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Re: [arcology] The Vertical Farm

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  • Douglas Leonardi
    That s part of the point....reduction of food miles. Even if you need a whole agro-district within or near a city, it means the food doesn t need to be
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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      That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.
       
      Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.
       
      Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.
       
      Doug

      yggdrasil@... wrote:
      There was a really good show on this - I think on science channel not too long ago.  I was very impressed with the concept, but a little disappointed in the number of people that would be supported per structure - something on the order of 75,000 people.
       
      Still, it might have an impact on food prices (if you have enough of them), fuel consumption in the area of food transportation, quality of life - people could eat better and healthier from these things and overall energy costs per 1000 of people.
       
      Alex Flynn
       
      ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
      From: "theghostphaedrus" <morgan.lawless@ gmail.com>
      I found this through the BBC News website. It's a very indepth look at
      some of the design and technology that would go into creating a farm
      that could exist within an urban setting. Check it out if you have a
      few minutes.

      http://www.vertical farm.com/ index.php


    • yggdrasil@comcast.net
      Oh, I certainly agree - it was just that the building seemed very large and the number of people it fed seemed - not very small, just ho-hum. I m thinking
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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        Oh, I certainly agree - it was just that the building seemed very large and the number of people it fed seemed - not very small, just ho-hum.  I'm thinking twice that many people would be a sweet spot to be.
         
        So, my thought was that food would have to be soooo expensive to cover the cost of the property and property taxes that we would be living very expensive lifestyles already for this to become practical.
         
        Of course, this could be overridden (the cost of the property anyway) if state governements excersized their right to take land as necessary for the states use and betterment of the people.  And then on top of that - they might have to not assess property taxes on these buildings (if commercially owned) so that they can make a profit.
         
        Alex Flynn
         
        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: Douglas Leonardi <dleonardi@...>

        That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.
         
        Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.
         
        Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.
         
        Doug

        yggdrasil@comcast. net wrote:
        There was a really good show on this - I think on science channel not too long ago.  I was very impressed with the concept, but a little disappointed in the number of people that would be supported per structure - something on the order of 75,000 people.
         
        Still, it might have an impact on food prices (if you have enough of them), fuel consumption in the area of food transportation, quality of life - people could eat better and healthier from these things and overall energy costs per 1000 of people.
         
        Alex Flynn
         
        ------------ -- Original message ------------ --
        From: "theghostphaedrus" <morgan.lawless@ gmail.com>
        I found this through the BBC News website. It's a very indepth look at
        some of the design and technology that would go into creating a farm
        that could exist within an urban setting. Check it out if you have a
        few minutes.

        http://www.vertical farm.com/ index.php

         

      • rhkratzse@aol.com
        I m sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk mental masturbation -- a complete waste of time. I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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          I'm sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk "mental masturbation" -- a complete waste of time.   I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to mention a few thoughts.  Transportation is so "cheap" that farmers in China are being outpriced by corn shipped to China from Kansas; even with the US's infinitely higher wages it's cheaper than locally grown corn.

          But a "high-rise farm" strikes me as a completely absurd proposition.  Fun to consider in a comic book vein, but ridiculously impractical and uneconomic.  There are millions of acres of unused land in the US alone.  If it's worthwhile to build a concrete structure and put tillable land on top of it, then it's feasible to improve barren land into tillable condition.

          All this talk about "pie-in-the-sky" schemes that will *never* come to fruition is a waste of bandwidth.  Like moon colonies -- fine for research, maybe, but never practical.  Why spend, oh, $1 billion a person to build a habitat on the moon when we have thousands of homeless on our streets, and thousands of people starving, thousands of children slaving in diamond mines, thousands of children dying of malnutrition, etc.

          Talk is cheap, and it's often fun, but heaven help us if we actually ever start spending money on such schemes.  The absurd waste of money in Iraq is just one example of such misguided thinking.

          My $0.02 worth, as they say.

          Ralph

          In a message dated 6/27/07 8:32:42 AM, dleonardi@... writes:
          That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.
           
          Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.
           
          Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.
           
          Doug









          Ralph
          Ralph Hueston Kratz

          Rhkratzse@...

          510-236-6668
          Fax 510-215-2430

          724 McLaughlin Street
          Richmond CA 94805-1402 USA



          **************************************
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        • yggdrasil@comcast.net
          Well, it might be mental masturbation. But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it. No doubt though, there are detractions
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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            Well, it might be mental masturbation.  But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it.
             
            No doubt though, there are detractions as I mentioned earlier - to this idea.  One point I missed; however, if to make this work you needed to give the land to entities that would build these things - and - forgive them property taxes - there would be two major outcomes to it.
             
            1) Property taxes would go up for the people still living there
            2) Property values (because of the decrease in supply) would go up.
             
            Still, however, if you position such buildings outside the cities there would be a significant savings in the transportation of food.  No doubt, as you mentioned - food transportation is cheap.  However, if you could do something like this on a massive scale (not saying that any one is, but if you could) then you could reduce by large amounts the fuel consumed for us to eat.
             
            I don't think I have a problem with lunar colonies, space station colonies or other attempts to move the human domain off Earth.  For too long humanity has grown stagnant and basically frontierless.  But only if there is a devotion a commitment - to doing it and making it a long term proposition.
             
            So far, our space efforts have been feeble and short lived.  Such efforts, would be government spending which has a multiplier effect and would improve our economy.  This is why states love military bases even as the federal government attempts to reduce spending by closing bases.  Often a base closure will cause the collapse of the local economy.
             
            Efforts such as the war in Iraq; however, do not have a multiplier.  This is because much of the money is not spent in the United States.
             
            So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony, etc.  This also has an effect that people realize that education equals monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less educated population.
             
            All that said, most of the plans I've seen for lunar colonies, lunar vacation spots, haven't been very good and this is probably why they haven't been implemented.  I have a very positive attitude toward humanity.  I think there isn't a question of if we could do it - either verticle farming or lunar projects or arcologies or whatever.  But at the moment we don't seem to be putting enough thought in to them and motivation in to them to make them realities.
             
            my .05 cents - correcting for inflation....  hmmm no when did that 'my .02 cents' idea come out (or a penny for your thoughts)?  It is probably my $25....
             
            Alex Flynn
             
            -------------- Original message --------------
            From: rhkratzse@...

            I'm sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk "mental masturbation" -- a complete waste of time.   I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to mention a few thoughts.  Transportation is so "cheap" that farmers in China are being outpriced by corn shipped to China from Kansas; even with the US's infinitely higher wages it's cheaper than locally grown corn.

            But a "high-rise farm" strikes me as a completely absurd proposition.  Fun to consider in a comic book vein, but ridiculously impractical and uneconomic.  There are millions of acres of unused land in the US alone.  If it's worthwhile to build a concrete structure and put tillable land on top of it, then it's feasible to improve barren land into tillable condition.

            All this talk about "pie-in-the- sky" schemes that will *never* come to fruition is a waste of bandwidth.  Like moon colonies -- fine for research, maybe, but never practical.  Why spend, oh, $1 billion a person to build a habitat on the moon when we have thousands of homeless on our streets, and thousands of people starving, thousands of children slaving in diamond mines, thousands of children dying of malnutrition, etc.

            Talk is cheap, and it's often fun, but heaven help us if we actually ever start spending money on such schemes.  The absurd waste of money in Iraq is just one example of such misguided thinking.

            My $0.02 worth, as they say.

            Ralph

            In a message dated 6/27/07 8:32:42 AM, dleonardi@safetyspa n.com writes:

            That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.

            Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.

            Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.

            Doug









            Ralph
            Ralph Hueston Kratz

            Rhkratzse@aol. com

            510-236-6668
            Fax 510-215-2430

            724 McLaughlin Street
            Richmond CA 94805-1402 USA



            ************ ********* ********* ********
            See what's free at http://www.aol. com.

          • Franz Nahrada
            Adding to Ralphs remarks, at least in Europe farming is much more integrated in societies. It has a multipurpose function to keep landscapes from eroding, thus
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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              Adding to Ralphs remarks,

              at least in Europe farming is much more integrated in societies. It has a
              multipurpose function to keep landscapes from eroding, thus preserve
              water, soil, function and aesthetics.

              Humans have to deeply withdrawn from nature by simulteneusly abusing and
              depleting the resources of this planet, and concepts that abandon cultural
              landcape in the name of "self - regulating ecosystems" will not heal but
              deepen this alienation.

              Franz
            • rhkratzse@aol.com
              I was particularly struck by the difference in European (at least German) farms and American ones. American farms are generally laid out in big compact
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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                I was particularly struck by the difference in European (at least German) farms and American ones.  American farms are generally laid out in big compact areas, like a quarter-mile square (at least in Kansas) with the farm building, including a home, along one edge or in the middle, widely separated from its neighbors. 

                The farms I saw in German appeared to be laid out sort of like a pie cut into pieces, with the homes close to each other in the center (called a "village" :), and the farmland radiating out from there, more or less.  In other words there was a social grouping of homes instead of a scattering of isolated homes.  Obviously that layout won't work everywhere, but where it does it seems highly desirable.  I saw the same thing in China not too long ago.  Although the social system is different the people clustered together in the middle of their communal farmland.

                Ralph

                In a message dated 6/27/07 10:38:35 AM, f.nahrada@... writes:
                Adding to Ralphs remarks,

                at least in Europe farming is much more integrated in societies. It has a
                multipurpose function to keep landscapes from eroding, thus preserve
                water, soil, function and aesthetics.

                Humans have to deeply withdrawn from nature by simulteneusly abusing and
                depleting the resources of this planet, and concepts that abandon cultural
                landcape in the name of "self - regulating ecosystems" will not heal but
                deepen this alienation.

                Franz

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              • Franz Nahrada
                ... Thank you Ralph. Actually the Global Villages concept is based on this scheme, and the new turn to renewable resources that will increase the value and
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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                  Rhkratzse@... writes:
                  >I was particularly struck by the difference in European (at least German)
                  >farms and American ones. American farms are generally laid out in big
                  >compact areas, like a quarter-mile square (at least in Kansas) with the
                  >farm building, including a home, along one edge or in the middle, widely
                  >separated from its neighbors.
                  >
                  >The farms I saw in German appeared to be laid out sort of like a pie cut
                  >into pieces, with the homes close to each other in the center (called a
                  >"village" :), and the farmland radiating out from there, more or less.
                  >In other words there was a social grouping of homes instead of a
                  >scattering of isolated homes. Obviously that layout won't work
                  >everywhere, but where it does it seems highly desirable. I saw the same
                  >thing in China not too long ago. Although the social system is different
                  >the people clustered together in the middle of their communal farmland.
                  >
                  >Ralph


                  Thank you Ralph.

                  Actually the Global Villages concept is based on this scheme, and the new
                  turn to renewable resources that will increase the value and importance of
                  agriculture for the whole arena of human production (phyto-based chemistry
                  instead of petrol based chemistry) makes the decision about the future of
                  rural areas a very urgent decision.

                  Global Villages are villages that turn into Mini-Arcologies, which means
                  they are able to support and feed a larger number of people who can enjoy
                  a life a much more embedded into nature and community.It is also a very
                  clear income opportunity for a new generation of farmers providing locally
                  with not only fresh food, but a lot of amenities (energy, housing,......)
                  for the need of a population they share their open space with - always
                  being competitive with urban housing and living costs!!. This concept is
                  possible through the communications revolution which allows us to work
                  within the net, no matter where we are, on propjects of any size with
                  people all around the globe.

                  So global villlages allow us to shape cultural communities, move together
                  on the invitation of such hosts and start living common values, whilst
                  sharing our mental productivity in a new Open Source based economy of
                  intellectual commons. Needless to say that we have to decide between an
                  urban economy that deprives us from all our means of income and
                  subsistence and makes us slaves of external circumstances - and a return
                  to distributed, decentralized self-determination that can increasingly
                  produce all the urban amenities of life when wisely applying arcology
                  elements in building. In Europe we see that this existing villages are
                  allready hardly able to compete with the agro - industries if they still
                  continue to focus on external markets. So becoming Global Villages is a
                  natural alternative for them. And Europe might be in heavy advantage
                  regarding the coindition for their emergence.

                  But I do not see a reason why Americans should not be able to adopt that
                  scheme and benefit from it either; actually the very existence of
                  Arcosanti was and is a proof of concept for me that meaningful concepts
                  have more room to grow and evolve there - of course I made these
                  perceptions before the dark days in politics started.

                  Franz
                • anne tonks
                  Japanese farms, as least north of tokyo tend to also have clustered buildings with farming radiating out from the concentration of homes. Again, it seems
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 27, 2007
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                    Japanese farms, as least north of tokyo tend to also
                    have clustered buildings with farming radiating out
                    from the concentration of homes. Again, it seems
                    farming styles here also demonstrate the deeply
                    imbedded "american" value pioneering, self sufficiency
                    and independence and their drive to own their own
                    piece of the world. For this reason Las Vegas with
                    plenty of dry, relatively level land has built miles
                    and miles of "suburbs" in the city because it meets
                    the needs of purchasing clients for their own yard and
                    "place". In America I gradually see this changing,
                    but it probably accounts for the draw of urban sprawl
                    nearly as much as the auto.

                    Anne
                    --- rhkratzse@... wrote:

                    > I was particularly struck by the difference in
                    > European (at least German)
                    > farms and American ones. American farms are
                    > generally laid out in big compact
                    > areas, like a quarter-mile square (at least in
                    > Kansas) with the farm building,
                    > including a home, along one edge or in the middle,
                    > widely separated from its
                    > neighbors.
                    >
                    > The farms I saw in German appeared to be laid out
                    > sort of like a pie cut into
                    > pieces, with the homes close to each other in the
                    > center (called a "village"
                    > :), and the farmland radiating out from there, more
                    > or less. In other words
                    > there was a social grouping of homes instead of a
                    > scattering of isolated
                    > homes. Obviously that layout won't work
                    > everywhere, but where it does it seems
                    > highly desirable. I saw the same thing in China
                    > not too long ago. Although
                    > the social system is different the people clustered
                    > together in the middle of
                    > their communal farmland.
                    >
                    > Ralph
                    >
                    > In a message dated 6/27/07 10:38:35 AM,
                    > f.nahrada@... writes:
                    > > Adding to Ralphs remarks,
                    > >
                    > > at least in Europe farming is much more integrated
                    > in societies. It has a
                    > > multipurpose function to keep landscapes from
                    > eroding, thus preserve
                    > > water, soil, function and aesthetics.
                    > >
                    > > Humans have to deeply withdrawn from nature by
                    > simulteneusly abusing and
                    > > depleting the resources of this planet, and
                    > concepts that abandon cultural
                    > > landcape in the name of "self - regulating
                    > ecosystems" will not heal but
                    > > deepen this alienation.
                    > >
                    > > Franz
                    > >
                    > > Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post) |
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                    > > topic
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                  • rhkratzse@aol.com
                    Alex, Thank you for your thoughts. It s nice to have a reasoned conversation about issues that we obviously disagree on, rather than the more-common
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 4, 2007
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                      Alex,

                      Thank you for your thoughts.  It's nice to have a reasoned conversation about issues that we obviously disagree on, rather than the more-common SHOUTING!  :)

                      Ralph

                      In a message dated 7/3/07 8:11:27 PM, yggdrasil@... writes:
                      Well, it might be mental masturbation.  But who knows - maybe in this masturbation something good could come out of it.
                       
                      No doubt though, there are detractions as I mentioned earlier - to this idea.  One point I missed; however, if to make this work you needed to give the land to entities that would build these things - and - forgive them property taxes - there would be two major outcomes to it.
                       
                      1) Property taxes would go up for the people still living there
                      2) Property values (because of the decrease in supply) would go up.
                       
                      Still, however, if you position such buildings outside the cities there would be a significant savings in the transportation of food.  No doubt, as you mentioned - food transportation is cheap.  However, if you could do something like this on a massive scale (not saying that any one is, but if you could) then you could reduce by large amounts the fuel consumed for us to eat.
                       
                      I don't think I have a problem with lunar colonies, space station colonies or other attempts to move the human domain off Earth.  For too long humanity has grown stagnant and basically frontierless.  But only if there is a devotion a commitment - to doing it and making it a long term proposition.
                       
                      So far, our space efforts have been feeble and short lived.  Such efforts, would be government spending which has a multiplier effect and would improve our economy.  This is why states love military bases even as the federal government attempts to reduce spending by closing bases.  Often a base closure will cause the collapse of the local economy.
                       
                      Efforts such as the war in Iraq; however, do not have a multiplier.  This is because much of the money is not spent in the United States.
                       
                      So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony, etc.  This also has an effect that people realize that education equals monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less educated population.
                       
                      All that said, most of the plans I've seen for lunar colonies, lunar vacation spots, haven't been very good and this is probably why they haven't been implemented.  I have a very positive attitude toward humanity.  I think there isn't a question of if we could do it - either verticle farming or lunar projects or arcologies or whatever.  But at the moment we don't seem to be putting enough thought in to them and motivation in to them to make them realities.
                       
                      my .05 cents - correcting for inflation...my .05 cents - correcting for inflation...<wbr>.  hmmm no when did that 'my .02 cents' idea come out (or a penny
                       
                      Alex Flynn
                       

                      ------------------------<wbr>-- Original mes---
                      From: rhkratzse@...

                      I'm sorry but I honestly consider this type of talk "mental masturbation" -- a complete waste of time.   I suppose I should just ignore it, but I want to mention a few thoughts.  Transportation is so "cheap" that farmers in China are being outpriced by corn shipped to China from Kansas; even with the US's infinitely higher wages it's cheaper than locally grown corn.

                      But a "high-rise farm" strikes me as a completely absurd proposition.  Fun to consider in a comic book vein, but ridiculously impractical and uneconomic.  There are millions of acres of unused land in the US alone.  If it's worthwhile to build a concrete structure and put tillable land on top of it, then it's feasible to improve barren land into tillable condition.

                      All this talk about "pie-in-the-All this talk about "pie-in-the-<wbr>sky" schemes that will *never* come to fruition is a waste of bandwidth.  Like moon colonies -- fine for research, maybe, but never practical.  Why spend, oh, $1 billion a person to build a habitat on the moon when we have thousands of homeless on our streets, and thousands of people starving, thousands of children slaving in diamond mines, thousands of

                      Talk is cheap, and it's often fun, but heaven help us if we actually ever start spending money on such schemes.  The absurd waste of money in Iraq is just one example of such misguided thinking.

                      My $0.02 worth, as they say.

                      Ralph

                      In a message dated 6/27/07 8:32:42 AM, dleonardi@safetyspaIn a message


                      That's part of the point....reduction of food miles.

                      Even if you need a whole "agro-district" within or near a city, it means the food doesn't need to be trucked cross country.

                      Plus, you can regulate weather and pests, reducing the need for pesticides and fertilizers (another HUGE petroleum and industrial carbon footprint) while ensuring a more reliable yield per acre.

                      Doug









                      Ralph
                      Ralph Hueston Kratz

                      Rhkratzse@...

                      510-236-6668
                      Fax 510-215-2430

                      724 McLaughlin Street
                      Richmond CA 94805-1402 USA



                      **************************************
                      See what's free at http://www.aol.See w





                      Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
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                    • Franz Nahrada
                      ... I wonder how long it takes until people understand that we live in a dustbubble of broken promises, that the old dreams of monetary growth connected to
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 4, 2007
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                        Alex Flynn writes:
                        >So, if you wanted to increase the economics of an area - you have large
                        >government funded projects such as an effort to create a lunar colony,
                        >etc. This also has an effect that people realize that education equals
                        >monetary rewards - and I'd prefer a more educated population to a less
                        >educated population.


                        I wonder how long it takes until people understand that we live in a
                        dustbubble of broken promises, that the old dreams of monetary growth
                        connected to real economy growth are once and for all - obsolete. After
                        300 years of growth madness we have the chance to finally face real needs
                        instead of sacrificing humanity for all these wet Fuhrers dreams...

                        Found a good essay recently to support that point here:

                        Adam Arvidsson: The Crisis of Value and the Ethical Economy
                        http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Crisis_of_Value_and_the_Ethical_Economy

                        Arcologies are a good concept, fantastic machines for the common good and
                        the individual growth, but there needs to be a shift in resources to
                        supporting large self-providing and self-supporting economic systems. As
                        long as this is seen as another industrial and business opportunity with
                        no changes in social relations and lifestyle, nothing will come about.

                        Franz Nahrada
                      • Jeff Buderer
                        Ralph, Alex, Franz, Ralph, I have to say that your quickness to reject alt views in your writing does seem to encourage someone to react in a flamer type of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 4, 2007
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