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Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] Nicea Canon 15 - Re: القوانين الكنسية لا نتخاب بابا الإسكندرية ... والأنبا شنودة, A ccepting the fact tha t electing the Pope from Bishops IS WRONG

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  • Alex Rauer
    Dear Dr. Hayam, Professor Bebawi, Mr. Sami, Dr. William and all ArBible readers Please correct me if I am wrong, tell me if I am right. We did not confess yet
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 15, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Dr. Hayam, Professor Bebawi, Mr. Sami, Dr. William and all ArBible readers

      Please correct me if I am wrong, tell me if I am right.

      We did not confess yet nor approved that we changed the law at the Coptic Orthodox Church, but even we accused other Orthodox Churches that they are changing the Tradition step by step, subject by subject, and the election of the Patriarchs is one of these things.
       
      I was listening to anba Bishoy attacking the Greek Orthodox in Lebanon and Syria (and the whole world) when he accused them that they reduced their lent and other fasting periods(seasons), by taking out (lifting) one week the cheese, the other week the meat, ...etc so they slowly come to an end. ( They call it the week of lifting cheese, the week of lifting the meat)and he said we are the only Church on the earth, on the entire surface of the Globe, who never changed a letter, or a prayer or ANY thing at ALL.
       
      YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE ELECTION OF Anba Shenouda legal, ( 1 case for 1 person), by any way, cause you can not accept the Truth that it is niether right nor legal, and it was done against the Old Tradition of the Catholic and Aposltolic Church. In addition I say without the blessing of the whole Coptic Synode at that time (1971-1972), so now you are saying since other Orthodox Churches change it why not , Why not Us ??
      Dr. Hayam even went so FAR, since the Catholic Pope are picked up from Cardinals, why do not we do the same thing  ??????????????????????????????????? they are a big church ......
       Are you / we are having the Catholic Church our Source of law, follow them now 
      Are we following the Catholic Church now?????,
      Do we beleive in every thing they do and say ????
       
      let us go THEN  to their Liturgy , accept their Eucharist, confess with their Priests, let us even not waste our time and be under them ( that will be on the dead body of some we know)
       
      My point is we ARE (the Coptic Orthodox Church) known as a Church who NEVER EVER, I REPEAT, NEVER EVER OR WILL NEVER EVER, IN THE PAST OR THE FUTURE; CHANGE ANY LAWS / TRADITION AS WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE IT, NEITHER ANY ONE ELSE.
       
      Why in the world we want NOW to Change ONLY this part, to adaot / Match Anba Shenouda's desire ??????????
      Why we are not imitating other Orthodox Church in all the past centuries IN ALL AND EVERY THING THEY CHANGED AND DID ??????????????? 
       
      Logically, if we approve that change, let us approve other changes, can we also accept the marriage of the bishops, in the same level, we are giving the right to others like Max Michele to be right ?????
       
      Are you telling me that we are not a Traditional Church any more and things are NOW subject to changes ?????

      Please tell me YES or NO, as I like to hear it, then I will give you my final opinion and answer.
       
      Either we Open ALL the doors of any and all changes (and FOR changes) then it will turn out to be Totally another church totally different than the Original one, or REFUSE COMPLETELY and TOTALLY any changes AT ALL.
       
      Then forget about the Martyrs, confessors............etc (and Million etc..........)
       
      Can we change the Mass, the Liturgies, all prayers,  etc.... make it short ?????????
      Change the Lent and make it short ?????????????????
      Let the bishops getting married ???????????????
       
       
      Why not, if Changes are OK  ???????? if OTHER CHURCHES did it ????? common, hey..
       
      Got My Point ????????????????????, please let me know, I beg you for an answer..
       
      Anba Shenouda now, after his enthrone, not Ordination, cause he did not get Ordination, they called it ( Wad7 Al Ayady ), cause Pope Kirellos ordinated him once already before and he can't get ordined twice. ( still do not get it  ???????????????????)
       
      Anba Shenouda after that;  increased the number or GENERAL BISHOPS, and  ordained only who are following him, to get majority in the Synod without any opposite opinions, and who ever has an opposite opinion against his, will be a done deal, dead by the terrorist act of anba bishoy.
       
      Do you need details ????? ask Bishop Grill, that is his job, and that is why he is getting all of his false power.
       
      We need to listen to other opinions like what ever Sami El Masry published, to listen to what ever The Late Abouna Bishoy Kamel said before and Published in Writing, yes Abouna Bishoy Kamel, and Iris El Masry, the best and greatest historian of the Coptic Church in this decade.....
       
       
      Just listen may be the truth is there.........................................................
       
      And I really need your feed back, again I will end as I started , asking me either to correct me if I am wrong or tell me I am right.
       
      Lord Have mercy on me.. a sinner
       
      Thanks
       
      Alex
       


       
      On 11/15/06, hayam gorgi <dr_hayam_adel@...> wrote:

      اذن فى الكنائس الأرثوذكسية الأخرى يوجد بطاركة كانوا أساقفة أصلا قبل رسامتهم بطاركة و هم لا يطبقوا هذه الجزئية  من  قرارات نيقية ، ايضا البابا يوحنا بولس الثانى كان أسقفا قبل رسامته بابا لروما


      arbible <mnkamel@...> wrote:
      Dear Samy,

      Please note that Nicea Canon 15 is no longer applied in other
      Churches. For example, the current Patriarch of Jerusalem, His
      Beatitude Patriarch Theophilus III (Giannopoulos), was formerly
      the Archbishop of Tabor:
      http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theophilus_III_%28Giannopoulos%29_of_Jerusalem

      Similarly, the current Ecumenical Patriarch, His All-Holiness
      Patriarch Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople, was
      previously Metropolitan of Philadelphia between 1973-1990 (succeeded
      by Meliton (Karas)) and Metropolitan of Chalcedon from 1990-1991
      (succeeded by Joachim (Neradjoulis)):
      http://orthodoxwiki.org/Bartholomew_I_%28Archontonis%29_of_Constantinople

      Yours in Christ,
      --arbible
      Check out:
      http://ar.orthodoxwiki.org/

      --- In arbible@yahoogroups.com, "Modern Discussion" <selmasry7@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > القوانين الكنسية لانتخاب بابا الإسكندرية... والأنبا شنودة
      > < http://www.rezgar.com/debat/show.art.asp?t=0&aid=80855>
      >

       


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    • hayam gorgi
      dear Mr Alex peace and grace to you please read again my brief comment , was only stating what has happened and did not call for following ( the others ) .
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 16, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        dear Mr Alex
        peace and grace to you
        please read again my brief comment , was only stating what has happened and did not call for following ( the others ) . actually i need to know why did the other churches change or did not follow the canon , there must be a reason that i do not know ! am sorry if my brief words are easily misunderstood . am learning from all of you and am not qualified enough to judje these matters, may differ with some but its ok to differ , it is a sign of life provided we all respect christian morals and follow Jesus' steps . there are so many issues that are completely new to me in this dicussion and i learnt that we are ALL weak humans that can make mistakes . what really matters is that one should repent ,confess and correct his path . most of this generation learnt from both Pope Shenouda and Fr Matta and therefore respect both of them and did not look upon them as  opponents till only recently ... this is a fact . that is why so many people feel great pain seeing this battle on behalf of the church.for myself in  my simple thinking what really matters to me is to live with Jesus love and this is the most important issue to me  specially that no one can take this away from me in His Name and i admit that i leave these issues to those who are more qualified and have more knowledge  than me but i read ,listen and learn. may God protect His church .
        dr hayam
         

        Alex Rauer <alex.rauer@...> wrote:
        Dear Dr. Hayam, Professor Bebawi, Mr. Sami, Dr. William and all ArBible readers
        Please correct me if I am wrong, tell me if I am right.
        We did not confess yet nor approved that we changed the law at the Coptic Orthodox Church, but even we accused other Orthodox Churches that they are changing the Tradition step by step, subject by subject, and the election of the Patriarchs is one of these things.
         
        I was listening to anba Bishoy attacking the Greek Orthodox in Lebanon and Syria (and the whole world) when he accused them that they reduced their lent and other fasting periods(seasons) , by taking out (lifting) one week the cheese, the other week the meat, ...etc so they slowly come to an end. ( They call it the week of lifting cheese, the week of lifting the meat)and he said we are the only Church on the earth, on the entire surface of the Globe, who never changed a letter, or a prayer or ANY thing at ALL.
         
        YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE ELECTION OF Anba Shenouda legal, ( 1 case for 1 person), by any way, cause you can not accept the Truth that it is niether right nor legal, and it was done against the Old Tradition of the Catholic and Aposltolic Church. In addition I say without the blessing of the whole Coptic Synode at that time (1971-1972), so now you are saying since other Orthodox Churches change it why not , Why not Us ??
        Dr. Hayam even went so FAR, since the Catholic Pope are picked up from Cardinals, why do not we do the same thing  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????? they are a big church ......
         Are you / we are having the Catholic Church our Source of law, follow them now 
        Are we following the Catholic Church now?????,
        Do we beleive in every thing they do and say ????
         
        let us go THEN  to their Liturgy , accept their Eucharist, confess with their Priests, let us even not waste our time and be under them ( that will be on the dead body of some we know)
         
        My point is we ARE (the Coptic Orthodox Church) known as a Church who NEVER EVER, I REPEAT, NEVER EVER OR WILL NEVER EVER, IN THE PAST OR THE FUTURE; CHANGE ANY LAWS / TRADITION AS WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE IT, NEITHER ANY ONE ELSE.
         
        Why in the world we want NOW to Change ONLY this part, to adaot / Match Anba Shenouda's desire ??????????
        Why we are not imitating other Orthodox Church in all the past centuries IN ALL AND EVERY THING THEY CHANGED AND DID ???????????? ??? 
         
        Logically, if we approve that change, let us approve other changes, can we also accept the marriage of the bishops, in the same level, we are giving the right to others like Max Michele to be right ?????
         
        Are you telling me that we are not a Traditional Church any more and things are NOW subject to changes ?????

        Please tell me YES or NO, as I like to hear it, then I will give you my final opinion and answer.
         
        Either we Open ALL the doors of any and all changes (and FOR changes) then it will turn out to be Totally another church totally different than the Original one, or REFUSE COMPLETELY and TOTALLY any changes AT ALL.
         
        Then forget about the Martyrs, confessors.. ......... .etc (and Million etc......... .)
         
        Can we change the Mass, the Liturgies, all prayers,  etc.... make it short ?????????
        Change the Lent and make it short ???????????? ?????
        Let the bishops getting married ???????????? ???
         
         
        Why not, if Changes are OK  ???????? if OTHER CHURCHES did it ????? common, hey..
         
        Got My Point ???????????? ????????, please let me know, I beg you for an answer..
         
        Anba Shenouda now, after his enthrone, not Ordination, cause he did not get Ordination, they called it ( Wad7 Al Ayady ), cause Pope Kirellos ordinated him once already before and he can't get ordined twice. ( still do not get it  ???????????? ???????)
         
        Anba Shenouda after that;  increased the number or GENERAL BISHOPS, and  ordained only who are following him, to get majority in the Synod without any opposite opinions, and who ever has an opposite opinion against his, will be a done deal, dead by the terrorist act of anba bishoy.
         
        Do you need details ????? ask Bishop Grill, that is his job, and that is why he is getting all of his false power.
         
        We need to listen to other opinions like what ever Sami El Masry published, to listen to what ever The Late Abouna Bishoy Kamel said before and Published in Writing, yes Abouna Bishoy Kamel, and Iris El Masry, the best and greatest historian of the Coptic Church in this decade.....
         
         
        Just listen may be the truth is there....... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... .....
         
        And I really need your feed back, again I will end as I started , asking me either to correct me if I am wrong or tell me I am right.
         
        Lord Have mercy on me.. a sinner
         
        Thanks
         
        Alex
         


         
        On 11/15/06, hayam gorgi <dr_hayam_adel@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        ÇÐä Ýì ÇáßäÇÆÓ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÇáÃÎÑì íæÌÏ ÈØÇÑßÉ ßÇäæÇ ÃÓÇÞÝÉ ÃÕáÇ ÞÈá ÑÓÇãÊåã ÈØÇÑßÉ æ åã áÇ íØÈÞæÇ åÐå ÇáÌÒÆíÉ  ãä  ÞÑÇÑÇÊ äíÞíÉ ¡ ÇíÖÇ ÇáÈÇÈÇ íæÍäÇ ÈæáÓ ÇáËÇäì ßÇä ÃÓÞÝÇ ÞÈá ÑÓÇãÊå ÈÇÈÇ áÑæãÇ


        arbible <mnkamel@hotmail. com> wrote:
        Dear Samy,

        Please note that Nicea Canon 15 is no longer applied in other
        Churches. For example, the current Patriarch of Jerusalem, His
        Beatitude Patriarch Theophilus III (Giannopoulos) , was formerly
        the Archbishop of Tabor:
        http://orthodoxwiki .org/Theophilus_ III_%28Giannopou los%29_of_ Jerusalem

        Similarly, the current Ecumenical Patriarch, His All-Holiness
        Patriarch Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople, was
        previously Metropolitan of Philadelphia between 1973-1990 (succeeded
        by Meliton (Karas)) and Metropolitan of Chalcedon from 1990-1991
        (succeeded by Joachim (Neradjoulis) ):
        http://orthodoxwiki .org/Bartholomew _I_%28Archontoni s%29_of_Constant inople

        Yours in Christ,
        --arbible
        Check out:
        http://ar.orthodoxw iki.org/

        --- In arbible@yahoogroups .com, "Modern Discussion" <selmasry7@.. .>
        wrote:
        >
        > ÇáÞæÇäíä ÇáßäÓíÉ áÇäÊÎÇÈ ÈÇÈÇ ÇáÅÓßäÏÑíÉ... æÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ
        > < http://www.rezgar. com/debat/ show.art. asp?t=0&aid=80855>
        >

         


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      • mark jak
        dear dr hayam,& mr alex sorry to interrupt you, but my narrow point of view is that we are- as coptic orthodox-, claim that we follow traditions of fathers
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 16, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          dear dr hayam,& mr alex
          sorry to interrupt you, but my narrow point  of view is that we are- as coptic orthodox-, claim that we follow traditions of fathers and canons, but in real, we dont, and insist we r protecting these canons, and in same time, we attack ather churches who made changes according to thier needs ,or what ever,
           
          markoo

          hayam gorgi <dr_hayam_adel@...> wrote:
          dear Mr Alex
          peace and grace to you
          please read again my brief comment , was only stating what has happened and did not call for following ( the others ) . actually i need to know why did the other churches change or did not follow the canon , there must be a reason that i do not know ! am sorry if my brief words are easily misunderstood . am learning from all of you and am not qualified enough to judje these matters, may differ with some but its ok to differ , it is a sign of life provided we all respect christian morals and follow Jesus' steps . there are so many issues that are completely new to me in this dicussion and i learnt that we are ALL weak humans that can make mistakes . what really matters is that one should repent ,confess and correct his path . most of this generation learnt from both Pope Shenouda and Fr Matta and therefore respect both of them and did not look upon them as  opponents till only recently ... this is a fact . that is why so many people feel great pain seeing this battle on behalf of the church.for myself in  my simple thinking what really matters to me is to live with Jesus love and this is the most important issue to me  specially that no one can take this away from me in His Name and i admit that i leave these issues to those who are more qualified and have more knowledge  than me but i read ,listen and learn. may God protect His church .
          dr hayam
           

          Alex Rauer <alex.rauer@gmail. com> wrote:
          Dear Dr. Hayam, Professor Bebawi, Mr. Sami, Dr. William and all ArBible readers
          Please correct me if I am wrong, tell me if I am right.
          We did not confess yet nor approved that we changed the law at the Coptic Orthodox Church, but even we accused other Orthodox Churches that they are changing the Tradition step by step, subject by subject, and the election of the Patriarchs is one of these things.
           
          I was listening to anba Bishoy attacking the Greek Orthodox in Lebanon and Syria (and the whole world) when he accused them that they reduced their lent and other fasting periods(seasons) , by taking out (lifting) one week the cheese, the other week the meat, ...etc so they slowly come to an end. ( They call it the week of lifting cheese, the week of lifting the meat)and he said we are the only Church on the earth, on the entire surface of the Globe, who never changed a letter, or a prayer or ANY thing at ALL.
           
          YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE ELECTION OF Anba Shenouda legal, ( 1 case for 1 person), by any way, cause you can not accept the Truth that it is niether right nor legal, and it was done against the Old Tradition of the Catholic and Aposltolic Church. In addition I say without the blessing of the whole Coptic Synode at that time (1971-1972), so now you are saying since other Orthodox Churches change it why not , Why not Us ??
          Dr. Hayam even went so FAR, since the Catholic Pope are picked up from Cardinals, why do not we do the same thing  ???????????? ????????? ????????? ????? they are a big church ......
           Are you / we are having the Catholic Church our Source of law, follow them now 
          Are we following the Catholic Church now?????,
          Do we beleive in every thing they do and say ????
           
          let us go THEN  to their Liturgy , accept their Eucharist, confess with their Priests, let us even not waste our time and be under them ( that will be on the dead body of some we know)
           
          My point is we ARE (the Coptic Orthodox Church) known as a Church who NEVER EVER, I REPEAT, NEVER EVER OR WILL NEVER EVER, IN THE PAST OR THE FUTURE; CHANGE ANY LAWS / TRADITION AS WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE IT, NEITHER ANY ONE ELSE.
           
          Why in the world we want NOW to Change ONLY this part, to adaot / Match Anba Shenouda's desire ??????????
          Why we are not imitating other Orthodox Church in all the past centuries IN ALL AND EVERY THING THEY CHANGED AND DID ???????????? ??? 
           
          Logically, if we approve that change, let us approve other changes, can we also accept the marriage of the bishops, in the same level, we are giving the right to others like Max Michele to be right ?????
           
          Are you telling me that we are not a Traditional Church any more and things are NOW subject to changes ?????

          Please tell me YES or NO, as I like to hear it, then I will give you my final opinion and answer.
           
          Either we Open ALL the doors of any and all changes (and FOR changes) then it will turn out to be Totally another church totally different than the Original one, or REFUSE COMPLETELY and TOTALLY any changes AT ALL.
           
          Then forget about the Martyrs, confessors.. ......... .etc (and Million etc......... .)
           
          Can we change the Mass, the Liturgies, all prayers,  etc.... make it short ?????????
          Change the Lent and make it short ???????????? ?????
          Let the bishops getting married ???????????? ???
           
           
          Why not, if Changes are OK  ???????? if OTHER CHURCHES did it ????? common, hey..
           
          Got My Point ???????????? ????????, please let me know, I beg you for an answer..
           
          Anba Shenouda now, after his enthrone, not Ordination, cause he did not get Ordination, they called it ( Wad7 Al Ayady ), cause Pope Kirellos ordinated him once already before and he can't get ordined twice. ( still do not get it  ???????????? ???????)
           
          Anba Shenouda after that;  increased the number or GENERAL BISHOPS, and  ordained only who are following him, to get majority in the Synod without any opposite opinions, and who ever has an opposite opinion against his, will be a done deal, dead by the terrorist act of anba bishoy.
           
          Do you need details ????? ask Bishop Grill, that is his job, and that is why he is getting all of his false power.
           
          We need to listen to other opinions like what ever Sami El Masry published, to listen to what ever The Late Abouna Bishoy Kamel said before and Published in Writing, yes Abouna Bishoy Kamel, and Iris El Masry, the best and greatest historian of the Coptic Church in this decade.....
           
           
          Just listen may be the truth is there....... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... .....
           
          And I really need your feed back, again I will end as I started , asking me either to correct me if I am wrong or tell me I am right.
           
          Lord Have mercy on me.. a sinner
           
          Thanks
           
          Alex
           


           
          On 11/15/06, hayam gorgi <dr_hayam_adel@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          ÇÐä Ýì ÇáßäÇÆÓ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÇáÃÎÑì íæÌÏ ÈØÇÑßÉ ßÇäæÇ ÃÓÇÞÝÉ ÃÕáÇ ÞÈá ÑÓÇãÊåã ÈØÇÑßÉ æ åã áÇ íØÈÞæÇ åÐå ÇáÌÒÆíÉ  ãä  ÞÑÇÑÇÊ äíÞíÉ ¡ ÇíÖÇ ÇáÈÇÈÇ íæÍäÇ ÈæáÓ ÇáËÇäì ßÇä ÃÓÞÝÇ ÞÈá ÑÓÇãÊå ÈÇÈÇ áÑæãÇ


          arbible <mnkamel@hotmail. com> wrote:
          Dear Samy,

          Please note that Nicea Canon 15 is no longer applied in other
          Churches. For example, the current Patriarch of Jerusalem, His
          Beatitude Patriarch Theophilus III (Giannopoulos) , was formerly
          the Archbishop of Tabor:
          http://orthodoxwiki .org/Theophilus_ III_%28Giannopou los%29_of_ Jerusalem

          Similarly, the current Ecumenical Patriarch, His All-Holiness
          Patriarch Bartholomew I (Archontonis) of Constantinople, was
          previously Metropolitan of Philadelphia between 1973-1990 (succeeded
          by Meliton (Karas)) and Metropolitan of Chalcedon from 1990-1991
          (succeeded by Joachim (Neradjoulis) ):
          http://orthodoxwiki .org/Bartholomew _I_%28Archontoni s%29_of_Constant inople

          Yours in Christ,
          --arbible
          Check out:
          http://ar.orthodoxw iki.org/

          --- In arbible@yahoogroups .com, "Modern Discussion" <selmasry7@.. .>
          wrote:
          >
          > ÇáÞæÇäíä ÇáßäÓíÉ áÇäÊÎÇÈ ÈÇÈÇ ÇáÅÓßäÏÑíÉ... æÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ
          > < http://www.rezgar. com/debat/ show.art. asp?t=0&aid=80855>
          >

           


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