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Ice Age

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  • Yoseph
    Greetings distinguished fellow members of this group. I should first make a disclaimer that I am not looking to prove the Great Flood (my own beliefs are
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 2, 2004
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      Greetings distinguished fellow members of this group.

      I should first make a disclaimer that I am not looking to prove
      the "Great Flood" (my own beliefs are that it was likely a large
      flood that maybe covered a good portion of the "known world" rather
      than the whole Earth, but my mind isn't made up on the issue.) and I
      am aware of some of the overwhelming evidence that shows at least one
      Ice Age occurred. Therefore, the point of this is not to say the ice
      age did not exist, but rather a genuine and honest question.

      Now to the question: Is there *any* known references from ancient
      cultures to the last Ice Age? I am aware that written language had
      not developed at that time (end of which was roughly 10,000 BCE
      correct?), and indeed probably not for 4,000-6,000 years later based
      on estimates I've heard/read. However, oral traditions may have
      carried through and later been written. Considering the significance
      of an Ice Age or the end of such to mankind, one would think at least
      *some* legends or mythos would have survived; however, such has never
      been presented to me. This is not a quest to decide whether I
      believe in the Ice Age or the Great Flood (they're not mutually
      exclusive anyways), but simply a question from someone who is
      interested in the beliefs of ancient cultures, obviously why I chose
      Archaeology as my major to begin with.

      Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. Daniel


      P.S. If you found the disclaimers unnecessary, they were solely
      because of an argument that happened when I first joined this group
      between an Xtian member and at least one moderator of this group. I
      hate seeing arguments and much prefer debate (as many of you are
      Ph.D.'s and the like, I doubt I need to explain the difference), but
      in this case I'm simply looking for raw information.
    • dar_83001
      ... Greetings from an undistinguished member (no fancy letters following my name). [snip] ... The answer is yes, providing you define ancient culture in a
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 2, 2004
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        --- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, "Yoseph" <khaniothaoi@s...>
        wrote:
        > Greetings distinguished fellow members of this group.

        Greetings from an undistinguished member (no fancy letters following
        my name).
        [snip]

        > Now to the question: Is there *any* known references from ancient
        > cultures to the last Ice Age?

        The answer is yes, providing you define ancient culture in a broader
        sense than ancient "civilized" culture.

        > I am aware that written language had
        > not developed at that time (end of which was roughly 10,000 BCE
        > correct?), and indeed probably not for 4,000-6,000 years later
        based
        > on estimates I've heard/read.

        That is correct, on both counts. Cultures before 10,000 BCE were
        composed of bands of Stone Age hunter-gatherers. Immediately
        preceding 10,000 BCE in Europe were the Aurignacian (c. 40,000-
        30,000 BCE), Gravettian (c. 30,000-22,000 BCE) and, in western
        Europe, the Solutrean (c. 22,000-19,000 BCE) and Magdalenian (c.
        19,000-12,000 BCE) "cultures" of the European Upper (or Late)
        Paleolithic.

        Only the Magdalenian "culture" is younger than the Last Glacial
        Maximum (LGM) of the last Ice Age, which occurred about 20-18,000
        years ago. As the glaciers retreated, the Magdalenian culture
        expanded northward from southern France into the lowlands of nothern
        Europe as far as Poland abot 15,000 BCE. Recolonization of British
        Isles occurred about 13,000 BCE, and the people were called
        Creswellians, although they were descended from Magdalenian culture
        populations.

        Dar

        > However, oral traditions may have
        > carried through and later been written. Considering the
        significance
        > of an Ice Age or the end of such to mankind, one would think at
        least
        > *some* legends or mythos would have survived; however, such has
        never
        > been presented to me. This is not a quest to decide whether I
        > believe in the Ice Age or the Great Flood (they're not mutually
        > exclusive anyways), but simply a question from someone who is
        > interested in the beliefs of ancient cultures, obviously why I
        chose
        > Archaeology as my major to begin with.
        >
        > Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. Daniel
        >
        >
        > P.S. If you found the disclaimers unnecessary, they were solely
        > because of an argument that happened when I first joined this
        group
        > between an Xtian member and at least one moderator of this group.
        I
        > hate seeing arguments and much prefer debate (as many of you are
        > Ph.D.'s and the like, I doubt I need to explain the difference),
        but
        > in this case I'm simply looking for raw information.
      • Yoseph Istanlovich
        Thank you. And yes, I don t believe culture started with civilization. Obviously people had a culture before they had towns and cities, and I am fairly
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 2, 2004
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          Thank you. And yes, I don't believe culture started with civilization. Obviously people had a culture before they had towns and cities, and I am fairly certain from the evidence that nomadic tribal groups most certainly had mythos of their own. As for fancy letters, apparently you still have a wealth of information without them. It's up to you whether you wish to consider yourself "distinguished" or not. So you're saying there are "legends" surviving from the Magdalenian culture regarding the ice age? Were such written down or even lightly referred to by later civilizations when the advent of writing occurred? Thanks. Daniel

          dar_83001 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:--- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, "Yoseph" <khaniothaoi@s...>
          wrote:
          > Greetings distinguished fellow members of this group.

          Greetings from an undistinguished member (no fancy letters following
          my name).
          [snip]

          > Now to the question: Is there *any* known references from ancient
          > cultures to the last Ice Age?

          The answer is yes, providing you define ancient culture in a broader
          sense than ancient "civilized" culture.

          > I am aware that written language had
          > not developed at that time (end of which was roughly 10,000 BCE
          > correct?), and indeed probably not for 4,000-6,000 years later
          based
          > on estimates I've heard/read.

          That is correct, on both counts. Cultures before 10,000 BCE were
          composed of bands of Stone Age hunter-gatherers. Immediately
          preceding 10,000 BCE in Europe were the Aurignacian (c. 40,000-
          30,000 BCE), Gravettian (c. 30,000-22,000 BCE) and, in western
          Europe, the Solutrean (c. 22,000-19,000 BCE) and Magdalenian (c.
          19,000-12,000 BCE) "cultures" of the European Upper (or Late)
          Paleolithic.

          Only the Magdalenian "culture" is younger than the Last Glacial
          Maximum (LGM) of the last Ice Age, which occurred about 20-18,000
          years ago. As the glaciers retreated, the Magdalenian culture
          expanded northward from southern France into the lowlands of nothern
          Europe as far as Poland abot 15,000 BCE. Recolonization of British
          Isles occurred about 13,000 BCE, and the people were called
          Creswellians, although they were descended from Magdalenian culture
          populations.

          Dar

          > However, oral traditions may have
          > carried through and later been written. Considering the
          significance
          > of an Ice Age or the end of such to mankind, one would think at
          least
          > *some* legends or mythos would have survived; however, such has
          never
          > been presented to me. This is not a quest to decide whether I
          > believe in the Ice Age or the Great Flood (they're not mutually
          > exclusive anyways), but simply a question from someone who is
          > interested in the beliefs of ancient cultures, obviously why I
          chose
          > Archaeology as my major to begin with.
          >
          > Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. Daniel
          >
          >
          > P.S. If you found the disclaimers unnecessary, they were solely
          > because of an argument that happened when I first joined this
          group
          > between an Xtian member and at least one moderator of this group.
          I
          > hate seeing arguments and much prefer debate (as many of you are
          > Ph.D.'s and the like, I doubt I need to explain the difference),
          but
          > in this case I'm simply looking for raw information.



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dar_83001
          ... wrote: [snip] So you re saying there are legends surviving from the Magdalenian culture regarding the ice age? Were such
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 2, 2004
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            --- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, Yoseph Istanlovich
            <khaniothaoi@s...> wrote:
            [snip] So you're saying there are "legends" surviving from the
            Magdalenian culture regarding the ice age? Were such written down
            or even lightly referred to by later civilizations when the advent
            of writing occurred?
            Thanks. Daniel

            No, what I am saying is that these "cultures" and others that
            existed before written records, were advanced enough to comprehend
            nature around them and to compose mythologies. The best example of
            what you might be looking for probably comes from Australia,
            where there are aboriginal oral traditions carried down from
            the "Dreamtime", telling of a a time when world sea level increased,
            causing the Australian shoreline to retreat inland (from melting
            glaciers on all continents, which occurred after about 17,000 BCE
            until stabilization near present-day sea levels about 10,000 BCE).

            I'm no expert on metaphysical evidence (mythological, etc.), and I'm
            not familiar with the literature dealing with myths passed down at
            the origin of writing.

            Dar


            >
            > dar_83001 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:--- In
            archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, "Yoseph" <khaniothaoi@s...>
            > wrote:
            > > Greetings distinguished fellow members of this group.
            >
            > Greetings from an undistinguished member (no fancy letters
            following
            > my name).
            > [snip]
            >
            > > Now to the question: Is there *any* known references from
            ancient
            > > cultures to the last Ice Age?
            >
            > The answer is yes, providing you define ancient culture in a
            broader
            > sense than ancient "civilized" culture.
            >
            > > I am aware that written language had
            > > not developed at that time (end of which was roughly 10,000 BCE
            > > correct?), and indeed probably not for 4,000-6,000 years later
            > based
            > > on estimates I've heard/read.
            >
            > That is correct, on both counts. Cultures before 10,000 BCE were
            > composed of bands of Stone Age hunter-gatherers. Immediately
            > preceding 10,000 BCE in Europe were the Aurignacian (c. 40,000-
            > 30,000 BCE), Gravettian (c. 30,000-22,000 BCE) and, in western
            > Europe, the Solutrean (c. 22,000-19,000 BCE) and Magdalenian (c.
            > 19,000-12,000 BCE) "cultures" of the European Upper (or Late)
            > Paleolithic.
            >
            > Only the Magdalenian "culture" is younger than the Last Glacial
            > Maximum (LGM) of the last Ice Age, which occurred about 20-18,000
            > years ago. As the glaciers retreated, the Magdalenian culture
            > expanded northward from southern France into the lowlands of
            nothern
            > Europe as far as Poland abot 15,000 BCE. Recolonization of
            British
            > Isles occurred about 13,000 BCE, and the people were called
            > Creswellians, although they were descended from Magdalenian
            culture
            > populations.
            >
            > Dar
            >
            > > However, oral traditions may have
            > > carried through and later been written. Considering the
            > significance
            > > of an Ice Age or the end of such to mankind, one would think at
            > least
            > > *some* legends or mythos would have survived; however, such has
            > never
            > > been presented to me. This is not a quest to decide whether I
            > > believe in the Ice Age or the Great Flood (they're not mutually
            > > exclusive anyways), but simply a question from someone who is
            > > interested in the beliefs of ancient cultures, obviously why I
            > chose
            > > Archaeology as my major to begin with.
            > >
            > > Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.
            Daniel
            > >
            > >
            > > P.S. If you found the disclaimers unnecessary, they were solely
            > > because of an argument that happened when I first joined this
            > group
            > > between an Xtian member and at least one moderator of this
            group.
            > I
            > > hate seeing arguments and much prefer debate (as many of you are
            > > Ph.D.'s and the like, I doubt I need to explain the difference),
            > but
            > > in this case I'm simply looking for raw information.
            >
          • Doug Weller
            Hi Dar Thursday, June 3, 2004, 1:45:45 AM, you wrote: dar_83001 he best example of dar_83001 what you might be looking for probably comes from Australia,
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 4, 2004
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              Hi Dar


              Thursday, June 3, 2004, 1:45:45 AM, you wrote:

              dar_83001> he best example of
              dar_83001> what you might be looking for probably comes from Australia,
              dar_83001> where there are aboriginal oral traditions carried down from
              dar_83001> the "Dreamtime", telling of a a time when world sea level increased,
              dar_83001> causing the Australian shoreline to retreat inland (from melting
              dar_83001> glaciers on all continents, which occurred after about 17,000 BCE
              dar_83001> until stabilization near present-day sea levels about 10,000 BCE).

              I really would like some reliable evidence for this. There is a relevant
              Creationist claim that the aborigines saw dinosaurs:

              http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp

              The relevant part of this is:
              "Kulta

              Some parts of Australia have traditions of huge reptiles suggestive of
              long-necked sauropods, the dinosaur group which includes Diplodocus and
              Apatosaurus. For instance, Central Australian tribes described ‘Kulta’
              as a giant serpent who lived in the swamps which once covered the
              region, and ate plants. He was said to have a small head at the end of a
              long, narrow neck, a massive, bulky body supported by four huge legs,
              and a long, pointed tail which trailed behind him. This is similar to
              the accounts of Wanambi from northern Australia, who features in
              Aboriginal cave paintings, and Kooleen and Myndie from Victoria.6

              Unfortunately, the Aborigines maintain, the ‘land eventually all dried
              up, the forests became desert, the swamps emptied, and Kulta died.’6
              This actually fits the most common creationist models of the changing
              climate after Noah’s Flood."

              Now the swamps of Central Australia dried up millions of years ago, and
              Kulta is described as a serpent, but I can find no source that actually
              confirms the Central Australian area for Kulta or the bit about the land
              drying up. The source used by this creationist site is the kook Rex
              Gilroy, so that's a dead end. Gilroy's site from whence this came:
              http://www.internetezy.com.au/~mj129/strangephenomenonk.html

              Ok. Let's accept that there are oral stories about swamps drying up,
              etc. How old are they?

              http://www.treestumut.homestead.com/files/GoobraHistory.htm

              "Goobarragandra After European Settlement

              As the European settlers moved in and the Aborigines left the area,
              there was a sudden change to land management practices. Stock was
              introduced by the settlers and constant grazing quickly denuded the
              floodplains and foothills, which were then left susceptible to erosion.
              E.M. Curr, a squatter in 1848, stated (Ryan et al, 1995);

              "...the most nutritious grasses were originally the most common; but in
              consequence of constant over-stocking and scouring the pastures, these,
              where not eradicated, have very much decreased, their places being taken
              by inferior sorts and weeds introduced from Europe and Africa..."

              Sudden catastrophic storms then eroded large parts of the catchment.
              Gullies quickly appeared on the hillsides and an enormous amount of
              sediment was washed off the hills and smothered the "swampy" floodplains
              (Figure 2). This sediment, which we call Post Settlement Alluvium, or
              PSA, is the light, sandy layer that is usually visible on eroded creek
              and river banks above the black clay layer (Photo 1). Rainfall ran off
              the denuded hills and through the rivers and creeks quicker then before,
              incising the watercourses more deeply than before settlement. The
              incising of the rivers and creeks lowered the groundwater level adjacent
              to the watercourses. The swamps, which abounded on the floodplains,
              dried up from lack of water.

              This incising also undermined the vegetation that was growing along the
              banks of the streams. As a result the vegetation fell into the stream
              and was washed away by large floods. The denuded banks were then very
              susceptible to erosion. It is believed that the landholders of the area
              responded to this sudden and dramatic erosion by planting European tree
              species, such as willows, to attempt to "control" the erosion. There is
              also some anecdotal and physical evidence to suggest that some of the
              swampy areas on the floodplains were deliberately cleared of vegetation
              and drained in order to better utilise the land. These drains are
              evident today in straight gullies that have incised across the
              floodplain."

              There is a problem though as the area became covered by trees, so that
              bit of the alleged myth doesn't fit.

              Don't misunderstand me Dar, I'm not saying you are a Creationist or
              believe in Rex Gilroy's nonsense, and none of this relates to the sea
              level changes you mention, just thought it was interesting, maybe
              relevant.

              Doug

              --
              Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
              Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
              Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
              Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
            • dar_83001
              ... Australia, ... from ... level increased, ... (from melting ... 17,000 BCE ... 10,000 BCE). ... relevant ... {snip aboriginal dinosaur nonsense] Hi Doug, I
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 5, 2004
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                --- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@r...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Dar
                >
                >
                > Thursday, June 3, 2004, 1:45:45 AM, you wrote:
                >
                > dar_83001> he best example of
                > dar_83001> what you might be looking for probably comes from
                Australia,
                > dar_83001> where there are aboriginal oral traditions carried down
                from
                > dar_83001> the "Dreamtime", telling of a a time when world sea
                level increased,
                > dar_83001> causing the Australian shoreline to retreat inland
                (from melting
                > dar_83001> glaciers on all continents, which occurred after about
                17,000 BCE
                > dar_83001> until stabilization near present-day sea levels about
                10,000 BCE).
                >
                > I really would like some reliable evidence for this. There is a
                relevant
                > Creationist claim that the aborigines saw dinosaurs:
                >
                > http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/aborigines.asp

                {snip aboriginal dinosaur nonsense]

                Hi Doug,

                I really can't remmber where I read of this oral tradition of
                ancient sealevel rise. Perhaps from Archaeology of the Dreamtime:
                The Story of Prehistoric Australia & Her People
                By Josephine Flood (1983). Or perhaps not, the book, which does not
                dwell on dreamtime stories, but is an archaeology text, is on a
                shelf at my former home and I can't check right now. But I'll keep
                the question in mind and look into it when I go over there next
                week.

                > Ok. Let's accept that there are oral stories about swamps drying
                up,
                > etc. How old are they?
                >
                > http://www.treestumut.homestead.com/files/GoobraHistory.htm
                >
                > "Goobarragandra After European Settlement
                [snip]
                > There is a problem though as the area became covered by trees, so
                that
                > bit of the alleged myth doesn't fit.

                Well, I don't even see how post-European settlement is relevant to
                the question of the inland swamps drying up.

                While I don't have Flood's book with me, I do have an extensive
                notebook filled with Australian arechaeological papers dealing with
                the environs of the fossil human finds at Willandra Lake, Kopw
                Swamp, etc.

                I've taken a quick glance at:

                Stone, T. & Cupper, M.L. (2003). Last Glacial Maximum ages for
                robust humans at Kow Swamp, southern Australia. Journal of Human
                Evolution. 45: 99-111.

                Prior to 20,000 years ago, the archaeological site was on the
                shoreline of a small lake. A quote from the paper: "...The
                shoreline deposits of Kow Swamp span the LGM. This period is one of
                drying lakes and saline water tables in the interior of
                Australia..., coincident with glacial advance and periglacial
                conditions in the southeastern highlands..." (p. 108).

                At Willandra Lakes (again in the interior of SE Australia), the
                archaeological site of the Lake Mungo burial is on a lunette formed
                by sand while a lake existed there about 40,000 years
                ago. "...archaeological materials are found in the Mungo (55,000-
                35,000 BP), Arumpo (35,000-22,000 BP), and Zanci (22,000-19,000 BP
                units. Although the lake has been dry since that time, and lunette
                formation ceased, human occupation continued in the region." (Peter
                Hiscock, quoted from Encyclopedia of Prehistory III: Chapter 4, p.
                21. Klewer Academic).

                Lake Mungo is practically desert today. The pictures from the
                archaeological site show no trees in the background. only near-
                barren near flat terrain.

                Anyway, the point of all this is that until the LGM about 18,000 BP,
                conditions in the interior of Australia were much more humid than
                during and after the LGM. I could come up with other examples of
                swamps and lakes drying up in the interior of Australia during the
                Late Pleistocene, but I don't see the point when you seem more
                interested in my assertion that there was an oral tradition of
                rising sea level.

                I'll spend some time next week looking through my stuff to see if I
                can come up with a reference.

                Dar

                > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                > Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@m...
                > Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
                > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
              • dar_83001
                ... Back quickly, Doug. I didn t have to go far for one reference. I google-searced the phrase dreamtime oral traditions and came up with:
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 5, 2004
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                  > --- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@r...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > I really would like some reliable evidence for this......

                  Back quickly, Doug.

                  I didn't have to go far for one reference. I google-searced the
                  phrase "dreamtime oral traditions" and came up with:

                  http://www.crystalinks.com/dreamtime.html

                  A quote from about halway down the page:

                  "Aboriginal oral traditions which describe the origin of Australia
                  from ancient times are frequently dramatic, involving great beings
                  and amazing events, however they do contain the essence of the
                  truth. The legends when distilled create a story of the origins of
                  man in Australia and of the Australian landscape as it is today of
                  which much can be substantiated by scientific investigation. The
                  ancient racial memory of a people whose traditions and culture
                  remained largely unaltered for thousands of years can recount great
                  geological changes--the rising of the seas [THE RISING OF THE SEAS -
                  good enough? DAR], the change from lush vegetation to desert, and
                  the eruption of volcanoes as well as the very first arrival of man
                  on this continent."
                  - Australian Dreaming: 40,000 Years of Aboriginal History by
                  Jennifer Isaacs
                • Mikey Brass
                  ... I would recommend obtaining a copy of Professor Nic Flemming s Cities in the Sea (if memory serves me right, without references to hand). Nic is an
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 5, 2004
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                    At 10:35 05/06/2004, dar_83001 wrote:

                    >http://www.crystalinks.com/dreamtime.html
                    >
                    >A quote from about halway down the page:
                    >
                    >"Aboriginal oral traditions which describe the origin of Australia
                    >from ancient times are frequently dramatic, involving great beings
                    >and amazing events, however they do contain the essence of the
                    >truth. The legends when distilled create a story of the origins of
                    >man in Australia and of the Australian landscape as it is today of
                    >which much can be substantiated by scientific investigation.

                    I would recommend obtaining a copy of Professor Nic Flemming's "Cities in
                    the Sea" (if memory serves me right, without references to hand). Nic is an
                    underwater archaeologist at the institute in Southampton. His book was
                    published in the 1960s, is available through http://www.bookfinder.com
                    second-hand, but much of what he says remains valid. Essentially, he
                    contends that myths contain (distorted) memories of valid events such as
                    sea level rises and land formation changes. It isn't a kook book but a
                    serious academic study.
                  • Doug Weller
                    Hi Dar, Saturday, June 5, 2004, 9:09:40 AM, you wrote: dar_83001 Anyway, the point of all this is that until the LGM about 18,000 BP, dar_83001 conditions in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 6, 2004
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                      Hi Dar,


                      Saturday, June 5, 2004, 9:09:40 AM, you wrote:



                      dar_83001> Anyway, the point of all this is that until the LGM about 18,000 BP,
                      dar_83001> conditions in the interior of Australia were much more humid than
                      dar_83001> during and after the LGM. I could come up with other examples of
                      dar_83001> swamps and lakes drying up in the interior of Australia during the
                      dar_83001> Late Pleistocene, but I don't see the point when you seem more
                      dar_83001> interested in my assertion that there was an oral tradition of
                      dar_83001> rising sea level.

                      Thanks. The thing about the swamps was just me wondering if the bit I
                      was looking at about swamps drying up might have been a more recent
                      tradition.

                      dar_83001> I'll spend some time next week looking through my stuff to see if I
                      dar_83001> can come up with a reference.

                      That's kind of you.

                      Doug

                      --
                      Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                      Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@...
                      Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
                      Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
                    • Anne Gilbert
                      MIke: This isn t only confined to the original Aurstralian people. There are a number of stories in the Pacific Northwest about various mountains being
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 6, 2004
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                        MIke:

                        This isn't only confined to the original Aurstralian people. There are a number of stories in the Pacific Northwest about various mountains being spirits. Some of these mountains/spirits supposedly fought battles where they threw fireballs. Among them Mt. Rainier and Mt. Adams. Over Mt. St. Helens. All three of these mountains are located in Washington State, and all three of them are more or less "active" volcanoes.
                        Anne G

                        I would recommend obtaining a copy of Professor Nic Flemming's "Cities in
                        the Sea" (if memory serves me right, without references to hand). Nic is an
                        underwater archaeologist at the institute in Southampton. His book was
                        published in the 1960s, is available through http://www.bookfinder.com
                        second-hand, but much of what he says remains valid. Essentially, he
                        contends that myths contain (distorted) memories of valid events such as
                        sea level rises and land formation changes. It isn't a kook book but a
                        serious academic study.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dar_83001
                        ... [snip] ... bit I ... Hi Doug, Although a lot of interior Australian lakes and swamps dried up because of aridity associated with the LGM at about 18 kyr
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 6, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In archaeology2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@r...>
                          wrote:
                          > Hi Dar,
                          > Saturday, June 5, 2004, 9:09:40 AM, you wrote:

                          [snip]

                          > Thanks. The thing about the swamps was just me wondering if the
                          bit I
                          > was looking at about swamps drying up might have been a more recent
                          > tradition.

                          Hi Doug,

                          Although a lot of interior Australian lakes and swamps dried up
                          because of aridity associated with the LGM at about 18 kyr BP, it
                          would be difficult to place a date on an oral tradition of a swamp
                          drying up without knowing which swamp the oral tradition refers to.
                          The aridification fluctuated after the LGM and there were swamps and
                          lakes that dried up in later times, into the Holocene. A period of
                          particularly arid conditions occurred between about 6000 BP and 4000
                          BP. Peter Hiscock thinks this period is ressponsible for the
                          Australian small tool tradition. See:

                          Hiscock, P. 1994 Technological responses to risk in Holocene
                          Australia. Journal of World Prehistory 8(3):267-292

                          This paper and others authored by Hiscock is available free online
                          at:

                          http://arts.anu.edu.au/arcworld/resources/papers/stonepapers.htm

                          Scroll down through the list to find the paper I refer to above.

                          Dar

                          > dar_83001> I'll spend some time next week looking through my stuff
                          to see if I
                          > dar_83001> can come up with a reference.
                          >
                          > That's kind of you.
                          >
                          > Doug
                          >
                          > --
                          > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
                          > Submissions to:sci-archaeology-moderated@m...
                          > Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
                          > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
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