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Re: [arcology] The Vertical Farm

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  • yggdrasil@comcast.net
    Oh, I certainly agree - it was just that the building seemed very large and the number of people it fed seemed - not very small, just ho-hum. I m thinking
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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      Oh, I certainly agree - it was just that the building seemed very large and the number of people it fed seemed - not very small, just ho-hum.  I'm thinking twice that many people would be a sweet spot to be.
       
      So, my thought was that food would have to be soooo expensive to cover the cost of the property and property taxes that we would be living very expensive lifestyles already for this to become practical.
       
      Of course, this could be overridden (the cost of the property anyway) if state governements excersized their right to take land as necessary for the states use and betterment of the people.  And then on top of that - they might have to not assess property taxes on these buildings (if commercially owned) so that they can make a profit.
       
      Alex Flynn
       
      -------------- Original message --------------
      From: Douglas Leonardi <dleonardi@...>

      That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.
       
      Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.
       
      Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.
       
      Doug

      yggdrasil@comcast. net wrote:
      There was a really good show on this - I think on science channel not too long ago.  I was very impressed with the concept, but a little disappointed in the number of people that would be supported per structure - something on the order of 75,000 people.
       
      Still, it might have an impact on food prices (if you have enough of them), fuel consumption in the area of food transportation, quality of life - people could eat better and healthier from these things and overall energy costs per 1000 of people.
       
      Alex Flynn
       
      ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
      From: "theghostphaedrus" <morgan.lawless@ gmail.com>
      I found this through the BBC News website. It's a very indepth look at
      some of the design and technology that would go into creating a farm
      that could exist within an urban setting. Check it out if you have a
      few minutes.

      http://www.vertical farm.com/ index.php

       

    • yggdrasil@comcast.net
      Well, it might be mental masturbation. But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it. No doubt though, there are detractions
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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        Well, it might be mental masturbation.  But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it.
         
        No doubt though, there are detractions as I mentioned earlier - to this idea.  One point I missed; however, if to make this work you needed to give the land to entities that would build these things - and - forgive them property taxes - there would be two major outcomes to it.
         
        1) Property taxes would go up for the people still living there
        2) Property values (because of the decrease in supply) would go up.
         
        Still, however, if you position such buildings outside the cities there would be a significant savings in the transportation of food.  No doubt, as you mentioned - food transportation is cheap.  However, if you could do something like this on a massive scale (not saying that any one is, but if you could) then you could reduce by large amounts the fuel consumed for us to eat.
         
        I don't think I have a problem with lunar colonies, space station colonies or other attempts to move the human domain off Earth.  For too long humanity has grown stagnant and basically frontierless.  But only if there is a devotion a commitment - to doing it and making it a long term proposition.
         
        So far, our space efforts have been feeble and short lived.  Such efforts, would be government spending which has a multiplier effect and would improve our economy.  This is why states love military bases even as the federal government attempts to reduce spending by closing bases.  Often a base closure will cause the collapse of the local economy.
         
        Efforts such as the war in Iraq; however, do not have a multiplier.  This is because much of the money is not spent in the United States.
         
        So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony, etc.  This also has an effect that people realize that education equals monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less educated population.
         
        All that said, most of the plans I've seen for lunar colonies, lunar vacation spots, haven't been very good and this is probably why they haven't been implemented.  I have a very positive attitude toward humanity.  I think there isn't a question of if we could do it - either verticle farming or lunar projects or arcologies or whatever.  But at the moment we don't seem to be putting enough thought in to them and motivation in to them to make them realities.
         
        my .05 cents - correcting for inflation....  hmmm no when did that 'my .02 cents' idea come out (or a penny for your thoughts)?  It is probably my $25....
         
        Alex Flynn
         
        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: rhkratzse@...

        I'm sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk "mental masturbation" -- a complete waste of time.   I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to mention a few thoughts.  Transportation is so "cheap" that farmers in China are being outpriced by corn shipped to China from Kansas; even with the US's infinitely higher wages it's cheaper than locally grown corn.

        But a "high-rise farm" strikes me as a completely absurd proposition.  Fun to consider in a comic book vein, but ridiculously impractical and uneconomic.  There are millions of acres of unused land in the US alone.  If it's worthwhile to build a concrete structure and put tillable land on top of it, then it's feasible to improve barren land into tillable condition.

        All this talk about "pie-in-the- sky" schemes that will *never* come to fruition is a waste of bandwidth.  Like moon colonies -- fine for research, maybe, but never practical.  Why spend, oh, $1 billion a person to build a habitat on the moon when we have thousands of homeless on our streets, and thousands of people starving, thousands of children slaving in diamond mines, thousands of children dying of malnutrition, etc.

        Talk is cheap, and it's often fun, but heaven help us if we actually ever start spending money on such schemes.  The absurd waste of money in Iraq is just one example of such misguided thinking.

        My $0.02 worth, as they say.

        Ralph

        In a message dated 6/27/07 8:32:42 AM, dleonardi@safetyspa n.com writes:

        That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.

        Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.

        Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.

        Doug









        Ralph
        Ralph Hueston Kratz

        Rhkratzse@aol. com

        510-236-6668
        Fax 510-215-2430

        724 McLaughlin Street
        Richmond CA 94805-1402 USA



        ************ ********* ********* ********
        See what's free at http://www.aol. com.

      • rhkratzse@aol.com
        Alex, Thank you for your thoughts. It s nice to have a reasoned conversation about issues that we obviously disagree on, rather than the more-common
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 4 12:06 AM
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          Alex,

          Thank you for your thoughts.  It's nice to have a reasoned conversation about issues that we obviously disagree on, rather than the more-common SHOUTING!  :)

          Ralph

          In a message dated 7/3/07 8:11:27 PM, yggdrasil@... writes:
          Well, it might be mental masturbation.  But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it.
           
          No doubt though, there are detractions as I mentioned earlier - to this idea.  One point I missed; however, if to make this work you needed to give the land to entities that would build these things - and - forgive them property taxes - there would be two major outcomes to it.
           
          1) Property taxes would go up for the people still living there
          2) Property values (because of the decrease in supply) would go up.
           
          Still, however, if you position such buildings outside the cities there would be a significant savings in the transportation of food.  No doubt, as you mentioned - food transportation is cheap.  However, if you could do something like this on a massive scale (not saying that any one is, but if you could) then you could reduce by large amounts the fuel consumed for us to eat.
           
          I don't think I have a problem with lunar colonies, space station colonies or other attempts to move the human domain off Earth.  For too long humanity has grown stagnant and basically frontierless.  But only if there is a devotion a commitment - to doing it and making it a long term proposition.
           
          So far, our space efforts have been feeble and short lived.  Such efforts, would be government spending which has a multiplier effect and would improve our economy.  This is why states love military bases even as the federal government attempts to reduce spending by closing bases.  Often a base closure will cause the collapse of the local economy.
           
          Efforts such as the war in Iraq; however, do not have a multiplier.  This is because much of the money is not spent in the United States.
           
          So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony, etc.  This also has an effect that people realize that education equals monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less educated population.
           
          All that said, most of the plans I've seen for lunar colonies, lunar vacation spots, haven't been very good and this is probably why they haven't been implemented.  I have a very positive attitude toward humanity.  I think there isn't a question of if we could do it - either verticle farming or lunar projects or arcologies or whatever.  But at the moment we don't seem to be putting enough thought in to them and motivation in to them to make them realities.
           
          my .05 cents - correcting for inflation...my .05 cents - correcting for inflation...<wbr>.  hmmm no when did that 'my .02 cents' idea come out (or a penny
           
          Alex Flynn
           

          ------------------------<wbr>-- Original mes---
          From: rhkratzse@...

          I'm sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk "mental masturbation" -- a complete waste of time.   I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to mention a few thoughts.  Transportation is so "cheap" that farmers in China are being outpriced by corn shipped to China from Kansas; even with the US's infinitely higher wages it's cheaper than locally grown corn.

          But a "high-rise farm" strikes me as a completely absurd proposition.  Fun to consider in a comic book vein, but ridiculously impractical and uneconomic.  There are millions of acres of unused land in the US alone.  If it's worthwhile to build a concrete structure and put tillable land on top of it, then it's feasible to improve barren land into tillable condition.

          All this talk about "pie-in-the-All this talk about "pie-in-the-<wbr>sky" schemes that will *never* come to fruition is a waste of bandwidth.  Like moon colonies -- fine for research, maybe, but never practical.  Why spend, oh, $1 billion a person to build a habitat on the moon when we have thousands of homeless on our streets, and thousands of people starving, thousands of children slaving in diamond mines, thousands of

          Talk is cheap, and it's often fun, but heaven help us if we actually ever start spending money on such schemes.  The absurd waste of money in Iraq is just one example of such misguided thinking.

          My $0.02 worth, as they say.

          Ralph

          In a message dated 6/27/07 8:32:42 AM, dleonardi@safetyspaIn a message


          That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.

          Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.

          Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.

          Doug









          Ralph
          Ralph Hueston Kratz

          Rhkratzse@...

          510-236-6668
          Fax 510-215-2430

          724 McLaughlin Street
          Richmond CA 94805-1402 USA



          **************************************
          See what's free at http://www.aol.See w





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        • Franz Nahrada
          ... I wonder how long it takes until people understand that we live in a dustbubble of broken promises, that the old dreams of monetary growth connected to
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 4 3:44 AM
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            Alex Flynn writes:
            >So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large
            >government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony,
            >etc. This also has an effect that people realize that education equals
            >monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less
            >educated population.


            I wonder how long it takes until people understand that we live in a
            dustbubble of broken promises, that the old dreams of monetary growth
            connected to real economy growth are once and for all - obsolete. After
            300 years of growth madness we have the chance to finally face real needs
            instead of sacrificing humanity for all these wet Fuhrers dreams...

            Found a good essay recently to support that point here:

            Adam Arvidsson: The Crisis of Value and the Ethical Economy
            http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Crisis_of_Value_and_the_Ethical_Economy

            Arcologies are a good concept, fantastic machines for the common good and
            the individual growth, but there needs to be a shift in resources to
            supporting large self-providing and self-supporting economic systems. As
            long as this is seen as another industrial and business opportunity with
            no changes in social relations and lifestyle, nothing will come about.

            Franz Nahrada
          • Jeff Buderer
            Ralph, Alex, Franz, Ralph, I have to say that your quickness to reject alt views in your writing does seem to encourage someone to react in a flamer type of
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 4 4:52 AM
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