers. If VO could produce an LEI that could possibly even grab a small portion of the tube market, surely they could make a profit that could benefit ARC R&D as well. And, establish brand loyalty. I don't own any tube kites, but I'd buy a pumper if Pepijn designed it. I'd love to see them make an open cell depower kite as well.

                  Basically, I'd love to see VO and PL grow. If they can generate more sales giving the masses what they want, that means more money for R&D, more demos, more everything! Keep the ARCs coming.. and the depowers, and the LEI. PL, just give us one of everything!

                  --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, tim grossnickle <tog0713@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Now VO which owns the VO brand appears to understand that with the four line user friendly low AR designs they occupy a unique place in the water kite marketplace. A spot I honestly don't see them abandoning either for bridled or tube kite designs...
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Tim
                  >
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