Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen

Expand Messages
  • arbible
    Q: You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 25, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Q:
      You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was
      a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not
      change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal
      conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
      during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope
      Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the
      seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but
      Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the
      life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a
      teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,
      read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he
      published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our
      educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this
      monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our
      church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of
      heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of
      Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian
      but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but
      sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example
      about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,
      the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the
      human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God
      when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So
      Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.
      John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human
      nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and
      was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that
      any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You
      cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I
      think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.
      At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the
      church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the
      churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't
      accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took the chance and made an
      alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of
      his popularity among our people.
      Q:
      So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic
      church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
      over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue
      his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to
      respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness
      Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the
      people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or
      going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but
      they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the
      church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what
      we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform
      the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation
      with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.
      Q:
      Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
      the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to
      Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad
      idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to
      the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I
      think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are
      Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking
      about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?
      If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son
      of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
      Q:
      So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the
      seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.
      Q:
      You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no
      bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
      Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some
      years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.
      Q:
      You took them back also? You welcomed them?
      Metropolitan Bishoi:
      Yes.
       
      Source:
      Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic
      Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
      Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
      [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].


      Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
    • Dalia Hanna
      ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 26, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
         
        æ ÔßÑÇ


        arbible <arbible@...> wrote:
        Q:
        You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was
        a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not
        change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal
        conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
        during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope
        Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the
        seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but
        Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the
        life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a
        teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,
        read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he
        published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our
        educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this
        monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our
        church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of
        heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of
        Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian
        but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but
        sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example
        about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,
        the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the
        human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God
        when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So
        Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.
        John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human
        nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and
        was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that
        any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You
        cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I
        think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.
        At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the
        church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the
        churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't
        accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took the chance and made an
        alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of
        his popularity among our people.
        Q:
        So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic
        church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
        over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue
        his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to
        respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness
        Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the
        people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or
        going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but
        they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the
        church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what
        we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform
        the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation
        with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.
        Q:
        Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
        the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to
        Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad
        idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to
        the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I
        think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are
        Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking
        about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?
        If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son
        of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
        Q:
        So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the
        seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.
        Q:
        You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no
        bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
        Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some
        years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.
        Q:
        You took them back also? You welcomed them?
        Metropolitan Bishoi:
        Yes.
         
        Source:
        Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic
        Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
        Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
        [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

        Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.


        Do you Yahoo!?
        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

      • Coptic By_Nature
        ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 29, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÅØáÇÞ. æÐáß ÈÔåÇÏÉ ÃÚÙã ÚáãÇÁ ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã. ÞÈá ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ßÇäÊ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇááÇåæÊíÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÖÍáÉ æÊÎÈØ Èíä ÇáÝßÑ ÇáÈÑæÊæÓÊäÊí æÇáßÇËæáíßí æßáÇåãÇ ÝßÑ ÛÑÈí ÈÚíÏ ÊãÇãÇ Úä ÑæÍ ÇáÂÈÇÁ æÇáÊÞáíÏ ÇáßäÓí ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí.
           
          ßá ãä íÊÔßß ÃÏÚæå áÞÑÇÁÉ ßÊÈ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáÚãáÇÞÉ æÝÍÕåÇ áãÚÑÝÉ ãÏì ÚÙãÉ åÐå ÇáßÊÈ æãÏì ÇáÚØÇÁ æÇáÛäì ÇáÐí ÃÕÈÛå ÇáÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ Úáì åÐÇ ÇáÌíá ãä ÃÌá ÇÍÊíÇÌå.  
           
           


          Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote:
          ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
           
          æ ÔßÑÇ


          arbible <arbible@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Q:
          You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was
          a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not
          change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal
          conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
          during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope
          Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the
          seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but
          Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the
          life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a
          teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,
          read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he
          published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our
          educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this
          monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our
          church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of
          heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of
          Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian
          but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but
          sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example
          about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,
          the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the
          human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God
          when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So
          Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.
          John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human
          nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and
          was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that
          any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You
          cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I
          think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.
          At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the
          church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the
          churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't
          accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took the chance and made an
          alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of
          his popularity among our people.
          Q:
          So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic
          church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
          over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue
          his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to
          respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness
          Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the
          people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or
          going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but
          they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the
          church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what
          we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform
          the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation
          with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.
          Q:
          Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
          the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to
          Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad
          idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to
          the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I
          think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are
          Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking
          about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?
          If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son
          of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
          Q:
          So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the
          seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.
          Q:
          You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no
          bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
          Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some
          years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.
          Q:
          You took them back also? You welcomed them?
          Metropolitan Bishoi:
          Yes.
           
          Source:
          Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic
          Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
          Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
          [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.


          Do you Yahoo!?
          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.


          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
        • arbible
          The names of the books in question are mentioned in these 1991/2003 recordings of HH Pope Shenouda III (in Arabic):
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 30, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            The names of the books in question are mentioned in these 1991/2003
            recordings of HH Pope Shenouda III (in Arabic):
            http://www.zeitun-eg.org/PopeShenoudaIIIs_reply_concerning_the_opinions_of_FrMattaElMeskeen_1991.zip
            God Bless.
            > Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote: ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ
            ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ
            ÇáÍÏíË
            >
          • Dalia Hanna
            شكرا على الأهتمام و لكن أعذرنى فيما سأقوله ، عندما أريد أن اسمع أو أقرأ تعليق عن كتب
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 30, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              ÔßÑÇ" Úáì ÇáÃåÊãÇã
              æ áßä ÃÚÐÑäì ÝíãÇ ÓÃÞæáå ¡ ÚäÏãÇ ÃÑíÏ Ãä ÇÓãÚ Ãæ ÃÞÑàÊÚáíÞ Úä ßÊÈ ÇáÂÈ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä áä íßæä ÃÈÏÇ" ááÈÇÈÇ ÔäæÏå ãÚ ßá ÅÍÊÑÇãì ÇáÔÏíÏ áßá ãÇ íßÊÈ Ãæ íÚÙ æ ÞÏ ÞÑÃÊ æ ÓãÚÊ áå ßËíÑÇ" æ ßËíÑÇ" ãÇ æÌÏÊ Ýì äÝÓì ÅÞÊäÇÚ ßÇãá ÈãÇ íÞæá Ãæ íßÊÈ æ áßä Ýì åÐÇ ÇáãæÖæÚ ÈÇáÊÍÏíÏ áä ÃÓãÚ áå ÃßËÑ ããÇ ÓãÚÊ  ÓÇÈÞÇ ¡ ÑÈãÇ ÃÓãÚ áÃÍÏ ÂÎÑ Ýì åÐÇ ÇáãæÖæÚ
              æ áãÇÐÇ áÇ ÊÓãÚæä ÃäÊã ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÑÃì ÇáÂÎÑ ÃíÖÇ æ áßäå ááÃÓÝ ÇáÔÏíÏ ÞÏ ãÇÊ æ áã íÑÏ Ýì ÍíÇÊå Ýåá ÓíÌÏ ãä íÑÏ Ýì ããÇÊå ¿
              ÃÚÑÝ Ãä åÐÇ ÇáÑÃì ãä Çáããßä Ãä íßæä ÛíÑ ãÞÈæá áäÇÓ ßËíÑíä ÝÃÚÊÐÑ áåã ãÞÏãÇ" Ýåæ ãÌÑÏ ÑÃì áÇ ÃÍÏ ãáÒã Ãä íÞÊäÚ Èå

              arbible <mnkamel@...> wrote:
              The names of the books in question are mentioned in these 1991/2003
              recordings of HH Pope Shenouda III (in Arabic):
              http://www.zeitun- eg.org/PopeSheno udaIIIs_reply_ concerning_ the_opinions_ of_FrMattaElMesk een_1991. zip
              God Bless.
              > Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@ ...> wrote: ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ
              ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ
              ÇáÍÏíË
              >



              Do you Yahoo!?
              Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

            • Medhat Maurice
              æáÚáäì ÇÖíÝ Çäå ãä ÃÚÙã ÇááÇåæÊííä Ýì ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ãä ÑÈØ ÇáÊÚáíã æÇááÇåæÊ ÈÇáÍíÇÉ ÇáãÚÇÔÉ
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 30, 2006
              • 0 Attachment

                ولعلنى اضيف انه من أعظم اللاهوتيين فى المسيحية من ربط التعليم واللاهوت بالحياة المعاشة والتطبيق الروحي والعملي

                بدلا من ننقض الرجل العظيم الذي له من ثمار الخدمة والوزنان الرائعة ما لا يحصى ولا يعد تعالوا نتمثل بسيرتهم وإيمانهم وثمارهم

                يا له من شقاء وتعاسة وتعب انه دائما نركز على الجزء الفارغ من الكأس

                أضم صوتي إلى كل من نصحه ليقرءا الكتب التي أنتجها أبونا متى ليتعلم كيف يرضى الله كيف انه كان يبشر بما يؤمن به

                لتدعونا للشقاق فأنت اصغر من ذلك بكثير ولا تلعب بالنار فأنها أول ما تلسع قد تحرقك أنت شخصيا

                يا صديقي اننى أخاف عليك من يدينونه هذا الأب الورع والمعلم الفذ وأرجو ان تصلى إن يغفر الرب لك ويسامحك ويعطيك من شبعه ودسم بيته

                والرب معكم

                مدحت موريس

                 

                 

                From: arbible@yahoogroups.com [mailto: arbible@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen

                 

                تعتبر كتابا ت أبونا متى المسكين هي أعظم كتابات روحية لاهوتية أرثوذكسية صدرت باللغة العربية على الإطلاق. وذلك بشهادة أعظم علماء اللاهوت الأرثوذكس في العالم. قبل أبونا متى كانت الكتابات اللاهوتية العربية في الكنيسة القبطية عبارة عن كتابات ضحلة وتخبط بين الفكر البروتوستنتي والكاثوليكي وكلاهما فكر غربي بعيد تماما عن روح الآباء والتقليد الكنسي الأرثوذكسي.

                 

                كل من يتشكك أدعوه لقراءة كتب أبونا متى العملاقة وفحصها لمعرفة مدى عظمة هذه الكتب ومدى العطاء والغنى الذي أصبغه الروح القدس على هذا الجيل من أجل احتياجه. 

                 

                 



                Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote:

                رجاء إعلامنا بأسماء الكتب أو المقالات التى أتسمت بالهرطقة و المغالطات المنسوبة إليه فى هذا الحديث

                 

                و شكرا



                arbible <arbible@yahoo. com> wrote:

                Q:

                You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt , and started fundamentalism. And it was

                a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not

                change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal

                conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and

                during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope

                Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the

                seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but

                Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the

                life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a

                teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,

                read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he

                published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our

                educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this

                monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our

                church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of

                heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of

                Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian

                but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but

                sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example

                about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,

                the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the

                human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God

                when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So

                Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.

                John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human

                nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and

                was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that

                any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You

                cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I

                think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.

                At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the

                church because of terrorism in Egypt , the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the

                churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't

                accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan . So he took the chance and made an

                alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of

                his popularity among our people.

                Q:

                So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic

                church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was

                over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue

                his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to

                respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness

                Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the

                people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or

                going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but

                they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the

                church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what

                we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform

                the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation

                with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.

                Q:

                Is this also why his books are not available in churches?

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against

                the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to

                Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad

                idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to

                the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I

                think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are

                Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking

                about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?

                If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son

                of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?

                Q:

                So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the

                seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.

                Q:

                You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no

                bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios

                Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some

                years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.

                Q:

                You took them back also? You welcomed them?

                Metropolitan Bishoi:

                Yes.

                 

                Source:

                Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic

                Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002

                Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson

                [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

                http://www.cawu. org/cawu_ docs/Coptic% 20Orthodox% 20Christianity% 20in%20Egypt. pdf


                Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                 


                Do you Yahoo!?
                Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                 

                 


                Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

              • Medhat Maurice
                Çíä ßÇä ÇáÇÎÑæä ÚäÏãÇ ÈÏÁ ÇÈæäÇ ãÊì ÎÏãÊå æáãÇÐÇ áã íÏÇä æíÍÇßã Úáì åÑØÞÊå ÇáãÒÚæãÉ Ýì
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 30, 2006
                • 0 Attachment

                  اين كان الاخرون عندما بدء ابونا متى خدمته ولماذا لم يدان ويحاكم  على هرطقته المزعومة فى وقت حياته بدلا من ان يمس سيرته العطرة بعد انتقاله ونياحته ؟

                  ليعطيك الرب فهما فى كل شىء

                   

                   

                   


                  From: arbible@yahoogroups.com [mailto: arbible@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                  Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                  To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen

                   

                  تعتبر كتابا ت أبونا متى المسكين هي أعظم كتابات روحية لاهوتية أرثوذكسية صدرت باللغة العربية على الإطلاق. وذلك بشهادة أعظم علماء اللاهوت الأرثوذكس في العالم. قبل أبونا متى كانت الكتابات اللاهوتية العربية في الكنيسة القبطية عبارة عن كتابات ضحلة وتخبط بين الفكر البروتوستنتي والكاثوليكي وكلاهما فكر غربي بعيد تماما عن روح الآباء والتقليد الكنسي الأرثوذكسي.

                   

                  كل من يتشكك أدعوه لقراءة كتب أبونا متى العملاقة وفحصها لمعرفة مدى عظمة هذه الكتب ومدى العطاء والغنى الذي أصبغه الروح القدس على هذا الجيل من أجل احتياجه. 

                   

                   



                  Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote:

                  رجاء إعلامنا بأسماء الكتب أو المقالات التى أتسمت بالهرطقة و المغالطات المنسوبة إليه فى هذا الحديث

                   

                  و شكرا



                  arbible <arbible@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  Q:

                  You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt , and started fundamentalism. And it was

                  a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not

                  change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal

                  conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and

                  during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope

                  Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the

                  seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but

                  Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the

                  life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a

                  teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,

                  read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he

                  published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our

                  educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this

                  monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our

                  church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of

                  heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of

                  Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian

                  but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but

                  sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example

                  about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,

                  the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the

                  human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God

                  when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So

                  Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.

                  John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human

                  nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and

                  was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that

                  any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You

                  cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I

                  think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.

                  At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the

                  church because of terrorism in Egypt , the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the

                  churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't

                  accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan . So he took the chance and made an

                  alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of

                  his popularity among our people.

                  Q:

                  So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic

                  church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was

                  over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue

                  his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to

                  respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness

                  Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the

                  people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or

                  going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but

                  they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the

                  church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what

                  we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform

                  the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation

                  with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.

                  Q:

                  Is this also why his books are not available in churches?

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against

                  the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to

                  Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad

                  idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to

                  the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I

                  think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are

                  Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking

                  about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?

                  If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son

                  of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?

                  Q:

                  So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the

                  seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.

                  Q:

                  You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no

                  bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios

                  Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some

                  years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.

                  Q:

                  You took them back also? You welcomed them?

                  Metropolitan Bishoi:

                  Yes.

                   

                  Source:

                  Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic

                  Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002

                  Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson

                  [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

                  http://www.cawu. org/cawu_ docs/Coptic% 20Orthodox% 20Christianity% 20in%20Egypt. pdf


                  Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                   


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                   

                   


                  Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                • moheb saleb
                  ÓÄÇáí Ýí ÇáÞÇäæä ÇáßäíÓí ÇáÐí ÇÚÑÝ Ýíå ÇáÞáíá åá íÍá áÇÓÞÝ Çí ßÇä ãÑÊÈÊå Çä íÏíä ßÊÇÈÇÊ
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 30, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment

                    ����� �� ������� ������� ���� ���� ���  ������

                    �� ��� ����� �� ��� ������ �� ���� ������ ��� �� ����� ��� �� ������ ���  ���� ������ ������� ��� ����� �������  �����

                    ����� ���� ���  ����  ��� �������  �� ���� ��� �� ����  ��  ���� ��� ���� �� ������ �� ���� 

                    ������� ����������  ������ ���� ������  ������ �� ��  ������ ������� �� ��� �� ���

                    ���� ����� ��� ������� ����� ����� ����� ������ ���� ����� �� ������� ����  ���� �� ��������  ���� �� ���� �������

                    �� �����  ��� ������ ������ ���� ���� ������ ��

                    ����� �� ������ �� ���� ���� ���� ����

                    ��� ����

                     


                    From: "Medhat Maurice" <pub_reltns1_m@...>
                    Reply-To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                    To: <arbible@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: RE: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                    Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:10:36 +0300

                    ������ ���� ��� �� ���� ���������� �� �������� �� ��� ������� �������� ������� ������� �������� ������ �������

                    ���� �� ���� ����� ������ ���� �� �� ���� ������ �������� ������� �� �� ���� ��� ��� ������ ����� ������� �������� �������

                    �� �� �� ���� ������ ���� ��� ����� ���� ��� ����� ������ �� �����

                    ��� ���� ��� �� �� ���� ������ ����� ���� ������ ����� ��� ������ ��� ���� ���� ��� ��� ��� ���� ��� ���� ��

                    ������� ������ ���� ���� �� ��� ����� ��� ���� ������ ����� ��� �� ���� �� ����� ��� �����

                    �� ����� ���� ���� ���� �� ������� ��� ���� ����� ������� ���� ����� �� ���� �� ���� ���� �� ������� ������ �� ���� ���� ����

                    ����� ����

                    ���� �����

                     

                     

                    From: arbible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arbible@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                    Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                    To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen

                     

                    ����� ����� � ����� ��� ������� �� ���� ������ ����� ������� ��������� ���� ������ ������� ��� �������. ���� ������ ���� ����� ������� ��������� �� ������. ��� ����� ��� ���� �������� ��������� ������� �� ������� ������� ����� �� ������ ���� ����� ��� ����� ������������ ����������� ������� ��� ���� ���� ����� �� ��� ������ �������� ������ ����������.

                     

                    �� �� ����� ����� ������ ��� ����� ��� �������� ������ ������ ��� ���� ��� ����� ���� ������ ������ ���� ����� ����� ����� ��� ��� ����� �� ��� �������. 

                     

                     



                    Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote:

                    ���� ������� ������ ����� �� �������� ���� ����� �������� � ��������� �������� ���� �� ��� ������

                     

                    � ����



                    arbible <arbible@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    Q:

                    You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was

                    a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not

                    change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal

                    conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and

                    during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope

                    Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the

                    seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but

                    Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the

                    life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a

                    teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,

                    read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he

                    published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our

                    educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this

                    monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our

                    church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of

                    heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of

                    Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian

                    but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but

                    sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example

                    about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,

                    the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the

                    human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God

                    when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So

                    Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.

                    John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human

                    nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and

                    was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that

                    any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You

                    cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I

                    think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.

                    At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the

                    church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the

                    churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't

                    accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took the chance and made an

                    alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of

                    his popularity among our people.

                    Q:

                    So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic

                    church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was

                    over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue

                    his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to

                    respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness

                    Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the

                    people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or

                    going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but

                    they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the

                    church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what

                    we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform

                    the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation

                    with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.

                    Q:

                    Is this also why his books are not available in churches?

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against

                    the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to

                    Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad

                    idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to

                    the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I

                    think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are

                    Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking

                    about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?

                    If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son

                    of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?

                    Q:

                    So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the

                    seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.

                    Q:

                    You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no

                    bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios

                    Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some

                    years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.

                    Q:

                    You took them back also? You welcomed them?

                    Metropolitan Bishoi:

                    Yes.

                     

                    Source:

                    Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic

                    Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002

                    Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson

                    [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

                    http://www.cawu. org/cawu_ docs/Coptic% 20Orthodox% 20Christianity% 20in%20Egypt. pdf


                    Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less.

                     


                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                     

                     


                    Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2�/min or less.


                    ><< image001.gif >>

                    ><< smime.p7s >>

                    >CEOSS
                    >Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services
                    >1331 Dr Ahmed Zaki St El Nozha El-Gidida
                    >PO Box 162-11811 Panorama,Cairo,Egypt
                    >Tel: (202) 622-1425/6/7/8 - Fax: (202) 622-1434
                    >www.ceoss.org.eg

                  • Coptic Truth
                    لجنة الدفاع عن الأرثوذكسية في الكنيسة القبطية Coptic Truth تقوم بالرد على الاتهامات المزيفة
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 31, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                      Coptic Truth  
                      ÊÞæã  ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÇÊåÇãÇÊ ÇáãÒíÝÉ ÇáãæÌåÉ ÖÏ ÇáãÊäíÍ ÇáÃÈ ãÊíøó ÇáãÓßíä æÛíÑå ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÇáÂÊí
                       
                      http://au.geocities.com/coptic_truth01/
                       
                       ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ æÞÏ ÞÇãÊ ÈãÍÇæÑÉ ßá ãä
                      äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ
                      äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä
                      äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí
                      ÞÏÇÓÉ ÇáÈÇÈÇ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáËÇáË  
                      ÇáÍæÇÑ Ôãá ÍÊì ÇáÂä ãæÖæÚíä ÝÞØ åãÇ ÇáåÑØÞÇÊ Íæá  ÓÑ ÇáÅÝÎÇÑÓÊíÇ æÇáÊÃáå
                      ÇáãæÞÚ ÊÍÊ ÇáÊÃÓíÓ æãÇ ÒÇá áÏíäÇ ãÞÇáÇÊ ßËíÑ É ÌÇÑí ÅÚÏÇÏåÇ ááäÔÑ
                       
                       


                      moheb saleb <mohebsaleb@...> wrote:
                      ÓÄÇáí Ýí ÇáÞÇäæä ÇáßäíÓí ÇáÐí ÇÚÑÝ Ýíå  ÇáÞáíá
                      åá íÍá áÇÓÞÝ Çí ßÇä ãÑÊÈÊå Çä íÏíä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇÍÏ Çæ ÇÝßÇÑ ÇÍÏ Çæ ÊÚÇáíã ÇÍÏ  ÈÏæä ãÍÇßãå ÇáÇÝßÇÑ Úáí ãÓÊæí ÇáßäíÓå  ßãÌãÚ
                      ÇáÇãÑ ÎØíÑ ÝÇä  íßæä  Úáã ÇááÇåæÊ  åæ äÊÇÌ ÔÎÕ Ôí ÎØíÑ  Çä  íßæä ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ åæ ÇáãÑÌÚ Ôí ÎØíÑ 
                      ÇáßäíÓå ÇáßÇËæáßíå  ÇáÈÇÈÇ íÞæá ÇááÚÙå  ãßÊæÈå áå ãä  áÇåæÊí ÇáßäíÓå Çí äÍä ãä Ðáß
                      ãÇåæ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÇÏÇäå ßÎØíå íÍÇÓÈ ÚáíåÇ ÇáãÓíÍ áÇäå ÊßÓíÑ Ýí ÇáßäíÓå ÌÓÏå  æÈíä ÕÏ ÇáåÑÇØÞå  ÇáíÓ åæ ãÌãÚ ÇáßäíÓå
                      Ëã áãÇÐÇ  ÕäÚ ÇáãÌãÚ ÇáãÞÏÓ ÇáíÓ áåÐå ÇáÇãæÑ Çã
                      ááØáÈ ãä ÇáßÇåä Çä íáÈÓ ÔÑÇÈ ÈÔßá ÏÇÆã
                      ãÍÈ æÏíÚ
                       

                      From: "Medhat Maurice" <pub_reltns1_ m@.... EG>
                      Reply-To: arbible@yahoogroups .com
                      To: <arbible@yahoogroups .com>
                      Subject: RE: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                      Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:10:36 +0300

                      æáÚáäì ÇÖíÝ Çäå ãä ÃÚÙã ÇááÇåæÊííä Ýì ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ãä ÑÈØ ÇáÊÚáíã æÇááÇåæÊ ÈÇáÍíÇÉ ÇáãÚÇÔÉ æÇáÊØÈíÞ ÇáÑæÍí æÇáÚãáí
                      ÈÏáÇ ãä ääÞÖ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÚÙíã ÇáÐí áå ãä ËãÇÑ ÇáÎÏãÉ æÇáæÒäÇä ÇáÑÇÆÚÉ ãÇ áÇ íÍÕì æáÇ íÚÏ ÊÚÇáæÇ äÊãËá ÈÓíÑÊåã æÅíãÇäåã æËãÇÑåã
                      íÇ áå ãä ÔÞÇÁ æÊÚÇÓÉ æÊÚÈ Çäå ÏÇÆãÇ äÑßÒ Úáì ÇáÌÒÁ ÇáÝÇÑÛ ãä ÇáßÃÓ
                      ÃÖã ÕæÊí Åáì ßá ãä äÕÍå áíÞÑÁÇ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáÊí ÃäÊÌåÇ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì áíÊÚáã ßíÝ íÑÖì Çááå ßíÝ Çäå ßÇä íÈÔÑ ÈãÇ íÄãä Èå
                      áÊÏÚæäÇ ááÔÞÇÞ ÝÃäÊ ÇÕÛÑ ãä Ðáß ÈßËíÑ æáÇ ÊáÚÈ ÈÇáäÇÑ ÝÃäåÇ Ãæá ãÇ ÊáÓÚ ÞÏ ÊÍÑÞß ÃäÊ ÔÎÕíÇ
                      íÇ ÕÏíÞí Çääì ÃÎÇÝ Úáíß ãä íÏíäæäå åÐÇ ÇáÃÈ ÇáæÑÚ æÇáãÚáã ÇáÝÐ æÃÑÌæ Çä ÊÕáì Åä íÛÝÑ ÇáÑÈ áß æíÓÇãÍß æíÚØíß ãä ÔÈÚå æÏÓã ÈíÊå
                      æÇáÑÈ ãÚßã
                      ãÏÍÊ ãæÑíÓ
                       
                       
                      From: arbible@yahoogroups .com [mailto:arbible@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                      Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                      To: arbible@yahoogroups .com
                      Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                       
                      ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÅØáÇÞ. æÐáß ÈÔåÇÏÉ ÃÚÙã ÚáãÇÁ ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã. ÞÈá ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ßÇäÊ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇááÇåæÊíÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÖÍáÉ æÊÎÈØ Èíä ÇáÝßÑ ÇáÈÑæÊæÓÊäÊí æÇáßÇËæáíßí æßáÇåãÇ ÝßÑ ÛÑÈí ÈÚíÏ ÊãÇãÇ Úä ÑæÍ ÇáÂÈÇÁ æÇáÊÞáíÏ ÇáßäÓí ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí.
                       
                      ßá ãä íÊÔßß ÃÏÚæå áÞÑÇÁÉ ßÊÈ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáÚãáÇÞÉ æÝÍÕåÇ áãÚÑÝÉ ãÏì ÚÙãÉ åÐå ÇáßÊÈ æãÏì ÇáÚØÇÁ æÇáÛäì ÇáÐí ÃÕÈÛå ÇáÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ Úáì åÐÇ ÇáÌíá ãä ÃÌá ÇÍÊíÇÌå. 
                       
                       


                      Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
                       
                      æ ÔßÑÇ


                      arbible <arbible@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      Q:
                      You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started fundamentalism. And it was
                      a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem with which did not
                      change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there is as I heard it a personal
                      conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and Papa Shenouda.
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
                      during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope Shenouda. But Pope
                      Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly qualified in the
                      seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before Pope Shenouda but
                      Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His first book was about the
                      life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still a layman and a
                      teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a theological school,
                      read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever he read, which he
                      published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing much trouble for our
                      educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the problem with this
                      monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to the teaching of our
                      church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can say that he is a type of
                      heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century between St. Peter of
                      Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not a liberal theologian
                      but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not always liberal theology but
                      sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem. I'll give you one example
                      about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after the resurrection of our Lord,
                      the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of God was united to the
                      human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the incarnation of the Son of God
                      when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was united together. So
                      Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St. Peter or St. Paul or St.
                      John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature united to human
                      nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started in Him in Bethlehem and
                      was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching because he is saying that
                      any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we don't accept that. You
                      cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church, nobody can accept this I
                      think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his erroneous teaching.
                      At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition between Sadat and the
                      church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement and attacks on the
                      churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia in Egypt which we didn't
                      accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took the chance and made an
                      alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful for him. He lost most of
                      his popularity among our people.
                      Q:
                      So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not belong to the Coptic
                      church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in this situation?
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
                      over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done. He couldn't continue
                      his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong. What we are doing is to
                      respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching everywhere by His Holiness
                      Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests. We speak openly to the
                      people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating his erroneous teaching or
                      going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published his teachings in books, but
                      they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a trial for his disciples in the
                      church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it difficult to do more than what
                      we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce this. Sometimes we inform
                      the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to have a confrontation
                      with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be judged by the church.
                      Q:
                      Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
                      the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would accept that he is equal to
                      Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are equal to him? It is a mad
                      idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because how can we be equal to
                      the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That is what I
                      think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-Christians when we say that we are
                      Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics because we are speaking
                      about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man who became god?
                      If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is God, who is the eternal Son
                      of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
                      Q:
                      So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in the
                      seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts this, especially bishops.
                      Q:
                      You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and that also there are no
                      bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
                      Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They transferred and after some
                      years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so many.
                      Q:
                      You took them back also? You welcomed them?
                      Metropolitan Bishoi:
                      Yes.
                       
                      Source:
                      Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic
                      Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
                      Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
                      [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].

                      Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                       

                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                       
                       

                      Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                      ><< image001.gif >>
                      ><< smime.p7s >>
                      >CEOSS
                      >Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services
                      >1331 Dr Ahmed Zaki St El Nozha El-Gidida
                      >PO Box 162-11811 Panorama,Cairo, Egypt
                      >Tel: (202) 622-1425/6/7/ 8 - Fax: (202) 622-1434
                      >www.ceoss.org. eg

                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                    • arbible
                      Dear All, HG Anba Moussa has been teaching us in PalTalk the other day that no person is without mistakes and no person is all wrong. This reminded me of the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 1, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear All,

                        HG Anba Moussa has been teaching us in PalTalk the other day that no
                        person is without mistakes and no person is all wrong. This reminded
                        me of the controversies surrounding St. Augustine (he supported the
                        Filioque, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son,
                        which all Orthodox Churches reject), and in our times the late
                        saintly Fr Seraphim Rose and his theory of Toll-Houses (see
                        http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Seraphim_Rose under: Criticism & debate).

                        St. Photius (an Eastern Orthodox saint, Patriarch of Constantinople
                        858 – 861 and 878 – 886) argues that although these fathers were
                        endowed with holiness, they were at the same time human and not
                        exempt from slipping into error. He wrote:

                        "Though they were otherwise arrayed with the noblest reflections,
                        they were human. If they slipped and fell into error, therefore, by
                        some negligence or oversight, then we should not gainsay or admonish
                        them. But what is this to you?"
                        [http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8153.asp%5d

                        God Bless.
                      • arbible
                        ... Could you please name those people (and their affiliation(s)) for the sake of accountability and transparency? The currently missing authorship information
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 1, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ
                          Could you please name those people (and their affiliation(s)) for the
                          sake of accountability and transparency? The currently missing
                          authorship information on your site is severely undermining the
                          objectivity and credibility of your opinions. (Please don't tell us
                          that 'names are not important'!)
                          God Bless.
                          --- In arbible@yahoogroups.com, Coptic Truth <coptic_truth01@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                          > Coptic Truth
                          > ÊÞæã ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÇÊåÇãÇÊ ÇáãÒíÝÉ ÇáãæÌåÉ ÖÏ ÇáãÊäíÍ ÇáÃÈ ãÊíøó
                          ÇáãÓßíä æÛíÑå ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÇáÂÊí
                          >
                          > http://au.geocities.com/coptic_truth01/
                          >
                          > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ æÞÏ
                          ÞÇãÊ ÈãÍÇæÑÉ ßá ãä
                          > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ
                          > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä
                          > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí
                          > ÞÏÇÓÉ ÇáÈÇÈÇ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáËÇáË
                          > ÇáÍæÇÑ Ôãá ÍÊì ÇáÂä ãæÖæÚíä ÝÞØ åãÇ ÇáåÑØÞÇÊ Íæá ÓÑ ÇáÅÝÎÇÑÓÊíÇ
                          æÇáÊÃáå
                          > ÇáãæÞÚ ÊÍÊ ÇáÊÃÓíÓ æãÇ ÒÇá áÏíäÇ ãÞÇáÇÊ ßËíÑ É ÌÇÑí ÅÚÏÇÏåÇ ááäÔÑ
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > moheb saleb <mohebsaleb@...> wrote: ÓÄÇáí Ýí ÇáÞÇäæä
                          ÇáßäíÓí ÇáÐí ÇÚÑÝ Ýíå ÇáÞáíá
                          > åá íÍá áÇÓÞÝ Çí ßÇä ãÑÊÈÊå Çä íÏíä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇÍÏ Çæ ÇÝßÇÑ ÇÍÏ Çæ
                          ÊÚÇáíã ÇÍÏ ÈÏæä ãÍÇßãå ÇáÇÝßÇÑ Úáí ãÓÊæí ÇáßäíÓå ßãÌãÚ
                          > ÇáÇãÑ ÎØíÑ ÝÇä íßæä Úáã ÇááÇåæÊ åæ äÊÇÌ ÔÎÕ Ôí ÎØíÑ Çä íßæä
                          ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ åæ ÇáãÑÌÚ Ôí ÎØíÑ
                          > ÇáßäíÓå ÇáßÇËæáßíå ÇáÈÇÈÇ íÞæá ÇááÚÙå ãßÊæÈå áå ãä áÇåæÊí
                          ÇáßäíÓå Çí äÍä ãä Ðáß
                          > ãÇåæ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÇÏÇäå ßÎØíå íÍÇÓÈ ÚáíåÇ ÇáãÓíÍ áÇäå ÊßÓíÑ Ýí
                          ÇáßäíÓå ÌÓÏå æÈíä ÕÏ ÇáåÑÇØÞå ÇáíÓ åæ ãÌãÚ ÇáßäíÓå
                          > Ëã áãÇÐÇ ÕäÚ ÇáãÌãÚ ÇáãÞÏÓ ÇáíÓ áåÐå ÇáÇãæÑ Çã
                          > ááØáÈ ãä ÇáßÇåä Çä íáÈÓ ÔÑÇÈ ÈÔßá ÏÇÆã
                          > ãÍÈ æÏíÚ
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > From: "Medhat Maurice" <pub_reltns1_m@...>
                          > Reply-To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                          > To: <arbible@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: RE: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                          questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                          > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:10:36 +0300
                          >
                          > æáÚáäì ÇÖíÝ Çäå ãä ÃÚÙã ÇááÇåæÊííä Ýì ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ãä ÑÈØ ÇáÊÚáíã
                          æÇááÇåæÊ ÈÇáÍíÇÉ ÇáãÚÇÔÉ æÇáÊØÈíÞ ÇáÑæÍí æÇáÚãáí
                          > ÈÏáÇ ãä ääÞÖ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÚÙíã ÇáÐí áå ãä ËãÇÑ ÇáÎÏãÉ æÇáæÒäÇä ÇáÑÇÆÚÉ
                          ãÇ áÇ íÍÕì æáÇ íÚÏ ÊÚÇáæÇ äÊãËá ÈÓíÑÊåã æÅíãÇäåã æËãÇÑåã
                          > íÇ áå ãä ÔÞÇÁ æÊÚÇÓÉ æÊÚÈ Çäå ÏÇÆãÇ äÑßÒ Úáì ÇáÌÒÁ ÇáÝÇÑÛ ãä ÇáßÃÓ

                          > ÃÖã ÕæÊí Åáì ßá ãä äÕÍå áíÞÑÁÇ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáÊí ÃäÊÌåÇ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì áíÊÚáã
                          ßíÝ íÑÖì Çááå ßíÝ Çäå ßÇä íÈÔÑ ÈãÇ íÄãä Èå
                          > áÊÏÚæäÇ ááÔÞÇÞ ÝÃäÊ ÇÕÛÑ ãä Ðáß ÈßËíÑ æáÇ ÊáÚÈ ÈÇáäÇÑ ÝÃäåÇ Ãæá ãÇ
                          ÊáÓÚ ÞÏ ÊÍÑÞß ÃäÊ ÔÎÕíÇ
                          > íÇ ÕÏíÞí Çääì ÃÎÇÝ Úáíß ãä íÏíäæäå åÐÇ ÇáÃÈ ÇáæÑÚ æÇáãÚáã ÇáÝÐ
                          æÃÑÌæ Çä ÊÕáì Åä íÛÝÑ ÇáÑÈ áß æíÓÇãÍß æíÚØíß ãä ÔÈÚå æÏÓã ÈíÊå
                          > æÇáÑÈ ãÚßã
                          > ãÏÍÊ ãæÑíÓ
                          >
                          >
                          > From: arbible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arbible@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                          > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                          > To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                          questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                          >
                          >
                          > ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ
                          ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÅØáÇÞ. æÐáß ÈÔåÇÏÉ ÃÚÙã ÚáãÇÁ
                          ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã. ÞÈá ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ßÇäÊ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇááÇåæÊíÉ
                          ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÖÍáÉ æÊÎÈØ Èíä ÇáÝßÑ
                          ÇáÈÑæÊæÓÊäÊí æÇáßÇËæáíßí æßáÇåãÇ ÝßÑ ÛÑÈí ÈÚíÏ ÊãÇãÇ Úä ÑæÍ ÇáÂÈÇÁ
                          æÇáÊÞáíÏ ÇáßäÓí ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ßá ãä íÊÔßß ÃÏÚæå áÞÑÇÁÉ ßÊÈ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáÚãáÇÞÉ æÝÍÕåÇ áãÚÑÝÉ
                          ãÏì ÚÙãÉ åÐå ÇáßÊÈ æãÏì ÇáÚØÇÁ æÇáÛäì ÇáÐí ÃÕÈÛå ÇáÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ Úáì åÐÇ
                          ÇáÌíá ãä ÃÌá ÇÍÊíÇÌå.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@...> wrote:
                          > ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ
                          ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
                          >
                          > æ ÔßÑÇ
                          >
                          >
                          > arbible <arbible@...> wrote:
                          > Q:
                          > You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started
                          fundamentalism. And it was
                          >
                          > a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem
                          with which did not
                          > change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there
                          is as I heard it a personal
                          > conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and
                          Papa Shenouda.
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
                          > during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope
                          Shenouda. But Pope
                          > Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly
                          qualified in the
                          > seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before
                          Pope Shenouda but
                          > Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His
                          first book was about the
                          > life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still
                          a layman and a
                          > teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a
                          theological school,
                          > read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever
                          he read, which he
                          > published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing
                          much trouble for our
                          > educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the
                          problem with this
                          > monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to
                          the teaching of our
                          > church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can
                          say that he is a type of
                          > heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century
                          between St. Peter of
                          > Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not
                          a liberal theologian
                          > but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not
                          always liberal theology but
                          > sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem.
                          I'll give you one example
                          > about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after
                          the resurrection of our Lord,
                          > the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of
                          God was united to the
                          > human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the
                          incarnation of the Son of God
                          > when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was
                          united together. So
                          > Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St.
                          Peter or St. Paul or St.
                          > John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature
                          united to human
                          > nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started
                          in Him in Bethlehem and
                          > was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching
                          because he is saying that
                          > any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we
                          don't accept that. You
                          > cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church,
                          nobody can accept this I
                          > think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his
                          erroneous teaching.
                          > At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition
                          between Sadat and the
                          > church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement
                          and attacks on the
                          > churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia
                          in Egypt which we didn't
                          > accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took
                          the chance and made an
                          > alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful
                          for him. He lost most of
                          > his popularity among our people.
                          > Q:
                          > So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not
                          belong to the Coptic
                          > church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in
                          this situation?
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
                          > over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done.
                          He couldn't continue
                          > his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong.
                          What we are doing is to
                          > respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching
                          everywhere by His Holiness
                          > Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests.
                          We speak openly to the
                          > people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating
                          his erroneous teaching or
                          > going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published
                          his teachings in books, but
                          > they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a
                          trial for his disciples in the
                          > church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it
                          difficult to do more than what
                          > we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce
                          this. Sometimes we inform
                          > the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to
                          have a confrontation
                          > with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be
                          judged by the church.
                          > Q:
                          > Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
                          > the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would
                          accept that he is equal to
                          > Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are
                          equal to him? It is a mad
                          > idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because
                          how can we be equal to
                          > the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy
                          Spirit. That is what I
                          > think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-
                          Christians when we say that we are
                          > Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics
                          because we are speaking
                          > about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man
                          who became god?
                          > If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is
                          God, who is the eternal Son
                          > of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
                          > Q:
                          > So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in
                          the
                          > seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts
                          this, especially bishops.
                          > Q:
                          > You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and
                          that also there are no
                          > bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
                          > Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They
                          transferred and after some
                          > years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so
                          many.
                          > Q:
                          > You took them back also? You welcomed them?
                          > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                          > Yes.
                          >
                          > Source:
                          > Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod
                          of the Coptic
                          > Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
                          > Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
                          > [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].
                          > http://www.cawu.org/cawu_docs/Coptic%20Orthodox%20Christianity%
                          20in%20Egypt.pdf
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                          (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          >
                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                          (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ><< image001.gif >> ><< smime.p7s >> >CEOSS
                          > >Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services
                          > >1331 Dr Ahmed Zaki St El Nozha El-Gidida
                          > >PO Box 162-11811 Panorama,Cairo,Egypt
                          > >Tel: (202) 622-1425/6/7/8 - Fax: (202) 622-1434
                          > >www.ceoss.org.eg
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends
                          http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                          > Send instant messages to your online friends
                          http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                          >
                        • Coptic Truth
                          شكرا لك على اقتراحك ولكن من المؤكد أن لنا أسباب قوية التي تمنعنا من الاستجابة ومنها:
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 1, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ÔßÑÇ áß Úáì ÇÞÊÑÇÍß æáßä ãä ÇáãÄßÏ Ãä áäÇ ÃÓÈÇÈ ÞæíÉ ÇáÊí ÊãäÚäÇ ãä ÇáÇÓÊÌÇÈÉ æãäåÇ:
                             
                            ÃæáÇ: Åä ÍãÇíÉ åÄáÇÁ ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÐíä íßÊÈæä Ýí ãæÞÚäÇ ãä ÇáÅÑåÇÈ ÇáßäÓí Çáíæã áÃãÑ ÖÑæÑí ÌÏÇ ÍÊì Ãä ßá ãä íÓÊØíÚ Ãä íÚáãäÇ ãä ÍÞå Ãä äÚØíå ÇáÃãÇä áíÊßáã Ïæä Ãä íÊÚÑÖ áÃÚãÇá ÇáÞãÚ æÇáÍÑã æÚÏã ÇáÕáÇÉ Úáì ãæÊÇåã Ãæ ÊÞÏíã ÇáÎÏãÇÊ ÇáßäÓíÉ áåã áÐáß ÝãæÞÚäÇ åæ ãäÈÑ ÍÑ áßá ãä íÑíÏ Ãä íÞæá ÇáÍÞ Ïæä ÎæÝ. ÃÞæá áß Ãä ßÊøóÇÈäÇ ãä Èíäåã ßåäÉ ÃÝÇÖá áÇ äÑíÏ Ãä äÚÑÖåã ááãåÇáß. äÍä äÔÌÚ ÇáÌãíÚ Úáì ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æäÖãä ÚÏã ÊÓÑÈ Ãí ÃÓãÇÁ.
                             
                            ËÇäíÇ: Åä ãä áÇ íÓÊØíÚ Ãä íãíÒ Èíä ÇáÊÚáíã ÇááÇåæÊí ÇáÕÍíÍ ãä ÇáÊÚáíã ÇáÛÇÔ ÅáÇ ÈãÚÑÝÉ ÇÓã ÇáßÇÊÈ íáÒãå ãÑÇÌÚÉ ÅíãÇäå æãÏì ÇÓÊÞÇãÊå Úáì ÇáÍÞ ÇáÅäÌíáí æÇáÊÓáíã ÇáÑÓæáí æÊÚÇáíã ÇáÃÈÇÁ. Åä ÞÑÇÁÉ ÇáäÕæÕ ÇáãßÊæÈÉ áÃí ÅäÓÇä ÚäÏå ÃÞá ÏÑÇíÉ ÈÇáãÓíÍíÉ ÃÙä Ãäå ãä ÇáÓåá Úáíå Ãä íãíÒ æíÚÑÝ ÇáÞÇãÉ ÇáÑæÍíÉ æÇááÇåæÊíÉ ÇáãÑÊÝÚÉ áßÊÇÈÊÇ.
                             
                            ËÇáËÇ: Åä ÃåãíÉ æÎØæÑÉ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇáÊí äÔÑäÇåÇ Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÞÏ ÃËÇÑÊ ßá ãä ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ ÃÓÞÝ ÌäæÈ ÃãÑíßÇ æÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä ÃÓÞÝ áæÓ ÃäÌáæÓ æÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí ãØÑÇä ÏãíÇØ ÝÞÇã ßá æÇÍÏ ãäåã ÈÇáÑÏ ÚáíäÇ æãåÇÌãÉ ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ¡ æÞÏ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíåã ÌãíÚÇ æíÓÊØíÚ ÇáÞÇÑÆ ÇáãËÞÝ ãä ÎáÇá åÐÇ ÇáÍæÇÑ ÇááÇåæÊí ÇáæÇÖÍ Ãä íÊÚÑÝ Úáì ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÇáÍÞíÞíÉ .    
                              
                             ÑÇÈÚÇ: ÈÚÏ ßá Ðáß ÞÇã ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÈÇáÑÏ ÚáíäÇ Ýí ãÌáÉ ÇáßÑÇÒÉ ÇáÓäÉ 32 ÇáÚÏÏÇä 31- 32   ÈÊÇÑíÎ 22 ÃßÊæÈÑ 2004. æÞÏ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíå.
                             
                            ÎÇãÓÇ: Åä ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ åí ÇáÊí ÃÓßÊÊ æÃÛáÞÊ ÈÇÈÇ ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáãÞÇÑä Ýí ãÌáÉ ÇáßÑÇÒÉ ÇáÐí Ùá íäÔÑ ÊÚÇáíã áÇåæÊíÉ ÎØíÑÉ æÝÇÓÏÉ. æÑÛã ßá ãÍÇæáÇÊ ÇáÚÞáÇÁ  áã íÓÊØÚ ÃÍÏ Ãä íÓßÊ åÐÇ ÇáÕæÊ ÇáåÑØæÞí  áÓäíä ØæíáÉ ÌÏÇ. æáÞÏ äÌÍÊ ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ Ýí ÅÓßÇÊ åÐÇ ÇáÕæÊ!  áãÇÐÇ¿
                             
                             ÓÇÏÓÇ: Åä ßÊÇÈäÇ íÞæãæä ÈÅÚÏÇÏ ÑÏÇ áÇåæÊíÇ ßÇãáÇ Úáì ÇáËãÇäíÉ ßÊíÈÇÊ Úä ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáãÞÇÑä ÇáÊí ÃÕÏÑåÇ ÇáÈÇÈÇ.  æÇáÊí ÊÏÑÓ Ýí ÇáÅßáíÑíßíÉ Úáì ÃäåÇ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ.    
                             
                            ÓÇÈÚÇ: ÅääÇ áÇ íåãäÇ Ãä íÚÑÝäÇ ÇáäÇÓ ÈÞÏÑ ãÇ åæ ãåã Ãä íÚÑÝæÇ ÇáÍÞ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí ÝíÚÑÝæÇ ÇáãÓíÍ ßãÇ åæ ÍÊì íÓÊÞíã ÅíãÇäåã æÊÕÍ ÚÈÇÏÊåã. ÅääÇ äØáÈ ÎáÇÕ ßá ÇáäÝæÓ æÃæáÇ ÎáÇÕ äÝÓ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáÐí äÕáí ãä ÃÌáå æäÏÚæ ÇáÌãíÚ ááÕáÇÉ ãä ÃÌáå ÍÊì íÑÝÚ Úäå åÐå ÇáÚËÑÉ ÇáÔäíÚÉ .   
                             
                            ËÇãäÇ: Åä ßá ãä ÞÏã áäÇ ÇÓÊÝÓÇÑÇ ÝíãÇ äßÊÈ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíå Èßá ÊÝÕíá ææÖæÍ æÝí ÈÚÖ ÇáãæÇÞÝ ÞãäÇ ÈÊÈÇÏá ÚÏÉ ÑÓÇÆá ãÚ ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ. æáÞÏ ÊÌÇåáäÇ ÈÚÖ ÇáÑÓÇÆá ÛíÑ ÇáãæÖæÚíÉ ÇáÊí ÊÏá ÚÏã ÏÑÇíÉ ßÇãáÉ ÈÇáãæÖæÚ¡ ßãÇ ÊÚÑÖäÇ ááßËíÑ ãä ÇáÑÓÇÆá ÇáãÓÊÝÒÉ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÞáíá ãäåÇ ÚäÏãÇ æÌÏäÇ åäÇß ÖÑæÑÉ áÐáß.   
                             
                            ÔÚÇÑäÇ: áÞÏ ÊÓáøóã åÐÇ ÇáÌíá ÅíãÇä ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáæÇÍÏÉ ÓáíãÇ ãÛãæÓÇ ÈÏã ÇáÔåÏÇÁ¡ æÚáíå Ãä íÓáã äÝÓ ÇáÅíãÇä ÇáãÓÊÞíã áÌíá ÌÏíÏ ãÍÝæÙÇð ãä ßá ÚÈË ÈÃí Ëãä.
                             
                            "Ãä íÏ ÇáÑÈ áä ÊÞÕÑ Úä Ãä ÊÎáÕ" .
                             
                            áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                             


                            arbible <mnkamel@...> wrote:
                            > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ
                            Could you please name those people (and their affiliation( s)) for the
                            sake of accountability and transparency? The currently missing
                            authorship information on your site is severely undermining the
                            objectivity and credibility of your opinions. (Please don't tell us
                            that 'names are not important'!)
                            God Bless.
                            --- In arbible@yahoogroups .com, Coptic Truth <coptic_truth01@ ...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                            > Coptic Truth
                            > ÊÞæã ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÇÊåÇãÇÊ ÇáãÒíÝÉ ÇáãæÌåÉ ÖÏ ÇáãÊäíÍ ÇáÃÈ ãÊíøó
                            ÇáãÓßíä æÛíÑå ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÇáÂÊí
                            >
                            > http://au.geocities .com/coptic_ truth01/
                            >
                            > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ æÞÏ
                            ÞÇãÊ ÈãÍÇæÑÉ ßá ãä
                            > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ
                            > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä
                            > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí
                            > ÞÏÇÓÉ ÇáÈÇÈÇ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáËÇáË
                            > ÇáÍæÇÑ Ôãá ÍÊì ÇáÂä ãæÖæÚíä ÝÞØ åãÇ ÇáåÑØÞÇÊ Íæá ÓÑ ÇáÅÝÎÇÑÓÊíÇ
                            æÇáÊÃáå
                            > ÇáãæÞÚ ÊÍÊ ÇáÊÃÓíÓ æãÇ ÒÇá áÏíäÇ ãÞÇáÇÊ ßËíÑ É ÌÇÑí ÅÚÏÇÏåÇ ááäÔÑ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > moheb saleb <mohebsaleb@ ...> wrote: ÓÄÇáí Ýí ÇáÞÇäæä
                            ÇáßäíÓí ÇáÐí ÇÚÑÝ Ýíå ÇáÞáíá
                            > åá íÍá áÇÓÞÝ Çí ßÇä ãÑÊÈÊå Çä íÏíä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇÍÏ Çæ ÇÝßÇÑ ÇÍÏ Çæ
                            ÊÚÇáíã ÇÍÏ ÈÏæä ãÍÇßãå ÇáÇÝßÇÑ Úáí ãÓÊæí ÇáßäíÓå ßãÌãÚ
                            > ÇáÇãÑ ÎØíÑ ÝÇä íßæä Úáã ÇááÇåæÊ åæ äÊÇÌ ÔÎÕ Ôí ÎØíÑ Çä íßæä
                            ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ åæ ÇáãÑÌÚ Ôí ÎØíÑ
                            > ÇáßäíÓå ÇáßÇËæáßíå ÇáÈÇÈÇ íÞæá ÇááÚÙå ãßÊæÈå áå ãä áÇåæÊí
                            ÇáßäíÓå Çí äÍä ãä Ðáß
                            > ãÇåæ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÇÏÇäå ßÎØíå íÍÇÓÈ ÚáíåÇ ÇáãÓíÍ áÇäå ÊßÓíÑ Ýí
                            ÇáßäíÓå ÌÓÏå æÈíä ÕÏ ÇáåÑÇØÞå ÇáíÓ åæ ãÌãÚ ÇáßäíÓå
                            > Ëã áãÇÐÇ ÕäÚ ÇáãÌãÚ ÇáãÞÏÓ ÇáíÓ áåÐå ÇáÇãæÑ Çã
                            > ááØáÈ ãä ÇáßÇåä Çä íáÈÓ ÔÑÇÈ ÈÔßá ÏÇÆã
                            > ãÍÈ æÏíÚ
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                            > From: "Medhat Maurice" <pub_reltns1_ m@...>
                            > Reply-To: arbible@yahoogroups .com
                            > To: <arbible@yahoogroups .com>
                            > Subject: RE: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                            questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                            > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:10:36 +0300
                            >
                            > æáÚáäì ÇÖíÝ Çäå ãä ÃÚÙã ÇááÇåæÊííä Ýì ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ãä ÑÈØ ÇáÊÚáíã
                            æÇááÇåæÊ ÈÇáÍíÇÉ ÇáãÚÇÔÉ æÇáÊØÈíÞ ÇáÑæÍí æÇáÚãáí
                            > ÈÏáÇ ãä ääÞÖ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÚÙíã ÇáÐí áå ãä ËãÇÑ ÇáÎÏãÉ æÇáæÒäÇä ÇáÑÇÆÚÉ
                            ãÇ áÇ íÍÕì æáÇ íÚÏ ÊÚÇáæÇ äÊãËá ÈÓíÑÊåã æÅíãÇäåã æËãÇÑåã
                            > íÇ áå ãä ÔÞÇÁ æÊÚÇÓÉ æÊÚÈ Çäå ÏÇÆãÇ äÑßÒ Úáì ÇáÌÒÁ ÇáÝÇÑÛ ãä ÇáßÃÓ

                            > ÃÖã ÕæÊí Åáì ßá ãä äÕÍå áíÞÑÁÇ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáÊí ÃäÊÌåÇ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì áíÊÚáã
                            ßíÝ íÑÖì Çááå ßíÝ Çäå ßÇä íÈÔÑ ÈãÇ íÄãä Èå
                            > áÊÏÚæäÇ ááÔÞÇÞ ÝÃäÊ ÇÕÛÑ ãä Ðáß ÈßËíÑ æáÇ ÊáÚÈ ÈÇáäÇÑ ÝÃäåÇ Ãæá ãÇ
                            ÊáÓÚ ÞÏ ÊÍÑÞß ÃäÊ ÔÎÕíÇ
                            > íÇ ÕÏíÞí Çääì ÃÎÇÝ Úáíß ãä íÏíäæäå åÐÇ ÇáÃÈ ÇáæÑÚ æÇáãÚáã ÇáÝÐ
                            æÃÑÌæ Çä ÊÕáì Åä íÛÝÑ ÇáÑÈ áß æíÓÇãÍß æíÚØíß ãä ÔÈÚå æÏÓã ÈíÊå
                            > æÇáÑÈ ãÚßã
                            > ãÏÍÊ ãæÑíÓ
                            >
                            >
                            > From: arbible@yahoogroups .com [mailto:arbible@yahoogroups .com] On
                            Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                            > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                            > To: arbible@yahoogroups .com
                            > Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                            questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                            >
                            >
                            > ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ
                            ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÅØáÇÞ. æÐáß ÈÔåÇÏÉ ÃÚÙã ÚáãÇÁ
                            ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã. ÞÈá ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ßÇäÊ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇááÇåæÊíÉ
                            ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÖÍáÉ æÊÎÈØ Èíä ÇáÝßÑ
                            ÇáÈÑæÊæÓÊäÊí æÇáßÇËæáíßí æßáÇåãÇ ÝßÑ ÛÑÈí ÈÚíÏ ÊãÇãÇ Úä ÑæÍ ÇáÂÈÇÁ
                            æÇáÊÞáíÏ ÇáßäÓí ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ßá ãä íÊÔßß ÃÏÚæå áÞÑÇÁÉ ßÊÈ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáÚãáÇÞÉ æÝÍÕåÇ áãÚÑÝÉ
                            ãÏì ÚÙãÉ åÐå ÇáßÊÈ æãÏì ÇáÚØÇÁ æÇáÛäì ÇáÐí ÃÕÈÛå ÇáÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ Úáì åÐÇ
                            ÇáÌíá ãä ÃÌá ÇÍÊíÇÌå.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@ ...> wrote:
                            > ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ
                            ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
                            >
                            > æ ÔßÑÇ
                            >
                            >
                            > arbible <arbible@... > wrote:
                            > Q:
                            > You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started
                            fundamentalism. And it was
                            >
                            > a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem
                            with which did not
                            > change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there
                            is as I heard it a personal
                            > conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and
                            Papa Shenouda.
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
                            > during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope
                            Shenouda. But Pope
                            > Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly
                            qualified in the
                            > seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before
                            Pope Shenouda but
                            > Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His
                            first book was about the
                            > life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still
                            a layman and a
                            > teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a
                            theological school,
                            > read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever
                            he read, which he
                            > published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing
                            much trouble for our
                            > educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the
                            problem with this
                            > monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to
                            the teaching of our
                            > church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can
                            say that he is a type of
                            > heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century
                            between St. Peter of
                            > Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not
                            a liberal theologian
                            > but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not
                            always liberal theology but
                            > sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem.
                            I'll give you one example
                            > about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after
                            the resurrection of our Lord,
                            > the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of
                            God was united to the
                            > human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the
                            incarnation of the Son of God
                            > when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was
                            united together. So
                            > Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St.
                            Peter or St. Paul or St.
                            > John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature
                            united to human
                            > nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started
                            in Him in Bethlehem and
                            > was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching
                            because he is saying that
                            > any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we
                            don't accept that. You
                            > cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church,
                            nobody can accept this I
                            > think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his
                            erroneous teaching.
                            > At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition
                            between Sadat and the
                            > church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement
                            and attacks on the
                            > churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia
                            in Egypt which we didn't
                            > accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took
                            the chance and made an
                            > alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful
                            for him. He lost most of
                            > his popularity among our people.
                            > Q:
                            > So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not
                            belong to the Coptic
                            > church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in
                            this situation?
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
                            > over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done.
                            He couldn't continue
                            > his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong.
                            What we are doing is to
                            > respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching
                            everywhere by His Holiness
                            > Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests.
                            We speak openly to the
                            > people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating
                            his erroneous teaching or
                            > going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published
                            his teachings in books, but
                            > they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a
                            trial for his disciples in the
                            > church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it
                            difficult to do more than what
                            > we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce
                            this. Sometimes we inform
                            > the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to
                            have a confrontation
                            > with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be
                            judged by the church.
                            > Q:
                            > Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
                            > the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would
                            accept that he is equal to
                            > Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are
                            equal to him? It is a mad
                            > idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because
                            how can we be equal to
                            > the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy
                            Spirit. That is what I
                            > think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-
                            Christians when we say that we are
                            > Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics
                            because we are speaking
                            > about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man
                            who became god?
                            > If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is
                            God, who is the eternal Son
                            > of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
                            > Q:
                            > So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in
                            the
                            > seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts
                            this, especially bishops.
                            > Q:
                            > You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and
                            that also there are no
                            > bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
                            > Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They
                            transferred and after some
                            > years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so
                            many.
                            > Q:
                            > You took them back also? You welcomed them?
                            > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                            > Yes.
                            >
                            > Source:
                            > Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod
                            of the Coptic
                            > Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
                            > Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
                            > [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].
                            > http://www.cawu. org/cawu_ docs/Coptic% 20Orthodox% 20Christianity%
                            20in%20Egypt. pdf
                            >
                            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                            (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                            >
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                            (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ><< image001.gif >> ><< smime.p7s >> >CEOSS
                            > >Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services
                            > >1331 Dr Ahmed Zaki St El Nozha El-Gidida
                            > >PO Box 162-11811 Panorama,Cairo, Egypt
                            > >Tel: (202) 622-1425/6/7/ 8 - Fax: (202) 622-1434
                            > >www.ceoss.org. eg
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends
                            http://au.messenger .yahoo.com
                            > Send instant messages to your online friends
                            http://au.messenger .yahoo.com
                            >


                            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                          • arbible
                            Thanks for your reply, but let me respectfully disagree with you. Knowing who the authors are, esp. their affiliations and credentials, is very important when
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 2, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks for your reply, but let me respectfully disagree with you.
                              Knowing who the authors are, esp. their affiliations and credentials,
                              is very important when deciding about the quality of what we read on
                              the Web (is it written by an authoritative source with appropriate
                              credentials?).
                              Check out this PPT of mine:
                              http://healthcybermap.org/MNKB_Quality.PDF
                              God Bless.
                              --- In arbible@yahoogroups.com, Coptic Truth <coptic_truth01@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > ÔßÑÇ áß Úáì ÇÞÊÑÇÍß æáßä ãä ÇáãÄßÏ Ãä áäÇ ÃÓÈÇÈ ÞæíÉ ÇáÊí ÊãäÚäÇ ãä
                              ÇáÇÓÊÌÇÈÉ æãäåÇ:
                              >
                              > ÃæáÇ: Åä ÍãÇíÉ åÄáÇÁ ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÐíä íßÊÈæä Ýí ãæÞÚäÇ ãä ÇáÅÑåÇÈ
                              ÇáßäÓí Çáíæã áÃãÑ ÖÑæÑí ÌÏÇ ÍÊì Ãä ßá ãä íÓÊØíÚ Ãä íÚáãäÇ ãä ÍÞå Ãä
                              äÚØíå ÇáÃãÇä áíÊßáã Ïæä Ãä íÊÚÑÖ áÃÚãÇá ÇáÞãÚ æÇáÍÑã æÚÏã ÇáÕáÇÉ Úáì
                              ãæÊÇåã Ãæ ÊÞÏíã ÇáÎÏãÇÊ ÇáßäÓíÉ áåã áÐáß ÝãæÞÚäÇ åæ ãäÈÑ ÍÑ áßá ãä
                              íÑíÏ Ãä íÞæá ÇáÍÞ Ïæä ÎæÝ. ÃÞæá áß Ãä ßÊøóÇÈäÇ ãä Èíäåã ßåäÉ ÃÝÇÖá áÇ
                              äÑíÏ Ãä äÚÑÖåã ááãåÇáß. äÍä äÔÌÚ ÇáÌãíÚ Úáì ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æäÖãä ÚÏã ÊÓÑÈ Ãí
                              ÃÓãÇÁ.
                              >
                              > ËÇäíÇ: Åä ãä áÇ íÓÊØíÚ Ãä íãíÒ Èíä ÇáÊÚáíã ÇááÇåæÊí ÇáÕÍíÍ ãä
                              ÇáÊÚáíã ÇáÛÇÔ ÅáÇ ÈãÚÑÝÉ ÇÓã ÇáßÇÊÈ íáÒãå ãÑÇÌÚÉ ÅíãÇäå æãÏì ÇÓÊÞÇãÊå
                              Úáì ÇáÍÞ ÇáÅäÌíáí æÇáÊÓáíã ÇáÑÓæáí æÊÚÇáíã ÇáÃÈÇÁ. Åä ÞÑÇÁÉ ÇáäÕæÕ
                              ÇáãßÊæÈÉ áÃí ÅäÓÇä ÚäÏå ÃÞá ÏÑÇíÉ ÈÇáãÓíÍíÉ ÃÙä Ãäå ãä ÇáÓåá Úáíå Ãä
                              íãíÒ æíÚÑÝ ÇáÞÇãÉ ÇáÑæÍíÉ æÇááÇåæÊíÉ ÇáãÑÊÝÚÉ áßÊÇÈÊÇ.
                              >
                              > ËÇáËÇ: Åä ÃåãíÉ æÎØæÑÉ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇáÊí äÔÑäÇåÇ Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÞÏ ÃËÇÑÊ
                              ßá ãä ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ ÃÓÞÝ ÌäæÈ ÃãÑíßÇ æÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä ÃÓÞÝ áæÓ ÃäÌáæÓ
                              æÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí ãØÑÇä ÏãíÇØ ÝÞÇã ßá æÇÍÏ ãäåã ÈÇáÑÏ ÚáíäÇ æãåÇÌãÉ
                              ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ¡ æÞÏ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíåã ÌãíÚÇ æíÓÊØíÚ ÇáÞÇÑÆ ÇáãËÞÝ ãä ÎáÇá åÐÇ
                              ÇáÍæÇÑ ÇááÇåæÊí ÇáæÇÖÍ Ãä íÊÚÑÝ Úáì ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÇáÍÞíÞíÉ .
                              >
                              > ÑÇÈÚÇ: ÈÚÏ ßá Ðáß ÞÇã ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÈÇáÑÏ ÚáíäÇ Ýí ãÌáÉ ÇáßÑÇÒÉ
                              ÇáÓäÉ 32 ÇáÚÏÏÇä 31- 32 ÈÊÇÑíÎ 22 ÃßÊæÈÑ 2004. æÞÏ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíå.
                              >
                              > ÎÇãÓÇ: Åä ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ åí ÇáÊí ÃÓßÊÊ æÃÛáÞÊ ÈÇÈÇ ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáãÞÇÑä Ýí
                              ãÌáÉ ÇáßÑÇÒÉ ÇáÐí Ùá íäÔÑ ÊÚÇáíã áÇåæÊíÉ ÎØíÑÉ æÝÇÓÏÉ. æÑÛã ßá ãÍÇæáÇÊ
                              ÇáÚÞáÇÁ áã íÓÊØÚ ÃÍÏ Ãä íÓßÊ åÐÇ ÇáÕæÊ ÇáåÑØæÞí áÓäíä ØæíáÉ ÌÏÇ.
                              æáÞÏ äÌÍÊ ßÊÇÈÇÊäÇ Ýí ÅÓßÇÊ åÐÇ ÇáÕæÊ! áãÇÐÇ¿
                              >
                              > ÓÇÏÓÇ: Åä ßÊÇÈäÇ íÞæãæä ÈÅÚÏÇÏ ÑÏÇ áÇåæÊíÇ ßÇãáÇ Úáì ÇáËãÇäíÉ
                              ßÊíÈÇÊ Úä ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáãÞÇÑä ÇáÊí ÃÕÏÑåÇ ÇáÈÇÈÇ. æÇáÊí ÊÏÑÓ Ýí
                              ÇáÅßáíÑíßíÉ Úáì ÃäåÇ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ.
                              >
                              > ÓÇÈÚÇ: ÅääÇ áÇ íåãäÇ Ãä íÚÑÝäÇ ÇáäÇÓ ÈÞÏÑ ãÇ åæ ãåã Ãä íÚÑÝæÇ ÇáÍÞ
                              ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí ÝíÚÑÝæÇ ÇáãÓíÍ ßãÇ åæ ÍÊì íÓÊÞíã ÅíãÇäåã æÊÕÍ ÚÈÇÏÊåã. ÅääÇ
                              äØáÈ ÎáÇÕ ßá ÇáäÝæÓ æÃæáÇ ÎáÇÕ äÝÓ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáÐí äÕáí ãä ÃÌáå æäÏÚæ
                              ÇáÌãíÚ ááÕáÇÉ ãä ÃÌáå ÍÊì íÑÝÚ Úäå åÐå ÇáÚËÑÉ ÇáÔäíÚÉ .
                              >
                              > ËÇãäÇ: Åä ßá ãä ÞÏã áäÇ ÇÓÊÝÓÇÑÇ ÝíãÇ äßÊÈ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáíå Èßá
                              ÊÝÕíá ææÖæÍ æÝí ÈÚÖ ÇáãæÇÞÝ ÞãäÇ ÈÊÈÇÏá ÚÏÉ ÑÓÇÆá ãÚ ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ. æáÞÏ
                              ÊÌÇåáäÇ ÈÚÖ ÇáÑÓÇÆá ÛíÑ ÇáãæÖæÚíÉ ÇáÊí ÊÏá ÚÏã ÏÑÇíÉ ßÇãáÉ ÈÇáãæÖæÚ¡
                              ßãÇ ÊÚÑÖäÇ ááßËíÑ ãä ÇáÑÓÇÆá ÇáãÓÊÝÒÉ ÞãäÇ ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÞáíá ãäåÇ
                              ÚäÏãÇ æÌÏäÇ åäÇß ÖÑæÑÉ áÐáß.
                              >
                              > ÔÚÇÑäÇ: áÞÏ ÊÓáøóã åÐÇ ÇáÌíá ÅíãÇä ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáæÇÍÏÉ ÓáíãÇ ãÛãæÓÇ ÈÏã
                              ÇáÔåÏÇÁ¡ æÚáíå Ãä íÓáã äÝÓ ÇáÅíãÇä ÇáãÓÊÞíã áÌíá ÌÏíÏ ãÍÝæÙÇð ãä ßá ÚÈË
                              ÈÃí Ëãä.
                              >
                              > "Ãä íÏ ÇáÑÈ áä ÊÞÕÑ Úä Ãä ÊÎáÕ" .
                              >
                              > áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > arbible <mnkamel@...> wrote: > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ
                              ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ
                              > Could you please name those people (and their affiliation(s)) for
                              the
                              > sake of accountability and transparency? The currently missing
                              > authorship information on your site is severely undermining the
                              > objectivity and credibility of your opinions. (Please don't tell us
                              > that 'names are not important'!)
                              > God Bless.
                              > --- In arbible@yahoogroups.com, Coptic Truth <coptic_truth01@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > áÌäÉ ÇáÏÝÇÚ Úä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ
                              > > Coptic Truth
                              > > ÊÞæã ÈÇáÑÏ Úáì ÇáÇÊåÇãÇÊ ÇáãÒíÝÉ ÇáãæÌåÉ ÖÏ ÇáãÊäíÍ ÇáÃÈ ãÊíøó
                              > ÇáãÓßíä æÛíÑå ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä Úáì ãæÞÚäÇ ÇáÂÊí
                              > >
                              > > http://au.geocities.com/coptic_truth01/
                              > >
                              > > ÞÇã ÈÇáÑÏ æÇáãäÇÞÔÉ æÇáÍæÇÑ ãÌãæÚÉ ãä ÇááÇåæÊííä ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ æÞÏ
                              > ÞÇãÊ ÈãÍÇæÑÉ ßá ãä
                              > > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ íæÓÝ
                              > > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÓÑÇÈíæä
                              > > äíÇÝÉ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÈíÔæí
                              > > ÞÏÇÓÉ ÇáÈÇÈÇ ÇáÃäÈÇ ÔäæÏÉ ÇáËÇáË
                              > > ÇáÍæÇÑ Ôãá ÍÊì ÇáÂä ãæÖæÚíä ÝÞØ åãÇ ÇáåÑØÞÇÊ Íæá ÓÑ ÇáÅÝÎÇÑÓÊíÇ
                              > æÇáÊÃáå
                              > > ÇáãæÞÚ ÊÍÊ ÇáÊÃÓíÓ æãÇ ÒÇá áÏíäÇ ãÞÇáÇÊ ßËíÑ É ÌÇÑí ÅÚÏÇÏåÇ ááäÔÑ
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > moheb saleb <mohebsaleb@> wrote: ÓÄÇáí Ýí ÇáÞÇäæä
                              > ÇáßäíÓí ÇáÐí ÇÚÑÝ Ýíå ÇáÞáíá
                              > > åá íÍá áÇÓÞÝ Çí ßÇä ãÑÊÈÊå Çä íÏíä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇÍÏ Çæ ÇÝßÇÑ ÇÍÏ Çæ
                              > ÊÚÇáíã ÇÍÏ ÈÏæä ãÍÇßãå ÇáÇÝßÇÑ Úáí ãÓÊæí ÇáßäíÓå ßãÌãÚ
                              > > ÇáÇãÑ ÎØíÑ ÝÇä íßæä Úáã ÇááÇåæÊ åæ äÊÇÌ ÔÎÕ Ôí ÎØíÑ Çä íßæä
                              > ÔÎÕ æÇÍÏ åæ ÇáãÑÌÚ Ôí ÎØíÑ
                              > > ÇáßäíÓå ÇáßÇËæáßíå ÇáÈÇÈÇ íÞæá ÇááÚÙå ãßÊæÈå áå ãä áÇåæÊí
                              > ÇáßäíÓå Çí äÍä ãä Ðáß
                              > > ãÇåæ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÇÏÇäå ßÎØíå íÍÇÓÈ ÚáíåÇ ÇáãÓíÍ áÇäå ÊßÓíÑ Ýí
                              > ÇáßäíÓå ÌÓÏå æÈíä ÕÏ ÇáåÑÇØÞå ÇáíÓ åæ ãÌãÚ ÇáßäíÓå
                              > > Ëã áãÇÐÇ ÕäÚ ÇáãÌãÚ ÇáãÞÏÓ ÇáíÓ áåÐå ÇáÇãæÑ Çã
                              > > ááØáÈ ãä ÇáßÇåä Çä íáÈÓ ÔÑÇÈ ÈÔßá ÏÇÆã
                              > > ãÍÈ æÏíÚ
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > > From: "Medhat Maurice" <pub_reltns1_m@>
                              > > Reply-To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                              > > To: <arbible@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Subject: RE: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                              > questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                              > > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 13:10:36 +0300
                              > >
                              > > æáÚáäì ÇÖíÝ Çäå ãä ÃÚÙã ÇááÇåæÊííä Ýì ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ãä ÑÈØ ÇáÊÚáíã
                              > æÇááÇåæÊ ÈÇáÍíÇÉ ÇáãÚÇÔÉ æÇáÊØÈíÞ ÇáÑæÍí æÇáÚãáí
                              > > ÈÏáÇ ãä ääÞÖ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÚÙíã ÇáÐí áå ãä ËãÇÑ ÇáÎÏãÉ æÇáæÒäÇä ÇáÑÇÆÚÉ
                              > ãÇ áÇ íÍÕì æáÇ íÚÏ ÊÚÇáæÇ äÊãËá ÈÓíÑÊåã æÅíãÇäåã æËãÇÑåã
                              > > íÇ áå ãä ÔÞÇÁ æÊÚÇÓÉ æÊÚÈ Çäå ÏÇÆãÇ äÑßÒ Úáì ÇáÌÒÁ ÇáÝÇÑÛ ãä ÇáßÃÓ
                              >
                              > > ÃÖã ÕæÊí Åáì ßá ãä äÕÍå áíÞÑÁÇ ÇáßÊÈ ÇáÊí ÃäÊÌåÇ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì áíÊÚáã
                              > ßíÝ íÑÖì Çááå ßíÝ Çäå ßÇä íÈÔÑ ÈãÇ íÄãä Èå
                              > > áÊÏÚæäÇ ááÔÞÇÞ ÝÃäÊ ÇÕÛÑ ãä Ðáß ÈßËíÑ æáÇ ÊáÚÈ ÈÇáäÇÑ ÝÃäåÇ Ãæá ãÇ
                              > ÊáÓÚ ÞÏ ÊÍÑÞß ÃäÊ ÔÎÕíÇ
                              > > íÇ ÕÏíÞí Çääì ÃÎÇÝ Úáíß ãä íÏíäæäå åÐÇ ÇáÃÈ ÇáæÑÚ æÇáãÚáã ÇáÝÐ
                              > æÃÑÌæ Çä ÊÕáì Åä íÛÝÑ ÇáÑÈ áß æíÓÇãÍß æíÚØíß ãä ÔÈÚå æÏÓã ÈíÊå
                              > > æÇáÑÈ ãÚßã
                              > > ãÏÍÊ ãæÑíÓ
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: arbible@yahoogroups.com [mailto:arbible@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of Coptic By_Nature
                              > > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 7:58 AM
                              > > To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy answer to
                              > questions about Fr. Matta El-Meskeen
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ÊÚÊÈÑ ßÊÇÈÇ Ê ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáãÓßíä åí ÃÚÙã ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÑæÍíÉ áÇåæÊíÉ
                              > ÃÑËæÐßÓíÉ ÕÏÑÊ ÈÇááÛÉ ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Úáì ÇáÅØáÇÞ. æÐáß ÈÔåÇÏÉ ÃÚÙã ÚáãÇÁ
                              > ÇááÇåæÊ ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓ Ýí ÇáÚÇáã. ÞÈá ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ßÇäÊ ÇáßÊÇÈÇÊ ÇááÇåæÊíÉ
                              > ÇáÚÑÈíÉ Ýí ÇáßäíÓÉ ÇáÞÈØíÉ ÚÈÇÑÉ Úä ßÊÇÈÇÊ ÖÍáÉ æÊÎÈØ Èíä ÇáÝßÑ
                              > ÇáÈÑæÊæÓÊäÊí æÇáßÇËæáíßí æßáÇåãÇ ÝßÑ ÛÑÈí ÈÚíÏ ÊãÇãÇ Úä ÑæÍ ÇáÂÈÇÁ
                              > æÇáÊÞáíÏ ÇáßäÓí ÇáÃÑËæÐßÓí.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ßá ãä íÊÔßß ÃÏÚæå áÞÑÇÁÉ ßÊÈ ÃÈæäÇ ãÊì ÇáÚãáÇÞÉ æÝÍÕåÇ áãÚÑÝÉ
                              > ãÏì ÚÙãÉ åÐå ÇáßÊÈ æãÏì ÇáÚØÇÁ æÇáÛäì ÇáÐí ÃÕÈÛå ÇáÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ Úáì åÐÇ

                              > ÇáÌíá ãä ÃÌá ÇÍÊíÇÌå.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Dalia Hanna <dalia_hanna7@> wrote:
                              > > ÑÌÇÁ ÅÚáÇãäÇ ÈÃÓãÇÁ ÇáßÊÈ Ãæ ÇáãÞÇáÇÊ ÇáÊì ÃÊÓãÊ ÈÇáåÑØÞÉ æ
                              > ÇáãÛÇáØÇÊ ÇáãäÓæÈÉ Åáíå Ýì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË
                              > >
                              > > æ ÔßÑÇ
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > arbible <arbible@> wrote:
                              > > Q:
                              > > You said that Sadat caused division in Egypt, and started
                              > fundamentalism. And it was
                              > >
                              > > a difficult time but now it has changed. But there is one problem
                              > with which did not
                              > > change and I think it started recently. I got to know that there
                              > is as I heard it a personal
                              > > conflict between one of the monks of the Makarios monastery and
                              > Papa Shenouda.
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > Yes, Father Matta El-Miskeen is a very famous monk in Egypt and
                              > > during a certain period he was the father of confession of Pope
                              > Shenouda. But Pope
                              > > Shenouda was revising his books because Pope Shenouda was highly
                              > qualified in the
                              > > seminary while this monk was not. He was in monastic life before
                              > Pope Shenouda but
                              > > Pope Shenouda was more qualified theologically than him. His
                              > first book was about the
                              > > life of prayer and was revised by Pope Shenouda when he was still
                              > a layman and a
                              > > teacher in the seminary. Now this monk who was not educated in a
                              > theological school,
                              > > read many books and began writing strange doctrines from whatever
                              > he read, which he
                              > > published. He writes things against our teaching so he's causing
                              > much trouble for our
                              > > educated people who are reading his books and magazines. So the
                              > problem with this
                              > > monk is his teaching which has many mistakes and is contrary to
                              > the teaching of our
                              > > church. You cannot say that he a liberal theologian but you can
                              > say that he is a type of
                              > > heretical person. You know what happened in the fifth century
                              > between St. Peter of
                              > > Alexandria and Nestorius of Constantinopel. So Nestorius was not
                              > a liberal theologian
                              > > but he was a heretical teacher. So heretical teaching is not
                              > always liberal theology but
                              > > sometimes he is also liberal. But it is not his only problem.
                              > I'll give you one example
                              > > about his teaching. He says that on Pentecost fifty days after
                              > the resurrection of our Lord,
                              > > the Holy Spirit came on the church. He says the divine nature of
                              > God was united to the
                              > > human nature at that day exactly as it happened in the
                              > incarnation of the Son of God
                              > > when He was born of the virgin Mary. Divinity of humanity was
                              > united together. So
                              > > Jesus Christ is God who became man, but how can I say that St.
                              > Peter or St. Paul or St.
                              > > John, became the same as Jesus Christ on Pentecost? Divine nature
                              > united to human
                              > > nature. So the incarnation for him magnified that which started
                              > in Him in Bethlehem and
                              > > was reaching its peak on Pentecost. So this is heretical teaching
                              > because he is saying that
                              > > any Christian is equal to Jesus Christ the Son of God and we
                              > don't accept that. You
                              > > cannot see this in the Catholic church, in the Protestant church,
                              > nobody can accept this I
                              > > think. So we are having a problem with this person because of his
                              > erroneous teaching.
                              > > At the time of Sadat he tried to take advantage of the opposition
                              > between Sadat and the
                              > > church because of terrorism in Egypt, the fundamentalist movement
                              > and attacks on the
                              > > churches and the Copts and he tried also to apply Islamic sharia
                              > in Egypt which we didn't
                              > > accept at that time like what happened in the Sudan. So he took
                              > the chance and made an
                              > > alliance with Sadat against the church and it was very shameful
                              > for him. He lost most of
                              > > his popularity among our people.
                              > > Q:
                              > > So what can you do in a case like this? You say he does not
                              > belong to the Coptic
                              > > church from what he is saying. Is there anything you can do in
                              > this situation?
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > We responded to his teaching. What he has done with Sadat was
                              > > over because Sadat was killed one month after what he had done.
                              > He couldn't continue
                              > > his plans so everything ended but his teaching is still wrong.
                              > What we are doing is to
                              > > respond to his teaching and to spread the correct teaching
                              > everywhere by His Holiness
                              > > Pope Shenouda and also our bishops and theologians and priests.
                              > We speak openly to the
                              > > people. Another thing is that some of his disciples are repeating
                              > his erroneous teaching or
                              > > going into other areas to publish it in magazines. He published
                              > his teachings in books, but
                              > > they publish in magazines but more detailed. So there can be a
                              > trial for his disciples in the
                              > > church. But since he [Father Matta] is an elder, we find it
                              > difficult to do more than what
                              > > we are doing now, we find it is enough to officially renounce
                              > this. Sometimes we inform
                              > > the Holy Synod about his erroneous teaching but we don't want to
                              > have a confrontation
                              > > with him personally but perhaps some of his disciples may be
                              > judged by the church.
                              > > Q:
                              > > Is this also why his books are not available in churches?
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > Of course, because they have erroneous teaching. It goes against
                              > > the common Christian belief. No wise Christian person would
                              > accept that he is equal to
                              > > Jesus Christ. Why are we worshipping Jesus Christ when we are
                              > equal to him? It is a mad
                              > > idea! So this is a complete distruction of Christianity. Because
                              > how can we be equal to
                              > > the Son of God, one of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and the Holy
                              > Spirit. That is what I
                              > > think. What is the view of Christianity in front of non-
                              > Christians when we say that we are
                              > > Gods like Jesus Christ. They are accusing us that we are heretics
                              > because we are speaking
                              > > about a God who became Man. But now what will they say about man
                              > who became god?
                              > > If you are heretical because you believe that Jesus Christ is
                              > God, who is the eternal Son
                              > > of God, what can they say if I say that you are God also?
                              > > Q:
                              > > So this was all the discussed by the Holy Synod?
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > It is not yet discussed in the Holy Synod but it is discussed in
                              > the
                              > > seminary and in everywhere in our churches and nobody accepts
                              > this, especially bishops.
                              > > Q:
                              > > You just said that some of his disciples may face a trial, and
                              > that also there are no
                              > > bishops appointed from the monastery of Makarios?
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > Yes, of course there are some bishops who were in St. Makarios
                              > > Monastery who came here [in the Monastery of Bishoi]. They
                              > transferred and after some
                              > > years they became bishops. We have about four of that type, no so
                              > many.
                              > > Q:
                              > > You took them back also? You welcomed them?
                              > > Metropolitan Bishoi:
                              > > Yes.
                              > >
                              > > Source:
                              > > Interview with Metropolitan Bishoi, Secretary of the Holy Synod
                              > of the Coptic
                              > > Orthodox Church, November 14, 2002
                              > > Author (transcribed and edited by): Rick Anderson
                              > > [Interview conducted by Heike Schmidt, ZDF, German TV].
                              > > http://www.cawu.org/cawu_docs/Coptic%20Orthodox%20Christianity%
                              > 20in%20Egypt.pdf
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                              > (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ---------------------------------
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US
                              > (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ><< image001.gif >> ><< smime.p7s >> >CEOSS
                              > > >Coptic Evangelical Organization for Social Services
                              > > >1331 Dr Ahmed Zaki St El Nozha El-Gidida
                              > > >PO Box 162-11811 Panorama,Cairo,Egypt
                              > > >Tel: (202) 622-1425/6/7/8 - Fax: (202) 622-1434
                              > > >www.ceoss.org.eg
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                              > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                              > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                              > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Send instant messages to your online friends
                              http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                              > Send instant messages to your online friends
                              http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.