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Re: 12m Phantom compared to 15m Guerilla2

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  • byron_kiter
    ... avoid ... high-aspect LEI than a Guerilla, so if youve come from flying high- aspect LEIs then the Phantom would probably be closer to what youre used to,
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
      --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "ben_howes" <ben_howes@y...> wrote:
      > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "byron_kiter" <byron_kiter@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > Thought I'd write out some comparisons between my Phantom12 to G2
      > > 15m. Not really fair I know since the kites are different sizes,
      > but
      > > still may be useful if you are tossing up whether to buy a G2 or
      > wait
      > > for a Phantom.
      > >
      > > Phantom turns MUCH faster than the G15m. I would say its an
      > agressive
      > > flight, I find I need to hold the bar closer to the center to
      avoid
      > > overturning. It's speed is constant through the turns so you can
      > > generate power through working the kite. This gives you better
      > bottom
      > > end.
      >
      > Would you say the Phant would suit a potential rider coming from
      > LEI's more than the Guerilla?


      ------ Hi Ben. I think the Phantom is much closer in performance to a
      high-aspect LEI than a Guerilla, so if youve come from flying high-
      aspect LEIs then the Phantom would probably be closer to what youre
      used to, but if youe experience is with moderate aspect LEIs then the
      Guerilla is closer to those. Certainly the 15m G2 is closer to my old
      15m Wipika Hydro, but has all the advantages of the arcs, ie
      stability, auto-zenith, no pumps, etc.


      > >
      > > Phantom has brilliant depower. Keeping the kite at the edge of
      the
      > > window really doesnt pull you off your feet. It feels steady,
      > > obedient, just hovers there. Which is probably why its so good
      for
      > > land kiting - you can switch it off. In comparison, 15m G2 is a
      bit
      > > grunty, keeps pulling even at the edge of the wind window - makes
      > for
      > > better wave riding, since power is steadier.
      >
      > With better depower on the Phant, it could be possible to cover
      (say)
      > 10 - 25 knots with 2 kites?

      --------- Yes I think so. I have the 12m Phantom and 15m G2. I also
      have my old S-840, but havent used it for a long time. If you
      regularly get ballistic winds (ie over 30knots), maybe you'd want a
      smaller kite also.


      > I think the ability to switch the power off like that could
      > revolutionise wave riding - I find I'd like to surf the wave rather
      > than have the kite pull me off the face.


      --------- Yes I really like the P12 in waves, if you get into trouble
      (big bomb wave looming), you can whip the kite down through the power
      and get a surge of power to take you away from it, or over it. If you
      keep the kite overhead you pretty much have switched off the power so
      can take your power from the wave itself. However Ive never used a
      Bomber or low-aspect kite in waves so not sure what the rave is about
      those kites for waves.


      > Does the Phant jerk you in gusts (like hi aspect LEI)?

      -------- No nothing like it... very snmooth in gusts - a major
      advantage to my mind.


      >
      > >
      > > 15m G2 jumps are long, slow and floaty. Hang-time is longer. In
      > > comparison, Phantom jumps are higher, faster, scarier, you come
      > down
      > > faster, need quicker reflexes. If you dont have the kite in the
      > right
      > > spot when you land, it can work you.
      >
      > So I take it G is easier to jump in general, and perhaps more fun
      for
      > experienced but irregular riders?

      --------Yep easier to jump the G. For me, Phantom gives higher
      spookier jumps, but faster up and faster landings, wheras the 15m G2
      gives me loooong slow floatatious jumps, but not higher.


      >
      > >
      > > Auto-zenith - much the same. Both are predictable, pretty much
      stay
      > > where you leave them, G2 tends to lift up a little more, but
      > neither
      > > dive towards the sea like a LEI.
      >
      > hurrah for that!


      > If you let go the bar and the kite's
      > > already aimed at the sea, thats where it will go, but generally,
      if
      > > theyre aimed higher than horizontal, theyll get end up at the
      edge
      > > and lose power. Neither kite's auto-zenith like the original S-
      arc.
      > >
      > > I like them both, for different reasons. P12 is fast, action-
      > packed,
      > > keeps you fully wired in actually flying the kite. G2 15 is fun,
      > more
      > > predictable, gives you long, floaty jumps with time to
      comtemplate
      > > your navel on the way down. Totally different feeling. Just fly,
      > its
      > > all fun.
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > > Greg
      >
      > Thanks for that Greg, I'm still trying to work out what to do.
      Should
      > be able to try a G2 out soon but wait for the Phantom ...???
      Perhaps
      > a mixed bag would be ideal - say big and medium phantom + small G
      or
      > Bomba.
      > Cheers
      > Ben

      --------- For me I love the speed and agressiveness of the 12m
      Phantom, but dont know if the 15m & 18m Phantoms maintain the
      same characteristics as the 12m - interesting to read the PL post
      from Big Kahuna on that (comparing 18m G2 with 18M Phantom).If I
      were you I'd wait and see if you can try the Phantom. Personally the
      12m Phantom is by far the best kite I've ever tried. For top winds I
      think a lower aspect kite is better so you have less chance of being
      splattered - Have fun!
      Cheers
      Greg
    • byron_kiter
      Hi David, Yeah i know 2 different sizes are going to have different characteristics. However, both kites can be flown on the same day in the same strength wind
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
        Hi David,
        Yeah i know 2 different sizes are going to have different
        characteristics. However, both kites can be flown on the same day in
        the same strength wind (about 10-15knots), so its possible to
        directly compare them on the same day. Anyway, I can only afford 2
        kites - they're a G2 15m and a 12m Phantom prototype. Since the
        Phantom isnt generally available yet I thought it could help to let
        people know my experiences. Its interesting to me to compare them and
        I think others may like to hear such experiences - it does help when
        you are trying to choose what kite(s) to buy.

        From accounts so far, the G2 15m is faster turning than the G1. But,
        I do not think the G2 15m is a fast-turning kite. Its slow and heavy
        to turn compared to the 12mPhantom. Thats OK, it is still fun to fly.
        But I'm thinking maybe I shouldve waited for the 15m Phantom.
        Since the G2 and Phantom are meant to be the high-performance kites
        this year, it will be very interesting to get someones comparison of
        the Phantom and G2 in each of the same sizes (especially the bigger
        sizes).

        Most of us dont get the opportunity to try out the whole range of
        kites. Also theres only one other arc flier in my area, and he's mad,
        so I have to filter out some of his ideas. Anyway, this forum
        is invaluable in getting riders experiences and opinions. So, keep
        the Reports on your kite experiences coming. Its all good!
        Cheers,
        Greg


        --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "purdyd" <purdyd@y...> wrote:
        > >I think we all know the differences we can
        > > expect when going from a big to a small ARC but Greg's post is
        > much
        > > more than this. Accounts of people's experiences should be
        > encouraged
        > > not dismissed as scientifically flawed
        >
        > Well, my experience has been it is risky to extrapolate performance
        > across sizes of kites. My prime example would be comparing a G1 10
        > and G1 15. I think it would be hard to guess the performance of
        > either kite from riding the other and these were supposedly the
        same
        > kite line.
        >
        > Glad to hear from Greg I just find it hard to draw any conclusions
        > about the relative performance of guerilla's and phantoms from the
        > info since it wasn't the same size kite used in the comparison.
        >
        > You have Traig talking about the turning on the Bombas and reports
        > on the Shadows and they all compare relative to the G1 10 and i had
        > the G1 10 (just sold it) and have the G2 15 13 and it seems to me
        > from hearing all of these relative tales (and riding the new
        kites),
        > they are all, gasp, good turning kites and lots of fun!
        >
        > Shadows sound cool, so do the Bomba's. It is great that PL has
        > choice in the lineup this year. Great for Arcs great for
        > kitesurfing.
        >
        > Tight lines!
        >
        > David
      • Mud
        Guys, is this really anything new? The Phantom is a tweaked up F-ARC (reducing the F s stalling tendancy). If you look back in the archives you hear pretty
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
          Guys, is this really anything new?

          The Phantom is a tweaked up F-ARC (reducing the F's stalling
          tendancy). If you look back in the archives you hear pretty much the
          same things about the F's- i.e.- they work best at speed, fabulous
          depower, not a lot of grunt, sky you high into the air, etc.

          Anybody out there who's experienced both the F-ARC and now the new
          Phantom who can compare apples to apples?

          (By the way, I'll be flying two year old F-ARCs this year, F16 & F12)



          --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Big Kahuna Ocean Sports"
          <captpaul1@y...> wrote:
          > I wrote to Pete Lynn and asked him to compare the Phantom 18 to
          the
          > Guerilla II 18, and here's his reply:
          >
          > " The Phantom has less bottom end grunt but is otherwise better
          > suited to light wind flying, less stall prone, good steering, high
          > L/D, etc. Generally speaking the guerilla has more power and will
          do
          > better although a light person on a big board can have a lot of
          fun
          > on a Phantom. If you can keep the apparent wind up, the Phantom
          is
          > good in the light, but if you loose it, it is hard to get back,
          you
          > are usually better with a guerilla. The Phantom has a greater top
          > end and is more suited to land use where you need the better
          handling
          > at lighter loads. "
          >
          > As I read it, the Guerilla II has more bottom end grunt (although
          it
          > may not turn as fast as a Phantom) so would be better for a
          > heavyweight like me, and the Phantom is more maneuverable in
          lighter
          > winds (with less grunt) so would be better for lightweights and
          land
          > boarding.
          >
          > Paul
        • ben_howes
          Thanks for your comments there Greg. Being a lightweight, I ll prob. wait to try a phantom before choosing. 18 and 12 quiver could be sweet and very portable
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
            Thanks for your comments there Greg. Being a lightweight, I'll prob.
            wait to try a phantom before choosing. 18 and 12 quiver could be
            sweet and very portable (no pump, :-)) Only worry is I feel I made a
            mistake with the naish x3 which is just too technical to be fun in
            unstable winds or if you're a bit rusty. Jerks like hell on the
            gusts. Don't want to make the same mistake with the Phantom.

            Cheers
            Ben


            --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "byron_kiter" <byron_kiter@y...>
            wrote:
            > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "ben_howes" <ben_howes@y...>
            wrote:
            > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "byron_kiter"
            <byron_kiter@y...>
            > > wrote:
            > > > Thought I'd write out some comparisons between my Phantom12 to
            G2
            > > > 15m. Not really fair I know since the kites are different
            sizes,
            > > but
            > > > still may be useful if you are tossing up whether to buy a G2
            or
            > > wait
            > > > for a Phantom.
            > > >
            > > > Phantom turns MUCH faster than the G15m. I would say its an
            > > agressive
            > > > flight, I find I need to hold the bar closer to the center to
            > avoid
            > > > overturning. It's speed is constant through the turns so you
            can
            > > > generate power through working the kite. This gives you better
            > > bottom
            > > > end.
            > >
            > > Would you say the Phant would suit a potential rider coming from
            > > LEI's more than the Guerilla?
            >
            >
            > ------ Hi Ben. I think the Phantom is much closer in performance
            to a
            > high-aspect LEI than a Guerilla, so if youve come from flying high-
            > aspect LEIs then the Phantom would probably be closer to what
            youre
            > used to, but if youe experience is with moderate aspect LEIs then
            the
            > Guerilla is closer to those. Certainly the 15m G2 is closer to my
            old
            > 15m Wipika Hydro, but has all the advantages of the arcs, ie
            > stability, auto-zenith, no pumps, etc.
            >
            >
            > > >
            > > > Phantom has brilliant depower. Keeping the kite at the edge of
            > the
            > > > window really doesnt pull you off your feet. It feels steady,
            > > > obedient, just hovers there. Which is probably why its so good
            > for
            > > > land kiting - you can switch it off. In comparison, 15m G2 is
            a
            > bit
            > > > grunty, keeps pulling even at the edge of the wind window -
            makes
            > > for
            > > > better wave riding, since power is steadier.
            > >
            > > With better depower on the Phant, it could be possible to cover
            > (say)
            > > 10 - 25 knots with 2 kites?
            >
            > --------- Yes I think so. I have the 12m Phantom and 15m G2. I
            also
            > have my old S-840, but havent used it for a long time. If you
            > regularly get ballistic winds (ie over 30knots), maybe you'd want
            a
            > smaller kite also.
            >
            >
            > > I think the ability to switch the power off like that could
            > > revolutionise wave riding - I find I'd like to surf the wave
            rather
            > > than have the kite pull me off the face.
            >
            >
            > --------- Yes I really like the P12 in waves, if you get into
            trouble
            > (big bomb wave looming), you can whip the kite down through the
            power
            > and get a surge of power to take you away from it, or over it. If
            you
            > keep the kite overhead you pretty much have switched off the power
            so
            > can take your power from the wave itself. However Ive never used a
            > Bomber or low-aspect kite in waves so not sure what the rave is
            about
            > those kites for waves.
            >
            >
            > > Does the Phant jerk you in gusts (like hi aspect LEI)?
            >
            > -------- No nothing like it... very snmooth in gusts - a major
            > advantage to my mind.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > 15m G2 jumps are long, slow and floaty. Hang-time is longer.
            In
            > > > comparison, Phantom jumps are higher, faster, scarier, you
            come
            > > down
            > > > faster, need quicker reflexes. If you dont have the kite in
            the
            > > right
            > > > spot when you land, it can work you.
            > >
            > > So I take it G is easier to jump in general, and perhaps more
            fun
            > for
            > > experienced but irregular riders?
            >
            > --------Yep easier to jump the G. For me, Phantom gives higher
            > spookier jumps, but faster up and faster landings, wheras the 15m
            G2
            > gives me loooong slow floatatious jumps, but not higher.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Auto-zenith - much the same. Both are predictable, pretty much
            > stay
            > > > where you leave them, G2 tends to lift up a little more, but
            > > neither
            > > > dive towards the sea like a LEI.
            > >
            > > hurrah for that!
            >
            >
            > > If you let go the bar and the kite's
            > > > already aimed at the sea, thats where it will go, but
            generally,
            > if
            > > > theyre aimed higher than horizontal, theyll get end up at the
            > edge
            > > > and lose power. Neither kite's auto-zenith like the original S-
            > arc.
            > > >
            > > > I like them both, for different reasons. P12 is fast, action-
            > > packed,
            > > > keeps you fully wired in actually flying the kite. G2 15 is
            fun,
            > > more
            > > > predictable, gives you long, floaty jumps with time to
            > comtemplate
            > > > your navel on the way down. Totally different feeling. Just
            fly,
            > > its
            > > > all fun.
            > > >
            > > > Cheers
            > > > Greg
            > >
            > > Thanks for that Greg, I'm still trying to work out what to do.
            > Should
            > > be able to try a G2 out soon but wait for the Phantom ...???
            > Perhaps
            > > a mixed bag would be ideal - say big and medium phantom + small
            G
            > or
            > > Bomba.
            > > Cheers
            > > Ben
            >
            > --------- For me I love the speed and agressiveness of the 12m
            > Phantom, but dont know if the 15m & 18m Phantoms maintain the
            > same characteristics as the 12m - interesting to read the PL post
            > from Big Kahuna on that (comparing 18m G2 with 18M Phantom).If I
            > were you I'd wait and see if you can try the Phantom. Personally
            the
            > 12m Phantom is by far the best kite I've ever tried. For top winds
            I
            > think a lower aspect kite is better so you have less chance of
            being
            > splattered - Have fun!
            > Cheers
            > Greg
          • Mel
            ... Very nice logic. Comparing the Phantom s land use chart, to my interactive chart, at under 60kg it seems I d be using the kite on the water in the same
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
              "Big Kahuna Ocean Sports" <captpaul1@...> wrote:

              > As I read it...the Phantom...would be better for lightweights and land
              > boarding.

              Very nice logic. Comparing the Phantom's "land use" chart, to my
              interactive chart, at under 60kg it seems I'd be using the kite on the water
              in the same winds recommended for a 70kg rider on land. It makes perfect
              sense. Several times in the past I've commented on how my test results
              differ from heavier riders due to the fact that I'm using the same kite in
              less wind. I'm very nearly convinced to wait for the Phantom now. It could
              make a good choice for other lightweights, including women.

              AND "purdyd" <purdyd@...> wrote:

              > You have Traig talking about the turning on the Bombas and reports
              > on the Shadows...
              > Shadows sound cool, so do the Bomba's.

              What are "Shadows"? I didn't learn anything using the search feature of the
              message archives. Is "Shadow" what they were going to call the Phantom?
              (but then changed their minds)


              _________________________
              Prevent bans: Leash your kite.

              Mel
            • gamelord
              I have an F-12 and an F-16 that I ride and had my first ride on the Phantom 12 yesterday. Peter Lynn is here and brougt a bunch of Demo s for us to play with.
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
                I have an F-12 and an F-16 that I ride and had my
                first ride on the Phantom 12 yesterday. Peter Lynn is
                here and brougt a bunch of Demo's for us to play with.
                In my opinion the Phantom is actually a slightly
                "toned down" F-ARC, it is a lot more stable and can
                stall without lufting and doesn't seem to have the
                dreaded bowtie problems - launching is a dream as is
                the inflation, no problems at all (*note, all flying
                was done on land only, not water). Steering is fast,
                solid, and very predictable at all times, even in the
                turns. Very little if any loss of power during the
                turns and the kite accelerates after the turn very
                quickly. It has an extreme amount of acceleration -
                this kite really loves speed! When powered you can rip
                the kite hard and take flight like a fighter jet -
                very high but very scary as well - better be ready for
                it or your going to bite it hard. Much more stable
                than the F-ARC and greater amount of depower - giving
                you a wider range of use and excellent top end. The
                kite really has to be powered to get the max
                performance out of it but is workable on the lower end
                of the wind range to get you going...again speed is
                the ticket, get the speed of the kite up and your in
                bliss. The depower allows you to handle a lot of wind
                without getting yanked - great for gusts as you can
                drop the power right out of it. Not as much power as
                the G2 13 on the lower end of the range.

                We were using the Phantoms at the SBBB (spring break
                buggy bash) on land only, no water flying yet, wind
                was 8-28 mph including the gusts, the kite points
                upwind as good as anything else out there. Has
                excellent speed and depower, handles the gusts with
                ease causing them to appear non-existant - quite a bit
                better gust handling than the F-ARC does and even a
                little better than the G-2 ... very smooth predictable
                power with awesome acceleration - lock it in sit back
                and enjoy the rush. I would estimate we were hitting
                speeds up to 50 mph+. We did have one GPS clocked
                speed at 64 MPH on a buggy earlier.

                Going to get some pics today and hope to get them
                uploaded to all of you soon. Perhaps I will get lucky
                and get Peter Lynn himself to model one of them for
                us...if I can get him off of his buggy long enough to
                pose. We have a mountain board event planned for
                saturday and will try to get some great pics for you
                from that one as well if anyone is interested.

                My personal opinion is that the Phantom is an
                excellent kite in the upper range, very responsive,
                very fast, good solid predictable power. The
                Guerilla's have much better grunt in the lower wind
                range, more lift and better hang time. The Phantom is
                an excellent kite for land use and I feel it will have
                its greatest impact in the
                buggy/mountainboard/snowboard market. I feel that the
                Bomba's and Guerilla's would be the better choice for
                the water, espicially if most of your riding is done
                on the lower end of the wind range --- but who knows,
                if you are a speed demon then the Phantom may be the
                ticket.

                We're having an awesome time in 80+ degree weather out
                in the desert this week! Going to go riding! Will keep
                you posted.

                Happy Winds!
                Kent
                www.awindofchange.com
                customerservice@...


                --- Mud <wahlum@...> wrote:
                > Guys, is this really anything new?
                >
                > The Phantom is a tweaked up F-ARC (reducing the F's
                > stalling
                > tendancy). If you look back in the archives you hear
                > pretty much the
                > same things about the F's- i.e.- they work best at
                > speed, fabulous
                > depower, not a lot of grunt, sky you high into the
                > air, etc.
                >
                > Anybody out there who's experienced both the F-ARC
                > and now the new
                > Phantom who can compare apples to apples?
                >
                > (By the way, I'll be flying two year old F-ARCs this
                > year, F16 & F12)
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Big Kahuna Ocean
                > Sports"
                > <captpaul1@y...> wrote:
                > > I wrote to Pete Lynn and asked him to compare the
                > Phantom 18 to
                > the
                > > Guerilla II 18, and here's his reply:
                > >
                > > " The Phantom has less bottom end grunt but is
                > otherwise better
                > > suited to light wind flying, less stall prone,
                > good steering, high
                > > L/D, etc. Generally speaking the guerilla has
                > more power and will
                > do
                > > better although a light person on a big board can
                > have a lot of
                > fun
                > > on a Phantom. If you can keep the apparent wind
                > up, the Phantom
                > is
                > > good in the light, but if you loose it, it is hard
                > to get back,
                > you
                > > are usually better with a guerilla. The Phantom
                > has a greater top
                > > end and is more suited to land use where you need
                > the better
                > handling
                > > at lighter loads. "
                > >
                > > As I read it, the Guerilla II has more bottom end
                > grunt (although
                > it
                > > may not turn as fast as a Phantom) so would be
                > better for a
                > > heavyweight like me, and the Phantom is more
                > maneuverable in
                > lighter
                > > winds (with less grunt) so would be better for
                > lightweights and
                > land
                > > boarding.
                > >
                > > Paul
                >
                >


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              • Mud
                Great report, thanks so much! If you are taking pics, could you take one of the Phantom just layed out flat on the ground?
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
                  Great report, thanks so much!

                  If you are taking pics, could you take one of the Phantom just layed
                  out flat on the ground?

                  --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, gamelord <gamelorde@y...> wrote:
                  > I have an F-12 and an F-16 that I ride and had my
                  > first ride on the Phantom 12 yesterday. Peter Lynn is
                  > here and brougt a bunch of Demo's for us to play with.
                  > In my opinion the Phantom is actually a slightly
                  > "toned down" F-ARC, it is a lot more stable and can
                  > stall without lufting and doesn't seem to have the
                  > dreaded bowtie problems - launching is a dream as is
                  > the inflation, no problems at all (*note, all flying
                  > was done on land only, not water). Steering is fast,
                  > solid, and very predictable at all times, even in the
                  > turns. Very little if any loss of power during the
                  > turns and the kite accelerates after the turn very
                  > quickly. It has an extreme amount of acceleration -
                  > this kite really loves speed! When powered you can rip
                  > the kite hard and take flight like a fighter jet -
                  > very high but very scary as well - better be ready for
                  > it or your going to bite it hard. Much more stable
                  > than the F-ARC and greater amount of depower - giving
                  > you a wider range of use and excellent top end. The
                  > kite really has to be powered to get the max
                  > performance out of it but is workable on the lower end
                  > of the wind range to get you going...again speed is
                  > the ticket, get the speed of the kite up and your in
                  > bliss. The depower allows you to handle a lot of wind
                  > without getting yanked - great for gusts as you can
                  > drop the power right out of it. Not as much power as
                  > the G2 13 on the lower end of the range.
                  >
                  > We were using the Phantoms at the SBBB (spring break
                  > buggy bash) on land only, no water flying yet, wind
                  > was 8-28 mph including the gusts, the kite points
                  > upwind as good as anything else out there. Has
                  > excellent speed and depower, handles the gusts with
                  > ease causing them to appear non-existant - quite a bit
                  > better gust handling than the F-ARC does and even a
                  > little better than the G-2 ... very smooth predictable
                  > power with awesome acceleration - lock it in sit back
                  > and enjoy the rush. I would estimate we were hitting
                  > speeds up to 50 mph+. We did have one GPS clocked
                  > speed at 64 MPH on a buggy earlier.
                  >
                  > Going to get some pics today and hope to get them
                  > uploaded to all of you soon. Perhaps I will get lucky
                  > and get Peter Lynn himself to model one of them for
                  > us...if I can get him off of his buggy long enough to
                  > pose. We have a mountain board event planned for
                  > saturday and will try to get some great pics for you
                  > from that one as well if anyone is interested.
                  >
                  > My personal opinion is that the Phantom is an
                  > excellent kite in the upper range, very responsive,
                  > very fast, good solid predictable power. The
                  > Guerilla's have much better grunt in the lower wind
                  > range, more lift and better hang time. The Phantom is
                  > an excellent kite for land use and I feel it will have
                  > its greatest impact in the
                  > buggy/mountainboard/snowboard market. I feel that the
                  > Bomba's and Guerilla's would be the better choice for
                  > the water, espicially if most of your riding is done
                  > on the lower end of the wind range --- but who knows,
                  > if you are a speed demon then the Phantom may be the
                  > ticket.
                  >
                  > We're having an awesome time in 80+ degree weather out
                  > in the desert this week! Going to go riding! Will keep
                  > you posted.
                  >
                  > Happy Winds!
                  > Kent
                  > www.awindofchange.com
                  > customerservice@a...
                  >
                  >
                  > --- Mud <wahlum@y...> wrote:
                  > > Guys, is this really anything new?
                  > >
                  > > The Phantom is a tweaked up F-ARC (reducing the F's
                  > > stalling
                  > > tendancy). If you look back in the archives you hear
                  > > pretty much the
                  > > same things about the F's- i.e.- they work best at
                  > > speed, fabulous
                  > > depower, not a lot of grunt, sky you high into the
                  > > air, etc.
                  > >
                  > > Anybody out there who's experienced both the F-ARC
                  > > and now the new
                  > > Phantom who can compare apples to apples?
                  > >
                  > > (By the way, I'll be flying two year old F-ARCs this
                  > > year, F16 & F12)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In arcusers@yahoogroups.com, "Big Kahuna Ocean
                  > > Sports"
                  > > <captpaul1@y...> wrote:
                  > > > I wrote to Pete Lynn and asked him to compare the
                  > > Phantom 18 to
                  > > the
                  > > > Guerilla II 18, and here's his reply:
                  > > >
                  > > > " The Phantom has less bottom end grunt but is
                  > > otherwise better
                  > > > suited to light wind flying, less stall prone,
                  > > good steering, high
                  > > > L/D, etc. Generally speaking the guerilla has
                  > > more power and will
                  > > do
                  > > > better although a light person on a big board can
                  > > have a lot of
                  > > fun
                  > > > on a Phantom. If you can keep the apparent wind
                  > > up, the Phantom
                  > > is
                  > > > good in the light, but if you loose it, it is hard
                  > > to get back,
                  > > you
                  > > > are usually better with a guerilla. The Phantom
                  > > has a greater top
                  > > > end and is more suited to land use where you need
                  > > the better
                  > > handling
                  > > > at lighter loads. "
                  > > >
                  > > > As I read it, the Guerilla II has more bottom end
                  > > grunt (although
                  > > it
                  > > > may not turn as fast as a Phantom) so would be
                  > > better for a
                  > > > heavyweight like me, and the Phantom is more
                  > > maneuverable in
                  > > lighter
                  > > > winds (with less grunt) so would be better for
                  > > lightweights and
                  > > land
                  > > > boarding.
                  > > >
                  > > > Paul
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
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                • Mel
                  ... Maybe you can re-word that, because I really don t understand. It seems to me that NO kite would luff when it stalled, because a stalled kite falls back
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
                    "gamelord" <gamelorde@...> wrote:

                    > In my opinion the Phantom is actually a slightly
                    > "toned down" F-ARC, it is a lot more stable...

                    Thanks for the nice report. So far so good, but...:

                    > and can
                    > stall without lufting

                    Maybe you can re-word that, because I really don't understand. It seems to
                    me that NO kite would luff when it stalled, because a stalled kite falls
                    back in the window at a HIGH angle of attack with very little power & when
                    it luffs (virtually impossible with any ARC I've flown) it falls towards the
                    pilot at a very LOW (or even negative) angle of attack.

                    > and doesn't seem to have the
                    > dreaded bowtie problems...

                    Great. Bowtie resistance should go a long way towards water
                    relaunchability.

                    > Much more stable
                    > than the F-ARC...

                    Which should help reduce the NEED to water relaunch.

                    > handles the gusts with
                    > ease causing them to appear non-existant...even a
                    > little better than the G-2 ...

                    SOLD!

                    _________________________
                    Prevent bans: Leash your kite.

                    Mel
                  • gamelord
                    I would like to remind everyone that the test flights on the Phantom was done on land at the dry lake bed here in Nevada. For water you have to have a ton
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 1, 2004
                      I would like to remind everyone that the test flights
                      on the Phantom was done on land at the dry lake bed
                      here in Nevada. For water you have to have a ton more
                      power in the kite to make it useable where on land you
                      only need a little bit of power to get you going. We
                      can actually get going very easily with some pretty
                      good power in as little as 4-8 mph wind with the
                      Phantom 12...this would in no way get me on the water
                      even if I was using a barn door for a
                      board....anyways...

                      On lufting, when flying my F-12 in light wind, when
                      the kite stalled directly downwind it would have a
                      tendency to back up and you would really have to give
                      the kite a major yank on the upper lines to get it
                      going again or the wing tips would fold in causing the
                      kite to luft and if severe enough, bowtie and hit the
                      deck. The Phantom was very predictable when stalled
                      in this position, kept its shape very well and a
                      simple pump on the bar got the kite going again - very
                      nice. You can even get a pretty good backwards flight
                      with it for landing - something I always struggled
                      with on my F - it would usually fold up by the wing
                      tips and then it was done for.

                      As far as water relaunchability - I have not put this
                      kite on the water to try it out, others who are
                      currently using the kite on the water would be better
                      at describing this than I would. I am told that the
                      Phantom is much more difficult to relaunch from the
                      water than the Guerilla or Bomba is - again I do not
                      know this personally. For land, relaunch is simple
                      even if the kite is nose down, just back it off the
                      deck and go.

                      Happy Winds!
                      Kent
                      www.awindofchange.com
                      customerservice@...


                      --- Mel <kiteboarder@...> wrote:
                      > "gamelord" <gamelorde@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > In my opinion the Phantom is actually a slightly
                      > > "toned down" F-ARC, it is a lot more stable...
                      >
                      > Thanks for the nice report. So far so good, but...:
                      >
                      > > and can
                      > > stall without lufting
                      >
                      > Maybe you can re-word that, because I really don't
                      > understand. It seems to
                      > me that NO kite would luff when it stalled, because
                      > a stalled kite falls
                      > back in the window at a HIGH angle of attack with
                      > very little power & when
                      > it luffs (virtually impossible with any ARC I've
                      > flown) it falls towards the
                      > pilot at a very LOW (or even negative) angle of
                      > attack.
                      >
                      > > and doesn't seem to have the
                      > > dreaded bowtie problems...
                      >
                      > Great. Bowtie resistance should go a long way
                      > towards water
                      > relaunchability.
                      >
                      > > Much more stable
                      > > than the F-ARC...
                      >
                      > Which should help reduce the NEED to water relaunch.
                      >
                      > > handles the gusts with
                      > > ease causing them to appear non-existant...even a
                      > > little better than the G-2 ...
                      >
                      > SOLD!
                      >
                      > _________________________
                      > Prevent bans: Leash your kite.
                      >
                      > Mel
                      >
                      >


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