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  • dkeram1
    How long has it been since anything NEW has been constructed at Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin Cloister, the Basilica s or La Loggia going?
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
      How long has it been since anything NEW has been constructed at
      Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin Cloister, the
      Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the leadership doing to further
      the project, or has the project changed, from physical construction to
      philosophical thought? And why does an alumni reunion get more
      attention than anything that has actually happened at Arcosanti in the
      last 6 months?

      And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown and Francis Ford
      Coppola......when like other associations, those too have been for
      naught.

      I guess that Arcosanti is complete.....a small venue for the arts and
      a retirement home for those who have become frugal in action.

      Dan Keram
      Rhinebeck, NY
    • william collier
      Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this? Bill Collier www.usacommunicator.com ... From: dkeram1
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
        Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this?

        Bill Collier
        www.usacommunicator.com

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: dkeram1 <dkeram1@...>
        To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:04:30 PM
        Subject: [arcology] nothing

        How long has it been since anything NEW has been constructed at
        Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin Cloister, the
        Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the leadership doing to further
        the project, or has the project changed, from physical construction to
        philosophical thought? And why does an alumni reunion get more
        attention than anything that has actually happened at Arcosanti in the
        last 6 months?

        And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown and Francis Ford
        Coppola..... .when like other associations, those too have been for
        naught.

        I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small venue for the arts and
        a retirement home for those who have become frugal in action.

        Dan Keram
        Rhinebeck, NY


      • anne tonks
        Hi Dan I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in archives and every time I go there I see progress. And in the 6 months since I have been there the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
          Hi Dan

          I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in
          archives and every time I go there I see progress.

          And in the 6 months since I have been there the last
          time the entrance has improved, the east crescent
          continues to get built.

          BUT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          I think rather than pointing out how slow it is--AND
          IT IS SLOW--we should see what we can do within each
          of our means to add to the project.

          I am personally suggesting that someone should step us
          and organize 999 alumni for Paolo's 90th birthday next
          year and raise $999,999 dollars for the road or the
          new sewer system or what ever WE AS INTERESTED PARTIES
          WANT TO PUT OUR MONEY INTO.

          If Burning Man can get over $8 million dollars a year
          to build a city, village, whatever for a week and take
          it all down--maybe we interested parties can al least
          spend what we would spend going to burning man (at
          least $1000 each the way I see it) and put that into
          building arcosanti!!!

          Or it would take a lot of organization which can't
          just be talk--but we could really do some cleaning and
          painting at Arcosanti as alumni for Paolo's birthday
          next year and really spiff the place up to acknowledge
          the 40 years of effort..

          So, I guess when there is energy there will be
          building.

          Anyone else want to step up???????

          Anne
          --- dkeram1 <dkeram1@...> wrote:

          > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
          > constructed at
          > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
          > Cloister, the
          > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
          > leadership doing to further
          > the project, or has the project changed, from
          > physical construction to
          > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
          > reunion get more
          > attention than anything that has actually happened
          > at Arcosanti in the
          > last 6 months?
          >
          > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
          > and Francis Ford
          > Coppola......when like other associations, those too
          > have been for
          > naught.
          >
          > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.....a small venue
          > for the arts and
          > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
          > in action.
          >
          > Dan Keram
          > Rhinebeck, NY
          >
          >
        • william collier
          This is really good to hear! Bill ... From: anne tonks To: arcology@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:18:01 AM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
            This is really good to hear!

            Bill

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: anne tonks <annetonks@...>
            To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:18:01 AM
            Subject: Re: [arcology] nothing

            Hi Dan

            I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in
            archives and every time I go there I see progress.

            And in the 6 months since I have been there the last
            time the entrance has improved, the east crescent
            continues to get built.

            BUT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

            I think rather than pointing out how slow it is--AND
            IT IS SLOW--we should see what we can do within each
            of our means to add to the project.

            I am personally suggesting that someone should step us
            and organize 999 alumni for Paolo's 90th birthday next
            year and raise $999,999 dollars for the road or the
            new sewer system or what ever WE AS INTERESTED PARTIES
            WANT TO PUT OUR MONEY INTO.

            If Burning Man can get over $8 million dollars a year
            to build a city, village, whatever for a week and take
            it all down--maybe we interested parties can al least
            spend what we would spend going to burning man (at
            least $1000 each the way I see it) and put that into
            building arcosanti!!!

            Or it would take a lot of organization which can't
            just be talk--but we could really do some cleaning and
            painting at Arcosanti as alumni for Paolo's birthday
            next year and really spiff the place up to acknowledge
            the 40 years of effort..

            So, I guess when there is energy there will be
            building.

            Anyone else want to step up???????

            Anne
            --- dkeram1 <dkeram1@yahoo. com> wrote:

            > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
            > constructed at
            > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
            > Cloister, the
            > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
            > leadership doing to further
            > the project, or has the project changed, from
            > physical construction to
            > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
            > reunion get more
            > attention than anything that has actually happened
            > at Arcosanti in the
            > last 6 months?
            >
            > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
            > and Francis Ford
            > Coppola..... .when like other associations, those too
            > have been for
            > naught.
            >
            > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small venue
            > for the arts and
            > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
            > in action.
            >
            > Dan Keram
            > Rhinebeck, NY
            >
            >


          • anne tonks
            Hi Bill If Alumni helped start this why not have alumni help continue this? Scuttlebut has it that bell sales are way down and that money is tight-- There are
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
              Hi Bill

              If Alumni helped start this why not have alumni help
              continue this? Scuttlebut has it that bell sales are
              way down and that money is tight--

              There are three things that it takes for building.

              1. Plans.
              2. People
              3. Money

              And with number three you can of course buy number 1
              and 2.

              So, I say let's all figure out how to help and see if
              we can assist with this stalemate.

              Are there ideas out there that would help ?

              Anne.

              --- william collier <upadaria@...> wrote:

              > Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has
              > come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this?
              >
              > Bill Collier
              > www.usacommunicator.com
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: dkeram1 <dkeram1@...>
              > To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:04:30 PM
              > Subject: [arcology] nothing
              >
              >
              > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
              > constructed at
              > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
              > Cloister, the
              > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
              > leadership doing to further
              > the project, or has the project changed, from
              > physical construction to
              > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
              > reunion get more
              > attention than anything that has actually happened
              > at Arcosanti in the
              > last 6 months?
              >
              > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
              > and Francis Ford
              > Coppola..... .when like other associations, those
              > too have been for
              > naught.
              >
              > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small
              > venue for the arts and
              > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
              > in action.
              >
              > Dan Keram
              > Rhinebeck, NY
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • william collier
              I will put thought to this. Tomorrow I will post, anybody else have ideas? It would be GREAT to see Arcosonti grow and become what it CAN be. The very idea of
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 4, 2008
                I will put thought to this. Tomorrow I will post, anybody else have ideas?

                It would be GREAT to see Arcosonti grow and become what it CAN be. The very idea of a true Arcology could revolutionize life, reduce the "footprint" we leave (and save land), promote community, AND make individuals much more free (less dependent on govts and corps.)

                Bill


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: anne tonks <annetonks@...>
                To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:23:50 AM
                Subject: Re: [arcology] nothing

                Hi Bill

                If Alumni helped start this why not have alumni help
                continue this? Scuttlebut has it that bell sales are
                way down and that money is tight--

                There are three things that it takes for building.

                1. Plans.
                2. People
                3. Money

                And with number three you can of course buy number 1
                and 2.

                So, I say let's all figure out how to help and see if
                we can assist with this stalemate.

                Are there ideas out there that would help ?

                Anne.

                --- william collier <upadaria@yahoo. com> wrote:

                > Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has
                > come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this?
                >
                > Bill Collier
                > www.usacommunicator .com
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: dkeram1 <dkeram1@yahoo. com>
                > To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:04:30 PM
                > Subject: [arcology] nothing
                >
                >
                > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                > constructed at
                > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                > Cloister, the
                > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                > leadership doing to further
                > the project, or has the project changed, from
                > physical construction to
                > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                > reunion get more
                > attention than anything that has actually happened
                > at Arcosanti in the
                > last 6 months?
                >
                > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
                > and Francis Ford
                > Coppola..... .when like other associations, those
                > too have been for
                > naught.
                >
                > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small
                > venue for the arts and
                > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
                > in action.
                >
                > Dan Keram
                > Rhinebeck, NY
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • dougleonardi
                Anne, Dan, et al. Question: Is the goal to finish Arcosanti or to build an actual arcology? (As I recall, Arcosanti is by everyone s admission NOT an arcology
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                  Anne, Dan, et al.

                  Question: Is the goal to finish Arcosanti or to build an actual
                  arcology? (As I recall, Arcosanti is by everyone's admission NOT an
                  arcology but an urban lab in frugality.)

                  If the goal is to see a true arcology built in our lifetime I have a
                  serious and immediately realistic suggestion that I think will help
                  towards that end.

                  Help us finish a very real, proven, and sustainable technology that
                  will make any arcology not only possible but profitable. THEN the
                  general public will pay attention.

                  A few years ago I started a company specifically to develop and bring
                  to market a new building system that is stronger, lighter, safer,
                  easier to install and MUCH greener than conventional building
                  materials. Why? Because not only is the CURRENT building industry in
                  need of all of these qualities (and is willing to pay for them) but I
                  firmly believe that any true megastructure will NEED to be flexible
                  enough to adapt itself to the changing needs of tenants over time.

                  A concrete structure CANNOT change without demolition and substantial
                  effort/energy. Concrete is also one of the biggest contributors of
                  CO2 in the world (8%+ of all emmissions), having an enormous embodied
                  energy and contributing heavily to material waste in landfills after
                  demolition.

                  The system we've developed not only reduces the carbon footprint of a
                  building (during construction and throughout its operational
                  lifecycle) but also allows tenants to change the structure over time,
                  even replacing or upgrading the building as new materials or
                  technologies become available. It gives buildings the flexibility
                  they need to live up to the goal of Arcology, allowing growth, change
                  and even removal without the negative impact of today's building
                  materials.

                  We have lab tested the components and they have met or exceeded
                  commercial strength requirements. We are in the processes of
                  manufacturing sufficient quantities to erect a test building this
                  summer and hope to be in certification testing with Factory Mutual
                  within the calendar year. However, we need your help.

                  I am seriously asking each and every one of you who believe in
                  arcology, and would consider giving money to build a road or a sewer
                  at Arcosanti, to look closely at SafetySpan, Inc. Collectively my
                  partners and I have already spent over $40,000 bringing the system to
                  this point (including legal, material and technical costs) but we
                  still need to get the system through industry certification.

                  This is our first actual round of investment outside of friends and
                  family, so the ROI is still quite high. For information on investing
                  in a solid, promising and arcology-focused company, please go to
                  http://www.safetyspan.com or send me e-mail directly at
                  dougleonardi@....

                  While I have the utmost respect and admiration for Paolo, Arcosanti
                  and the dream they represent (a dream I passionately share and which
                  driven the development of this product!) I strongly feel that the
                  best chance of seeing that dream realized is in the creation of new
                  technologies that make arcology profitable, not just possible. Only
                  then will the people who have the money decide to spend it where it
                  is needed.

                  Doug Leonardi, CTO
                  SafetySpan, Inc.
                  (603) 821-4394
                  www.safetyspan.com



                  --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, anne tonks <annetonks@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dan
                  >
                  > I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in
                  > archives and every time I go there I see progress.
                  >
                  > And in the 6 months since I have been there the last
                  > time the entrance has improved, the east crescent
                  > continues to get built.
                  >
                  > BUT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  >
                  > I think rather than pointing out how slow it is--AND
                  > IT IS SLOW--we should see what we can do within each
                  > of our means to add to the project.
                  >
                  > I am personally suggesting that someone should step us
                  > and organize 999 alumni for Paolo's 90th birthday next
                  > year and raise $999,999 dollars for the road or the
                  > new sewer system or what ever WE AS INTERESTED PARTIES
                  > WANT TO PUT OUR MONEY INTO.
                  >
                  > If Burning Man can get over $8 million dollars a year
                  > to build a city, village, whatever for a week and take
                  > it all down--maybe we interested parties can al least
                  > spend what we would spend going to burning man (at
                  > least $1000 each the way I see it) and put that into
                  > building arcosanti!!!
                  >
                  > Or it would take a lot of organization which can't
                  > just be talk--but we could really do some cleaning and
                  > painting at Arcosanti as alumni for Paolo's birthday
                  > next year and really spiff the place up to acknowledge
                  > the 40 years of effort..
                  >
                  > So, I guess when there is energy there will be
                  > building.
                  >
                  > Anyone else want to step up???????
                  >
                  > Anne
                  > --- dkeram1 <dkeram1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                  > > constructed at
                  > > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                  > > Cloister, the
                  > > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                  > > leadership doing to further
                  > > the project, or has the project changed, from
                  > > physical construction to
                  > > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                  > > reunion get more
                  > > attention than anything that has actually happened
                  > > at Arcosanti in the
                  > > last 6 months?
                  > >
                  > > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
                  > > and Francis Ford
                  > > Coppola......when like other associations, those too
                  > > have been for
                  > > naught.
                  > >
                  > > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.....a small venue
                  > > for the arts and
                  > > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
                  > > in action.
                  > >
                  > > Dan Keram
                  > > Rhinebeck, NY
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • anne tonks
                  Hi Doug WOW I looked at your web site and this product looks amazing. What are your next challenges? Anne ... === message truncated ===
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                    Hi Doug

                    WOW I looked at your web site and this product looks
                    amazing. What are your next challenges?

                    Anne
                    --- dougleonardi <dleonardi@...> wrote:

                    > Anne, Dan, et al.
                    >
                    > Question: Is the goal to finish Arcosanti or to
                    > build an actual
                    > arcology? (As I recall, Arcosanti is by everyone's
                    > admission NOT an
                    > arcology but an urban lab in frugality.)
                    >
                    > If the goal is to see a true arcology built in our
                    > lifetime I have a
                    > serious and immediately realistic suggestion that I
                    > think will help
                    > towards that end.
                    >
                    > Help us finish a very real, proven, and sustainable
                    > technology that
                    > will make any arcology not only possible but
                    > profitable. THEN the
                    > general public will pay attention.
                    >
                    > A few years ago I started a company specifically to
                    > develop and bring
                    > to market a new building system that is stronger,
                    > lighter, safer,
                    > easier to install and MUCH greener than conventional
                    > building
                    > materials. Why? Because not only is the CURRENT
                    > building industry in
                    > need of all of these qualities (and is willing to
                    > pay for them) but I
                    > firmly believe that any true megastructure will NEED
                    > to be flexible
                    > enough to adapt itself to the changing needs of
                    > tenants over time.
                    >
                    > A concrete structure CANNOT change without
                    > demolition and substantial
                    > effort/energy. Concrete is also one of the biggest
                    > contributors of
                    > CO2 in the world (8%+ of all emmissions), having an
                    > enormous embodied
                    > energy and contributing heavily to material waste in
                    > landfills after
                    > demolition.
                    >
                    > The system we've developed not only reduces the
                    > carbon footprint of a
                    > building (during construction and throughout its
                    > operational
                    > lifecycle) but also allows tenants to change the
                    > structure over time,
                    > even replacing or upgrading the building as new
                    > materials or
                    > technologies become available. It gives buildings
                    > the flexibility
                    > they need to live up to the goal of Arcology,
                    > allowing growth, change
                    > and even removal without the negative impact of
                    > today's building
                    > materials.
                    >
                    > We have lab tested the components and they have met
                    > or exceeded
                    > commercial strength requirements. We are in the
                    > processes of
                    > manufacturing sufficient quantities to erect a test
                    > building this
                    > summer and hope to be in certification testing with
                    > Factory Mutual
                    > within the calendar year. However, we need your
                    > help.
                    >
                    > I am seriously asking each and every one of you who
                    > believe in
                    > arcology, and would consider giving money to build a
                    > road or a sewer
                    > at Arcosanti, to look closely at SafetySpan, Inc.
                    > Collectively my
                    > partners and I have already spent over $40,000
                    > bringing the system to
                    > this point (including legal, material and technical
                    > costs) but we
                    > still need to get the system through industry
                    > certification.
                    >
                    > This is our first actual round of investment outside
                    > of friends and
                    > family, so the ROI is still quite high. For
                    > information on investing
                    > in a solid, promising and arcology-focused company,
                    > please go to
                    > http://www.safetyspan.com or send me e-mail directly
                    > at
                    > dougleonardi@....
                    >
                    > While I have the utmost respect and admiration for
                    > Paolo, Arcosanti
                    > and the dream they represent (a dream I passionately
                    > share and which
                    > driven the development of this product!) I strongly
                    > feel that the
                    > best chance of seeing that dream realized is in the
                    > creation of new
                    > technologies that make arcology profitable, not just
                    > possible. Only
                    > then will the people who have the money decide to
                    > spend it where it
                    > is needed.
                    >
                    > Doug Leonardi, CTO
                    > SafetySpan, Inc.
                    > (603) 821-4394
                    > www.safetyspan.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, anne tonks
                    > <annetonks@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Dan
                    > >
                    > > I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in
                    > > archives and every time I go there I see progress.
                    > >
                    > > And in the 6 months since I have been there the
                    > last
                    > > time the entrance has improved, the east crescent
                    > > continues to get built.
                    > >
                    > > BUT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    > >
                    > > I think rather than pointing out how slow it
                    > is--AND
                    > > IT IS SLOW--we should see what we can do within
                    > each
                    > > of our means to add to the project.
                    > >
                    > > I am personally suggesting that someone should
                    > step us
                    > > and organize 999 alumni for Paolo's 90th birthday
                    > next
                    > > year and raise $999,999 dollars for the road or
                    > the
                    > > new sewer system or what ever WE AS INTERESTED
                    > PARTIES
                    > > WANT TO PUT OUR MONEY INTO.
                    > >
                    > > If Burning Man can get over $8 million dollars a
                    > year
                    > > to build a city, village, whatever for a week and
                    > take
                    > > it all down--maybe we interested parties can al
                    > least
                    > > spend what we would spend going to burning man (at
                    > > least $1000 each the way I see it) and put that
                    > into
                    > > building arcosanti!!!
                    > >
                    > > Or it would take a lot of organization which can't
                    > > just be talk--but we could really do some cleaning
                    > and
                    > > painting at Arcosanti as alumni for Paolo's
                    > birthday
                    > > next year and really spiff the place up to
                    > acknowledge
                    > > the 40 years of effort..
                    > >
                    > > So, I guess when there is energy there will be
                    > > building.
                    > >
                    > > Anyone else want to step up???????
                    > >
                    > > Anne
                    > > --- dkeram1 <dkeram1@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                    > > > constructed at
                    > > > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                    > > > Cloister, the
                    > > > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                    > > > leadership doing to further
                    > > > the project, or has the project changed, from
                    > > > physical construction to
                    > > > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                    > > > reunion get more
                    > > > attention than anything that has actually
                    > happened
                    > > > at Arcosanti in the
                    > > > last 6 months?
                    > > >
                    > > > And why does the website still boast of Jerry
                    > Brown
                    > > > and Francis Ford
                    > > > Coppola......when like other associations, those
                    > too
                    > > > have been for
                    > > > naught.
                    > > >
                    > > > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.....a small
                    > venue
                    > > > for the arts and
                    >
                    === message truncated ===
                  • dougleonardi
                    Anne, Our current challenge is certification testing to ASTM specs. That requires a few thousand square feet of the system to be destructively tested by a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                      Anne,

                      Our current challenge is certification testing to ASTM specs. That
                      requires a few thousand square feet of the system to be destructively
                      tested by a third party, which is expensive in both material costs
                      and their fees for the testing.

                      I just can't say enough about this system. As I've posted here
                      before, I honestly think it could revolutionize the way we build
                      buildings. Not only does it make conventional structures safer and
                      more sustainable, it could provide a bridge between today's big box
                      cities to arcologies through a gradual, evolutionary path.

                      We always say that the prohibitive factor is cost, right? I think the
                      key is to provide a way for it to grow gradually, over time, to
                      spread that cost out (and let the private sector pay for it instead
                      of the public!)

                      Spread the word! In a few years SafetySpan will be everywhere and you
                      heard it here first!

                      Doug


                      --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, anne tonks <annetonks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Doug
                      >
                      > WOW I looked at your web site and this product looks
                      > amazing. What are your next challenges?
                      >
                      > Anne
                      > --- dougleonardi <dleonardi@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Anne, Dan, et al.
                      > >
                      > > Question: Is the goal to finish Arcosanti or to
                      > > build an actual
                      > > arcology? (As I recall, Arcosanti is by everyone's
                      > > admission NOT an
                      > > arcology but an urban lab in frugality.)
                      > >
                      > > If the goal is to see a true arcology built in our
                      > > lifetime I have a
                      > > serious and immediately realistic suggestion that I
                      > > think will help
                      > > towards that end.
                      > >
                      > > Help us finish a very real, proven, and sustainable
                      > > technology that
                      > > will make any arcology not only possible but
                      > > profitable. THEN the
                      > > general public will pay attention.
                      > >
                      > > A few years ago I started a company specifically to
                      > > develop and bring
                      > > to market a new building system that is stronger,
                      > > lighter, safer,
                      > > easier to install and MUCH greener than conventional
                      > > building
                      > > materials. Why? Because not only is the CURRENT
                      > > building industry in
                      > > need of all of these qualities (and is willing to
                      > > pay for them) but I
                      > > firmly believe that any true megastructure will NEED
                      > > to be flexible
                      > > enough to adapt itself to the changing needs of
                      > > tenants over time.
                      > >
                      > > A concrete structure CANNOT change without
                      > > demolition and substantial
                      > > effort/energy. Concrete is also one of the biggest
                      > > contributors of
                      > > CO2 in the world (8%+ of all emmissions), having an
                      > > enormous embodied
                      > > energy and contributing heavily to material waste in
                      > > landfills after
                      > > demolition.
                      > >
                      > > The system we've developed not only reduces the
                      > > carbon footprint of a
                      > > building (during construction and throughout its
                      > > operational
                      > > lifecycle) but also allows tenants to change the
                      > > structure over time,
                      > > even replacing or upgrading the building as new
                      > > materials or
                      > > technologies become available. It gives buildings
                      > > the flexibility
                      > > they need to live up to the goal of Arcology,
                      > > allowing growth, change
                      > > and even removal without the negative impact of
                      > > today's building
                      > > materials.
                      > >
                      > > We have lab tested the components and they have met
                      > > or exceeded
                      > > commercial strength requirements. We are in the
                      > > processes of
                      > > manufacturing sufficient quantities to erect a test
                      > > building this
                      > > summer and hope to be in certification testing with
                      > > Factory Mutual
                      > > within the calendar year. However, we need your
                      > > help.
                      > >
                      > > I am seriously asking each and every one of you who
                      > > believe in
                      > > arcology, and would consider giving money to build a
                      > > road or a sewer
                      > > at Arcosanti, to look closely at SafetySpan, Inc.
                      > > Collectively my
                      > > partners and I have already spent over $40,000
                      > > bringing the system to
                      > > this point (including legal, material and technical
                      > > costs) but we
                      > > still need to get the system through industry
                      > > certification.
                      > >
                      > > This is our first actual round of investment outside
                      > > of friends and
                      > > family, so the ROI is still quite high. For
                      > > information on investing
                      > > in a solid, promising and arcology-focused company,
                      > > please go to
                      > > http://www.safetyspan.com or send me e-mail directly
                      > > at
                      > > dougleonardi@...
                      > >
                      > > While I have the utmost respect and admiration for
                      > > Paolo, Arcosanti
                      > > and the dream they represent (a dream I passionately
                      > > share and which
                      > > driven the development of this product!) I strongly
                      > > feel that the
                      > > best chance of seeing that dream realized is in the
                      > > creation of new
                      > > technologies that make arcology profitable, not just
                      > > possible. Only
                      > > then will the people who have the money decide to
                      > > spend it where it
                      > > is needed.
                      > >
                      > > Doug Leonardi, CTO
                      > > SafetySpan, Inc.
                      > > (603) 821-4394
                      > > www.safetyspan.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, anne tonks
                      > > <annetonks@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Dan
                      > > >
                      > > > I just spent 10 days at Arcosanti volunteering in
                      > > > archives and every time I go there I see progress.
                      > > >
                      > > > And in the 6 months since I have been there the
                      > > last
                      > > > time the entrance has improved, the east crescent
                      > > > continues to get built.
                      > > >
                      > > > BUT YOU KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      > > >
                      > > > I think rather than pointing out how slow it
                      > > is--AND
                      > > > IT IS SLOW--we should see what we can do within
                      > > each
                      > > > of our means to add to the project.
                      > > >
                      > > > I am personally suggesting that someone should
                      > > step us
                      > > > and organize 999 alumni for Paolo's 90th birthday
                      > > next
                      > > > year and raise $999,999 dollars for the road or
                      > > the
                      > > > new sewer system or what ever WE AS INTERESTED
                      > > PARTIES
                      > > > WANT TO PUT OUR MONEY INTO.
                      > > >
                      > > > If Burning Man can get over $8 million dollars a
                      > > year
                      > > > to build a city, village, whatever for a week and
                      > > take
                      > > > it all down--maybe we interested parties can al
                      > > least
                      > > > spend what we would spend going to burning man (at
                      > > > least $1000 each the way I see it) and put that
                      > > into
                      > > > building arcosanti!!!
                      > > >
                      > > > Or it would take a lot of organization which can't
                      > > > just be talk--but we could really do some cleaning
                      > > and
                      > > > painting at Arcosanti as alumni for Paolo's
                      > > birthday
                      > > > next year and really spiff the place up to
                      > > acknowledge
                      > > > the 40 years of effort..
                      > > >
                      > > > So, I guess when there is energy there will be
                      > > > building.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyone else want to step up???????
                      > > >
                      > > > Anne
                      > > > --- dkeram1 <dkeram1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                      > > > > constructed at
                      > > > > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                      > > > > Cloister, the
                      > > > > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                      > > > > leadership doing to further
                      > > > > the project, or has the project changed, from
                      > > > > physical construction to
                      > > > > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                      > > > > reunion get more
                      > > > > attention than anything that has actually
                      > > happened
                      > > > > at Arcosanti in the
                      > > > > last 6 months?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > And why does the website still boast of Jerry
                      > > Brown
                      > > > > and Francis Ford
                      > > > > Coppola......when like other associations, those
                      > > too
                      > > > > have been for
                      > > > > naught.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.....a small
                      > > venue
                      > > > > for the arts and
                      > >
                      > === message truncated ===
                      >
                    • Chris ScottHanson
                      4. Ownership
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                        4. Ownership


                        On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:23 PM, anne tonks wrote:

                        Hi Bill

                        If Alumni helped start this why not have alumni help
                        continue this? Scuttlebut has it that bell sales are
                        way down and that money is tight--

                        There are three things that it takes for building.

                        1. Plans.
                        2. People
                        3. Money

                        And with number three you can of course buy number 1
                        and 2.

                        So, I say let's all figure out how to help and see if
                        we can assist with this stalemate.

                        Are there ideas out there that would help ?

                        Anne.

                        --- william collier <upadaria@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        > Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has
                        > come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this?
                        > 
                        > Bill Collier
                        > www.usacommunicator .com
                        > 
                        > 
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: dkeram1 <dkeram1@yahoo. com>
                        > To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:04:30 PM
                        > Subject: [arcology] nothing
                        > 
                        > 
                        > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                        > constructed at 
                        > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                        > Cloister, the 
                        > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                        > leadership doing to further 
                        > the project, or has the project changed, from
                        > physical construction to 
                        > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                        > reunion get more 
                        > attention than anything that has actually happened
                        > at Arcosanti in the 
                        > last 6 months? 
                        > 
                        > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
                        > and Francis Ford 
                        > Coppola..... .when like other associations, those
                        > too have been for 
                        > naught.
                        > 
                        > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small
                        > venue for the arts and 
                        > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
                        > in action.
                        > 
                        > Dan Keram
                        > Rhinebeck, NY
                        > 
                        > 
                        > 
                        > 
                        > 


                      • Chris ScottHanson
                        Dear Alum, When the current owner of Arcosanti is ready to move the project to a private ownership model, I can certainly make Arcosanti happen as a real,
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                          Dear Alum,

                          When the current owner of Arcosanti is ready to move the project to a private ownership model, I can certainly make Arcosanti happen as a real, viable living community of productive, full time residents, who will own their homes as condos.  As many of you know, I have been doing the financing and development of green sustainable pedestrian oriented communities for a living for 20 years now, with a total of $90,000,000 in process today (nearly 180 dwelling units) in Boston and NYC.  

                          Until the move is made to a private ownership model, we are essentially dead in the water.  I will help at Arcosanti in any way I can free of charge after the change - while I work in Boston and NYC full time earning a living supporting my family.   


                          Chris ScottHanson

                             1981 workshop and then staff for a short period


                          Cohousing Resources LLC & Ecodevelopments LLC

                          Ecovillages, Cohousing & Sustainable Communities

                          Development and Consulting for a Sustainable Future 

                             based on the Natural Power of Community


                          PO Box 1288
                          Langley, WA 98260

                          (360) 321-7850 office
                          (206) 260-2800 eFAX
                          (617) 894-7661 cell


                          web site 1:      http://www.CohousingResources.com

                          web site 2:      http://www.EcoDevelopments.com


                          Author of:  The Cohousing Handbook - BUILDING A PLACE FOR COMMUNITY

                          New and revised edition available from Amazon.com


                          Direct from New Society Publishers

                          http://www.newsociety.com/


                          By the box from the authors at

                          http://www.cohousingresources.com/book.asp



                          On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:28 PM, william collier wrote:


                          I will put thought to this. Tomorrow I will post, anybody else have ideas?

                          It would be GREAT to see Arcosonti grow and become what it CAN be. The very idea of a true Arcology could revolutionize life, reduce the "footprint" we leave (and save land), promote community, AND make individuals much more free (less dependent on govts and corps.)

                          Bill


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: anne tonks <annetonks@yahoo. com>
                          To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                          Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2008 1:23:50 AM
                          Subject: Re: [arcology] nothing

                          Hi Bill

                          If Alumni helped start this why not have alumni help
                          continue this? Scuttlebut has it that bell sales are
                          way down and that money is tight--

                          There are three things that it takes for building.

                          1. Plans.
                          2. People
                          3. Money

                          And with number three you can of course buy number 1
                          and 2.

                          So, I say let's all figure out how to help and see if
                          we can assist with this stalemate.

                          Are there ideas out there that would help ?

                          Anne.

                          --- william collier <upadaria@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          > Arcosonti is am amazing idea whose time, IMHO, has
                          > come, but it seems to be glacially: WHY is this?
                          > 
                          > Bill Collier
                          > www.usacommunicator .com
                          > 
                          > 
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: dkeram1 <dkeram1@yahoo. com>
                          > To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:04:30 PM
                          > Subject: [arcology] nothing
                          > 
                          > 
                          > How long has it been since anything NEW has been
                          > constructed at 
                          > Arcosanti? Where are the plans for the Chardin
                          > Cloister, the 
                          > Basilica's or La Loggia going? What is the
                          > leadership doing to further 
                          > the project, or has the project changed, from
                          > physical construction to 
                          > philosophical thought? And why does an alumni
                          > reunion get more 
                          > attention than anything that has actually happened
                          > at Arcosanti in the 
                          > last 6 months? 
                          > 
                          > And why does the website still boast of Jerry Brown
                          > and Francis Ford 
                          > Coppola..... .when like other associations, those
                          > too have been for 
                          > naught.
                          > 
                          > I guess that Arcosanti is complete.... .a small
                          > venue for the arts and 
                          > a retirement home for those who have become frugal
                          > in action.
                          > 
                          > Dan Keram
                          > Rhinebeck, NY
                          > 
                          > 
                          > 
                          > 
                          > 


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                        • Franz Nahrada
                          ... I feel the same way, but one has to admit that private ownership is not the complete solution. There must be a more intelligent social contract than the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 5, 2008
                            arcology@yahoogroups.com writes:
                            >Dear Alum,
                            >
                            >
                            >When the current owner of Arcosanti is ready to move the project to a
                            >private ownership model, I can certainly make Arcosanti happen as a real,
                            >viable living community of productive, full time residents, who will own
                            >their homes as condos. As many of you know, I have been doing the
                            >financing and development of green sustainable pedestrian oriented
                            >communities for a living for 20 years now, with a total of $90,000,000 in
                            >process today (nearly 180 dwelling units) in Boston and NYC.
                            >
                            >
                            >Until the move is made to a private ownership model, we are essentially
                            >dead in the water. I will help at Arcosanti in any way I can free of
                            >charge after the change - while I work in Boston and NYC full time
                            >earning a living supporting my family.
                            >

                            I feel the same way, but one has to admit that private ownership is not
                            the complete solution. There must be a more intelligent social contract
                            than the one that makes residential developments like Sun City a hell and
                            enables homeowners association to exert mental and behavioural control.
                            Paolo has desired an "urban effect" to happen, and I think what he had in
                            mind is rather what you experience in Noe Valley or some quarters in
                            Boston than in the mental monocultures of Southern California.

                            Urban effect means public life, and public life is not given granted by
                            porivate ownership. There has to be a "Theme" for the instrument to bring
                            about some good music.

                            Franz Nahrada
                            Laboratory for Global Villages
                            Vienna - Austria
                          • Dan Keram
                            Anne,   could you please respond to some of the salient points that Charles Provine pointed out?  And likewise respond to my own point that
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 6, 2008

                              Anne,

                                could you please respond to some of the salient points that Charles Provine pointed out?

                               And likewise respond to my own point that associations with other visionaries are for naught. One more question: anyone care to consider why it has been years since any of the key players have even responded briefly, let alone participated actively, on either of the two Yahoo Groups?

                               

                              Anne, I would certainly be willing to help out at Arcosanti, with either 'time or talent'; I am concerned however, that the present hierarchy is indifferent at best, and scornful (or worse)

                              of any endeavors made on its behalf which have not first received blessing from the Board.If Mr. Provine is correct in his implication that financial checks and balances are not in place it is especially troubling. Comingling of funds is never an advisable thing to do. Scrutiny by certain public agencies tends to be inevitable.

                               

                              Again, Anne, your opinion and thoughts.

                               

                              Dan Keram


                            • George Kosmides
                              I also will have some thoughts on this important dialog. Just to be very, very clear: the people working hard in our spare time on alumni work - Anne, myself,
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 7, 2008

                                I also will have some thoughts on this important dialog. Just to be very, very clear: the people working hard in our spare time on alumni work – Anne, myself, some others helping to finalize the first phase of our interactive and (hopefully) useful alumni website – are quite, quite aware of a number of these issues. We have lived and worked at Arcosanti for decades. We have spent a lot of time working on issues of accountability, professionalism and openness for the alumni group. We will be presenting some of our work to the entire group. The alumni group is a separate group – our own charter and our own bank accounts, etc. Our goals include building an organization to effectively harness the tremendous (stunning) energy and insights and goodwill of the 6000++ of us to promote arcology in general and Arcosanti in particular. Six thousand people have about 6000 to the 10th power views and impressions. All of our collective concerns were spawned and continue to thrive based on a deep concern for the environment and humanity’s place within it. Paolo has done more than his part – synthesized architecture and ecology starting in the mid-50’s, invented and started to formalize one of the first approaches to spirit-theology and ecology that in some ways preserves and moves beyond Teilhard/Bergson/Huxley/etc, and then started a working/living early full-scale model. It stands as a challenge/responsibility to us to figure a way to take this new space he’s cracked open and move farther on. Or not.

                                 

                                For now, it would be a big help if anyone wants to help with website stuff – graphics, etc. Soon there will be a number of other things that need to be done.

                                 

                                Also, this group is for general arcology discussion and a lot of this discussion should be on the Arcosanti alum Yahoo group.

                                 

                                I’ll write more a little later. (I am in Greece now taking my mother to see her relatives. Yesterday we were at Mistras, the old, intact Byzantine citadel city that rises high, high on the side of the mountains outside of Sparta. It is really stunning and as I walked up 500 meters through the ruins of homes, churches, Byzantine monasteries, I imagined it as a full arcology. Very cool. Very good constant cardio workout).

                                 

                                -George

                                 

                                From: arcology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Keram
                                Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:50 PM
                                To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [arcology] Re: nothing - UNTIL THE CHANGE TO PRIVATE HOME OWNERSHIP

                                 

                                Anne,

                                  could you please respond to some of the salient points that Charles Provine pointed out?

                                 And likewise respond to my own point that associations with other visionaries are for naught. One more question: anyone care to consider why it has been years since any of the key players have even responded briefly, let alone participated actively, on either of the two Yahoo Groups?

                                 

                                Anne, I would certainly be willing to help out at Arcosanti, with either 'time or talent'; I am concerned however, that the present hierarchy is indifferent at best, and scornful (or worse)

                                of any endeavors made on its behalf which have not first received blessing from the Board.If Mr. Provine is correct in his implication that financial checks and balances are not in place it is especially troubling. Comingling of funds is never an advisable thing to do. Scrutiny by certain public agencies tends to be inevitable.

                                 

                                Again, Anne, your opinion and thoughts.

                                 

                                Dan Keram

                                 

                              • Louis Dallara
                                Please, no slander or you get moderated. Constructive criticism only. Lou Dallara Moderator
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 7, 2008
                                  Please, no slander or you get moderated.

                                  Constructive criticism only.

                                  Lou Dallara
                                  Moderator
                                • anne tonks
                                  This last series of comments and the passionate debate about arcdology and arcosanti is vibrant and alive and has great prospects. I am interested in turning
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 8, 2008
                                    This last series of comments and the passionate debate
                                    about arcdology and arcosanti is vibrant and alive and
                                    has great prospects.

                                    I am interested in turning this energy into action.

                                    So, if anyone wants to have a 50 minute teleconference
                                    to discuss this where we can hear each other in real
                                    time please join me at

                                    2:3o PM Pacific Coast Time on Sunday June 14.

                                    The topic will be

                                    1. The thing I most want to see accomplished at
                                    Arcosanti within

                                    A. the next year.

                                    B. the next decade.

                                    Figure out how to say this in 3 minutes or less.

                                    2. What I am willing to contribute to make that
                                    happen. (we won't get to this on the 14th) but it is
                                    the only thing that makes sense to "fix" our concerns.

                                    If you are interested in this discussion, send me your
                                    phone number and I will initiate the call.

                                    I look forward to your ideas.

                                    Anne

                                    PS: I agree with all the frustration I hear in your
                                    comments. I experience them as well. So,if it's
                                    worth being frustrated over, I believe it's worth
                                    working on.

                                    PPS: I also believe that without the efforts of
                                    everyone who has managed and overseen Arcosanti and
                                    the Cosanti Foundation over the last 40 years we would
                                    only be looking back with nostalgia at the great
                                    promise and potential here.

                                    What has been done is a "flat out" miracle. Yes, it's
                                    had fits and starts and management might have been
                                    better at times.

                                    Some of you may be frowning and shaking your heads.
                                    But my personal history brings me to this conclusion.

                                    I have been a manager of some rather significant
                                    profit making projects in the past and I like to think
                                    I was pretty good at it--BUT--I always found my
                                    interest flagging after the rush of start up was over.
                                    Going on day after day with part time help and some
                                    times good assistance and some times not so good
                                    assistance takes a persistence, a tenancity, a
                                    dedication, an eye on the "ultimate prize" that I
                                    suspect would have greatly challenged anyone reading
                                    this far.

                                    Another thing to remember is that the 20 to 35 years
                                    of effort put in by the management of Arcosanti is not
                                    leading to stock options, "big buck" or any of the
                                    traditional trappings that Americans think equates to
                                    success. The efforts of those leading the efforts at
                                    Arcosanti are motivated by ideas and ideals and my hat
                                    is off to them for that.

                                    So, with all it's "warts" I am grateful that when I
                                    showed up after 35 years there was something quite
                                    wonderful to show up to--so there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

                                    --- George Kosmides <gkosmides@...> wrote:

                                    > I also will have some thoughts on this important
                                    > dialog. Just to be very,
                                    > very clear: the people working hard in our spare
                                    > time on alumni work - Anne,
                                    > myself, some others helping to finalize the first
                                    > phase of our interactive
                                    > and (hopefully) useful alumni website - are quite,
                                    > quite aware of a number
                                    > of these issues. We have lived and worked at
                                    > Arcosanti for decades. We have
                                    > spent a lot of time working on issues of
                                    > accountability, professionalism and
                                    > openness for the alumni group. We will be presenting
                                    > some of our work to the
                                    > entire group. The alumni group is a separate group -
                                    > our own charter and our
                                    > own bank accounts, etc. Our goals include building
                                    > an organization to
                                    > effectively harness the tremendous (stunning) energy
                                    > and insights and
                                    > goodwill of the 6000++ of us to promote arcology in
                                    > general and Arcosanti in
                                    > particular. Six thousand people have about 6000 to
                                    > the 10th power views and
                                    > impressions. All of our collective concerns were
                                    > spawned and continue to
                                    > thrive based on a deep concern for the environment
                                    > and humanity's place
                                    > within it. Paolo has done more than his part -
                                    > synthesized architecture and
                                    > ecology starting in the mid-50's, invented and
                                    > started to formalize one of
                                    > the first approaches to spirit-theology and ecology
                                    > that in some ways
                                    > preserves and moves beyond
                                    > Teilhard/Bergson/Huxley/etc, and then started a
                                    > working/living early full-scale model. It stands as
                                    > a
                                    > challenge/responsibility to us to figure a way to
                                    > take this new space he's
                                    > cracked open and move farther on. Or not.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For now, it would be a big help if anyone wants to
                                    > help with website stuff -
                                    > graphics, etc. Soon there will be a number of other
                                    > things that need to be
                                    > done.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Also, this group is for general arcology discussion
                                    > and a lot of this
                                    > discussion should be on the Arcosanti alum Yahoo
                                    > group.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'll write more a little later. (I am in Greece now
                                    > taking my mother to see
                                    > her relatives. Yesterday we were at Mistras, the
                                    > old, intact Byzantine
                                    > citadel city that rises high, high on the side of
                                    > the mountains outside of
                                    > Sparta. It is really stunning and as I walked up 500
                                    > meters through the
                                    > ruins of homes, churches, Byzantine monasteries, I
                                    > imagined it as a full
                                    > arcology. Very cool. Very good constant cardio
                                    > workout).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -George
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    > Of Dan Keram
                                    > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 8:50 PM
                                    > To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [arcology] Re: nothing - UNTIL THE CHANGE
                                    > TO PRIVATE HOME OWNERSHIP
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Anne,
                                    >
                                    > could you please respond to some of the salient
                                    > points that Charles
                                    > Provine pointed out?
                                    >
                                    > And likewise respond to my own point that
                                    > associations with other
                                    > visionaries are for naught. One more question:
                                    > anyone care to consider why
                                    > it has been years since any of the key players have
                                    > even responded briefly,
                                    > let alone participated actively, on either of the
                                    > two Yahoo Groups?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Anne, I would certainly be willing to help out at
                                    > Arcosanti, with either
                                    > 'time or talent'; I am concerned however, that the
                                    > present hierarchy is
                                    > indifferent at best, and scornful (or worse)
                                    >
                                    > of any endeavors made on its behalf which have not
                                    > first received blessing
                                    > from the Board.If Mr. Provine is correct in his
                                    > implication that financial
                                    > checks and balances are not in place it is
                                    > especially troubling. Comingling
                                    > of funds is never an advisable thing to do. Scrutiny
                                    > by certain public
                                    > agencies tends to be inevitable.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Again, Anne, your opinion and thoughts.
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    > Dan Keram
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                                  • rhkratzse@aol.com
                                    I m coming into this a bit late because I just got back from vacation. I just want to mention that as I drove through Seattle and Portland neighborhoods
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 14, 2008
                                      I'm coming into this a bit late because I just got back from vacation.  I just want to mention that as I drove through Seattle and Portland neighborhoods recently I got a very different "feeling" about their friendliness, neighborliness, sociability, etc., etc., than I ever get from similar socioeconomic neighborhoods in either the East Bay or in San Francisco proper, even in Noe Valley (a "nice" neighborhood known in the area as a great, although expensive, place to live, for those who may not be familiar with it). 

                                      I'm just seconding Franz's comments that the social infrastructure is likely as important as the physical infrastructure. 

                                      If I understand correctly Chris works with his clients for a long time to get them to the place where they can actually organize, design, and construct cohousing.  And that's just for relatively small groupings.  Arcosanti has sort of a similar process (okay, I'm stretching here) wherein people self-select if they wish to stay on longer than a workshop. 

                                      I keep thinking of the only "arcologies" I know of and have experienced -- Navy aircraft carriers and battleships.  5,000+ people living together for long periods of time in a semi-self-supporting structure.  Disregarding the incidental factors -- you know, nuclear weapons, death and destruction, that sort of thing -- for a moment, it's interesting to think about them as semi-arcologies and wonder if they provide any guidance at all for us. 

                                      My brother spent a career on aircraft carriers and he mentioned that some of them have "neighborhoods," although they might more accurately be called "ghettoes," that raise other social issues (to say the least). 

                                      I've often also thought about the fact that the really large "arcologies" that I'm familiar with -- think Manhattan -- have some negative factors (e.g., murders), as well as some positive factors (e.g., more walkable, but avoid Central park at night), inherent in them.  I can't quite make the mental leap from cohousing to 500,000-person arcologies such as Paolo proposes.  Hmmmm.

                                      Ralph
                                      '75

                                      In a message dated 6/5/08 10:57:47 PM, f.nahrada@... writes:
                                      arcology@yahoogrouparcol writes:
                                      >Dear Alum,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >When the current owner of Arcosanti is ready to move the project to a
                                      >private ownership model, I can certainly make Arcosanti happen as a real,
                                      >viable living community of productive, full time residents, who will own
                                      >their homes as condos. As many of you know, I have been doing the
                                      >financing and development of green sustainable pedestrian oriented
                                      >communities for a living for 20 years now, with a total of $90,000,000 in
                                      >process today (nearly 180 dwelling units) in Boston and NYC.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Until the move is made to a private ownership model, we are essentially
                                      >dead in the water. I will help at Arcosanti in any way I can free of
                                      >charge after the change - while I work in Boston and NYC full time
                                      >earning a living supporting my family.
                                      >

                                      I feel the same way, but one has to admit that private ownership is not
                                      the complete solution. There must be a more intelligent social contract
                                      than the one that makes residential developments like Sun City a hell and
                                      enables homeowners association to exert mental and behavioural control.
                                      Paolo has desired an "urban effect" to happen, and I think what he had in
                                      mind is rather what you experience in Noe Valley or some quarters in
                                      Boston than in the mental monocultures of Southern California.

                                      Urban effect means public life, and public life is not given granted by
                                      porivate ownership. There has to be a "Theme" for the instrument to bring
                                      about some good music.

                                      Franz Nahrada
                                      Laboratory for Global Villages
                                      Vienna - Austria



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