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Re: When I saw this fascinating New York Magazine article on Arcology

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  • Kevin Burgess
    One word and a few numbers why Arcologies are not selling: Iraq & 911 This is the same Mutual Assured Distruction defensive posture of fleeing cities to the
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 21, 2007
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      One word and a few numbers why Arcologies are not selling:
      Iraq & 911

      This is the same 'Mutual Assured Distruction' defensive posture of
      fleeing cities to the suburbs & urban regions during the 50's, 60's
      & 70's. Derange people & societies (I won't blame this on religion;
      the followers of Sharia "Law" have NOTHING to do with Islam; which
      means "Peace"), are targeting large congregations of innocent
      civilians.


      Millions DO continue to live in cities, but most of the entire
      moderm population has made the same move.

      Where there are concentrations of people, LARGE targets, terrorist
      bombers will target them for destruction.

      Are there engineering answers to our defense & safety requirements
      that would make safe(r) Arcologies? The answer is YES.


      Are there still potential buyers for Arcologies? The answer is also
      YES.

      We just need developers to build them, instead of stamping out
      millions of cookie-cutter single-family dwellings.

      Speaking of Tucson; we have OVER TEN THOUSAND SURPLUS SINGLE-FAMILY
      HOMES FOR SALE. The truly sad part about this is that most of us
      (and our ancestors) moved here into the 'wild West' for the wide
      open spaces.

      Arcologies would give us that wilderness back, AND still give us the
      beneifits of modern urban society. It would also be more sustainable.


      Donald Trump, and all your fellows, are you listening out there?





      --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, "jeff buderer" <jeff@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lou, All,
      >
      > I heard about this in the Sustainable Tucson discussion group. When
      > people put into question of the ecological sustainability of dense
    • Chris ScottHanson
      They are not selling, for sure. They are not available for sale. The shift will happen when arcosanti has housing and commercial spaces available for sale to
      Message 2 of 23 , May 2 9:26 AM
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        They are not selling, for sure.  They are not available for sale.

        The shift will happen when arcosanti has housing and commercial spaces available for sale to private owners.

        Creation is about letting go, it is not about control.

        Chris

        On Apr 21, 2007, at 4:40 PM, Kevin Burgess wrote:

        One word and a few numbers why Arcologies are not selling:
        Iraq & 911

        This is the same 'Mutual Assured Distruction' defensive posture of
        fleeing cities to the suburbs & urban regions during the 50's, 60's
        & 70's. Derange people & societies (I won't blame this on religion;
        the followers of Sharia "Law" have NOTHING to do with Islam; which
        means "Peace"), are targeting large congregations of innocent
        civilians.

        Millions DO continue to live in cities, but most of the entire
        moderm population has made the same move.

        Where there are concentrations of people, LARGE targets, terrorist
        bombers will target them for destruction.

        Are there engineering answers to our defense & safety requirements
        that would make safe(r) Arcologies? The answer is YES.

        Are there still potential buyers for Arcologies? The answer is also
        YES.

        We just need developers to build them, instead of stamping out
        millions of cookie-cutter single-family dwellings.

        Speaking of Tucson; we have OVER TEN THOUSAND SURPLUS SINGLE-FAMILY
        HOMES FOR SALE. The truly sad part about this is that most of us
        (and our ancestors) moved here into the 'wild West' for the wide
        open spaces.

        Arcologies would give us that wilderness back, AND still give us the
        beneifits of modern urban society. It would also be more sustainable.

        Donald Trump, and all your fellows, are you listening out there?

        --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, "jeff buderer" <jeff@...> wrote:
        >
        > Lou, All,
        >
        > I heard about this in the Sustainable Tucson discussion group. When
        > people put into question of the ecological sustainability of dense


      • Kevin Burgess
        Chris wrote: They are not selling, for sure. They are not available for sale. The shift will happen when arcosanti has housing and commercial spaces available
        Message 3 of 23 , May 2 12:11 PM
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          Chris wrote:
          "They are not selling, for sure. They are not
          available for sale.

          The shift will happen when arcosanti has housing and
          commercial spaces available for sale to private
          owners."

          None will be built in the middle of sparse urban
          populations.

          ARCOLOGIES HAVE TO BE BUILT WITHIN EXISTING CITIES,
          WHERE POPULATIONS ALREADY ARE, BUY BUILDERS WHO ARE
          ALREADY BUILDING, SOLD BY REALTORS WHO ARE ALREADY
          SELLING.

          THE CURRENT MARKET DOES NOT SUPPORT ARCOLOGIES.

          Please do not send flaming hate mail: I LOVE Paolo
          Soleri's work, and Arcosanti.

          Arcologies were proposed and designed by Soleri,
          but none will become accepted until a practical
          application is built.

          Sadly Arcosanti is NOT practical. Even if the
          greater Phoenix valley mega-city complex over runs
          it's boundaries, it is not a practical site for most
          upwardly mobile businesses or the general population.


          They cannot become popular replacements for the
          horribly crouded & extremely wasteful urban/suburban
          sprawl, not until :
          A. A functional Arcology is built
          --- AND ----
          B. The 'cool' people (people who can afford to live
          anywhere) let everyone else know they WANT to live in
          Arcologies.

          Until then Arcosanti, or ANY Arcology for that matter,
          is a lovely work of fiction. One that you & I may wish
          were true, but it is not a functional working model.

          Arcosanti is not the shining example which will
          compel the general population masses to replace the
          current chaos most of current 'civilization' live in.

          Ninety percent of the worlds population live
          within 50 miles of major waterways or seaside.

          If I could have one wish, it would be to build an
          Arcology in the ruins of New Orleans flooded wards.
          This would be something which will PROVE the
          viability, efficiency, and DESIRABILITY of Arcologies.

          ... but then again, I'm NOT the Donald, or any other
          known/wealthy developer.









          In the meantime: This year over 200,000 single-family
          homes will be built in suburban United States, in a
          market already glutted with un-sellable real estate.


          Kevin

          __________________________________________________
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          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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        • Chris ScottHanson
          Kevin, I disagree. Arcosanti would have sold out, many times over, may years ago, if there was anything there for people to actually buy into. No way to buy
          Message 4 of 23 , May 2 3:03 PM
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            Kevin,

            I disagree.

            Arcosanti would have sold out, many times over, may years ago, if there was anything there for people to actually buy into.  No way to buy has killed the opportunity to bring in real money.

            We do green, sustainable communities. (ecovillages, cohousing, and the like.)  We can't build them fast enough for the demand.  And the traditional developers can't handle the process of having buyers in place before completion, but that is what we specialize in.  Check out out web sites carefully.

            Current projects in process:
            33 units in Oakland, CA  (in entitlements process)
            68 units in Berlin, MA  (under construction)
            54 units plus commercial in Boston (JP)  (25% pre-sold before starting design)


            Chris ScottHanson


            Cohousing Resources LLC & Ecodevelopments LLC

            Ecovillages, Cohousing & Sustainable Communities

            Development and Consulting for a Sustainable Future 

               based on the Natural Power of Community


            PO Box 1288
            Langley, WA 98260

            (360) 321-7850 office
            (206) 260-2800 eFAX
            (617) 894-7661 cell



            email1:          Chris@...

            email2:          cscotthanson@...


            web site 1:      http://www.CohousingResources.com

            web site 2:      http://www.EcoDevelopments.com



            On May 2, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Kevin Burgess wrote:

            Chris wrote:
            "They are not selling, for sure. They are not
            available for sale.

            The shift will happen when arcosanti has housing and
            commercial spaces available for sale to private
            owners."

            None will be built in the middle of sparse urban
            populations.

            ARCOLOGIES HAVE TO BE BUILT WITHIN EXISTING CITIES,
            WHERE POPULATIONS ALREADY ARE, BUY BUILDERS WHO ARE
            ALREADY BUILDING, SOLD BY REALTORS WHO ARE ALREADY
            SELLING.

            THE CURRENT MARKET DOES NOT SUPPORT ARCOLOGIES.

            Please do not send flaming hate mail: I LOVE Paolo
            Soleri's work, and Arcosanti.

            Arcologies were proposed and designed by Soleri,
            but none will become accepted until a practical
            application is built.

            Sadly Arcosanti is NOT practical. Even if the
            greater Phoenix valley mega-city complex over runs
            it's boundaries, it is not a practical site for most
            upwardly mobile businesses or the general population.

            They cannot become popular replacements for the
            horribly crouded & extremely wasteful urban/suburban
            sprawl, not until :
            A. A functional Arcology is built
            --- AND ----
            B. The 'cool' people (people who can afford to live
            anywhere) let everyone else know they WANT to live in
            Arcologies.

            Until then Arcosanti, or ANY Arcology for that matter,
            is a lovely work of fiction. One that you & I may wish
            were true, but it is not a functional working model.

            Arcosanti is not the shining example which will
            compel the general population masses to replace the
            current chaos most of current 'civilization' live in.

            Ninety percent of the worlds population live
            within 50 miles of major waterways or seaside.

            If I could have one wish, it would be to build an
            Arcology in the ruins of New Orleans flooded wards.
            This would be something which will PROVE the
            viability, efficiency, and DESIRABILITY of Arcologies.

            ... but then again, I'm NOT the Donald, or any other
            known/wealthy developer.

            In the meantime: This year over 200,000 single-family
            homes will be built in suburban United States, in a
            market already glutted with un-sellable real estate.

            Kevin

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com


          • Kevin Burgess
            Chris, I m not wrong, but then, neither are you. Yes, buying in, by selling units within a nascent ecomunity would help. Because of their sheer size,
            Message 5 of 23 , May 3 1:21 AM
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              Chris,
              I'm not wrong, but then, neither are you.

              Yes, buying in, by selling units within a nascent ecomunity
              would help. Because of their sheer size, Arcologies are
              prohibitively costly startups.

              GO CONDO!

              Before that, much of the infrastructure would still have to be
              completed prior to such a purchase. If we build it, they will come,
              but we have to prove the concept first.

              You seem to be up in the relatively under populated Northwest.
              I'm also in a sparsely populated area, south of Arcosanti, along the
              Arizona border with Mexico.
              Recently I updated the telecommunication system in a small Motel,
              with 150 rooms. Each room bigger than the space most local Mexican-
              American residents call 'home' nearby. Personally my family desires
              more room, but most individuals, or small families here could be
              very comfortable privatizing a space like this.

              It struck me how the motel bar, restaurant, shop, gym, and
              neighboring shopping mall (less than 50 meters away) all serve to
              make this motel & mall almost a village. Business Offices to bring
              in finances? Each room already has men & women telecommuting,
              conducting business every day. Add a few combined facilities, like
              day-care/school, government offices, and police/fire then it WOULD
              be a small city.


              What it eliminates are the many roads & wasteful commute between
              critical elements. Here you can walk everywhere needed for most
              daily necessities.


              That's not ecologically sound, nor self-contained, but multiply
              that motel in size by ten times, or more, then you begin to have the
              superstructure of an Arcology. I'm not sure where the mathematical
              critical mass of population & income would make building such a
              structure an Arcology, or even economical, but as an Engineer I know
              there should be a way to find out.

              Yes, ecologically sound practices SHOULD be initiated
              everywhere, not just in an encapsulated or otherwise isolated place
              like the artificial concept of an Arcology. Properly applied, a
              closed ecology could also be economically sound.


              From your signature, it reads like your business practices what
              you preach. For that you have my (our?) sincere congratulations!

              You're building 33, 88, and 54 units. You're doing well, and
              making a good profit.

              However: I still believe that Arcologies or other eco-friendly
              developments MUST be created in urban environments. Specifically I
              wanted to just say:

              BUILD ARCOLOGIES WITHIN ALREADY CROWDED CITIES.

              The greatest percentage of home & business development across both
              this nation, and the developing world, is currently set in chaotic &
              fundamentally unplanned urban & suburban sprawl. Most population
              concentrations & big cities are also built on the MOST ARABLE LAND.
              Suburbia eats farmland! For the greater good (not just individual
              sell outs), selling this land for suburban single-family homes does
              not make macro-economic or ecological sense.


              If you could find a way to get business zoned adjacent to homes,
              eliminate the oil-addicted automotive industry, at least from the
              internal Arcology infrastructure. After the infrastructure begins to
              become adequately populated, properly planned ecological practices
              will support themselves financially.


              That IS very good, but it's only a start. In the meantime, you
              are beaten by the popularity of one development in New York,
              Waikiki, or Las Vegas (or crappy motel on the edge of civilization
              in my case). Why is popularity important?

              Answer: Because the more people who adopt it, the greater the
              ecological impact. The whole planet is being damaged by massively
              inefficient urban & suburban systems. The solution to that is to
              give the most people the incentive to adopt eco-friendly development.

              To make it convenient & economical, such a mini Arcology would
              have to be built in the middle of crowded places; cities overrun
              with urban sprawl. Oh, you could build something like this,
              reclaiming the crumbling ports of Puget Sound, but clearing &
              purchasing land in city downtown is clearly prohibitive.

              Trump did it in several places, targeted at the wealthy (not the
              largest population base), and still managed to almost go bankrupt,
              not once, but many times.

              Even the smallest Arcology, say Trump Towers sized structure,
              would be relatively HUGE. How do you fit something huge, like that
              in any modern city?

              Katrina sized natural disasters like Hurricanes & Tsunamis
              clear ocean sides, and rearrange large population centers, clearing
              the way for something new. People still want to live there, they are
              willing to pay to rebuild, and return to live. Like I mentioned
              earlier, %90 of the worlds' population live oceanside, riverside, or
              near large bodies of water.


              To make the leap to an Arcology, a corporation could start in a
              developing nation. Madras India has one open-air market, where over
              200,000 people shop EVERY DAY. On foot, but also by moped,
              motorbike, or by auto-rickshaw [NONE of which have adequate
              pollution control devices!]. A 100-meter deep portion of that entire
              10 KM wide beach was wiped out by the huge Tsunami a few years ago.
              They're reset up their canvas & tin stalls, but no safe structure
              has been built to make it safer..

              Now imagine the same population in a hurricane proof & tsunami
              resistant Arcology. Hotels this size are made in Nevada, New York, &
              Hawaii every year. Superstructures, which could easily house condos,
              shops & offices, and still have those weather & sea resistant
              properties. Not in luxury, but better than the sprawling cinder
              block 3x3m sand-floored multi-family cells they're currently living
              in.

              So India cannot raise the development funds? [They could, by
              won't for political reasons best not brought up here.] OK, transport
              the same concept back to the shores of the Gulf of Mexico. From
              Miami to Pensacola, past New Orleans, and on down to Houston. There
              are more than sufficient funds to build Arcosanti sized units;
              structures the size Arcosanti was designed to be!
              It could be done, without consuming all of the land just in the
              ninth Ward of N.O. alone. Tie one end of such an Arcology into
              downtown, for convenience & access to the old town. Keep all of the
              land not covered by the Arcology open for a memorial garden.

              Currently most homeowners cannot afford demolition, hazmat
              disposal, AND reconstruction there using conventional methods. Most
              may not return in their lifetime, without a big (or smart) developer
              rebuilding large parts of their neighborhood infrastructure. An
              Arcology would take care of much of those needs, if only by
              eliminating long commutes between convenience, living, and business
              spaces.

              Want to keep the 'flavor' of New Orleans? Give them the option of
              ironwork dressing & fixtures, wide southern-style porches, and
              facing out over the public parks & gardens.

              Flood & Hurricane safety? Just make the bottom 3, 4, 5, or 6 meters
              tall an immense parking facility, giving plenty of pedestrian access
              also out to those same parks & gardens. Airflow would keep the
              structure overhead cool in summers; a mezzanine level just above
              that a great southern style pedestrian avenue.


              Having buyers in place before selling the Arcology? In New Orleans &
              Biloxi they already own the land individually. Convince most of the
              9th Ward absentee landowners alone to convert their properties to
              options on condos in the Arcology structure, and then sell another %
              10 (or more, for development revenue) of it in more condos, offices
              & shops. Get matching funds from local government & bond sales to
              shore those finances up. Double the volume of planned building of
              those core sales, then you have the start of a real Arcology. One
              that pays for itself, and can be built in our lifetime.


              --- In arcology@yahoogroups.com, Chris ScottHanson <chris@...> wrote:
              >
              > Kevin,
              >
              > I disagree.
            • anne tonks
              I have been watching this exchange about ownership and arcologies and want to chime in on the last part. I believe it would be possible to build out
              Message 6 of 23 , May 3 7:58 AM
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                I have been watching this exchange about ownership and
                arcologies and want to chime in on the last part.

                I believe it would be possible to "build out"
                Arcosanti by having alumni "build in" if they could
                "own" a piece of it. We have nearly 6000 alumni now
                and many have reached an age where they could afford
                to invest in arcosanti.

                I own two small apartment buildings in Seattle and am
                thinking of turning one of them into a cohousing
                condo.

                I would bet I could pre-sell that pretty easily. The
                issue for me is that would likely have a lower
                investment return by turning it to community than
                holding it for appreciation. And having worked with
                the development of a cohousing group--I also know the
                negotiation process would be a challenge!!!!! Much
                more than usual investment meetings.

                If you had an "ownership" plan for Arcosanti--I would
                bet a hefty sum of money (and I am not a betting
                person--and whoever takes up on the bet should be
                prepared to pay) that you could pre sell Arcosanti
                just to Alumni and then go on to build it.

                Arcosanti had a time share concept called La Loggia
                and made some beautiful brochures for it in the 80's.
                Dust that off, get paolo's permission (the only
                challenging part of the proposal) and we could sell
                that out with no problems whatsoever.

                ANYONE INTERESTED IN AN ARCOSANTI TIME SHARE PLEASE
                REPLY

                Anne


                --- Kevin Burgess <burgesskj@...> wrote:

                > Chris,
                > I'm not wrong, but then, neither are you.
                >
                > Yes, buying in, by selling units within a
                > nascent ecomunity
                > would help. Because of their sheer size, Arcologies
                > are
                > prohibitively costly startups.
                >
                > GO CONDO!
                >
                > Before that, much of the infrastructure would
                > still have to be
                > completed prior to such a purchase. If we build it,
                > they will come,
                > but we have to prove the concept first.
                >
                > You seem to be up in the relatively under
                > populated Northwest.
                > I'm also in a sparsely populated area, south of
                > Arcosanti, along the
                > Arizona border with Mexico.
                > Recently I updated the telecommunication system
                > in a small Motel,
                > with 150 rooms. Each room bigger than the space most
                > local Mexican-
                > American residents call 'home' nearby. Personally my
                > family desires
                > more room, but most individuals, or small families
                > here could be
                > very comfortable privatizing a space like this.
                >
                > It struck me how the motel bar, restaurant,
                > shop, gym, and
                > neighboring shopping mall (less than 50 meters away)
                > all serve to
                > make this motel & mall almost a village. Business
                > Offices to bring
                > in finances? Each room already has men & women
                > telecommuting,
                > conducting business every day. Add a few combined
                > facilities, like
                > day-care/school, government offices, and police/fire
                > then it WOULD
                > be a small city.
                >
                >
                > What it eliminates are the many roads & wasteful
                > commute between
                > critical elements. Here you can walk everywhere
                > needed for most
                > daily necessities.
                >
                >
                > That's not ecologically sound, nor
                > self-contained, but multiply
                > that motel in size by ten times, or more, then you
                > begin to have the
                > superstructure of an Arcology. I'm not sure where
                > the mathematical
                > critical mass of population & income would make
                > building such a
                > structure an Arcology, or even economical, but as an
                > Engineer I know
                > there should be a way to find out.
                >
                > Yes, ecologically sound practices SHOULD be
                > initiated
                > everywhere, not just in an encapsulated or otherwise
                > isolated place
                > like the artificial concept of an Arcology. Properly
                > applied, a
                > closed ecology could also be economically sound.
                >
                >
                > From your signature, it reads like your
                > business practices what
                > you preach. For that you have my (our?) sincere
                > congratulations!
                >
                > You're building 33, 88, and 54 units. You're
                > doing well, and
                > making a good profit.
                >
                > However: I still believe that Arcologies or other
                > eco-friendly
                > developments MUST be created in urban environments.
                > Specifically I
                > wanted to just say:
                >
                > BUILD ARCOLOGIES WITHIN ALREADY CROWDED CITIES.
                >
                > The greatest percentage of home & business
                > development across both
                > this nation, and the developing world, is currently
                > set in chaotic &
                > fundamentally unplanned urban & suburban sprawl.
                > Most population
                > concentrations & big cities are also built on the
                > MOST ARABLE LAND.
                > Suburbia eats farmland! For the greater good (not
                > just individual
                > sell outs), selling this land for suburban
                > single-family homes does
                > not make macro-economic or ecological sense.
                >
                >
                > If you could find a way to get business zoned
                > adjacent to homes,
                > eliminate the oil-addicted automotive industry, at
                > least from the
                > internal Arcology infrastructure. After the
                > infrastructure begins to
                > become adequately populated, properly planned
                > ecological practices
                > will support themselves financially.
                >
                >
                > That IS very good, but it's only a start. In
                > the meantime, you
                > are beaten by the popularity of one development in
                > New York,
                > Waikiki, or Las Vegas (or crappy motel on the edge
                > of civilization
                > in my case). Why is popularity important?
                >
                > Answer: Because the more people who adopt it, the
                > greater the
                > ecological impact. The whole planet is being damaged
                > by massively
                > inefficient urban & suburban systems. The solution
                > to that is to
                > give the most people the incentive to adopt
                > eco-friendly development.
                >
                > To make it convenient & economical, such a mini
                > Arcology would
                > have to be built in the middle of crowded places;
                > cities overrun
                > with urban sprawl. Oh, you could build something
                > like this,
                > reclaiming the crumbling ports of Puget Sound, but
                > clearing &
                > purchasing land in city downtown is clearly
                > prohibitive.
                >
                > Trump did it in several places, targeted at the
                > wealthy (not the
                > largest population base), and still managed to
                > almost go bankrupt,
                > not once, but many times.
                >
                > Even the smallest Arcology, say Trump Towers
                > sized structure,
                > would be relatively HUGE. How do you fit something
                > huge, like that
                > in any modern city?
                >
                > Katrina sized natural disasters like
                > Hurricanes & Tsunamis
                > clear ocean sides, and rearrange large population
                > centers, clearing
                > the way for something new. People still want to live
                > there, they are
                > willing to pay to rebuild, and return to live. Like
                > I mentioned
                > earlier, %90 of the worlds' population live
                > oceanside, riverside, or
                > near large bodies of water.
                >
                >
                > To make the leap to an Arcology, a corporation
                > could start in a
                > developing nation. Madras India has one open-air
                > market, where over
                > 200,000 people shop EVERY DAY. On foot, but also by
                > moped,
                > motorbike, or by auto-rickshaw [NONE of which have
                > adequate
                > pollution control devices!]. A 100-meter deep
                > portion of that entire
                > 10 KM wide beach was wiped out by the huge Tsunami a
                > few years ago.
                > They're reset up their canvas & tin stalls, but no
                > safe structure
                > has been built to make it safer..
                >
                > Now imagine the same population in a hurricane
                > proof & tsunami
                > resistant Arcology. Hotels this size are made in
                > Nevada, New York, &
                > Hawaii every year. Superstructures, which could
                > easily house condos,
                > shops & offices, and still have those weather & sea
                > resistant
                > properties. Not in luxury, but better than the
                > sprawling cinder
                > block 3x3m sand-floored multi-family cells they're
                > currently living
                > in.
                >
                >
                === message truncated ===
              • jeff buderer
                Anne, Very good idea. It is encouraging to see some practical thinking here about ways to develop Arcology themed projects. What you suggest is one way forward
                Message 7 of 23 , May 5 2:22 PM
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                  Anne,

                   

                  Very good idea.

                   

                  It is encouraging to see some practical thinking here about ways to develop Arcology themed projects.

                   

                  What you suggest is one way forward on how our networks resources could be leveraged to move forward on such a plan.

                • Chris ScottHanson
                  I would buy in, if there was real ownership possible. Chris
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 7 2:08 PM
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                    I would buy in, if there was real ownership possible.

                    Chris


                    On May 3, 2007, at 7:58 AM, anne tonks wrote:

                    ANYONE INTERESTED IN AN ARCOSANTI TIME SHARE PLEASE
                    REPLY

                  • anne tonks
                    Hi Chris: I am going to Arcosanti on the 3rd for 2 weeks and I ll talk to Paolo about it. Have you seen the plans for La Loggia? The brochure is beautiful.
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 7 11:36 PM
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                      Hi Chris:

                      I am going to Arcosanti on the 3rd for 2 weeks and
                      I'll talk to Paolo about it. Have you seen the plans
                      for La Loggia? The brochure is beautiful. It's
                      basically the guest rooms raised to 3 or 4 levels and
                      sold on a time share basis.

                      They never got further than the brochure--but I have
                      no doubt we could sell all the shares if there was
                      ownership and something that could be sold again later
                      or passed to our children.

                      AND MARK YOUR CALENDAR. TODAY I MADE A RESERVATION
                      FOR GASWORKS PARK FOR TWO TABLES WITH GRILLS FOR
                      SATURDAY, JULY 28TH for another Alumni picnic.

                      Last year was fun and while I am at Arcosanti, I will
                      use my evening time to get out some info to people and
                      will e-mail my list from last year in the next few
                      days.

                      Anne

                      PS, if you want--I'll try and scan and fax you a La
                      Loggia brochure while I am at Arcosanti.
                      --- Chris ScottHanson <chris@...>
                      wrote:

                      > I would buy in, if there was real ownership
                      > possible.
                      >
                      > Chris
                      >
                      >
                      > On May 3, 2007, at 7:58 AM, anne tonks wrote:
                      >
                      > > ANYONE INTERESTED IN AN ARCOSANTI TIME SHARE
                      > PLEASE
                      > > REPLY
                      >
                      >
                    • Kevin Burgess
                      Anne, I live within 3 hours drive of Arcosanti now. It would be nice to visit there with someone who knows a little more about the inner workings of our
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 9 1:02 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Anne,
                        I live within 3 hours drive of Arcosanti now.
                        It would be nice to visit there with someone who knows
                        a little more about the inner workings of our favorite
                        arcology.
                        Would you be interested in meeting up one weekend?
                        I wouldn't expect to meet Paolo, but discussing my
                        favorite architecture in person with someone who cares
                        as passionately would be nice.

                        That would also be very nice if you could
                        convince Paolo to open Arcosanti for time shares or
                        even just condos. I won't be retiring for another 20
                        years, but I've already waited 30 years to see the
                        fruits of a real arcology, and now is not too late.

                        Any reasonable architect surely hates the rabble
                        who are the majority of most time share developments.
                        When I think of the shear crap that has been pitched
                        to me (trailer parks & golf course parks) over the
                        years, and those make me physically ill.
                        Do I own a time share already? Yes, and I've even
                        visited it once... but I got it to make travelling
                        around the country & really visiting different regions
                        possible, but I would never want to live there. Seeing
                        the condition of those who do settle in most horrifies
                        me.
                        No, it's not the personalities of owners, but of
                        the kitsch & crap architecture & poor engineering that
                        goes into most developments.
                        Most TS developments are wasteful of all resources.

                        ...Now just imagine what those same funds &
                        resources could put into even a small Arcology...

                        Such a cash investment infusion could easily bring
                        an arcology to critical mass, rendering it
                        self-sustainable.

                        Kevin



                        __________________________________________________
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                      • jeff@onevillagefoundation.org
                        Anne, I appreciate your efforts. If you have a chance please do link up with Nadia Begin and David Tollas two long time friends and former coworkers of mine
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 23 5:14 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Anne,

                          I appreciate your efforts.

                          If you have a chance please do link up with Nadia Begin and David Tollas two
                          long time friends and former coworkers of mine from my Arco days. Nadia as
                          planning director worked with Paolo for several years while was David
                          construction manager.

                          Jeff

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: arcology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of anne tonks
                          Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:36 AM
                          To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [arcology] Re:It's about Ownership

                          Hi Chris:

                          I am going to Arcosanti on the 3rd for 2 weeks and
                          I'll talk to Paolo about it. Have you seen the plans
                          for La Loggia? The brochure is beautiful. It's
                          basically the guest rooms raised to 3 or 4 levels and
                          sold on a time share basis.

                          They never got further than the brochure--but I have
                          no doubt we could sell all the shares if there was
                          ownership and something that could be sold again later
                          or passed to our children.

                          AND MARK YOUR CALENDAR. TODAY I MADE A RESERVATION
                          FOR GASWORKS PARK FOR TWO TABLES WITH GRILLS FOR
                          SATURDAY, JULY 28TH for another Alumni picnic.

                          Last year was fun and while I am at Arcosanti, I will
                          use my evening time to get out some info to people and
                          will e-mail my list from last year in the next few
                          days.

                          Anne

                          PS, if you want--I'll try and scan and fax you a La
                          Loggia brochure while I am at Arcosanti.
                          --- Chris ScottHanson <chris@cohousingreso
                          <mailto:chris%40cohousingresources.com> urces.com>
                          wrote:

                          > I would buy in, if there was real ownership
                          > possible.
                          >
                          > Chris
                          >
                          >
                          > On May 3, 2007, at 7:58 AM, anne tonks wrote:
                          >
                          > > ANYONE INTERESTED IN AN ARCOSANTI TIME SHARE
                          > PLEASE
                          > > REPLY
                          >
                          >
                        • Dan Keram
                          Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will to continue construction, or is the East Crescent the end of it all?
                             
                            Dan Keram


                            Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
                          • Jeff Buderer
                            Dan, I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 6, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Dan,

                               

                              I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to shift to consider such ideas and how they can be practically incorporated into the project.


                              (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

                            • Chris ScottHanson
                              In my opinion there is plenty available to sell at Arcosanti now. Just what s there now is the start that would change the entire dynamic. The new
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 7, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In my opinion there is plenty available to sell at Arcosanti now.  Just what's there now is the start that would change the entire dynamic.  The new "homeowners" would be owners, not just visitors, and would make a HUGE difference in the way the place feels and operates.

                                A strange idea would suddenly begin to feel like a strange reality.

                                There are lots and lots of us baby boomers out there, many of us alum., with some money to put where are hearts are.

                                Chris ScottHanson


                                On Jun 6, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Jeff Buderer wrote:


                                Dan,

                                 

                                I think I understand what you are saying but Its not about how big Arcosanti is but rather how the mindset of the people that run the project is able to shift to consider such ideas and how they can be practically incorporated into the project.

                                 

                                My understanding is that until money is raised to pave the road going into Arcosantithat the project will not be able to add any additional large buildings.

                                 

                                If you check the daily progress you will see things are proceeding at reasonable pace given the limited resources of the project. What done in EC phase IV looks good and Dave Tollas is now overseeing a team in refurbishing the entrance area into the Crafts III and so that is very much needed.

                                 

                                I recall Anne Tonks had said she was going to Arcosanti in May I recall. I am wondering if she has a progress report for us.

                                 

                                Jeff

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: arcology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arcology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Keram
                                Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 12:16 PM
                                To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership

                                 

                                Timesharing, ownershipping, renting.....all are great ideas but until more is built at Arcosanti it aint gonna happen. Does anybody know if there is ANY will to continue construction, or is the East Crescent the end of it all?

                                 

                                Dan Keram

                              • Dan Keram
                                yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 8, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
                                   
                                  Dan Keram


                                  Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
                                • Chris ScottHanson
                                  I don t know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 8, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I don't know Mary and Tomiaki.  Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom.  Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne?  Sounds like the middle ages, before the private ownership of land?   When the non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into the new world of ownership and out of the world of serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti.
                                     
                                    Do you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS market?  42% or more of the population is the last number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked into it.)

                                    Has anyone done the demographics on the list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages.  I will bet that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer to 80%, or maybe even higher.

                                    The earliest Arco Alums start in 1970,  including some I know of reading this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)  I happened to be there in '81.  Last I heard the alum numbers were up over 6000.  Anyone know an update?

                                    Are there buyers out there?  YES!

                                    Does it matter what Mary or Tomiaki think?  I don't know.  But maybe it should matter to them.


                                    Chris



                                     
                                    On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:


                                    yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
                                     
                                    Dan Keram

                                    .
                                    ,_._,___

                                  • Jeff Buderer
                                    Chris, What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti they basically hit the target in terms of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 10, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Chris,

                                      What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti they basically hit the target in terms of explaining the gist of the situation.

                                      Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an opportunity within our networks to invest in something based on the thinking that has brought us here but more in line with what you put forward below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti admin people are reluctant to embrace.

                                      I would like to hear more about your experiences in the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from that to develop a practical model for developing small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic starting point for their scaling and replication that is based on a understanding of what it takes to grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.

                                      In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the financial and volunteer support of the alumni but conflicting with that a concern that with that would lead to a desire to have a role in the development of the project.

                                      Jeff


                                      From: Chris ScottHanson <chris@...>
                                      Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                                      To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership


                                      I don't know Mary and Tomiaki.  Do they now hold the keys to the Arcosanti kingdom.  Are they the heirs to the Soleri throne?  Sounds like the middle ages, before the private ownership of land?   When the non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into the new world of ownership and out of the world of serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti.

                                       
                                      Do you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS market?  42% or more of the population is the last number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked into it.)

                                      Has anyone done the demographics on the list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages.  I will bet that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer to 80%, or maybe even higher.

                                      The earliest Arco Alums start in 1970,  including some I know of reading this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)  I happened to be there in '81.  Last I heard the alum numbers were up over 6000.  Anyone know an update?

                                      Are there buyers out there?  YES!

                                      Does it matter what Mary or Tomiaki think?  I don't know.  But maybe it should matter to them.


                                      Chris



                                       
                                      On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:


                                      yeah, yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki, do you think they will really be accepting of Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares?
                                       
                                      Dan Keram

                                      .
                                      ,_._,___


                                    • anne tonks
                                      Hi All Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice time. Chris wanted to know about the age
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 10, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi All

                                        Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the
                                        juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice
                                        time.

                                        Chris wanted to know about the age distribution of
                                        arcosanti alums and/or interested parties.

                                        The average age of an arcosanti alumni is now about 47
                                        years of age. That is all alumni from 1970 thru 2005.

                                        Definitely a group that could go somewhere and build
                                        something if they wanted to do so.--although some
                                        still have to get the kids through college!!!!

                                        There is a town/city for 36000 people under
                                        development about 25 miles south of Hoover Dam on us
                                        93. It's called the Ranch at White Hills. All the
                                        property was purchased by a man named Leonard Mardian
                                        who is a wealthy las vegas/southern california
                                        developer but now in his late 60's is interested in
                                        more ecologically sensitive development. Perhaps he
                                        has a sort of legacy in mind--but not sure of that--I
                                        also suspect he will make a ton of money as well.

                                        My cousin Elno Roundy who lives in Kingman is the
                                        Project Manager for the project.

                                        I know they plan to have nothing more than 10 minutes
                                        walk from most needed services.

                                        The biggest hitch in this scheme is the lack of
                                        employment opportunities. I believe one of the
                                        reasons it is situated as it is is a combination of
                                        several huge pieces of property for sale AND MORE
                                        IMPORTANTLY A NEW BRIDGE IN FRONT OF HOOVER DAM
                                        WCHEDULED FOR COMPLETION NEXT YEAR which makes it less
                                        than an hour from las vegas.

                                        I drove by the site on my way to Arcosanti and I think
                                        the trailer crowd is planning to use that type of
                                        housing for their residences (not totally so--some are
                                        manufactured homes and look traditional. But most
                                        property is not yet for sale Iexcept as 5 or so acres
                                        parcels) since the city plan has conceptually been
                                        approved but last I heard the final wasn't.

                                        So, if someone wanted to go down there and start an
                                        arcology--it might be affordable land (and some land
                                        up toward the back of the property away from the road
                                        is just plumb full of joshua trees and quite
                                        beautiful).

                                        Check it out at http://theranchatwhitehills.com/

                                        I just googled to see what was available. Here is
                                        something quote unquote "nearby" which is 100 acres
                                        for $899,000.

                                        http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/ProfileSE.aspx?LID=14580651&linkcode=10850&sourcecode=1lww2t006a00001

                                        They do have 100 year supply of water at white hills
                                        which was required to get the original permits. In
                                        fact that is how my cousin got involved as he is an
                                        expert on water in the desert and actually
                                        experimented, supervised drilling and verified the
                                        water supply in an aquifer. He has some plans which
                                        he thinks will provide for a constant supply of water
                                        for perpetuity having to do with harvesting of rain
                                        water in specific ways so that instead of running off
                                        or evaporating about half of it ends up back in the
                                        acquifer.

                                        Maybe not an architecturally elegant and visually
                                        beautiful development--but one that might actually
                                        happen!!!!

                                        If you look into it let me know what you think. I'm
                                        having lunch with my cousin who is involved in this
                                        project next week-end and will have some more info
                                        after that if anyone is interested!!!

                                        Anne


                                        --- Jeff Buderer <jeff@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > Chris,
                                        >
                                        > What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a
                                        > lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti
                                        > they basically hit the target in terms of explaining
                                        > the gist of the situation.
                                        >
                                        > Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or
                                        > does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an
                                        > opportunity within our networks to invest in
                                        > something based on the thinking that has brought us
                                        > here but more in line with what you put forward
                                        > below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti
                                        > admin people are reluctant to embrace.
                                        >
                                        > I would like to hear more about your experiences in
                                        > the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from
                                        > that to develop a practical model for developing
                                        > small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I
                                        > think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so
                                        > unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic
                                        > starting point for their scaling and replication
                                        > that is based on a understanding of what it takes to
                                        > grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.
                                        >
                                        > In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to
                                        > update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned
                                        > such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may
                                        > actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the
                                        > financial and volunteer support of the alumni but
                                        > conflicting with that a concern that with that would
                                        > lead to a desire to have a role in the development
                                        > of the project.
                                        >
                                        > Jeff
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------
                                        > From: Chris ScottHanson
                                        > <chris@...>
                                        > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                                        > To: arcology@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership
                                        >
                                        > I don't know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the
                                        > keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs
                                        > to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
                                        > before the private ownership of land? When the
                                        > non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into
                                        > the new world of ownership and out of the world of
                                        > serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti. Do
                                        > you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS
                                        > market? 42% or more of the population is the last
                                        > number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked
                                        > into it.)Has anyone done the demographics on the
                                        > list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages. I will bet
                                        > that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer
                                        > to 80%, or maybe even higher.The earliest Arco Alums
                                        > start in 1970, including some I know of reading
                                        > this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested
                                        > women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)
                                        > I happened to be there in '81. Last I heard the
                                        > alum numbers were up over 6000. Anyone know an
                                        > update?Are there buyers out there? YES!Does it
                                        > matter what Mary or Tomiaki think? I don't know.
                                        > But maybe it should matter to them.Chris
                                        > On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:yeah,
                                        > yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered
                                        > though......and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki,
                                        > do you think they will really be accepting of
                                        > Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares? Dan
                                        > Keram.,_._,___
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Jeff Buderer
                                        Anne, Thanks for that report. I had a chance to check out your Cousin s project and I have to say that it would be great to hear more about the ecological
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 11, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Anne,

                                          Thanks for that report. I had a chance to check out your Cousin's project and I have to say that it would be great to hear more about the "ecological features of the site" because I saw nothing about it on the website.

                                          I did see that there has been a delay in the megafreeway planned to bypass Hoover Dam and reduce travel times by 1/2 hour to 45 min (@80+ miles a hour) to LV from the planned development area. I was bit shocked at the scale of the development. It is planned to have over 60k of single family homes and that means even with contemporary houses being relative sparse at 2.3 people per houses you are talking about a 100000 plus people development definitely ranking up there with the planned city of Anthem by the Mega Sprawl Builder Del Webb http://www.delwebb.com/anthemarizona/.

                                          Now I recall living at Arcosanti and seeing the urban sprawl creep closer to us Anthem was a big step in that direction. The glare of Pheonix actually affected the night sky but of course it is unlikely that Arcosanti will ever be surrounded by suburbia. However careful thought should be given before investing in a project whose neighbors might reflect the worst excesses of suburban sprawl. Often an Arcology themed project could also serve as a role model as well and possibly if presented properly to the real estate mangate could actually be an opportunity for him to consider his legacy a bit...

                                          Indeed it was Soleri's sense of being overrun by Pheonix sprawl that led him to escape 70 miles north to establish Arcosanti.

                                          Jeff

                                          Hi All

                                          Greetings from Arcosanti where tonight we finished the
                                          juneteenth jazz week end. Beautiful weather. Nice
                                          time.

                                          Chris wanted to know about the age distribution of
                                          arcosanti alums and/or interested parties.

                                          The average age of an arcosanti alumni is now about 47
                                          years of age. That is all alumni from 1970 thru 2005.

                                          Definitely a group that could go somewhere and build
                                          something if they wanted to do so.--although some
                                          still have to get the kids through college!!!!

                                          There is a town/city for 36000 people under
                                          development about 25 miles south of Hoover Dam on us
                                          93. It's called the Ranch at White Hills. All the
                                          property was purchased by a man named Leonard Mardian
                                          who is a wealthy las vegas/southern california
                                          developer but now in his late 60's is interested in
                                          more ecologically sensitive development. Perhaps he
                                          has a sort of legacy in mind--but not sure of that--I
                                          also suspect he will make a ton of money as well.

                                          My cousin Elno Roundy who lives in Kingman is the
                                          Project Manager for the project.

                                          I know they plan to have nothing more than 10 minutes
                                          walk from most needed services.

                                          The biggest hitch in this scheme is the lack of
                                          employment opportunities. I believe one of the
                                          reasons it is situated as it is is a combination of
                                          several huge pieces of property for sale AND MORE
                                          IMPORTANTLY A NEW BRIDGE IN FRONT OF HOOVER DAM
                                          WCHEDULED FOR COMPLETION NEXT YEAR which makes it less
                                          than an hour from las vegas.

                                          I drove by the site on my way to Arcosanti and I think
                                          the trailer crowd is planning to use that type of
                                          housing for their residences (not totally so--some are
                                          manufactured homes and look traditional. But most
                                          property is not yet for sale Iexcept as 5 or so acres
                                          parcels) since the city plan has conceptually been
                                          approved but last I heard the final wasn't.

                                          So, if someone wanted to go down there and start an
                                          arcology--it might be affordable land (and some land
                                          up toward the back of the property away from the road
                                          is just plumb full of joshua trees and quite
                                          beautiful).

                                          Check it out at http://theranchatwh itehills. com/

                                          I just googled to see what was available. Here is
                                          something quote unquote "nearby" which is 100 acres
                                          for $899,000.

                                          http://www.loopnet. com/xNet/ MainSite/ Listing/Profile/ ProfileSE. aspx?LID= 14580651& linkcode= 10850&sourcecode =1lww2t006a00001

                                          They do have 100 year supply of water at white hills
                                          which was required to get the original permits. In
                                          fact that is how my cousin got involved as he is an
                                          expert on water in the desert and actually
                                          experimented, supervised drilling and verified the
                                          water supply in an aquifer. He has some plans which
                                          he thinks will provide for a constant supply of water
                                          for perpetuity having to do with harvesting of rain
                                          water in specific ways so that instead of running off
                                          or evaporating about half of it ends up back in the
                                          acquifer.

                                          Maybe not an architecturally elegant and visually
                                          beautiful development- -but one that might actually
                                          happen!!!!

                                          If you look into it let me know what you think. I'm
                                          having lunch with my cousin who is involved in this
                                          project next week-end and will have some more info
                                          after that if anyone is interested!! !

                                          Anne

                                          --- Jeff Buderer <jeff@onevillagefoun dation.org>
                                          wrote:

                                          > Chris,
                                          >
                                          > What colorful and bluntly honest comments! And for a
                                          > lot of people that have been involved in Arcosanti
                                          > they basically hit the target in terms of explaining
                                          > the gist of the situation.
                                          >
                                          > Maybe we should not be so dependent on what does or
                                          > does not happen at Arcosanti but rather create an
                                          > opportunity within our networks to invest in
                                          > something based on the thinking that has brought us
                                          > here but more in line with what you put forward
                                          > below which it does seem that the current Arcosanti
                                          > admin people are reluctant to embrace.
                                          >
                                          > I would like to hear more about your experiences in
                                          > the Cohousing movement and how we might learn from
                                          > that to develop a practical model for developing
                                          > small and human scale Arcologies to start out. I
                                          > think part of the issue that makes Arcologies so
                                          > unrealistic a cocnept is there is not realistic
                                          > starting point for their scaling and replication
                                          > that is based on a understanding of what it takes to
                                          > grow a sustainable socioeconomic system.
                                          >
                                          > In terms of updates there is not a mechanism to
                                          > update people those 6000 or so alumni you mentioned
                                          > such as newsletter. Part of the reason for this may
                                          > actually be an ambivilence in terms of wanting the
                                          > financial and volunteer support of the alumni but
                                          > conflicting with that a concern that with that would
                                          > lead to a desire to have a role in the development
                                          > of the project.
                                          >
                                          > Jeff
                                          >
                                          > ------------ --------- --------- --------- -
                                          > From: Chris ScottHanson
                                          > <chris@cohousingreso urces.com>
                                          > Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:41 PM
                                          > To: arcology@yahoogroup s.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [arcology] Re: It's about Ownership
                                          >
                                          > I don't know Mary and Tomiaki. Do they now hold the
                                          > keys to the Arcosanti kingdom. Are they the heirs
                                          > to the Soleri throne? Sounds like the middle ages,
                                          > before the private ownership of land? When the
                                          > non-profit that owns Arcosanti is ready to come into
                                          > the new world of ownership and out of the world of
                                          > serfdom, we might get somewhere with Arcosanti. Do
                                          > you know much about cultural creatives or the LOHAS
                                          > market? 42% or more of the population is the last
                                          > number I heard. (Google LOHAS if you haven't looked
                                          > into it.)Has anyone done the demographics on the
                                          > list of Arco Alumni, starting with ages. I will bet
                                          > that the LOHAS segment of the Acro Alums is closer
                                          > to 80%, or maybe even higher.The earliest Arco Alums
                                          > start in 1970, including some I know of reading
                                          > this list now. (I heard stories about bare chested
                                          > women clearing the road, from a woman who was there)
                                          > I happened to be there in '81. Last I heard the
                                          > alum numbers were up over 6000. Anyone know an
                                          > update?Are there buyers out there? YES!Does it
                                          > matter what Mary or Tomiaki think? I don't know.
                                          > But maybe it should matter to them.Chris
                                          > On Jun 8, 2007, at 8:32 AM, Dan Keram wrote:yeah,
                                          > yeah, yeah. My question is yet to be answered
                                          > though...... and Chris, if you know Mary and Tomiaki,
                                          > do you think they will really be accepting of
                                          > Landrover and Prius types buying timeshares? Dan
                                          > Keram.,_._,_ __


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