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[arcology] Arcology plans!

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  • Alan Grimes
    Okay, I ve pulled out my musty old books and have begun researching the incantations for conjuring an arcology into existance. I gather it has to do with
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 26, 1999
      Okay, I've pulled out my musty old books and have begun researching the
      incantations for conjuring an arcology into existance. I gather it has to do
      with drawing a pentagram on the floor of your attic and setting up candles just
      so... just kidding... =P

      I have come up with a fairly complete if not detailed orgainizational chart
      the timing needs to be worked on but the basic tasks are listed. The chart
      includes a number of concurrent sequences. I will do my best to express them
      here. (they were concieved as a bunch of squiggles on a sheet of paper).

      The first step in this ill-concieved plan is to create a Limited Liability
      Company called the "[first] DC Metro Area Arcology Company". This company will
      operate under a budget of approximately 70 million dollars. Its only function
      will be to coordinate, facilitate, and catalyze all the activities of arcology
      construction. It will also have authority over the final design.

      //////////////// POLITICAL SEQUENCE //////////////////////////

      We must first gain the approval of the local and state governments to procede
      with the proposed plan to 'doze such a large ammount of realestate and create
      such a large structure and establish a new government within it.

      Secondly we must convene an "Arcology Chartering Convention". This body will
      preform the same task of the constitutional convention did for the US. It will
      create a charter for the arcology such as " the planning commission will be
      composed of 4 delegates from the residential sectors and two from the corporate
      sector.

      This charter will also cover the collection of rent, the payment of taxes, and
      the varrious services that will be provided by the arcology such as the
      "whitecar service" (free usage of cars maintained by the arcology).

      ///////////////// DESIGN SEQUENCE ////////////////////////////

      First we need to recruit a few realestate developers to help us with the
      acquisition of nearly a billion dollars of property. =\

      Second we need to fund an engineering effort to design the place.

      Third we need architects to develop allocation sollutions to turn the empty
      spaces provided by the engineers into appealing living spaces that people would
      actually pay for. (they would pay for the space and then finish it themselves.)

      ///////////////// Public support sequence ///////////////////

      Well we need to keep the people happy. To do that we must make them not only
      understand but BELIEVE that the arcology is the best thing since the floppy
      disk. This will include the creation of informative videos, free trips to
      arcosanti, first dibs on free space in the arco for current residents of the
      area... Basically we will employ everything that has been done to sell something
      to someones...

      ////////////////// $ //////////////////////////////

      First we will need to establish a trust fund for collecting building material$.

      Its all in the deal.
      The first arcology, the city of the future, would be a great magnet for
      commercial sponsorships. We can use that!

      We can offer deals such as this: Okay, zoomsys, Give us 8igabyte fiber optic
      connections to each unit in the structure and we'll let you charge a maximum of
      20% over your operating costs. This kind of deal should be workable for many of
      the services the arcology needs. At some later date competition will be allowed
      in. In the mean time the contract will be overseen by the planning commission.

      /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      The final step is to disolve the DC Metro Area Arcology Company and convene the
      first meeting of the Arcology Planning Commission. =)

      Well that's it for my sheet of paper! =)


      Anyway I have come up with a few designs such as the tetrahedron one mentioned
      below and can describe them conceptually but I really need someone who knows
      his/er way around a CAD or drawing board to put them on paper/foamboard. =]

      Here is a map of the areas my county government wants to develop or re-develop.
      =) Make note of the boxy area on the right of the map.
      The orrigional blueprint for Washington DC had it extending over the river into
      VA. (arlington county), home of the aforementioned Crystal City. The major
      interstate, I-495 is the "capital betltway" we want to be inside that or easily
      accessable to it. Also note Metro stopps, there is one in merrifield. I live
      very near the map of McLean. I never saw it as a re-development zone though. =P
      If I had a digikam I could snap the map... I had a job at a tire place at about
      the center of that mclean map... =\ DOZE IT!!! =P or how about 'dozing the
      merrifield map of the place where my first car got totaled! nah, In order to
      maximize my chances of building this arcology I can't have any prefferences
      towards or against any area in the region. Notice the design on the (again
      McLean map) almost suggests a tetrahedronal arco.... That is another issue, we
      can't just do the SimCity thing and dup the same arco again and again, we have
      to taylor it to the terrain, and things are rarely tiled neatly. I'll discuss
      what I know about the various features on the map and later do intensive surveys
      of the areas as this project *may* get off the ground.

      [map referred to above]
      http://www.fairfax.va.us/gov/ocp/RevitMapLarge.htm

      This is the Metro Washington Council of Gubbernments.
      http://www.mwcog.org/


      --
      See ya in the stone age! =P (hopefully/probably not)

      users.erols.com/alangrimes/
    • Ruth-Claire Weintraub
      OK, I d like to see you apply this plan to Mayer/Cordes Junction, Arizona, which would result in getting Arcosanti constructed. RC
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 26, 1999
        OK, I'd like to see you apply this plan to Mayer/Cordes Junction, Arizona,
        which would result in getting Arcosanti constructed. RC

        >Okay, I've pulled out my musty old books and have begun researching the
        >incantations for conjuring an arcology into existance. I gather it has to do
        >with drawing a pentagram on the floor of your attic and setting up candles
        >just
        >so... just kidding... =P
        >
        > I have come up with a fairly complete if not detailed
        >orgainizational chart
        >the timing needs to be worked on but the basic tasks are listed. The chart
        >includes a number of concurrent sequences. I will do my best to express them
        >here. (they were concieved as a bunch of squiggles on a sheet of paper).
        >
        >The first step in this ill-concieved plan is to create a Limited Liability
        >Company called the "[first] DC Metro Area Arcology Company". This company will
        >operate under a budget of approximately 70 million dollars. Its only function
        >will be to coordinate, facilitate, and catalyze all the activities of arcology
        >construction. It will also have authority over the final design.
        >
        >//////////////// POLITICAL SEQUENCE //////////////////////////
        >
        >We must first gain the approval of the local and state governments to procede
        >with the proposed plan to 'doze such a large ammount of realestate and create
        >such a large structure and establish a new government within it.
        >
        >Secondly we must convene an "Arcology Chartering Convention". This body will
        >preform the same task of the constitutional convention did for the US. It will
        >create a charter for the arcology such as " the planning commission will be
        >composed of 4 delegates from the residential sectors and two from the
        >corporate
        >sector.
        >
        >This charter will also cover the collection of rent, the payment of taxes, and
        >the varrious services that will be provided by the arcology such as the
        >"whitecar service" (free usage of cars maintained by the arcology).
        >
        >///////////////// DESIGN SEQUENCE ////////////////////////////
        >
        >First we need to recruit a few realestate developers to help us with the
        >acquisition of nearly a billion dollars of property. =\
        >
        >Second we need to fund an engineering effort to design the place.
        >
        >Third we need architects to develop allocation sollutions to turn the empty
        >spaces provided by the engineers into appealing living spaces that people
        >would
        >actually pay for. (they would pay for the space and then finish it
        >themselves.)
        >
        >///////////////// Public support sequence ///////////////////
        >
        >Well we need to keep the people happy. To do that we must make them not only
        >understand but BELIEVE that the arcology is the best thing since the floppy
        >disk. This will include the creation of informative videos, free trips to
        >arcosanti, first dibs on free space in the arco for current residents of the
        >area... Basically we will employ everything that has been done to sell
        >something
        >to someones...
        >
        >////////////////// $ //////////////////////////////
        >
        >First we will need to establish a trust fund for collecting building
        >material$.
        >
        >Its all in the deal.
        >The first arcology, the city of the future, would be a great magnet for
        >commercial sponsorships. We can use that!
        >
        >We can offer deals such as this: Okay, zoomsys, Give us 8igabyte fiber optic
        >connections to each unit in the structure and we'll let you charge a
        >maximum of
        >20% over your operating costs. This kind of deal should be workable for
        >many of
        >the services the arcology needs. At some later date competition will be
        >allowed
        >in. In the mean time the contract will be overseen by the planning
        >commission.
        >
        >/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
        >
        >The final step is to disolve the DC Metro Area Arcology Company and
        >convene the
        >first meeting of the Arcology Planning Commission. =)
        >
        >Well that's it for my sheet of paper! =)
        >
        >
        >Anyway I have come up with a few designs such as the tetrahedron one mentioned
        >below and can describe them conceptually but I really need someone who knows
        >his/er way around a CAD or drawing board to put them on paper/foamboard. =]
        >
        >Here is a map of the areas my county government wants to develop or
        >re-develop.
        >=) Make note of the boxy area on the right of the map.
        >The orrigional blueprint for Washington DC had it extending over the river
        >into
        >VA. (arlington county), home of the aforementioned Crystal City. The major
        >interstate, I-495 is the "capital betltway" we want to be inside that or
        >easily
        >accessable to it. Also note Metro stopps, there is one in merrifield. I live
        >very near the map of McLean. I never saw it as a re-development zone
        >though. =P
        > If I had a digikam I could snap the map... I had a job at a tire
        >place at about
        >the center of that mclean map... =\ DOZE IT!!! =P or how about 'dozing the
        >merrifield map of the place where my first car got totaled! nah, In order to
        >maximize my chances of building this arcology I can't have any prefferences
        >towards or against any area in the region. Notice the design on the (again
        >McLean map) almost suggests a tetrahedronal arco.... That is another issue, we
        >can't just do the SimCity thing and dup the same arco again and again, we have
        >to taylor it to the terrain, and things are rarely tiled neatly. I'll discuss
        >what I know about the various features on the map and later do intensive
        >surveys
        >of the areas as this project *may* get off the ground.
        >
        >[map referred to above]
        >http://www.fairfax.va.us/gov/ocp/RevitMapLarge.htm
        >
        >This is the Metro Washington Council of Gubbernments.
        >http://www.mwcog.org/
        >
        >
        >--
        >See ya in the stone age! =P (hopefully/probably not)
        >
        >users.erols.com/alangrimes/
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      • Ruth-Claire Weintraub
        The point of completing Arcosanti is to ensure that the work of Dr. Paolo Soleri, who coined the word arcology (perhaps before you were born?) can continue
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 26, 1999
          The point of "completing" Arcosanti is to ensure that the work of Dr. Paolo
          Soleri, who coined the word "arcology" (perhaps before you were born?) can
          continue to be the extraordinary learning place that it is despite people
          who fail to see how it is that. A monastery it definitely is NOT. I
          wouldn't disagree with "academic retreat" or a variation of that, perhaps,
          but "monastery" I find absurd. Sorry.

          It is located where it is because the land was available when we set out
          looking for a site on which it would be possible to build (at a scale
          larger than had been possible at Cosanti). "Bland" is not a word I have
          ever heard anyone use to describe it before. Frankly, I don't think you
          will make first cut on the architectural critic list with it.

          Arcosanti has grown ever-so-modestly for near 30 years by virtue of the
          fact that a) people are hungry for beauty (handcraft is not such a terrible
          business to promote, is it?) and b) people do continue to volunteer labor
          for a cause that seems "virtuous." Thank goodness.

          Whatever your complaints about it as an architectural work (Safdie's is
          Soleri's "unusual vocabulary of form") to call it "bland" is just beyond
          me. What on earth would you compare it to?

          Your scheme to put an "arcology fund" together is cute and I'd love to see
          you go ahead with it, but if you can't put together just the modest sums it
          will take to get the "laboratory," say, 99% complete, how the heck will you
          convince people they should expend their vast fortunes on the "real" thing?


          Please advise. Thanks. RC

          >Ruth-Claire Weintraub wrote:
          >>
          >> OK, I'd like to see you apply this plan to Mayer/Cordes Junction,
          >>Arizona, which would result in getting Arcosanti constructed. RC
          >
          >I fail to see the point of completing arcosanti.
          >Arcosanti is a nice lab for psychosocial experiments, A small community,
          >or, as
          >described on other lists, A monestary. Any way you cut it the place has no
          >commercial viability, a rather bland appearance, and a poor location. Why
          >was it
          >even started in its current location?
          >
        • Alan Grimes
          ... I fail to see the point of completing arcosanti. Arcosanti is a nice lab for psychosocial experiments, A small community, or, as described on other lists,
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 27, 1999
            Ruth-Claire Weintraub wrote:
            >
            > OK, I'd like to see you apply this plan to Mayer/Cordes Junction,
            >Arizona, which would result in getting Arcosanti constructed. RC

            I fail to see the point of completing arcosanti.
            Arcosanti is a nice lab for psychosocial experiments, A small community, or, as
            described on other lists, A monestary. Any way you cut it the place has no
            commercial viability, a rather bland appearance, and a poor location. Why was it
            even started in its current location?

            --
            See ya in the stone age! =P (hopefully/probably not)

            users.erols.com/alangrimes/
          • Alan Grimes
            ... Paolo Soleri, who coined the word arcology (perhaps before you were born?) can continue to be the extraordinary learning place that it is despite people
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 27, 1999
              Ruth-Claire Weintraub wrote:
              >
              > The point of "completing" Arcosanti is to ensure that the work of Dr.
              Paolo Soleri, who coined the word "arcology" (perhaps before you were
              born?) can continue to be the extraordinary learning place that it is
              despite people who fail to see how it is that. A monastery it definitely
              is NOT. I wouldn't disagree with "academic retreat" or a variation of
              that, perhaps, but "monastery" I find absurd. Sorry.
              <<<

              Well it was in another discussion.

              > It is located where it is because the land was available when we set out looking for a site on which it would be possible to build (at a scale
              > larger than had been possible at Cosanti). "Bland" is not a word I have ever heard anyone use to describe it before. Frankly, I don't think
              you will make first cut on the architectural critic list with it.
              <<

              From what little I can see of it through the web, the place doesn't seem to have
              much of a soul, and what soul it does have is a timid week soul that tries to
              hide itself in the terrain. The result is a series of passageways and chambers
              not completely unlike what ants would build. The "Hyper Building" is a much
              stronger concept, that one I would build. but not in the desert! I would use it
              to try to "unsprawl" a city. =)

              > Arcosanti has grown ever-so-modestly for near 30 years by virtue of the
              > fact that a) people are hungry for beauty (handcraft is not such a terrible business to promote, is it?)
              <<

              From a business point of view it has little growth potential and only modest
              returns.



              When you want money you must think in money.



              How much more will arcosanti be worth than the cost to build it? Only when you
              reach a certain threashold will people open their wallets.

              > Your scheme to put an "arcology fund" together is cute and I'd love to
              see you go ahead with it, but if you can't put together just the modest
              sums it will take to get the "laboratory," say, 99% complete, how the
              heck will you convince people they should expend their vast fortunes on
              the "real" thing?
              <<<

              1. Lets ground this discussion in fact. How much, to the nearest $10,000 are we
              talking about? If neccessary get a builder out there, show him your plans, show
              him your building, and ask for an estimate. I cannot discuss this any further
              without that information.

              2. Solari will fight both its completion and its commercialization.


              ... Yes that means I will have to get some inc. and Co. s in there. Selling them
              a desert will be tough. =\ With a prospective population of only 30,000 (or so
              I've heard) it will not be easy.


              --
              See ya in the stone age! =P (hopefully/probably not)

              users.erols.com/alangrimes/
            • ShanaAnne@aol.com
              Allen wrote: From what little I can see of it through the web, the place doesn t seem to have much of a soul, and what soul it does have is a timid week soul
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 27, 1999
                Allen wrote: "From what little I can see of it through the web, the place doesn't seem to have
                much of a soul, and what soul it does have is a timid week soul that tries to
                hide itself in the terrain. The result is a series of passageways and chambersnot completely unlike what ants would build. The "Hyper Building" is a much
                stronger concept, that one I would build. but not in the desert! I would use it to try to "unsprawl" a city. =) "
                --Have you ever been to arcosanti in person? From what you say, I must assume that you have not had a visit or taken the workshop. To give you another perspective, it has a huge amount of energy from the people working and living there, and also energy from the environment. It has so much energy, in my opinion, that i was up at 6am without an alarm clock in the middle of the summer(not common for a student just out of highschool, like I was at the time). It is almost indescribable, the feeling that one gets from arcosanti...so for you to call it bland, is almost amusing. I must suggest that you visit in person, not online, before making futher judgements. And as for the soul that hides in terrain...it does not hide, it works well with the terrain and doesn't destroy the environment. We prosper when we use the earth not abuse it. Also the hyperbuilding is a great idea, but the parts of arco that exist there now are learning tools, that soleri and others learned from to !
                create the new idea of the hyperbuilding.

                "From a business point of view it has little growth potential and only modest returns.
                When you want money you must think in money."
                --Most people think that way and our economic standards are on of the many reasons why we abuse the environment, if the only thing one thinks about is money, the earth is going to go straight to hell. Hasn't soleri and arcosanti taught us anything about existing and using the environment and land around us, not destroy it.

                I wish I had time to comment more, but I'm pressed for time. These were just some important things I wanted to add.
                --Shana :o)
              • Alan Grimes
                [The Allmighty Buck] ...
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 27, 1999
                  [The Allmighty Buck]
                  > --Most people think that way and our economic standards are on of the many reasons why we abuse the environment, if the only thing one thinks about is money, the earth is going to go straight to hell. Hasn't soleri and arcosanti taught us anything about existing and using the environment and land around us, not destroy it.
                  <<<

                  Yes I agree and disagree [argument later]. I want to "unsprawl" citties.
                  As of today the county to the west of mine, Loudon county has, untill reciently,
                  been mostly rural, now its being paved over at about an acre a nanosecond
                  because the space that does exist in Fairfax County is being used inefficiently.
                  Now If I were to Build an arcology in Fairfax, I could save that much more in
                  Loudon. So right here Is a chance where both economic and environmental concerns
                  are in complete agreement. The location I had suggested in McLean is mostly
                  paved over already and in the process of arcologising, the main atrium in the
                  building will be mostly parkland. So in this case I am turning parking lot into
                  trees. =) With powerfull Carbon Arc lights there'll never be a cloudy day
                  indoors.
                  About "using the existing environment" While it is usefull to adapt the
                  arcology to the needs of the environment one must realize that some places that
                  you could build an arcology are extremely hostile to human life. An example of
                  this is the surface of the moon. There the environment is so hostile one must
                  realize that the priority for a human habitat is to support human activities.
                  Having it coexist with an environment is a secondary but still very valid
                  concern. Now on earth when we design an arcology to support human life
                  efficiently we both find tremendous economic and environmental improvements. My
                  only difference here is which one I look at first. Palo looked at ecological
                  concerns first and came up with something that while eco friendly, Does not
                  really provide for human needs. In this case human needs are measured by the
                  economic benefit of the structure. It's also taking him 30 years to finish it.
                  Now when I approach it I ask: Where would an arcology be of the greatest
                  benefit? Well how about a High sprawl area where proto-arcologies are emerging
                  naturally. Washington DC metro Area is one very good example, another is a
                  proto-arcology somewhere in the Atlanta area (I don't know exactly where it
                  is.). If I were, with your support, to begin my arcology project I will have a
                  MUCH larger arcology in place in less than 10 years.
                  To proove my methodology I very well might take up your challenge of completing
                  Arcosanti. I expect to have the job done within 2 years. I ask only that you get
                  an estimate of how much it will cost to complete it.

                  --
                  See ya in the stone age! =P (hopefully/probably not)

                  users.erols.com/alangrimes/
                • Ruth-Claire Weintraub
                  The web gives at best a sharp image of the place. Arcosanti is more of a kinaesthetic experience than you can imagine, but that is true of much of art (and
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                    The web gives at best a sharp image of the place. Arcosanti is more of a
                    kinaesthetic experience than you can imagine, but that is true of much of
                    art (and life). I don't know that you could demonstrate to someone what
                    it's like to visit the Statue of Liberty by showing them a website, for
                    example.

                    In any case, if you are interested in anti-sprawl ideas/responses, you
                    might want to look at the drawings and models for "3-D Jersey." Soleri
                    worked on that at Cosanti a few decades ago. (People who are REALLY
                    serious about "unsprawling" their cities will be tearing up their driver
                    permits and promoting sustainable transportation before they take any other
                    action, won't they?)

                    >>From what little I can see of it through the web, the place
                    >>doesn't seem to have much of a soul, and what soul it does have is >>a
                    >>timid week soul that tries to hide itself in the terrain. The
                    >>result is a series of passageways and chambers not completely
                    >>unlike what ants would build. The "Hyper Building" is a much
                    >>stronger concept, that one I would build. but not in the desert! I
                    >>>>would use it to try to "unsprawl" a city.

                    I think you are missing something fundamental, Alan: Arcosanti isn't a
                    "commercial operation." It's a learning place that is being built by
                    people who are actually interested in learning how to build it as a
                    learning place. If Paolo has fought its "commercialization," that is
                    because he is committed to its completion as an experimental kind of
                    learning place. Arcosanti is the project of an educational not-for-profit
                    foundation. Many of us've suggested possible commercial venues over the
                    years, which've been (I now think) quite rightfully overruled. Do you
                    really want your school to be owned by Coca-Cola?

                    Have you by any chance ever heard of Black Mountain College? It seems to
                    me Arcosanti is more like BMC, Berea, Friends World College or Taliesin.
                    There are ways in which it is similar to the kibbutzim or moshavim in
                    Israel, too. None of those institutions were based on ultra-commercial
                    models -- nor need they have been. It isn't necessary for every
                    institution to be developed from corporate models.

                    In fact, not everyone wants to live in a mold, which may be a reason that
                    "arcologies" per se have not been as popular conceptually as an idea of
                    "arcologizing" might be (if we were to do what "architecture + ecology"
                    COULD do).

                    The historical city grows out of needs -- human needs in place and time; I
                    suggest you read Wytold Rybczinski to get some background. The "urban
                    laboratory" Arcosanti also grows out of particular human needs in place and
                    time. The better it responds to the needs of the people who would and can
                    choose to help it grow, the more "complete" it will be. Don't you agree?
                    That site should never support more than a few thousand people, but why
                    would it wish to? (How many people want to live in the Grand Canyon? Or
                    on Oahu? Or on the campus of any college in the nation? Fortunately not
                    that many!) In fact Arcosanti was not intended to support a huge
                    population; the intention was to create an educational village for a few
                    thousand at most. That is what it is trying to do, what it's been doing
                    (in its wonderful, dedicated way) for more than two generations now. In
                    its "limited" way, it's a success! Many businesses would think they had
                    done very well, indeed, if they had similar track records...

                    Me, I would love to see more of it completed. When people feel they have a
                    stake in it, they help promote it, raise money for materials, personally
                    dedicate time, intelligence and energy. That is what it takes to build
                    anything -- especially anything significant. There are lots of reasons
                    its growth has been slow but "lack of potential" is definitely not one of
                    them!

                    It costs $69 to buy a Greyhound ticket to go across the continent if you
                    book your seat two weeks in advance. You could be in Arizona in 3 days +
                    14, if you're back east now. Nice time of year to see the desert... Call
                    ahead to register for a workshop; if you're over 55, you can do one in the
                    Elderhostel program. Happy 2000.

                    >>From a business point of view Arcosanti has little growthpotential and
                    >>only modest returns.
                    >>When you want money you must think in money.
                    >>How much more will arcosanti be worth than the cost to build it?
                    >>Only when you reach a certain threashold will people open their
                    >>wallets.
                    >>1. Lets ground this discussion in fact. How much, to the nearest $10,000
                    >>are we>talking about? If neccessary get a builder out there, show him
                    >>your plans, show him your building, ask for an estimate. I cannot discuss
                    >>this any further without that information.

                    >2. Soleri will fight both its completion and its commercialization.
                    >... Yes that means I will have to get some inc. and Co. s in there.
                    >Selling them>a desert will be tough. =\ With a prospective population of
                    >only 30,000 (or so>I've heard) it will not be easy.
                    >
                  • Rhkratzse@aol.com
                    ... I ve gotta agree with you, RC. We can spend all our energy fighting an existing population and bureaucracy and all of our money (if we ever actually
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                      In a message dated 12/26/99 9:00:56 PM, rclaire@... writes:

                      >OK, I'd like to see you apply this plan to Mayer/Cordes Junction, Arizona,
                      >which would result in getting Arcosanti constructed. RC
                      >
                      I've gotta agree with you, RC. We can spend all our energy fighting an
                      existing population and bureaucracy and all of our money (if we ever actually
                      gather any), say $1 Billion minimum, trying to assemble a huge plot in the
                      middle of the overpopulated East ... or we can do what Paolo did a
                      half-century ago, with much foresight, in a more isolated and realistic
                      locale with fewer existing obstacles and an infinitely (yes, infinitely,
                      because any possibility in the West divided by the zero possibility in the
                      East results in a ratio infinitely more favorable) greater possibility of
                      success. It's sad to see serious thought, if it is such, pursuing the
                      patently impossible fantasy of building an Arcology in the middle of the
                      Eastern Megalopolis. Hell, it'll be hard enough in Yavapai Cty!

                      Hey, wasn't Skip's one-time motto "Critical Mass in 1980"??

                      Best wishes to all in the Next Millennium!

                      Ralph Hueston Kratz
                    • Rhkratzse@aol.com
                      ... Wasn t such a description once applied to: 1) Manhattan, 2) San Francisco, 3) horseless carriages, 4) computers, 5) eBay, 6) Amazon.com, and an infinite
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                        In a message dated 12/26/99 9:48:38 PM, alangrimes@... writes:

                        >no
                        >commercial viability


                        Wasn't such a description once applied to: 1) Manhattan, 2) San Francisco, 3)
                        horseless carriages, 4) computers, 5) eBay, 6) Amazon.com, and an infinite
                        range of other "fantasies" that in fact became financially viable?

                        Just think, if only ONE workshopper had had the foresight to start an eBay or
                        Microsoft or Amazon.com just FIVE years ago Arcosanti could be fully funded
                        right now!

                        Ralph
                      • Rhkratzse@aol.com
                        ... 1. 30,000 pop. x 500 sf* x $200./sf = $3 Billion, give or take $10,000. (*200sf/person personal space in 3-4 person family units, plus work and social
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                          In a message dated 12/27/99 8:11:06 AM, alangrimes@... writes:

                          >1. Lets ground this discussion in fact. How much, to the nearest $10,000
                          >are we
                          >talking about? If neccessary get a builder out there, show him your plans,
                          >show
                          >him your building, and ask for an estimate. I cannot discuss this any further
                          >without that information.
                          >
                          >2. Solari will fight both its completion and its commercialization.
                          >

                          1. 30,000 pop. x 500 sf* x $200./sf = $3 Billion, give or take $10,000.
                          (*200sf/person personal space in 3-4 person family units, plus work and
                          social space--just a guess)

                          2. What "Solari" mean?

                          3. Admittedly you're at a disadvantage if you've not seen/experienced
                          Arcosanti, as seems to be the case. That applies to everything from the
                          Sistine Chapel to sex.

                          :)

                          Ralph
                        • Lou Dallara
                          rhkratzs-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/arcology/?start=340 ... Hey Ralph .. How about if we do it in the Y2K .. reach
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                            rhkratzs-@... wrote:
                            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/arcology/?start=340
                            >
                            > Hey, wasn't Skip's one-time motto "Critical Mass in 1980"??
                            >
                            > Best wishes to all in the Next Millennium!
                            >
                            > Ralph Hueston Kratz
                            >

                            Hey Ralph .. How about if we do it in the Y2K .. reach "Critical Mass
                            in 2000"??

                            Lou
                          • George Kosmides
                            I guess it doesn t mean anything to look at it as $/cubic ft? Probably not. Does the $200/sf include economies of scale, getting smarter about casting all
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                              I guess it doesn't mean anything to look at it as $/cubic ft? Probably not.

                              Does the $200/sf include economies of scale, getting smarter about casting
                              all similar panels at once, etc.? Seems high?

                              -George

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <Rhkratzse@...>
                              To: <alangrimes@...>; <arcology@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 8:41 PM
                              Subject: [arcology] Re: Arcology plans!


                              >
                              > In a message dated 12/27/99 8:11:06 AM, alangrimes@... writes:
                              >
                              > >1. Lets ground this discussion in fact. How much, to the nearest $10,000
                              > >are we
                              > >talking about? If neccessary get a builder out there, show him your
                              plans,
                              > >show
                              > >him your building, and ask for an estimate. I cannot discuss this any
                              further
                              > >without that information.
                              > >
                              > >2. Solari will fight both its completion and its commercialization.
                              > >
                              >
                              > 1. 30,000 pop. x 500 sf* x $200./sf = $3 Billion, give or take $10,000.
                              > (*200sf/person personal space in 3-4 person family units, plus work and
                              > social space--just a guess)
                              >
                              > 2. What "Solari" mean?
                              >
                              > 3. Admittedly you're at a disadvantage if you've not seen/experienced
                              > Arcosanti, as seems to be the case. That applies to everything from the
                              > Sistine Chapel to sex.
                              >
                              > :)
                              >
                              > Ralph
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                              >
                              > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
                              > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=arcology&m=1
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Rhkratzse@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/28/99 7:51:42 PM, gkosmides@noospherics.com writes:
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 28, 1999
                                In a message dated 12/28/99 7:51:42 PM, gkosmides@... writes:
                                << I guess it doesn't mean anything to look at it as $/cubic ft? Probably not.

                                Does the $200/sf include economies of scale, getting smarter about casting

                                all similar panels at once, etc.? Seems high?

                                >>
                                Building construction costs are often estimated on a square foot basis. I've
                                never heard of using a cubic foot as the basis, although it may have been
                                done.

                                Frankly, I haven't the slightest idea what 25- to 100-story buildings cost to
                                build, but if one- and two-story wood-framed homes cost $100-150/sf (in the
                                San Francisco Bay Area) I can't imagine that steel- or concrete-framed
                                structures full of elevators and sophisticated fire-suppression, heating, and
                                ventilating systems are any cheaper. Yes, natural ventilation, a la Two Suns
                                Arcology, may help considerably, but I don't think we should kid ourselves
                                that these structures will be cheap. Efficient and well worth it, of course,
                                but not cheap.

                                Ralph
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