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Re: ckite/sle debate

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  • Wollo
    I m just asking myself if patents are standing in the way of better kites. Does anyone have an overview of the kite related patents (bridles, shapes, whatever)
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
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      I'm just asking myself if patents are standing in the way of better kites. Does anyone have
      an overview of the kite related patents (bridles, shapes, whatever) in the market, and if
      some of them lead to less-than-ideal solutions, because a manufacturer does not want to
      pay royalties? Like the bow / SLE issue? In particular, are there any patents between the
      current PL kites and an ARC low wind engine?

      Anyone happens to haven an insight? Is there something like a database of state-of-the-
      art traction kite building? Any comment greatly appreciated.

      Cheers, Wollo

      --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "mrfloat05" <kiteworks@...> wrote:
      >
      > came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me of the
      > tired old foil/LEI debate .
      > this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is missing
      > some simple points and explains things well.
      >
      > [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush ATVs/flows
      > in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall out of the
      > sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about 20cm.
      >
      > 2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function of kite
      > geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the centre of power
      > and the back line attachment/leverage point.
      >
      > These aspects are what kite designers play with to achieve different
      > performance/feel.
      >
      >
      > 3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points are the more
      > bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
      > This is why some bows need pully bars.
      >
      >
      > 4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for compitition, boost
      > etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.
      >
      > At the same time there were free ride kites made that had full
      > depower with bar travel.
      >
      >
      > 5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had very little
      > depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
      > compititions. ]
      >
      > personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans comments about
      > the venom ) that more energy should be put into explaining the
      > arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few pointers on
      > chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .
      >
    • Kitepower Sydney
      Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:45 pm (PST) came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me of the tired old foil/LEI debate . this guy makes a good pointYou know
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
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        Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:45 pm (PST)

        came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me of the
        tired old foil/LEI debate .
        this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is missing
        some simple points and explains things well.

        [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush ATVs/flows
        in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall out of the
        sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about 20cm.

        2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function of kite
        geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the centre of power
        and the back line attachment/leverage point.

        These aspects are what kite designers play with to achieve different
        performance/feel.

        3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points are the more
        bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
        This is why some bows need pully bars.

        4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for compitition, boost
        etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.

        At the same time there were free ride kites made that had full
        depower with bar travel.

        5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had very little
        depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
        compititions. ]

        personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans comments about
        the venom ) that more energy should be put into explaining the
        arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few pointers on
        chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .


        Have not followed that debate on kiteforum, but I disagree with the comments
        above.
        1/ Those kites were front heavy and luffed out of the sky if they were left
        to fly with no rear line pressure, that is a big difference to what the
        better bridled bows do.
        2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push the bar out to
        release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed bridled bows,
        no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
        3/There is more to it than that, but it is an explanation that is easy to
        understand, although there is a lot more going on than just the distance
        between the tow points. One design criteria that they wanted to keep was a
        small sheeting range at the bar, similar to most C kites.
        4/Designers were stuck with the C shape design, they could design in a
        higher lift kite, but in doing so got lumbered with a lot of undesirable
        traits as well, to get more depower and other user friendly performance
        traits the kite had to change shape and get flatter.
        5/ They were just designed to the best of the designers knowledge, most
        designers are copiers, not true innovators and inventors. Hang time and
        height had more to do with the riders ball size, than it did kite type or
        brand. That said I thought the Legainoux designed inflatables had the dge on
        others, same as the Lynn "arc" style kite is superior to anything that has
        appeared to compete with it so far

        Jarman is not from planet Earth or this world, he is referring to a kites
        performance when flown in pure liquid methane.



        Cya and

        Goodwinds

        Steve McCormack
        www.kitepower.com.au






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Wollo
        Aye, PMU s Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers. Sweet. Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
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          Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers. Sweet.

          Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.

          --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@...> wrote:
          ...
          > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push the bar out to
          > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed bridled bows,
          > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
          ...
          > Steve McCormack
        • Gideon Low
          No kidding. I still can t believe how few people realize that it is PL bar design, and not PL kites, that s the only thing holding anybody back from having
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
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            No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it is
            PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding anybody
            back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE kite.
            It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders ever
            venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option of a
            kite.

            The blame is squarely with the group responsible for bar-design
            strategy. The decision to use a short-throw bar in order to make PL
            kites appear more like blimps was wrong. You don't dummy-down an
            amazing kite design with the wrong bar design, you provide the best
            tools to take advantage of the kite and then work hard to educate the
            market.

            Then again, judging from the inability to deliver new kites to eager
            buyers, perhaps the lost business and widespread misconceptions of PL
            kite capabilities takes some pressure off the failed procedures to
            produce and distribution new kites in a timely manner.

            Hopefully things are changing . . .

            Cheers,

            Gideon

            --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
            >
            > Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers.
            Sweet.
            >
            > Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
            >
            > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@> wrote:
            > ...
            > > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push the
            bar out to
            > > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed
            bridled bows,
            > > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
            > ...
            > > Steve McCormack
            >
          • Wollo
            And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min (getting you a beer and opening the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 1, 2007
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              And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min (getting you a beer and opening
              the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as difficult as tying your shoe laces.
              Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a new level. Difficult to make a
              choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with gin tonic yet, but might work
              as well.

              cheers, Wollo
              --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@...> wrote:
              >
              > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it is
              > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding anybody
              > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE kite.
              > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders ever
              > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option of a
              > kite.
            • kermitclein2000
              Wollo can you shed light on the kite on a new level It s very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy with my current short throw. Is there only
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
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                Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'

                It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy with my
                current short throw.
                Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the kite to
                catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing just plain
                old-skool big-airs and stuff?

                Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just use your long
                throw?

                And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like riding against
                the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?

                breaking my head on this one...

                thanks,
                Maarten



                --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
                >
                > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min
                (getting you a beer and opening
                > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a new
                level. Difficult to make a
                > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with
                gin tonic yet, but might work
                > as well.
                >
                > cheers, Wollo
                > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                > >
                > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it
                is
                > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                anybody
                > > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE
                kite.
                > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders
                ever
                > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option
                of a
                > > kite.
                >
              • Wollo
                hi Maarten I try to explain what the long throw did for me: 1. I find a trim setting for the depower strap for that session (like general wind strength) and
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
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                  hi Maarten I try to explain what the long throw did for me:

                  1. I find a trim setting for the depower strap for that session (like general wind strength)
                  and after that don't touch it anymore.

                  2. I fly it without stopper, much prefer it like that.

                  3. the usable throw goes from stall (which is perfect to put your kite wherever you want it
                  in the window, as far downwind as you like, even as far as a spinnaker) to complete slack
                  backlines - read max. depower - if I let go of the bar, and anything between.

                  3a. If in a powered move through the window you let go of the bar, you find yourself
                  sitting right on your ass because the kite has a power switch on/off now. That, together
                  with the autozenith, is a really nice feature.

                  4. the "sheeting in" to produce a kick of power is taken to a new level, as you can sheet in
                  to a much higher AoA which results in a boot up the butt if the kite was moving fast
                  enough. Try this with a jump and you will see.

                  5. There are other interesting uses of stalling the kite: a quick full stall as a sort of
                  depower (kite sinks down to the ground and allows to hold down pretty big wind), to
                  control the kite most effectively when it starts doing funny stuff in turbulences, to keep it
                  from overflying if you bail a jump, to put it wherever you want in the window, to land it
                  downwind without the risk you take when you grab the backlines, and so on.

                  6. I find that the long throw works especially good with my modded kites, as BSR and later
                  Lach's mod allow the kite to be used with a lot more backline tension than the factory
                  ones.

                  I am still playing with the possibilities.

                  cheers, Wollo

                  --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "kermitclein2000" <kermitclein2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'
                  >
                  > It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy with my
                  > current short throw.
                  > Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the kite to
                  > catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing just plain
                  > old-skool big-airs and stuff?
                  >
                  > Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just use your long
                  > throw?
                  >
                  > And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like riding against
                  > the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?
                  >
                  > breaking my head on this one...
                  >
                  > thanks,
                  > Maarten
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min
                  > (getting you a beer and opening
                  > > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                  > difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                  > > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a new
                  > level. Difficult to make a
                  > > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with
                  > gin tonic yet, but might work
                  > > as well.
                  > >
                  > > cheers, Wollo
                  > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it
                  > is
                  > > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                  > anybody
                  > > > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE
                  > kite.
                  > > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders
                  > ever
                  > > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option
                  > of a
                  > > > kite.
                  > >
                  >
                • kermitclein2000
                  Hi wollo, thanks, very good clarifications! I can imagine myself using that bar. Maarten ps. I took the courtesy of posting your answer in the FAQ database.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
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                    Hi wollo,

                    thanks, very good clarifications! I can imagine myself using that bar.

                    Maarten

                    ps. I took the courtesy of posting your answer in the FAQ database.
                    hope you don't mind. layout got scr e w e d though



                    --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > hi Maarten I try to explain what the long throw did for me:
                    >
                    > 1. I find a trim setting for the depower strap for that session
                    (like general wind strength)
                    > and after that don't touch it anymore.
                    >
                    > 2. I fly it without stopper, much prefer it like that.
                    >
                    > 3. the usable throw goes from stall (which is perfect to put your
                    kite wherever you want it
                    > in the window, as far downwind as you like, even as far as a
                    spinnaker) to complete slack
                    > backlines - read max. depower - if I let go of the bar, and
                    anything between.
                    >
                    > 3a. If in a powered move through the window you let go of the bar,
                    you find yourself
                    > sitting right on your ass because the kite has a power switch on/
                    off now. That, together
                    > with the autozenith, is a really nice feature.
                    >
                    > 4. the "sheeting in" to produce a kick of power is taken to a new
                    level, as you can sheet in
                    > to a much higher AoA which results in a boot up the butt if the
                    kite was moving fast
                    > enough. Try this with a jump and you will see.
                    >
                    > 5. There are other interesting uses of stalling the kite: a quick
                    full stall as a sort of
                    > depower (kite sinks down to the ground and allows to hold down
                    pretty big wind), to
                    > control the kite most effectively when it starts doing funny stuff
                    in turbulences, to keep it
                    > from overflying if you bail a jump, to put it wherever you want in
                    the window, to land it
                    > downwind without the risk you take when you grab the backlines, and
                    so on.
                    >
                    > 6. I find that the long throw works especially good with my modded
                    kites, as BSR and later
                    > Lach's mod allow the kite to be used with a lot more backline
                    tension than the factory
                    > ones.
                    >
                    > I am still playing with the possibilities.
                    >
                    > cheers, Wollo
                    >
                    > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com,
                    "kermitclein2000" <kermitclein2000@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'
                    > >
                    > > It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy
                    with my
                    > > current short throw.
                    > > Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the kite to
                    > > catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing just
                    plain
                    > > old-skool big-airs and stuff?
                    > >
                    > > Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just use your
                    long
                    > > throw?
                    > >
                    > > And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like riding
                    against
                    > > the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?
                    > >
                    > > breaking my head on this one...
                    > >
                    > > thanks,
                    > > Maarten
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min
                    > > (getting you a beer and opening
                    > > > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                    > > difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                    > > > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a
                    new
                    > > level. Difficult to make a
                    > > > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this
                    with
                    > > gin tonic yet, but might work
                    > > > as well.
                    > > >
                    > > > cheers, Wollo
                    > > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@>
                    wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize
                    that it
                    > > is
                    > > > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing
                    holding
                    > > anybody
                    > > > > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE
                    > > kite.
                    > > > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few
                    riders
                    > > ever
                    > > > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar
                    option
                    > > of a
                    > > > > kite.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Brent Helmstaedt
                    Changing to a longer depower throw helped me make fundamental changes to my riding stance. Have been riding this way now for a full summer and winter. In
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
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                      Changing to a longer depower throw helped me make fundamental changes
                      to my riding stance. Have been riding this way now for a full summer
                      and winter.

                      In short it has allowed me to ride much more upright and avoid
                      bending at the waist (poo stance). That used to be my way of edging
                      against excess power, but the venoms can depower enough to let you
                      ride out all but the worst gusts upright provided you have the
                      reach.

                      That being said, bow riders are notorious for their poo stance, so it
                      is something that takes active learning and simply changing to a
                      longer depower throw without a thought to your stance may actually
                      make it worse. I personally think the throw should be set to your
                      comfortable arms reach so you never have to bend at the waist to
                      sheet out farther, and only need to do the leg press in the most
                      extreme gusts or when you end up with the kite in the wrong place at
                      the wrong time. I have pretty long arms and get somewhere between 40
                      and 50 cm of throw on my bars without having to really reach.

                      In my opinion riding stance is one of the major differences between
                      those that excell in kiting and those that stall as the underside of
                      intermediate. For me riding the board flatter has opened up the
                      boardsport aspect of kiting and I enjoy the ride as aposed to
                      constantly edging against excess power.

                      PL probably like to limit depower as to keep the kites safely in the
                      window. Anyone who has a good understanding of what keeps a kite
                      from overflying (tension in the rear lines) and the ability to apply
                      that while riding can benifit safely from the extra depower.
                    • Kitepower Sydney
                      Posted by: Wollo weiss@hkmw.de Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
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                        Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 10:43 pm (PST)

                        Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers.
                        Sweet.

                        Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.

                        You need to get that chip off your shoulder mate. :-) This is a thread
                        about Ckite/SLE kite debate! Its Ok to talk about other kites, especially
                        in relation to foils and arc variants.

                        If you think I have anything to do with that fool PMU that posts on
                        kiteforum, then that says a lot about you and really nothing about me.

                        Kitepower would be by far the biggest seller of foil kites in Australia, why
                        would I post crap like that PMU idiot, when my stores sells the best brands
                        of foils in the world, by the truckload, including Peter Lynn kites????

                        Only someone with a closed or biased mind would say that any one style of
                        kite is superior to others, if you like your kite, good for you! I like all
                        kites (and most of their owners!).

                        If you think that simply putting a longer depower line on a Venom will give
                        you the same drop the bar 95% depower "on the fly" that a bridled inflatable
                        bow has, then you are deluded or simply being misleading, perhaps for
                        commercial reasons. What about the superior and simple pull one rear leader
                        relaunch - another feature of that bridled bow kite design?

                        A longer depower line will not actually increase the wind range of the kite,
                        but it will allow you to keep riding the same kite in winds that are not
                        optimal for you. In the end you will be riding pooman and will not be able
                        to steer the kite properly, but just before that you can boost to the moon
                        and say hi to aaron.

                        A long throw bar and a simple means of shortening the rear lines so that you
                        can maintain a comfortable arm position would be the best way to exploit the
                        wind range of a Venom, which is bigger than the average 4 lined C kite but
                        not as big as a bridled bow.

                        I fly lots of different kites and I do experiment with bars. If the Venom2
                        or latest variants did have the same performance and features I would know,
                        I was in Adelaide last weekend and there were a couple of Scorpions there. I
                        did not get to try one, but it was obvious that they were similar in depower
                        range to the Venoms.

                        Now what is Peter up to with the SLARC???



                        Cya and

                        Goodwinds

                        Steve McCormack
                        www.kitepower.com.au


                        ________________________________

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                        Messages In This Digest (16 Messages)


                        1a.
                        Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                        1b.
                        ckite/sle debate From: Kitepower Sydney
                        1c.
                        Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                        1d.
                        Re: ckite/sle debate From: Gideon Low
                        1e.
                        Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                        1f.
                        Re: ckite/sle debate From: kermitclein2000

                        2a.
                        Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd
                        2b.
                        Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd
                        2c.
                        Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd

                        3.
                        V2 13 rocks! From: coastalisland4

                        4a.
                        POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From: kiteboard2000
                        4b.
                        Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From: Gideon Low
                        4c.
                        Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From: M Silva

                        5.
                        Wind range Venom 10 vs. 8? From: ichiman1

                        6.1.
                        Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision? From: M Silva
                        6.2.
                        Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision? From: M Silva

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                        Messages


                        1a.

                        Re: ckite/sle debate
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27912;_ylc=X3oDMTJycjVia2ZlB
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                        Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:34 am (PST)

                        I'm just asking myself if patents are standing in the way of better
                        kites. Does anyone have
                        an overview of the kite related patents (bridles, shapes, whatever)
                        in the market, and if
                        some of them lead to less-than-ideal solutions, because a
                        manufacturer does not want to
                        pay royalties? Like the bow / SLE issue? In particular, are there
                        any patents between the
                        current PL kites and an ARC low wind engine?

                        Anyone happens to haven an insight? Is there something like a
                        database of state-of-the-
                        art traction kite building? Any comment greatly appreciated.

                        Cheers, Wollo

                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "mrfloat05" <kiteworks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me of the
                        > tired old foil/LEI debate .
                        > this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is missing
                        > some simple points and explains things well.
                        >
                        > [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush ATVs/flows
                        > in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall out of
                        the
                        > sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about 20cm.
                        >
                        > 2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function of kite
                        > geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the centre of
                        power
                        > and the back line attachment/leverage point.
                        >
                        > These aspects are what kite designers play with to achieve
                        different
                        > performance/feel.
                        >
                        >
                        > 3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points are the
                        more
                        > bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
                        > This is why some bows need pully bars.
                        >
                        >
                        > 4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for compitition,
                        boost
                        > etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.
                        >
                        > At the same time there were free ride kites made that had full
                        > depower with bar travel.
                        >
                        >
                        > 5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had very
                        little
                        > depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
                        > compititions. ]
                        >
                        > personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans comments
                        about
                        > the venom ) that more energy should be put into explaining the
                        > arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few pointers on
                        > chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .
                        >


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                        1b.

                        ckite/sle debate
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27917;_ylc=X3oDMTJycjVzbmI4B
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                        Posted by: "Kitepower Sydney" sydney@...
                        <mailto:sydney@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:sydney@...?Subject= Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%20debate> sydney4001
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/sydney4001>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:21 pm (PST)

                        Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:45 pm (PST)

                        came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me of the
                        tired old foil/LEI debate .
                        this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is missing
                        some simple points and explains things well.

                        [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush ATVs/flows
                        in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall out of the
                        sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about 20cm.

                        2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function of kite
                        geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the centre of power
                        and the back line attachment/leverage point.

                        These aspects are what kite designers play with to achieve different
                        performance/feel.

                        3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points are the more
                        bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
                        This is why some bows need pully bars.

                        4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for compitition, boost
                        etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.

                        At the same time there were free ride kites made that had full
                        depower with bar travel.

                        5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had very little
                        depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
                        compititions. ]

                        personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans comments about
                        the venom ) that more energy should be put into explaining the
                        arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few pointers on
                        chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .

                        Have not followed that debate on kiteforum, but I disagree with the
                        comments
                        above.
                        1/ Those kites were front heavy and luffed out of the sky if they
                        were left
                        to fly with no rear line pressure, that is a big difference to what
                        the
                        better bridled bows do.
                        2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push the
                        bar out to
                        release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed
                        bridled bows,
                        no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
                        3/There is more to it than that, but it is an explanation that is
                        easy to
                        understand, although there is a lot more going on than just the
                        distance
                        between the tow points. One design criteria that they wanted to keep
                        was a
                        small sheeting range at the bar, similar to most C kites.
                        4/Designers were stuck with the C shape design, they could design in
                        a
                        higher lift kite, but in doing so got lumbered with a lot of
                        undesirable
                        traits as well, to get more depower and other user friendly
                        performance
                        traits the kite had to change shape and get flatter.
                        5/ They were just designed to the best of the designers knowledge,
                        most
                        designers are copiers, not true innovators and inventors. Hang time
                        and
                        height had more to do with the riders ball size, than it did kite
                        type or
                        brand. That said I thought the Legainoux designed inflatables had
                        the dge on
                        others, same as the Lynn "arc" style kite is superior to anything
                        that has
                        appeared to compete with it so far

                        Jarman is not from planet Earth or this world, he is referring to a
                        kites
                        performance when flown in pure liquid methane.


                        Cya and

                        Goodwinds

                        Steve McCormack
                        www.kitepower.com.au

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        Re: ckite/sle debate
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27919;_ylc=X3oDMTJybGc5OGNqB
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                        Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 10:43 pm (PST)

                        Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers.
                        Sweet.

                        Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.

                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@...> wrote:
                        ...
                        > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push the
                        bar out to
                        > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed
                        bridled bows,
                        > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
                        ...
                        > Steve McCormack


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                        1d.

                        Re: ckite/sle debate
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27920;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMnNuMTB0B
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                        Posted by: "Gideon Low" gideonlow@...
                        <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject= <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> gideonlow
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gideonlow>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:13 pm (PST)

                        No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it is
                        PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                        anybody
                        back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE kite.
                        It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders
                        ever
                        venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option of a
                        kite.

                        The blame is squarely with the group responsible for bar-design
                        strategy. The decision to use a short-throw bar in order to make PL
                        kites appear more like blimps was wrong. You don't dummy-down an
                        amazing kite design with the wrong bar design, you provide the best
                        tools to take advantage of the kite and then work hard to educate
                        the
                        market.

                        Then again, judging from the inability to deliver new kites to eager
                        buyers, perhaps the lost business and widespread misconceptions of
                        PL
                        kite capabilities takes some pressure off the failed procedures to
                        produce and distribution new kites in a timely manner.

                        Hopefully things are changing . . .

                        Cheers,

                        Gideon

                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on ARCusers.
                        Sweet.
                        >
                        > Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
                        >
                        > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@> wrote:
                        > ...
                        > > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly" push
                        the
                        bar out to
                        > > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux designed
                        bridled bows,
                        > > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
                        > ...
                        > > Steve McCormack
                        >


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                        Re: ckite/sle debate
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                        Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:52 pm (PST)

                        And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min (getting
                        you a beer and opening
                        the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                        difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                        Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a new
                        level. Difficult to make a
                        choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with
                        gin tonic yet, but might work
                        as well.

                        cheers, Wollo
                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it
                        is
                        > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                        anybody
                        > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE kite.
                        > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders
                        ever
                        > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option of
                        a
                        > kite.


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                        Re: ckite/sle debate
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                        Posted by: "kermitclein2000" kermitclein2000@...
                        <mailto:kermitclein2000@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:kermitclein2000@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                        Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> kermitclein2000
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/kermitclein2000>


                        Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:21 am (PST)

                        Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'

                        It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy with
                        my
                        current short throw.
                        Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the kite to
                        catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing just plain
                        old-skool big-airs and stuff?

                        Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just use your
                        long
                        throw?

                        And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like riding
                        against
                        the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?

                        breaking my head on this one...

                        thanks,
                        Maarten

                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min
                        (getting you a beer and opening
                        > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                        difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                        > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a
                        new
                        level. Difficult to make a
                        > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with
                        gin tonic yet, but might work
                        > as well.
                        >
                        > cheers, Wollo
                        > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it
                        is
                        > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                        anybody
                        > > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE
                        kite.
                        > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few
                        riders
                        ever
                        > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option
                        of a
                        > > kite.
                        >


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                        V2 13 rocks!
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27916;_ylc=X3oDMTJycWQ4cG5tB
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                        Posted by: "coastalisland4" sinsond@...
                        <mailto:sinsond@...?Subject= <mailto:sinsond@...?Subject=
                        Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> coastalisland4
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/coastalisland4>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 3:09 pm (PST)

                        Spent at least 4 hours on the WA coast yesterday in the waves on my
                        V2-13. Not much more that I could ask for in a kite. 15-20 kt with
                        some lulls and gusts. Got rolled in some white water a few times and
                        it's just nice to know the kite is going to be there when I surface.
                        Up and away before the next set comes in. Really gave me the
                        confidence to be out there solo in the first place. Good turning,
                        good power & depower, good upwind, good lift, stable...

                        Great kite as is. Cant't wait for the next quantum leap.

                        Gunnar, if I could put in a request to VO ... I preferred the
                        graphics on the Bomba, Guerilla and Phantom. It's cool to see a
                        unique pattern in the sky. A big G was out on the other side in the
                        bay and that big bull's eye looked great, even from a half a mile
                        away.

                        Dave


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                        POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
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                        Posted by: "kiteboard2000" kiteboarder@...
                        <mailto:kiteboarder@...?Subject=
                        <mailto:kiteboarder@...?Subject=
                        Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        kiteboard2000 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/kiteboard2000>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 7:54 pm (PST)

                        I think only the turning-to-power ratio could use improvement, not
                        necessarily power per meter. Even heavyweights would be happy if a
                        19 simply maintained its low end, but turned like a 13, because then
                        there could be a 22 (with even more low end) that would turn like a
                        16.

                        We ride ARCs because they excel in many ways: Gust handling, solo
                        launch/land, stability (auto-zenith & anti-luff), range, self-
                        inflation, low maintenance, etc.

                        I think many would agree that of all these traits, the only ones
                        we'd
                        want to sacrifice to get the improved turning-to-power would be SOME
                        auto-zenith (auto-pilot would be fine, just not LEI-like auto-DIVE),
                        & SOME self inflation (inflatable tip struts would be okay). Bridles
                        could be okay if they didn't interfere with the remainder of the
                        attributes listed.

                        Recent personal experience unfortunately seems to indicate that
                        while
                        every other ARC (including the V2) has enough anti-luff for my local
                        conditions, the Scorpion doesn't, so I do NOT want to sacrifice any
                        of that.

                        If "less direct feedback" means lower bar load that would be fine by
                        ME, as long as it's not as light as a 2006 Globe Sonic, which had so
                        little feedback that when a gust hit the kite would yank you before
                        you knew to sheet out.

                        Mel


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                        Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
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                        Posted by: "Gideon Low" gideonlow@...
                        <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject= <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=
                        Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        gideonlow <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gideonlow>


                        Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:21 pm (PST)

                        I agree. I think what we're all looking for is the faster turning
                        kites in any given wind range--regardless of the actual size. I took
                        my S-840 for a spin a couple of weeks ago and was pretty surprised
                        how
                        much slower than the V10 it is. The 840 certainly has quite a bit
                        more power parked, but the V10 easily makes up for it with quicker
                        turns/faster flying speed.

                        Adding one more kite that goes a little lower than the current
                        maximum
                        bottom-end for the biggest kites would plug a big hole in the
                        product
                        line-up. IMHO, the super light wind kite could be a significantly
                        different design than the rest (and perhaps should be) rather than
                        just a larger size. You have to make far less design compromises if
                        a
                        low-wind kite doesn't have to be the same basic design as one
                        intended
                        for 25 kts of wind. Throw-in bridles, an LE tube, whatever.
                        Light-wind riding is different anyway.

                        Cheers,

                        Gideon

                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        , "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think only the turning-to-power ratio could use improvement, not
                        > necessarily power per meter. Even heavyweights would be happy if a
                        > 19 simply maintained its low end, but turned like a 13, because
                        then
                        > there could be a 22 (with even more low end) that would turn like
                        a
                        > 16.
                        >
                        > We ride ARCs because they excel in many ways: Gust handling, solo
                        > launch/land, stability (auto-zenith & anti-luff), range, self-
                        > inflation, low maintenance, etc.
                        >
                        > I think many would agree that of all these traits, the only ones
                        we'd
                        > want to sacrifice to get the improved turning-to-power would be
                        SOME
                        > auto-zenith (auto-pilot would be fine, just not LEI-like
                        auto-DIVE),
                        > & SOME self inflation (inflatable tip struts would be okay).
                        Bridles
                        > could be okay if they didn't interfere with the remainder of the
                        > attributes listed.
                        >
                        > Recent personal experience unfortunately seems to indicate that
                        while
                        > every other ARC (including the V2) has enough anti-luff for my
                        local
                        > conditions, the Scorpion doesn't, so I do NOT want to sacrifice
                        any
                        > of that.
                        >
                        > If "less direct feedback" means lower bar load that would be fine
                        by
                        > ME, as long as it's not as light as a 2006 Globe Sonic, which had
                        so
                        > little feedback that when a gust hit the kite would yank you
                        before
                        > you knew to sheet out.
                        >
                        > Mel
                        >


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                        Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27927;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMzVtOTh0B
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                        Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                        <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                        Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E>
                        djteklife <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>


                        Mon Apr 2, 2007 2:37 am (PST)

                        Mel, I¹ve wondered this dozens of times when I read your posts about
                        the
                        super crap wind @ your local spot; where you at?

                        mykl
                        --
                        Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        5.

                        Wind range Venom 10 vs. 8?
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27923;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaGdxMzZkB
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                        Posted by: "ichiman1" ichiman1@...
                        <mailto:ichiman1@...?Subject= <mailto:ichiman1@...?Subject=
                        Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F>
                        Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F> ichiman1
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/ichiman1>


                        Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:15 am (PST)

                        I got my hands full waveriding the V10 in 30-33Knots wind... doable
                        but I get yanked pretty good when the kite flying is not perfect.

                        According to the PL site the V8 has 5 knots higher wind range... is
                        that true? Would it be just as well flying the V10 on 15-20m lines?

                        87Kg rider on mutant.

                        Thanks for any advice before I dump a load of cash on a new kite or
                        snip-snip a good set of lines.....


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                        6.1.

                        Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision?
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27925;_ylc=X3oDMTJydDBncmtrB
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                        Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                        <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                        Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F>
                        Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F> djteklife
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>


                        Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:39 am (PST)

                        On 3/27/07 9:05 PM, "Dave" <acolytedave@...
                        <mailto:acolytedave%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

                        >
                        > I don't like
                        > the idea of an inflatable LE, but i have said before i reckon
                        there is
                        > scope for an inflatable strut INSTEAD of the spars.

                        I am for the inflatable spars/struts. You can make them with a heavy
                        duty
                        bladder and fabric combo that you just have to pump up once (really
                        stiff),
                        that would be nice and have the added benefit of making the tips not
                        sink,
                        like they do now.

                        The less lines, the better!

                        Auto zenith is a great feature, but I¹d give it up for more power.

                        At the risk of getting too complicated, more adjusters would seem
                        ideal in
                        order to tweak the kites more, otherwise, we have to keep stitching
                        and
                        unstitching to try out different strap mods/settings.

                        mykl

                        --
                        "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." - Governor George
                        W. Bush
                        to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        6.2.

                        Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision?
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                        Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                        <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                        Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F>
                        Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F> djteklife
                        <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>


                        Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:41 am (PST)

                        I concur.

                        On 3/27/07 9:22 PM, "Greg" <Greg.Walsh@...
                        <mailto:Greg.Walsh%40bigpond.com> > wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > BTW. If you want to increase the market share for Arcs you need to
                        > market them better. I am currently flying Cabrinha Switchblade II.
                        I
                        > can walk into a shop. Demo any size I want. Buy the kite and walk
                        out
                        > the door. Everything works straight out of the bag.
                        >
                        > If I want an Arc I need to track down some guy who sells them.
                        Find
                        > out he is probably a gumby who can barely stay upwind. Maybe get
                        to
                        > try out an older model on the beach. Then camp out on the Arcuser
                        > group to find out how to make it work.
                        >
                        > Meanwhile, I get to watch guys who can't evem waterstart after 3
                        > years of kiting. Every 3 years or so an Aaron Jarman or Lach might
                        > come through and show us what these thnigs are capable of.
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • mrfloat05
                        SLARC is Peter s single line arc I think.(Even though it has a line to each tip it flys off the one line stable with no rear lines ).Static kite ,kite festival
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 2, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          SLARC is Peter's single line arc I think.(Even though it has a line
                          to each tip it flys off the one line stable with no rear
                          lines ).Static kite ,kite festival type kite.

                          Cheers

                          Lach--- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 10:43 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on
                          ARCusers.
                          > Sweet.
                          >
                          > Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
                          >
                          > You need to get that chip off your shoulder mate. :-) This is a
                          thread
                          > about Ckite/SLE kite debate! Its Ok to talk about other kites,
                          especially
                          > in relation to foils and arc variants.
                          >
                          > If you think I have anything to do with that fool PMU that posts on
                          > kiteforum, then that says a lot about you and really nothing about
                          me.
                          >
                          > Kitepower would be by far the biggest seller of foil kites in
                          Australia, why
                          > would I post crap like that PMU idiot, when my stores sells the
                          best brands
                          > of foils in the world, by the truckload, including Peter Lynn
                          kites????
                          >
                          > Only someone with a closed or biased mind would say that any one
                          style of
                          > kite is superior to others, if you like your kite, good for you! I
                          like all
                          > kites (and most of their owners!).
                          >
                          > If you think that simply putting a longer depower line on a Venom
                          will give
                          > you the same drop the bar 95% depower "on the fly" that a bridled
                          inflatable
                          > bow has, then you are deluded or simply being misleading, perhaps
                          for
                          > commercial reasons. What about the superior and simple pull one
                          rear leader
                          > relaunch - another feature of that bridled bow kite design?
                          >
                          > A longer depower line will not actually increase the wind range of
                          the kite,
                          > but it will allow you to keep riding the same kite in winds that
                          are not
                          > optimal for you. In the end you will be riding pooman and will not
                          be able
                          > to steer the kite properly, but just before that you can boost to
                          the moon
                          > and say hi to aaron.
                          >
                          > A long throw bar and a simple means of shortening the rear lines
                          so that you
                          > can maintain a comfortable arm position would be the best way to
                          exploit the
                          > wind range of a Venom, which is bigger than the average 4 lined C
                          kite but
                          > not as big as a bridled bow.
                          >
                          > I fly lots of different kites and I do experiment with bars. If
                          the Venom2
                          > or latest variants did have the same performance and features I
                          would know,
                          > I was in Adelaide last weekend and there were a couple of
                          Scorpions there. I
                          > did not get to try one, but it was obvious that they were similar
                          in depower
                          > range to the Venoms.
                          >
                          > Now what is Peter up to with the SLARC???
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Cya and
                          >
                          > Goodwinds
                          >
                          > Steve McCormack
                          > www.kitepower.com.au
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          >
                          > From: arcusers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com]
                          > Sent: Monday, 2 April 2007 7:41 PM
                          > To: arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [arcusers] Digest Number 2338
                          >
                          >
                          > arcusers kitesurf group
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbzdrOWNzBF9TAzk3
                          MzU5NzE
                          >
                          1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BHNlYwNoZHIEc2xrA2hwaARz
                          dGltZQM
                          > xMTc1NTA2ODU1>
                          >
                          > Messages In This Digest (16 Messages)
                          >
                          >
                          > 1a.
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                          > 1b.
                          > ckite/sle debate From: Kitepower Sydney
                          > 1c.
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                          > 1d.
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate From: Gideon Low
                          > 1e.
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate From: Wollo
                          > 1f.
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate From: kermitclein2000
                          >
                          > 2a.
                          > Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd
                          > 2b.
                          > Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd
                          > 2c.
                          > Dataentry providing websites From: jenny raaicd
                          >
                          > 3.
                          > V2 13 rocks! From: coastalisland4
                          >
                          > 4a.
                          > POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From:
                          kiteboard2000
                          > 4b.
                          > Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From: Gideon
                          Low
                          > 4c.
                          > Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc. From: M Silva
                          >
                          > 5.
                          > Wind range Venom 10 vs. 8? From: ichiman1
                          >
                          > 6.1.
                          > Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision? From: M Silva
                          > 6.2.
                          > Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision? From: M Silva
                          >
                          > View All Topics
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcWhiYW8
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                          > Messages
                          >
                          >
                          > 1a.
                          >
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27912;_ylc=X3oDMTJycj
                          Via2ZlB
                          >
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:34 am (PST)
                          >
                          > I'm just asking myself if patents are standing in the way
                          of better
                          > kites. Does anyone have
                          > an overview of the kite related patents (bridles, shapes,
                          whatever)
                          > in the market, and if
                          > some of them lead to less-than-ideal solutions, because a
                          > manufacturer does not want to
                          > pay royalties? Like the bow / SLE issue? In particular,
                          are there
                          > any patents between the
                          > current PL kites and an ARC low wind engine?
                          >
                          > Anyone happens to haven an insight? Is there something
                          like a
                          > database of state-of-the-
                          > art traction kite building? Any comment greatly
                          appreciated.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Wollo
                          >
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "mrfloat05" <kiteworks@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind
                          me of the
                          > > tired old foil/LEI debate .
                          > > this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is
                          missing
                          > > some simple points and explains things well.
                          > >
                          > > [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush
                          ATVs/flows
                          > > in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall
                          out of
                          > the
                          > > sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about
                          20cm.
                          > >
                          > > 2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function
                          of kite
                          > > geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the
                          centre of
                          > power
                          > > and the back line attachment/leverage point.
                          > >
                          > > These aspects are what kite designers play with to
                          achieve
                          > different
                          > > performance/feel.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points
                          are the
                          > more
                          > > bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
                          > > This is why some bows need pully bars.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for
                          compitition,
                          > boost
                          > > etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.
                          > >
                          > > At the same time there were free ride kites made that
                          had full
                          > > depower with bar travel.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had
                          very
                          > little
                          > > depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
                          > > compititions. ]
                          > >
                          > > personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans
                          comments
                          > about
                          > > the venom ) that more energy should be put into
                          explaining the
                          > > arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few
                          pointers on
                          > > chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply to
                          group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
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                          20debate>
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                          > Messages in this topic
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                          JvdDdtB
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTE->
                          (7)
                          > 1b.
                          >
                          > ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27917;_ylc=X3oDMTJycj
                          VzbmI4B
                          >
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                          >
                          > Posted by: "Kitepower Sydney" sydney@...
                          > <mailto:sydney@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:sydney@...?Subject= Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%20debate> sydney4001
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/sydney4001>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:21 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:45 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > came across this debate on kiteforum .The views remind me
                          of the
                          > tired old foil/LEI debate .
                          > this guy makes a good pointYou know this whole thread is
                          missing
                          > some simple points and explains things well.
                          >
                          > [1/ High depower kites are nothing new, my first airush
                          ATVs/flows
                          > in 02 gave full depower on max bar travel and would fall
                          out of the
                          > sky depowered if you didnt limit the bar travel to about
                          20cm.
                          >
                          > 2/ High depower is not limited to Bows, it is a function
                          of kite
                          > geometry ie the front line tow point relative to the
                          centre of power
                          > and the back line attachment/leverage point.
                          >
                          > These aspects are what kite designers play with to achieve
                          different
                          > performance/feel.
                          >
                          > 3/ The wider apart the front and back attachment points
                          are the more
                          > bar travel needed to achieve the same sheeting angle.
                          > This is why some bows need pully bars.
                          >
                          > 4/ Alot of early C shape kites were designed for
                          compitition, boost
                          > etc and were made with little or no depower on the bar.
                          >
                          > At the same time there were free ride kites made that had
                          full
                          > depower with bar travel.
                          >
                          > 5/ There are alot of early flat kites and foils that had
                          very little
                          > depower cos they were designed to boost and win hangtime
                          > compititions. ]
                          >
                          > personally I feel (particularly when you read Jarmans
                          comments about
                          > the venom ) that more energy should be put into explaining
                          the
                          > arc/venom concept to the wider world .There are so few
                          pointers on
                          > chat groups etc to find out more about PLK .
                          >
                          > Have not followed that debate on kiteforum, but I disagree
                          with the
                          > comments
                          > above.
                          > 1/ Those kites were front heavy and luffed out of the sky
                          if they
                          > were left
                          > to fly with no rear line pressure, that is a big
                          difference to what
                          > the
                          > better bridled bows do.
                          > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly"
                          push the
                          > bar out to
                          > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux
                          designed
                          > bridled bows,
                          > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
                          > 3/There is more to it than that, but it is an explanation
                          that is
                          > easy to
                          > understand, although there is a lot more going on than
                          just the
                          > distance
                          > between the tow points. One design criteria that they
                          wanted to keep
                          > was a
                          > small sheeting range at the bar, similar to most C kites.
                          > 4/Designers were stuck with the C shape design, they could
                          design in
                          > a
                          > higher lift kite, but in doing so got lumbered with a lot
                          of
                          > undesirable
                          > traits as well, to get more depower and other user friendly
                          > performance
                          > traits the kite had to change shape and get flatter.
                          > 5/ They were just designed to the best of the designers
                          knowledge,
                          > most
                          > designers are copiers, not true innovators and inventors.
                          Hang time
                          > and
                          > height had more to do with the riders ball size, than it
                          did kite
                          > type or
                          > brand. That said I thought the Legainoux designed
                          inflatables had
                          > the dge on
                          > others, same as the Lynn "arc" style kite is superior to
                          anything
                          > that has
                          > appeared to compete with it so far
                          >
                          > Jarman is not from planet Earth or this world, he is
                          referring to a
                          > kites
                          > performance when flown in pure liquid methane.
                          >
                          >
                          > Cya and
                          >
                          > Goodwinds
                          >
                          > Steve McCormack
                          > www.kitepower.com.au
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:sydney@...?Subject=Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply
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                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re%3Ackite%2Fsle%
                          20debate>
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                          > 1c.
                          >
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27919;_ylc=X3oDMTJybG
                          c5OGNqB
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
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                          >
                          > Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 10:43 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on
                          ARCusers.
                          > Sweet.
                          >
                          > Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
                          >
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@> wrote:
                          > ...
                          > > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the fly"
                          push the
                          > bar out to
                          > > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux
                          designed
                          > bridled bows,
                          > > no other kite design I know of comes close at the moment
                          > ...
                          > > Steve McCormack
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply to
                          group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
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                          20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply via web post
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                          > 1d.
                          >
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27920;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMn
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                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIwB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "Gideon Low" gideonlow@...
                          > <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject= <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          gideonlow
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gideonlow>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:13 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize
                          that it is
                          > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing
                          holding
                          > anybody
                          > back from having just as much usable depower as any
                          bow/SLE kite.
                          > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few
                          riders
                          > ever
                          > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar
                          option of a
                          > kite.
                          >
                          > The blame is squarely with the group responsible for bar-
                          design
                          > strategy. The decision to use a short-throw bar in order
                          to make PL
                          > kites appear more like blimps was wrong. You don't dummy-
                          down an
                          > amazing kite design with the wrong bar design, you provide
                          the best
                          > tools to take advantage of the kite and then work hard to
                          educate
                          > the
                          > market.
                          >
                          > Then again, judging from the inability to deliver new
                          kites to eager
                          > buyers, perhaps the lost business and widespread
                          misconceptions of
                          > PL
                          > kite capabilities takes some pressure off the failed
                          procedures to
                          > produce and distribution new kites in a timely manner.
                          >
                          > Hopefully things are changing . . .
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > Gideon
                          >
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "Wollo" <weiss@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Aye, PMU's Master speaking up to defend the bow kite on
                          ARCusers.
                          > Sweet.
                          > >
                          > > Stick a long-throw bar to a Venom and be surprised.
                          > >
                          > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kitepower Sydney" <sydney@>
                          wrote:
                          > > ...
                          > > > 2/ At the moment it is limited to bows. The "on the
                          fly" push
                          > the
                          > bar out to
                          > > > release 95% of kite power is unique to the Legainoux
                          designed
                          > bridled bows,
                          > > > no other kite design I know of comes close at the
                          moment
                          > > ...
                          > > > Steve McCormack
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> |
                          Reply to
                          > group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%
                          20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyazA3bzQ1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIwBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyazA3bzQ1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIwBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27920>
                          > &messageNum=27920>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27911;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Zm
                          g4YWt2B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIwB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTE->
                          (7)
                          > 1e.
                          >
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27922;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMm
                          82aGhkB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIyB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "Wollo" weiss@... <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> tungsten222
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/tungsten222>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:52 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes
                          5min (getting
                          > you a beer and opening
                          > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and
                          is as
                          > difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                          > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite
                          on a new
                          > level. Difficult to make a
                          > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried
                          this with
                          > gin tonic yet, but might work
                          > as well.
                          >
                          > cheers, Wollo
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize
                          that it
                          > is
                          > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing
                          holding
                          > anybody
                          > > back from having just as much usable depower as any
                          bow/SLE kite.
                          > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so
                          few riders
                          > ever
                          > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar
                          option of
                          > a
                          > > kite.
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:weiss@...?Subject=Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply to
                          group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%
                          20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydm9mY2VvBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIyBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydm9mY2VvBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIyBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27922>
                          > &messageNum=27922>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27911;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZG
                          05ZWkyB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIyB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTE->
                          (7)
                          > 1f.
                          >
                          > Re: ckite/sle debate
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27924;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMm
                          czdmdoB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTI0B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "kermitclein2000" kermitclein2000@...
                          > <mailto:kermitclein2000@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:kermitclein2000@...?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> kermitclein2000
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/kermitclein2000>
                          >
                          >
                          > Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:21 am (PST)
                          >
                          > Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'
                          >
                          > It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet
                          happy with
                          > my
                          > current short throw.
                          > Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the
                          kite to
                          > catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing
                          just plain
                          > old-skool big-airs and stuff?
                          >
                          > Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just
                          use your
                          > long
                          > throw?
                          >
                          > And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like
                          riding
                          > against
                          > the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?
                          >
                          > breaking my head on this one...
                          >
                          > thanks,
                          > Maarten
                          >
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "Wollo" <weiss@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes
                          5min
                          > (getting you a beer and opening
                          > > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and
                          is as
                          > difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                          > > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits:
                          kite on a
                          > new
                          > level. Difficult to make a
                          > > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried
                          this with
                          > gin tonic yet, but might work
                          > > as well.
                          > >
                          > > cheers, Wollo
                          > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com
                          > <mailto:arcusers%40yahoogroups.com> , "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@>
                          wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people
                          realize that it
                          > is
                          > > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing
                          holding
                          > anybody
                          > > > back from having just as much usable depower as any
                          bow/SLE
                          > kite.
                          > > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so
                          few
                          > riders
                          > ever
                          > > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock
                          bar option
                          > of a
                          > > > kite.
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:kermitclein2000@...?Subject=Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> |
                          > Reply to group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%
                          20debate>
                          > Re%3A%20ckite%2Fsle%20debate> | Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOGo4bnQ1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTI0BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOGo4bnQ1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTI0BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27924>
                          > &messageNum=27924>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27911;_ylc=X3oDMTM3ZD
                          lzNGtnB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTI0B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTE->
                          (7)
                          >
                          > 2a.
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27913;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMz
                          gzcmlvB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTEzB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "jenny raaicd" jennyraaicd@...
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites>
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> jennyraaicd
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/jennyraaicd>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:41 am (PST)
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Yahoo!
                          Answers
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
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                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=Re%3ADataentry%20providing%
                          20website
                          > s> | Reply to group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites>
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> | Reply via web post
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                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWFjOGtyBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
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                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNWFjOGtyBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTEzBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27913>
                          > &messageNum=27913>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27913;_ylc=X3oDMTM3cm
                          NlNTFhB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTEzB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTM->
                          (3)
                          > 2b.
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27914;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOW
                          YyaXM5B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE0B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "jenny raaicd" jennyraaicd@...
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites>
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> jennyraaicd
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/jennyraaicd>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:41 am (PST)
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Yahoo!
                          Answers
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=Re%3ADataentry%20providing%
                          20website
                          > s> | Reply to group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
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                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites>
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> | Reply via web post
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                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJybWx2ZzY3BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
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                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJybWx2ZzY3BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
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                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27914>
                          > &messageNum=27914>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27913;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Zm
                          M2aTY2B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE0B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTM->
                          (3)
                          > 2c.
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27915;_ylc=X3oDMTJyc3
                          VzNzU5B
                          >
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "jenny raaicd" jennyraaicd@...
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites>
                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> jennyraaicd
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/jennyraaicd>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:44 am (PST)
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          > Dataentry providing websites
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9 <http://tinyurl.com/2fuyb9>
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Yahoo!
                          Answers
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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                          > <mailto:jennyraaicd@...?Subject=Re%3ADataentry%20providing%
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                          > Re%3ADataentry%20providing%20websites> | Reply via web post
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                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2dzcDAzBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTE1BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27915>
                          > &messageNum=27915>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27913;_ylc=X3oDMTM3aT
                          N1bXIzB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE1B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTM->
                          (3)
                          >
                          > 3.
                          >
                          > V2 13 rocks!
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27916;_ylc=X3oDMTJycW
                          Q4cG5tB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE2B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "coastalisland4" sinsond@...
                          > <mailto:sinsond@...?Subject= <mailto:sinsond@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> coastalisland4
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/coastalisland4>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 3:09 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > Spent at least 4 hours on the WA coast yesterday in the
                          waves on my
                          > V2-13. Not much more that I could ask for in a kite. 15-20
                          kt with
                          > some lulls and gusts. Got rolled in some white water a few
                          times and
                          > it's just nice to know the kite is going to be there when
                          I surface.
                          > Up and away before the next set comes in. Really gave me
                          the
                          > confidence to be out there solo in the first place. Good
                          turning,
                          > good power & depower, good upwind, good lift, stable...
                          >
                          > Great kite as is. Cant't wait for the next quantum leap.
                          >
                          > Gunnar, if I could put in a request to VO ... I preferred
                          the
                          > graphics on the Bomba, Guerilla and Phantom. It's cool to
                          see a
                          > unique pattern in the sky. A big G was out on the other
                          side in the
                          > bay and that big bull's eye looked great, even from a half
                          a mile
                          > away.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:sinsond@...?Subject=Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> | Reply to
                          group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21>
                          > Re%3AV2%2013%20rocks%21> | Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydjlndnVnBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTE2BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydjlndnVnBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTE2BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27916>
                          > &messageNum=27916>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27916;_ylc=X3oDMTM3bn
                          NzYWd2B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE2B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTY->
                          (1)
                          >
                          > 4a.
                          >
                          > POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27918;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNX
                          A3N2IzB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE4B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "kiteboard2000" kiteboarder@...
                          > <mailto:kiteboarder@...?Subject=
                          > <mailto:kiteboarder@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%
                          2E>
                          > Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%
                          2E>
                          > kiteboard2000 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/kiteboard2000>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 7:54 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > I think only the turning-to-power ratio could use
                          improvement, not
                          > necessarily power per meter. Even heavyweights would be
                          happy if a
                          > 19 simply maintained its low end, but turned like a 13,
                          because then
                          > there could be a 22 (with even more low end) that would
                          turn like a
                          > 16.
                          >
                          > We ride ARCs because they excel in many ways: Gust
                          handling, solo
                          > launch/land, stability (auto-zenith & anti-luff), range,
                          self-
                          > inflation, low maintenance, etc.
                          >
                          > I think many would agree that of all these traits, the
                          only ones
                          > we'd
                          > want to sacrifice to get the improved turning-to-power
                          would be SOME
                          > auto-zenith (auto-pilot would be fine, just not LEI-like
                          auto-DIVE),
                          > & SOME self inflation (inflatable tip struts would be
                          okay). Bridles
                          > could be okay if they didn't interfere with the remainder
                          of the
                          > attributes listed.
                          >
                          > Recent personal experience unfortunately seems to indicate
                          that
                          > while
                          > every other ARC (including the V2) has enough anti-luff
                          for my local
                          > conditions, the Scorpion doesn't, so I do NOT want to
                          sacrifice any
                          > of that.
                          >
                          > If "less direct feedback" means lower bar load that would
                          be fine by
                          > ME, as long as it's not as light as a 2006 Globe Sonic,
                          which had so
                          > little feedback that when a gust hit the kite would yank
                          you before
                          > you knew to sheet out.
                          >
                          > Mel
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:kiteboarder@...?Subject=Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%
                          2C%
                          > 20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E> | Reply to group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%
                          2E>
                          > Re%3APOLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%
                          2E> |
                          > Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2YwNWszBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTE4BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyN2YwNWszBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTE4BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27918>
                          > &messageNum=27918>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27918;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Zn
                          BxMm9iB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTE4B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTg->
                          (3)
                          > 4b.
                          >
                          > Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27921;_ylc=X3oDMTJyb2
                          s3OTMxB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIxB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "Gideon Low" gideonlow@...
                          > <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject= <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > gideonlow <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gideonlow>
                          >
                          >
                          > Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:21 pm (PST)
                          >
                          > I agree. I think what we're all looking for is the faster
                          turning
                          > kites in any given wind range--regardless of the actual
                          size. I took
                          > my S-840 for a spin a couple of weeks ago and was pretty
                          surprised
                          > how
                          > much slower than the V10 it is. The 840 certainly has
                          quite a bit
                          > more power parked, but the V10 easily makes up for it with
                          quicker
                          > turns/faster flying speed.
                          >
                          > Adding one more kite that goes a little lower than the
                          current
                          > maximum
                          > bottom-end for the biggest kites would plug a big hole in
                          the
                          > product
                          > line-up. IMHO, the super light wind kite could be a
                          significantly
                          > different design than the rest (and perhaps should be)
                          rather than
                          > just a larger size. You have to make far less design
                          compromises if
                          > a
                          > low-wind kite doesn't have to be the same basic design as
                          one
                          > intended
                          > for 25 kts of wind. Throw-in bridles, an LE tube, whatever.
                          > Light-wind riding is different anyway.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > Gideon
                          >
                          > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:arcusers%
                          40yahoogroups.com>
                          > , "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think only the turning-to-power ratio could use
                          improvement, not
                          > > necessarily power per meter. Even heavyweights would be
                          happy if a
                          > > 19 simply maintained its low end, but turned like a 13,
                          because
                          > then
                          > > there could be a 22 (with even more low end) that would
                          turn like
                          > a
                          > > 16.
                          > >
                          > > We ride ARCs because they excel in many ways: Gust
                          handling, solo
                          > > launch/land, stability (auto-zenith & anti-luff), range,
                          self-
                          > > inflation, low maintenance, etc.
                          > >
                          > > I think many would agree that of all these traits, the
                          only ones
                          > we'd
                          > > want to sacrifice to get the improved turning-to-power
                          would be
                          > SOME
                          > > auto-zenith (auto-pilot would be fine, just not LEI-like
                          > auto-DIVE),
                          > > & SOME self inflation (inflatable tip struts would be
                          okay).
                          > Bridles
                          > > could be okay if they didn't interfere with the
                          remainder of the
                          > > attributes listed.
                          > >
                          > > Recent personal experience unfortunately seems to
                          indicate that
                          > while
                          > > every other ARC (including the V2) has enough anti-luff
                          for my
                          > local
                          > > conditions, the Scorpion doesn't, so I do NOT want to
                          sacrifice
                          > any
                          > > of that.
                          > >
                          > > If "less direct feedback" means lower bar load that
                          would be fine
                          > by
                          > > ME, as long as it's not as light as a 2006 Globe Sonic,
                          which had
                          > so
                          > > little feedback that when a gust hit the kite would yank
                          you
                          > before
                          > > you knew to sheet out.
                          > >
                          > > Mel
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:gideonlow@...?Subject=Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%
                          2C%2
                          > 0Traig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E> | Reply to group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E> |
                          > Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMzEyc2pxBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIxBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMzEyc2pxBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIxBHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27921>
                          > &messageNum=27921>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27918;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Yn
                          BsOTk1B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIxB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTg->
                          (3)
                          > 4c.
                          >
                          > Re: POLL, Lach is right, Traig nails it, etc.
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27927;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMz
                          VtOTh0B
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTI3B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > djteklife <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>
                          >
                          >
                          > Mon Apr 2, 2007 2:37 am (PST)
                          >
                          > Mel, I¹ve wondered this dozens of times when I read your
                          posts about
                          > the
                          > super crap wind @ your local spot; where you at?
                          >
                          > mykl
                          > --
                          > Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%
                          20Tra
                          > ig%20nails%20it%2C%20etc%2E> | Reply to group
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E>
                          > Re%3A%20POLL%2C%20Lach%20is%20right%2C%20Traig%20nails%20it%2C%
                          20etc%2E> |
                          > Reply via web post
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaHA1NWx1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTI3BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaHA1NWx1BF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTI3BHN
                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply&messageNum=27927>
                          > &messageNum=27927>
                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27918;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Mz
                          EwZ3NrB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTI3B
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc5MTg->
                          (3)
                          >
                          > 5.
                          >
                          > Wind range Venom 10 vs. 8?
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27923;_ylc=X3oDMTJyaG
                          dxMzZkB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
                          I3OTIzB
                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "ichiman1" ichiman1@...
                          > <mailto:ichiman1@...?Subject= <mailto:ichiman1@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F>
                          > Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F> ichiman1
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/ichiman1>
                          >
                          >
                          > Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:15 am (PST)
                          >
                          > I got my hands full waveriding the V10 in 30-33Knots
                          wind... doable
                          > but I get yanked pretty good when the kite flying is not
                          perfect.
                          >
                          > According to the PL site the V8 has 5 knots higher wind
                          range... is
                          > that true? Would it be just as well flying the V10 on 15-
                          20m lines?
                          >
                          > 87Kg rider on mutant.
                          >
                          > Thanks for any advice before I dump a load of cash on a
                          new kite or
                          > snip-snip a good set of lines.....
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:ichiman1@...?Subject=Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%
                          2E%20
                          > 8%3F> | Reply to group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F>
                          > Re%3AWind%20range%20Venom%2010%20vs%2E%208%3F> | Reply via web post
                          >
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                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
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                          lYwNkbX
                          > NnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY-?act=reply
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyYXJpcWlqBF9
                          TAzk3Mz
                          >
                          U5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAzI3OTIzBHN
                          lYwNkbX
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                          > &messageNum=27923>
                          > Messages in this topic
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                          AyazhoB
                          >
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                          I3OTIzB
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                          (1)
                          >
                          > 6.1.
                          >
                          > Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision?
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27925;_ylc=X3oDMTJydD
                          BncmtrB
                          >
                          F9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzU3ODU1NzQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDU5MTk2BG1zZ0lkAz
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTY->
                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F>
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F> djteklife
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>
                          >
                          >
                          > Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:39 am (PST)
                          >
                          > On 3/27/07 9:05 PM, "Dave" <acolytedave@...
                          > <mailto:acolytedave%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > I don't like
                          > > the idea of an inflatable LE, but i have said before i
                          reckon
                          > there is
                          > > scope for an inflatable strut INSTEAD of the spars.
                          >
                          > I am for the inflatable spars/struts. You can make them
                          with a heavy
                          > duty
                          > bladder and fabric combo that you just have to pump up
                          once (really
                          > stiff),
                          > that would be nice and have the added benefit of making
                          the tips not
                          > sink,
                          > like they do now.
                          >
                          > The less lines, the better!
                          >
                          > Auto zenith is a great feature, but I¹d give it up for
                          more power.
                          >
                          > At the risk of getting too complicated, more adjusters
                          would seem
                          > ideal in
                          > order to tweak the kites more, otherwise, we have to keep
                          stitching
                          > and
                          > unstitching to try out different strap mods/settings.
                          >
                          > mykl
                          >
                          > --
                          > "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made." -
                          Governor George
                          > W. Bush
                          > to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
                          > Reply to sender
                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%
                          20vis
                          > ion%3F> | Reply to group <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > <mailto:arcusers@yahoogroups.com?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F>
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F> | Reply via
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                          > Messages in this topic
                          >
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                          UxMzBoB
                          >
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                          > HNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNzU1MDY4NTYEdHBjSWQDMjc2Nzc->
                          (65)
                          > 6.2.
                          >
                          > Re: Have anyone tested ozone vision?
                          >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers/message/27926;_ylc=X3oDMTJybz
                          kyMHFlB
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          > Posted by: "M Silva" teklife@...
                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject= <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F>
                          > Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%20vision%3F> djteklife
                          > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/djteklife>
                          >
                          >
                          > Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:41 am (PST)
                          >
                          > I concur.
                          >
                          > On 3/27/07 9:22 PM, "Greg" <Greg.Walsh@...
                          > <mailto:Greg.Walsh%40bigpond.com> > wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > BTW. If you want to increase the market share for Arcs
                          you need to
                          > > market them better. I am currently flying Cabrinha
                          Switchblade II.
                          > I
                          > > can walk into a shop. Demo any size I want. Buy the kite
                          and walk
                          > out
                          > > the door. Everything works straight out of the bag.
                          > >
                          > > If I want an Arc I need to track down some guy who sells
                          them.
                          > Find
                          > > out he is probably a gumby who can barely stay upwind.
                          Maybe get
                          > to
                          > > try out an older model on the beach. Then camp out on
                          the Arcuser
                          > > group to find out how to make it work.
                          > >
                          > > Meanwhile, I get to watch guys who can't evem waterstart
                          after 3
                          > > years of kiting. Every 3 years or so an Aaron Jarman or
                          Lach might
                          > > come through and show us what these thnigs are capable
                          of.
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Back to top
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                          > <mailto:teklife@...?Subject=Re%3A%20Have%20anyone%20tested%20ozone%
                          20vis
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                        • Gideon Low
                          Wollo, You and I must have very similar riding styles :-). I agree with everything below. Yesterday I was out in nuking winds and waist-shoulder waves on the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 3, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Wollo,

                            You and I must have very similar riding styles :-). I agree with
                            everything below.

                            Yesterday I was out in nuking winds and waist-shoulder waves on the
                            V1-10 (with SFS) and launching airs like never before. Very simple
                            and idiot proof procedure with the long-throw bar . . . get a little
                            board speed, send the kite, launch, and then pull into a full stall.
                            No matter how badly I screwed up, flying at full stall prevented the
                            kite over-flying before my landing. One time I even had to basically
                            abort a "jump-into-the-wave" move due to another kiter and sent the
                            kite from 10 to 2 (instead of 10-12). This could easily cause you to
                            swing under the kite, accelerate sideways at mach 10, or both.
                            Instead, I threw the kite back hard to 12 and immediately pulled to
                            full stall . . . . I got yanked around in the air, but had a nice soft
                            landing with the kite ready to go.

                            The ability to access both maximum depower and full stall at any time
                            allows you to progress your riding style in ways you never
                            imagined--particularly (for me) when surfing waves.

                            I gave my pulley bar another go the other day as well and decided that
                            2X depower is a little too much--I'm converting it back to a simple
                            setup. While it does give you the full sheeting range of the kite
                            with half the distance, I seem to lose the direct feel I like so much.
                            I'm dreaming-up ideas for a 1 1/2X depower setup, but it will
                            probably have to wait until next winter when the days are short and
                            the wind rare.

                            Cheers,

                            Gideon

                            --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > hi Maarten I try to explain what the long throw did for me:
                            >
                            > 1. I find a trim setting for the depower strap for that session
                            (like general wind strength)
                            > and after that don't touch it anymore.
                            >
                            > 2. I fly it without stopper, much prefer it like that.
                            >
                            > 3. the usable throw goes from stall (which is perfect to put your
                            kite wherever you want it
                            > in the window, as far downwind as you like, even as far as a
                            spinnaker) to complete slack
                            > backlines - read max. depower - if I let go of the bar, and
                            anything between.
                            >
                            > 3a. If in a powered move through the window you let go of the bar,
                            you find yourself
                            > sitting right on your ass because the kite has a power switch on/off
                            now. That, together
                            > with the autozenith, is a really nice feature.
                            >
                            > 4. the "sheeting in" to produce a kick of power is taken to a new
                            level, as you can sheet in
                            > to a much higher AoA which results in a boot up the butt if the kite
                            was moving fast
                            > enough. Try this with a jump and you will see.
                            >
                            > 5. There are other interesting uses of stalling the kite: a quick
                            full stall as a sort of
                            > depower (kite sinks down to the ground and allows to hold down
                            pretty big wind), to
                            > control the kite most effectively when it starts doing funny stuff
                            in turbulences, to keep it
                            > from overflying if you bail a jump, to put it wherever you want in
                            the window, to land it
                            > downwind without the risk you take when you grab the backlines, and
                            so on.
                            >
                            > 6. I find that the long throw works especially good with my modded
                            kites, as BSR and later
                            > Lach's mod allow the kite to be used with a lot more backline
                            tension than the factory
                            > ones.
                            >
                            > I am still playing with the possibilities.
                            >
                            > cheers, Wollo
                            >
                            > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "kermitclein2000"
                            <kermitclein2000@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Wollo can you shed light on the 'kite on a new level'
                            > >
                            > > It's very hard to imagine what the gain is, being quiet happy with my
                            > > current short throw.
                            > > Is there only gain if you're kiting waves, depowering the kite to
                            > > catch most of the wave? Or can you also gain when doing just plain
                            > > old-skool big-airs and stuff?
                            > >
                            > > Do you ever touch the depowerstrap then? Or do you just use your long
                            > > throw?
                            > >
                            > > And am I correct that using a stopperball is just like riding against
                            > > the knot, but with a push through safety possibility?
                            > >
                            > > breaking my head on this one...
                            > >
                            > > thanks,
                            > > Maarten
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Wollo" <weiss@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > And the big joke: going from short to long throw takes 5min
                            > > (getting you a beer and opening
                            > > > the can included), costs 3$ (plus 50c for the beer), and is as
                            > > difficult as tying your shoe laces.
                            > > > Change leaders and CL line for longer ones. Benefits: kite on a new
                            > > level. Difficult to make a
                            > > > choice, eh? Maybe you don't fancy beer? I haven't tried this with
                            > > gin tonic yet, but might work
                            > > > as well.
                            > > >
                            > > > cheers, Wollo
                            > > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > No kidding. I still can't believe how few people realize that it
                            > > is
                            > > > > PL bar design, and not PL kites, that's the only thing holding
                            > > anybody
                            > > > > back from having just as much usable depower as any bow/SLE
                            > > kite.
                            > > > > It's a pity--but also a fact that will remain--that so few riders
                            > > ever
                            > > > > venture to try anything that isn't the default stock bar option
                            > > of a
                            > > > > kite.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Gideon Low
                            ... PMU already admitted to being a Flysurfer dealer out of the UK :-) He posts his standard rant to boost sales with reverse psychology. ... will give ...
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 3, 2007
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                              > If you think I have anything to do with that fool PMU that posts on
                              > kiteforum, then that says a lot about you and really nothing about me.

                              PMU already admitted to being a Flysurfer dealer out of the UK :-) He
                              posts his standard rant to boost sales with reverse psychology.

                              > If you think that simply putting a longer depower line on a Venom
                              will give
                              > you the same drop the bar 95% depower "on the fly" that a bridled
                              inflatable
                              > bow has, then you are deluded or simply being misleading, perhaps for
                              > commercial reasons. What about the superior and simple pull one rear
                              leader
                              > relaunch - another feature of that bridled bow kite design?
                              >
                              > A longer depower line will not actually increase the wind range of
                              the kite,
                              > but it will allow you to keep riding the same kite in winds that are not
                              > optimal for you.

                              Not exactly. What the long throw lets you do is access full stall and
                              full depower at any time. This opens-up new possibilities for
                              progression that most people have never thought of. Bow kites are
                              good at this, but for some reason I almost never see people using the
                              benefits of a stalled kite at the beaches I ride around the SF Bay
                              Area. Everyone should always be aware that although PL kites do have
                              roughly the same usable range as a Bow/SLE, they will still loft you
                              in winds where a Bow/SLE will not.

                              >
                              > A long throw bar and a simple means of shortening the rear lines so
                              that you
                              > can maintain a comfortable arm position would be the best way to
                              exploit the
                              > wind range of a Venom, which is bigger than the average 4 lined C
                              kite but
                              > not as big as a bridled bow.

                              My experience is that the usable wind range for Bows and Venoms is the
                              same. Haven't tried a non-Bow SLE.

                              Cheers,

                              Gideon
                            • kiteboard2000
                              ... More details please. You really believe a Bow/SLE won t loft you? Mel
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@...> wrote:
                                > Everyone should always be aware that although PL kites do have
                                > roughly the same usable range as a Bow/SLE, they will still loft
                                > you in winds where a Bow/SLE will not.

                                More details please. You really believe a Bow/SLE won't loft you?


                                Mel
                              • Gideon Low
                                PL kites will still fly and deliver some power even flying completely off of the front lines. At some point this can certainly loft you. A bow kite would
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                  PL kites will still fly and deliver some power even flying completely
                                  off of the front lines. At some point this can certainly loft you. A
                                  bow kite would flutter to the ground with far less pull. If the bow
                                  inverts at such a wind power, though (much more likely with slack
                                  rears), then you're in serious trouble . . .

                                  --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                                  > > Everyone should always be aware that although PL kites do have
                                  > > roughly the same usable range as a Bow/SLE, they will still loft
                                  > > you in winds where a Bow/SLE will not.
                                  >
                                  > More details please. You really believe a Bow/SLE won't loft you?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Mel
                                  >
                                • kiteboard2000
                                  ... Sure a PL will be more likely to loft you compared to an SLE that s on the ground, but what about when the SLE has enough rear line tension to hover at
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                    "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@...> wrote:
                                    > PL kites will still fly...

                                    Sure a PL will be "more" likely to loft you compared to an SLE that's
                                    on the ground, but what about when the SLE has enough rear line tension
                                    to hover at zenith.


                                    Mel
                                  • woodman_k
                                    Twice this winter I was caught on my v2-16 in 30knots+ when riding happily in the 20 range. I popped my front line safety and let the poor kite bang around
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                      Twice this winter I was caught on my v2-16 in 30knots+ when riding
                                      happily in the 20 range. I popped my front line safety and let the
                                      poor kite bang around until I reeled it in. So windy only possible
                                      with a line wrapped around the harness loop. But still very safe and
                                      no surprise. I think we should show our newbies this trick because the
                                      kite pulls too hard to reel it in on your bare or gloved hand. I would
                                      not have been doing so well on any pump kite!


                                      I love the venoms when you are at the last 20% of where you can hold
                                      them down. Because of their super stability you push that. I feel very
                                      safe riding these kites at the absolute top of the power scale as long
                                      as I get it launched and am still alive! Thats another story!

                                      Some friends I put on venoms are doing well very quickly and have had
                                      more or less no kitemares. Some of that is good advice from the
                                      informed and also the arcness of their kites.

                                      It is strange that they are not so popular other places wheras here it
                                      is dominant.

                                      Stan
                                      near Kingston Ont.
                                    • Gideon Low
                                      Mel, I prefer and feel safer on PL kites in basically any conditions. I was commenting on the difference between the two kite designs in a situation where the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                        Mel,

                                        I prefer and feel safer on PL kites in basically any conditions. I
                                        was commenting on the difference between the two kite designs in a
                                        situation where the wind unexpectedly increases far beyond the kite's
                                        reasonable range. A very skilled Bow kite rider can probably pilot
                                        his way back to the beach (though certainly in great peril) in
                                        conditions where a PL rider would have no choice but to pull the
                                        safety release or be teabagged.

                                        Of course, in such conditions, you're way better off on the PL when
                                        you do the right thing and in fact activate the safety.

                                        Cheers,

                                        Gideon

                                        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "kiteboard2000" <kiteboarder@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@> wrote:
                                        > > PL kites will still fly...
                                        >
                                        > Sure a PL will be "more" likely to loft you compared to an SLE that's
                                        > on the ground, but what about when the SLE has enough rear line tension
                                        > to hover at zenith.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mel
                                        >
                                      • kiteboard2000
                                        ... I agree with your 1st & last points*, but I feel SAFER on a Venom when overpowered ( beyond the.. reasonable range ) because they handle SO much better
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 7, 2007
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                                          "Gideon Low" <gideonlow@...> wrote:
                                          > Mel,
                                          > I prefer and feel safer on PL kites...
                                          > I was commenting on the difference... where the wind
                                          > unexpectedly increases far beyond the kite's reasonable range...
                                          > Of course, in such conditions, you're way better off on the PL when
                                          > you do the right thing and in fact activate the safety.

                                          I agree with your 1st & last points*, but I feel SAFER on a Venom when
                                          overpowered ("beyond the.. reasonable range") because they handle SO
                                          much better than an SLE with slack back lines.

                                          * I feel safer flying a PL, & safer when I release to the leash.

                                          The other point I was trying to make is that I think you're just as
                                          likely to get lofted with an SLE at zenith (as with a PL). If a gust
                                          hits fast enough to loft you, you don't have time to sheet out.


                                          Mel
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