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RE: [arcology] Re:It's about Ownership

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  • jeff@onevillagefoundation.org
    Anne, I appreciate your efforts. If you have a chance please do link up with Nadia Begin and David Tollas two long time friends and former coworkers of mine
    Message 1 of 23 , May 23, 2007
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      Anne,

      I appreciate your efforts.

      If you have a chance please do link up with Nadia Begin and David Tollas two
      long time friends and former coworkers of mine from my Arco days. Nadia as
      planning director worked with Paolo for several years while was David
      construction manager.

      Jeff

      -----Original Message-----
      From: arcology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of anne tonks
      Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:36 AM
      To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [arcology] Re:It's about Ownership

      Hi Chris:

      I am going to Arcosanti on the 3rd for 2 weeks and
      I'll talk to Paolo about it. Have you seen the plans
      for La Loggia? The brochure is beautiful. It's
      basically the guest rooms raised to 3 or 4 levels and
      sold on a time share basis.

      They never got further than the brochure--but I have
      no doubt we could sell all the shares if there was
      ownership and something that could be sold again later
      or passed to our children.

      AND MARK YOUR CALENDAR. TODAY I MADE A RESERVATION
      FOR GASWORKS PARK FOR TWO TABLES WITH GRILLS FOR
      SATURDAY, JULY 28TH for another Alumni picnic.

      Last year was fun and while I am at Arcosanti, I will
      use my evening time to get out some info to people and
      will e-mail my list from last year in the next few
      days.

      Anne

      PS, if you want--I'll try and scan and fax you a La
      Loggia brochure while I am at Arcosanti.
      --- Chris ScottHanson <chris@cohousingreso
      <mailto:chris%40cohousingresources.com> urces.com>
      wrote:

      > I would buy in, if there was real ownership
      > possible.
      >
      > Chris
      >
      >
      > On May 3, 2007, at 7:58 AM, anne tonks wrote:
      >
      > > ANYONE INTERESTED IN AN ARCOSANTI TIME SHARE
      > PLEASE
      > > REPLY
      >
      >
    • Dan Keram
      Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 5, 2007
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        Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will to continue construction, or is the East Crescent the end of it all?
         
        Dan Keram


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      • Jeff Buderer
        Dan, I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 6, 2007
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          Dan,

           

          I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to shift to consider such ideas and how they can be practically incorporated into the project.


          (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

        • Chris ScottHanson
          In my opinion there is plenty available to sell at Arcosanti now. Just what s there now is the start that would change the entire dynamic. The new
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 7, 2007
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            In my opinion there is plenty available to sell at Arcosanti now.  Just what's there now is the start that would change the entire dynamic.  The new "homeowners" would be owners, not just visitors, and would make a HUGE difference in the way the place feels and operates.

            A strange idea would suddenly begin to feel like a strange reality.

            There are lots and lots of us baby boomers out there, many of us alum., with some money to put where are hearts are.

            Chris ScottHanson


            On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Jeff Buderer wrote:


            Dan,

             

            I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to shift to consider such ideas and how they can be practically incorporated into the project.

             

            My understanding is that until money is raised to pave the road going into Arcosantithat the project will not be able to add any additional large buildings.

             

            If you check the daily progress you will see things are proceeding at reasonable pace given the limited resources of the project. What done in EC phase IV looks good and Dave Tollas is now overseeing a team in refurbishing the entrance area into the Crafts III and so that is very much needed.

             

            I recall Anne Tonks had said she was going to Arcosanti in May I recall. I am wondering if she has a progress report for us.

             

            Jeff

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: arcology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Keram
            Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 12:16 PM
            To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership

             

            Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will to continue construction, or is the East Crescent the end of it all?

             

            Dan Keram

          • Dan Keram
            yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 8, 2007
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              yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
               
              Dan Keram


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            • Chris ScottHanson
              I don t know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 8, 2007
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                I don't know Mary and Tomiaki.  Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom.  Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne?  Sounds like the middle ages, before the private ownership of land?   When the non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into the new world of ownership and out of the world of serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti.
                 
                Do you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS market?  42% or more of the population is the last number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked into it.)

                Has anyone done the demographics on the list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages.  I will bet that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer to 80%, or maybe even higher.

                The earliest Arco Alums start in 1970,  including some I know of reading this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)  I happened to be there in '81.  Last I heard the alum numbers were up over 6000.  Anyone know an update?

                Are there buyers out there?  YES!

                Does it matter what Mary or Tomiaki think?  I don't know.  But maybe it should matter to them.


                Chris



                 
                On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:


                yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
                 
                Dan Keram

                .
                ,_._,___

              • Jeff Buderer
                Chris, What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti they basically hit the target in terms of
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 10, 2007
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                  Chris,

                  What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti they basically hit the target in terms of explaining the gist of the situation.

                  Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an opportunity within our networks to invest in something based on the thinking that has brought us here but more in line with what you put forward below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti admin people are reluctant to embrace.

                  I would like to hear more about your experiences in the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from that to develop a practical model for developing small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic starting point for their scaling and replication that is based on a understanding of what it takes to grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.

                  In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the financial and volunteer support of the alumni but conflicting with that a concern that with that would lead to a desire to have a role in the development of the project.

                  Jeff


                  From: Chris ScottHanson <chris@...>
                  Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                  To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership


                  I don't know Mary and Tomiaki.  Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom.  Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne?  Sounds like the middle ages, before the private ownership of land?   When the non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into the new world of ownership and out of the world of serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti.

                   
                  Do you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS market?  42% or more of the population is the last number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked into it.)

                  Has anyone done the demographics on the list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages.  I will bet that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer to 80%, or maybe even higher.

                  The earliest Arco Alums start in 1970,  including some I know of reading this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)  I happened to be there in '81.  Last I heard the alum numbers were up over 6000.  Anyone know an update?

                  Are there buyers out there?  YES!

                  Does it matter what Mary or Tomiaki think?  I don't know.  But maybe it should matter to them.


                  Chris



                   
                  On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:


                  yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
                   
                  Dan Keram

                  .
                  ,_._,___


                • anne tonks
                  Hi All Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice time. Chris wanted to know about the age
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 10, 2007
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                    Hi All

                    Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the
                    juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice
                    time.

                    Chris wanted to know about the age distribution of
                    arcosanti alums and/or interested parties.

                    The average age of an arcosanti alumni is now about 47
                    years of age. That is all alumni from 1970 thru 2005.

                    Definitely a group that could go somewhere and build
                    something if they wanted to do so.--although some
                    still have to get the kids through college!!!!

                    There is a town/city for 36000 people under
                    development about 25 miles south of Hoover Dam on us
                    93. It's called the Ranch at White Hills. All the
                    property was purchased by a man named Leonard Mardian
                    who is a wealthy las vegas/southern california
                    developer but now in his late 60's is interested in
                    more ecologically sensitive development. Perhaps he
                    has a sort of legacy in mind--but not sure of that--I
                    also suspect he will make a ton of money as well.

                    My cousin Elno Roundy who lives in Kingman is the
                    Project Manager for the project.

                    I know they plan to have nothing more than 10 minutes
                    walk from most needed services.

                    The biggest hitch in this scheme is the lack of
                    employment opportunities. I believe one of the
                    reasons it is situated as it is is a combination of
                    several huge pieces of property for sale AND MORE
                    IMPORTANTLY A NEW BRIDGE IN FRONT OF HOOVER DAM
                    WCHEDULED FOR COMPLETION NEXT YEAR which makes it less
                    than an hour from las vegas.

                    I drove by the site on my way to Arcosanti and I think
                    the trailer crowd is planning to use that type of
                    housing for their residences (not totally so--some are
                    manufactured homes and look traditional. But most
                    property is not yet for sale Iexcept as 5 or so acres
                    parcels) since the city plan has conceptually been
                    approved but last I heard the final wasn't.

                    So, if someone wanted to go down there and start an
                    arcology--it might be affordable land (and some land
                    up toward the back of the property away from the road
                    is just plumb full of joshua trees and quite
                    beautiful).

                    Check it out at http://theranchatwhitehills.com/

                    I just googled to see what was available. Here is
                    something quote unquote "nearby" which is 100 acres
                    for $899,000.

                    http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/ProfileSE.aspx?LID=14580651&linkcode=10850&sourcecode=1lww2t006a00001

                    They do have 100 year supply of water at white hills
                    which was required to get the original permits. In
                    fact that is how my cousin got involved as he is an
                    expert on water in the desert and actually
                    experimented, supervised drilling and verified the
                    water supply in an aquifer. He has some plans which
                    he thinks will provide for a constant supply of water
                    for perpetuity having to do with harvesting of rain
                    water in specific ways so that instead of running off
                    or evaporating about half of it ends up back in the
                    acquifer.

                    Maybe not an architecturally elegant and visually
                    beautiful development--but one that might actually
                    happen!!!!

                    If you look into it let me know what you think. I'm
                    having lunch with my cousin who is involved in this
                    project next week-end and will have some more info
                    after that if anyone is interested!!!

                    Anne


                    --- Jeff Buderer <jeff@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Chris,
                    >
                    > What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a
                    > lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti
                    > they basically hit the target in terms of explaining
                    > the gist of the situation.
                    >
                    > Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or
                    > does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an
                    > opportunity within our networks to invest in
                    > something based on the thinking that has brought us
                    > here but more in line with what you put forward
                    > below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti
                    > admin people are reluctant to embrace.
                    >
                    > I would like to hear more about your experiences in
                    > the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from
                    > that to develop a practical model for developing
                    > small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I
                    > think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so
                    > unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic
                    > starting point for their scaling and replication
                    > that is based on a understanding of what it takes to
                    > grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.
                    >
                    > In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to
                    > update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned
                    > such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may
                    > actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the
                    > financial and volunteer support of the alumni but
                    > conflicting with that a concern that with that would
                    > lead to a desire to have a role in the development
                    > of the project.
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------
                    > From: Chris ScottHanson
                    > <chris@...>
                    > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                    > To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership
                    >
                    > I don't know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the
                    > keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs
                    > to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
                    > before the private ownership of land? When the
                    > non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into
                    > the new world of ownership and out of the world of
                    > serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti. Do
                    > you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS
                    > market? 42% or more of the population is the last
                    > number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked
                    > into it.)Has anyone done the demographics on the
                    > list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages. I will bet
                    > that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer
                    > to 80%, or maybe even higher.The earliest Arco Alums
                    > start in 1970, including some I know of reading
                    > this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested
                    > women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)
                    > I happened to be there in '81. Last I heard the
                    > alum numbers were up over 6000. Anyone know an
                    > update?Are there buyers out there? YES!Does it
                    > matter what Mary or Tomiaki think? I don't know.
                    > But maybe it should matter to them.Chris
                    > On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:yeah,
                    > yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered
                    > though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki,
                    > do you think they will really be accepting of
                    > Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares? Dan
                    > Keram.,_._,___
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jeff Buderer
                    Anne, Thanks for that report. I had a chance to check out your Cousin s project and I have to say that it would be great to hear more about the ecological
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 11, 2007
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                      Anne,

                      Thanks for that report. I had a chance to check out your Cousin's project and I have to say that it would be great to hear more about the "ecological features of the site" because I saw nothing about it on the website.

                      I did see that there has been a delay in the megafreeway planned to bypass Hoover Dam and reduce travel times by 1/2 hour to 45 min (@80+ miles a hour) to LV from the planned development area. I was bit shocked at the scale of the development. It is planned to have over 60k of single family homes and that means even with contemporary houses being relative sparse at 2.3 people per houses you are talking about a 100000 plus people development definitely ranking up there with the planned city of Anthem by the Mega Sprawl Builder Del Webb http://www.delwebb.com/anthemarizona/.

                      Now I recall living at Arcosanti and seeing the urban sprawl creep closer to us Anthem was a big step in that direction. The glare of Pheonix actually affected the night sky but of course it is unlikely that Arcosanti will ever be surrounded by suburbia. However careful thought should be given before investing in a project whose neighbors might reflect the worst excesses of suburban sprawl. Often an Arcology themed project could also serve as a role model as well and possibly if presented properly to the real estate mangate could actually be an opportunity for him to consider his legacy a bit...

                      Indeed it was Soleri's sense of being overrun by Pheonix sprawl that led him to escape 70 miles north to establish Arcosanti.

                      Jeff

                      Hi All

                      Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the
                      juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice
                      time.

                      Chris wanted to know about the age distribution of
                      arcosanti alums and/or interested parties.

                      The average age of an arcosanti alumni is now about 47
                      years of age. That is all alumni from 1970 thru 2005.

                      Definitely a group that could go somewhere and build
                      something if they wanted to do so.--although some
                      still have to get the kids through college!!!!

                      There is a town/city for 36000 people under
                      development about 25 miles south of Hoover Dam on us
                      93. It's called the Ranch at White Hills. All the
                      property was purchased by a man named Leonard Mardian
                      who is a wealthy las vegas/southern california
                      developer but now in his late 60's is interested in
                      more ecologically sensitive development. Perhaps he
                      has a sort of legacy in mind--but not sure of that--I
                      also suspect he will make a ton of money as well.

                      My cousin Elno Roundy who lives in Kingman is the
                      Project Manager for the project.

                      I know they plan to have nothing more than 10 minutes
                      walk from most needed services.

                      The biggest hitch in this scheme is the lack of
                      employment opportunities. I believe one of the
                      reasons it is situated as it is is a combination of
                      several huge pieces of property for sale AND MORE
                      IMPORTANTLY A NEW BRIDGE IN FRONT OF HOOVER DAM
                      WCHEDULED FOR COMPLETION NEXT YEAR which makes it less
                      than an hour from las vegas.

                      I drove by the site on my way to Arcosanti and I think
                      the trailer crowd is planning to use that type of
                      housing for their residences (not totally so--some are
                      manufactured homes and look traditional. But most
                      property is not yet for sale Iexcept as 5 or so acres
                      parcels) since the city plan has conceptually been
                      approved but last I heard the final wasn't.

                      So, if someone wanted to go down there and start an
                      arcology--it might be affordable land (and some land
                      up toward the back of the property away from the road
                      is just plumb full of joshua trees and quite
                      beautiful).

                      Check it out at http://theranchatwh itehills. com/

                      I just googled to see what was available. Here is
                      something quote unquote "nearby" which is 100 acres
                      for $899,000.

                      http://www.loopnet. com/xNet/ MainSite/ Listing/Profile/ ProfileSE. aspx?LID= 14580651& linkcode= 10850&sourcecode =1lww2t006a00001

                      They do have 100 year supply of water at white hills
                      which was required to get the original permits. In
                      fact that is how my cousin got involved as he is an
                      expert on water in the desert and actually
                      experimented, supervised drilling and verified the
                      water supply in an aquifer. He has some plans which
                      he thinks will provide for a constant supply of water
                      for perpetuity having to do with harvesting of rain
                      water in specific ways so that instead of running off
                      or evaporating about half of it ends up back in the
                      acquifer.

                      Maybe not an architecturally elegant and visually
                      beautiful development- -but one that might actually
                      happen!!!!

                      If you look into it let me know what you think. I'm
                      having lunch with my cousin who is involved in this
                      project next week-end and will have some more info
                      after that if anyone is interested!! !

                      Anne

                      --- Jeff Buderer <jeff@onevillagefoun dation.org>
                      wrote:

                      > Chris,
                      >
                      > What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a
                      > lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti
                      > they basically hit the target in terms of explaining
                      > the gist of the situation.
                      >
                      > Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or
                      > does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an
                      > opportunity within our networks to invest in
                      > something based on the thinking that has brought us
                      > here but more in line with what you put forward
                      > below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti
                      > admin people are reluctant to embrace.
                      >
                      > I would like to hear more about your experiences in
                      > the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from
                      > that to develop a practical model for developing
                      > small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I
                      > think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so
                      > unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic
                      > starting point for their scaling and replication
                      > that is based on a understanding of what it takes to
                      > grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.
                      >
                      > In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to
                      > update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned
                      > such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may
                      > actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the
                      > financial and volunteer support of the alumni but
                      > conflicting with that a concern that with that would
                      > lead to a desire to have a role in the development
                      > of the project.
                      >
                      > Jeff
                      >
                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- -
                      > From: Chris ScottHanson
                      > <chris@cohousingreso urces.com>
                      > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                      > To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                      > Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership
                      >
                      > I don't know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the
                      > keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs
                      > to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
                      > before the private ownership of land? When the
                      > non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into
                      > the new world of ownership and out of the world of
                      > serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti. Do
                      > you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS
                      > market? 42% or more of the population is the last
                      > number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked
                      > into it.)Has anyone done the demographics on the
                      > list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages. I will bet
                      > that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer
                      > to 80%, or maybe even higher.The earliest Arco Alums
                      > start in 1970, including some I know of reading
                      > this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested
                      > women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)
                      > I happened to be there in '81. Last I heard the
                      > alum numbers were up over 6000. Anyone know an
                      > update?Are there buyers out there? YES!Does it
                      > matter what Mary or Tomiaki think? I don't know.
                      > But maybe it should matter to them.Chris
                      > On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:yeah,
                      > yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered
                      > though...... and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki,
                      > do you think they will really be accepting of
                      > Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares? Dan
                      > Keram.,_._,_ __


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