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RE: [aprsisce] DF Object

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  • Fred Hillhouse
    Okay, you are seeing the same thing then. Isn t the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same? At least I see it that way since
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Okay, you are seeing the same thing then.
       
      Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same? At least I see it that way since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found then it becomes an 'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably splitting hairs at the moment.
       
      I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and speed since '000' implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of readings are taken, then the calculated course and speed could be added to maybe determine an intercept course for the hunter(s).
       
      Gee, this is fun!
       
      Best regards,
      Fred
       
       
       

      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
      Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 15:25
      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

       

      On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

      > The PNGs starting with DF are the items showing an object
      offset.
      >
      > The DF object was created after centering on the center
      of the universe: ME. :)

      I just created 2 at center when centered on me. Both DF objects were
      created about 20 feet north of my location. I never noticed before
      because I was never zoomed in that close.

      > Ah, the
      course and speed relates to the object. This is unknown
      > if one is fox
      hunting, regardless of the fox.

      Nope, the course and speed of the DF report object, not the RDF
      target. I know how fast the location that I took my bearing from is
      moving... it's not moving.

      James
      VE6SRV

    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      Ever wonder why there s an option for additional digits of precision? ME is always displayed at full resolution. Other object s resolution depend on their DAO
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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        Ever wonder why there's an option for additional digits of precision?
        ME is always displayed at full resolution. Other object's resolution
        depend on their DAO settings which defaults to only 0.01 minutes for
        your created objects. Edit the object definition in the XML and set
        precision to 2 on the objects. That'll give you another 1/91 precision,
        approximately 0.0001 minutes.

        The reason you might see two objects when you toggle on Configure /
        Objects / Show is that one of them (the one that you can't click on) is
        shown at the full precision coordinates and the other is the one that
        has been formatted, internally transmitted, and interpreted resulting in
        it rounding to 0.01 minutes. At least, I suspect that's what's going on
        here.

        APRSISCE/32 forces the DF objects to a .../.../bbb/nrq to indicate that
        it is not providing a speed or heading. 000/000/bbb/nrq might imply
        that you are capable of moving but are currently not. The spec allows
        for either so I opted for the more informative (and less visually
        intrusive) one.

        Question: If a DF object transmits a non-zero course and speed, does the
        cone move over time (which makes no sense) and if not, why do I care
        that the source of the DF information was moving when the reading was
        taken?

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


        On 4/1/2011 3:25 PM, James Ewen wrote:
        > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Fred Hillhouse<fmhillhouse@...> wrote:
        >
        >> The PNGs starting with DF are the items showing an object offset.
        >>
        >> The DF object was created after centering on the center of the universe: ME. :)
        > I just created 2 at center when centered on me. Both DF objects were
        > created about 20 feet north of my location. I never noticed before
        > because I was never zoomed in that close.
        >
        >> Ah, the course and speed relates to the object. This is unknown
        >> if one is fox hunting, regardless of the fox.
        > Nope, the course and speed of the DF report object, not the RDF
        > target. I know how fast the location that I took my bearing from is
        > moving... it's not moving.
        >
        > James
        > VE6SRV
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        I thought all the DF objects were points at which readings were taken and were pointed toward the fox, but we don t know where the fox is? When enough DFs
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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          I thought all the DF objects were points at which readings were taken and were pointed toward the fox, but we don't know where the fox is?

          When enough DFs overlap at a point, then the fox's location is approximately known.  If the fox is moving, then you'll have a bunch of DFs that probably don't intersect, but have some...I don't know....visual pattern to them if you knew what path the fox was following?

          To catch a moving fox, I'd think you'd need multiple simultaneously sample-grabbing DF stations that could be plotted so that an overlap would be determined.  Then, N minutes later, the same bunch of fox hunters simultaneously grab another reading and determine the overlap again.  Enough of those multi-observer samples would give you a series of time-based overlaps from which you may or may not be able to determine the fox's path.

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          PS.  (Are you sure we don't need a red dot floating around in there somewhere?)

          On 4/1/2011 3:46 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
          Okay, you are seeing the same thing then.
           
          Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same? At least I see it that way since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found then it becomes an 'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably splitting hairs at the moment.
           
          I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and speed since '000' implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of readings are taken, then the calculated course and speed could be added to maybe determine an intercept course for the hunter(s).
           
          Gee, this is fun!
           
          Best regards,
          Fred
           
           
           

          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
          Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 15:25
          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

           

          On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

          > The PNGs starting with DF are the items showing an object offset.
          >
          > The DF object was created after centering on the center of the universe: ME. :)

          I just created 2 at center when centered on me. Both DF objects were
          created about 20 feet north of my location. I never noticed before
          because I was never zoomed in that close.

          > Ah, the course and speed relates to the object. This is unknown
          > if one is fox hunting, regardless of the fox.

          Nope, the course and speed of the DF report object, not the RDF
          target. I know how fast the location that I took my bearing from is
          moving... it's not moving.

          James
          VE6SRV


        • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
          ... Ok, now THAT shows me how DF might work out. Of course, it was done with repeater-directory-provided observation points and bearings from that point, but
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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            On 4/1/2011 2:48 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
            __._,

          • James Ewen
            ... Aha! There s always a reason... I wish I had waited with my response until after Lynn said this so I could have said Duh Fred, don t you know anything
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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              On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

              > Ever wonder why there's an option for additional digits of precision?
              > ME is always displayed at full resolution.  Other object's resolution
              > depend on their DAO settings which defaults to only 0.01 minutes for
              > your created objects.  Edit the object definition in the XML and set
              > precision to 2 on the objects.  That'll give you another 1/91 precision,
              > approximately 0.0001 minutes.

              Aha! There's always a reason... I wish I had waited with my response
              until after Lynn said this so I could have said "Duh Fred, don't you
              know anything about digits of precision?" 8)

              > Question: If a DF object transmits a non-zero course and speed, does the
              > cone move over time (which makes no sense) and if not, why do I care
              > that the source of the DF information was moving when the reading was
              > taken?

              That's what I was saying... If I were driving down the road, taking DF
              readings in motion with my Doppler unit, it would be possible to have
              a course and speed associated with the bearing. However, the bearing
              reported was reported at a single instance in time. If the object were
              to be dead reckoned, the DF vector should remain in place where it was
              reported, even if the reporting station is moving.

              That could make for an interesting display as the DF vectors would end
              up being orphaned. There would be no source icon easily associated to
              the DF vectors. The DF vectors would need to have times associated
              with them in order to be timed out, even if the source station is
              still active.

              The more I look at the way DF reports can be sent in APRS, the more I
              think that a DF report should always be generated as a DF vector
              object like APRSISCE/32 does currently.

              The only reason that I can see for needing a course in a DF report, is
              if the reporting station hardware can only report a bearing relative
              to the front of the array. If I am headed north, and my array reports
              90 degrees, then the DF vector report should face east. However if I
              am headed east, and my array reports 90 degrees, then the DF vector
              report should face south.

              That kind of thing needs to be taken care of within the program
              creating the DF report though. There's no specification in the APRS DF
              definition that I have seen yet to specify if the DF report is TRUE or
              RELATIVE to direction of travel.

              James
              VE6SRV
            • James Ewen
              ... You thought correctly. ... Indeed, that s the process. If multiple units are working collaboratively, the foxes location can be quickly determined. If
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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                On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

                > I thought all the DF objects were points at which readings were taken
                > and were pointed toward the fox, but we don't know where the fox is?

                You thought correctly.

                > When enough DFs overlap at a point, then the fox's location is approximately known.

                Indeed, that's the process. If multiple units are working
                collaboratively, the foxes location can be quickly determined. If
                working competitively, then the hunting station needs to use some
                cunning in order to be located in a spot that provides a cross
                directional that narrows down the search area in a hurry when the fox
                transmits again.

                > If the fox is moving, then you'll have a bunch of DFs that probably don't
                > intersect, but have some...I don't know....visual pattern to them if you
                > knew what path the fox was following?

                Cooperative hunts for moving foxes are much easier than running a
                competitive hunt. It takes some serious effort to track down a mobile
                fox, catch up to them, and finally capture them. I've been on a couple
                of those, and you can rack up some serious mileage trying to get close
                and capture that elusive fox. Stationary foxes are dead simple in
                comparison.

                > To catch a moving fox, I'd think you'd need multiple simultaneously
                > sample-grabbing DF stations that could be plotted so that an overlap
                > would be determined.  Then, N minutes later, the same bunch of fox
                > hunters simultaneously grab another reading and determine the overlap
                > again.  Enough of those multi-observer samples would give you a series
                > of time-based overlaps from which you may or may not be able to determine
                > the fox's path.

                And for that to be readily apparent, it would be helpful if all
                bearings reported at a specific time were coloured the same, and then
                the next set of bearings with another colour set. With good quality
                bearings, you would hopefully see the green DF sectors all overlapping
                at a specific location, then the yellow DF sectors overlapping at
                another location, the red DF sectors at a third location, and from
                that a possible direction of travel, and perhaps even be able to
                determine which road the fox might be travelling on.

                Without colour sets, one could still visualize the progression, but it
                might be harder to determine which vectors were taken at what time.

                That however is a seriously advanced implementation... I'm good with
                what we have in place now.

                James
                VE6SRV
              • James Ewen
                ... Absolutely not... the fox is your target. The DF vector report is an instantaneous heading towards the strongest signal source. The target will be a point
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 1, 2011
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                  On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

                  > Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same?

                  Absolutely not... the fox is your target. The DF vector report is an
                  instantaneous heading towards the strongest signal source. The target
                  will be a point at some unknown location. Three DF vector reports
                  taken at the same time from different locations will all have
                  different lat/long values, and different vectors, but all *should*
                  point to the target location.

                  > At least I see it that way since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found
                  > then it becomes an 'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably
                  > splitting hairs at the moment.

                  No, not splitting hares (that would be a bunny hunt!)... it is true
                  that we are all pointing at and describing the same target, but arrows
                  pointing at the target are not the target. If that were the case,
                  driving past a sign on the highway saying "Grande Canyon --->" would
                  be the same as actually being at the Grande Canyon.

                  > I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and speed since '000'
                  > implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of readings are taken,
                  > then the calculated course and speed could be added to maybe determine
                  > an intercept course for the hunter(s).

                  Again, the course and speed reported in the DF object report is the
                  course and speed of the DF object (that's the signpost on the side of
                  the road), not the course and speed of the target. The DF report is
                  simply a direction and quality report, and the object used to describe
                  it is required to describe to the remote observer where the measured
                  directional and quality report was taken from.

                  Are you looking at these reports backwards? The triangle shaped sector
                  does not narrow down and point towards the DF object icon to describe
                  the fox location, but rather the DF object icon shows where the report
                  was initiated, and the directional expands away from there towards the
                  direction that the signal was heard from, where if all goes well, the
                  fox will be located within.

                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Fred Hillhouse
                  I hate these DOH moments. Thanks James for pointing me in the right direction! I liked the triangle shaped sector idea that is pointing to the DF object
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 4, 2011
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                    I hate these "DOH" moments. Thanks James for pointing me in the right direction!
                     
                    I liked the 'triangle shaped sector' idea that is pointing to the DF object location.
                     
                    Best regards,
                     
                    Fred, N7FMH


                    From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                    Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 21:08
                    To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

                     

                    On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

                    > Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object
                    (still the fox) really the same?

                    Absolutely not... the fox is your target. The DF vector report is an
                    instantaneous heading towards the strongest signal source. The target
                    will be a point at some unknown location. Three DF vector reports
                    taken at the same time from different locations will all have
                    different lat/long values, and different vectors, but all *should*
                    point to the target location.

                    > At least I see it that way
                    since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found
                    > then it becomes an
                    'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably
                    >
                    splitting hairs at the moment.

                    No, not splitting hares (that would be a bunny hunt!)... it is true
                    that we are all pointing at and describing the same target, but arrows
                    pointing at the target are not the target. If that were the case,
                    driving past a sign on the highway saying "Grande Canyon --->" would
                    be the same as actually being at the Grande Canyon.

                    > I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and
                    speed since '000'
                    > implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of
                    readings are taken,
                    > then the calculated course and speed could be added
                    to maybe determine
                    > an intercept course for the hunter(s).

                    Again, the course and speed reported in the DF object report is the
                    course and speed of the DF object (that's the signpost on the side of
                    the road), not the course and speed of the target. The DF report is
                    simply a direction and quality report, and the object used to describe
                    it is required to describe to the remote observer where the measured
                    directional and quality report was taken from.

                    Are you looking at these reports backwards? The triangle shaped sector
                    does not narrow down and point towards the DF object icon to describe
                    the fox location, but rather the DF object icon shows where the report
                    was initiated, and the directional expands away from there towards the
                    direction that the signal was heard from, where if all goes well, the
                    fox will be located within.

                    James
                    VE6SRV

                  • Fred Hillhouse
                    James, I think Lynn likes answering questions. And, of course, hiding little details in the XML helps. :D Lynn, why not just use the precision of the station
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 4, 2011
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                      James, I think Lynn likes answering questions. And, of course, hiding little details in the XML helps. :D
                       
                      Lynn, why not just use the precision of the station generating the DF object? Does it add more bytes to the packet? I could look it up, but, Lynn likes answering questions anyway.
                       
                      Best regards,
                      Fred
                       

                      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                      Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 19:25
                      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

                       

                      On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 2:49 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

                      > Ever
                      wonder why there's an option for additional digits of precision?
                      > ME is
                      always displayed at full resolution.  Other object's resolution
                      >
                      depend on their DAO settings which defaults to only 0.01 minutes for
                      >
                      your created objects.  Edit the object definition in the XML and set
                      > precision to 2 on the objects.  That'll give you another 1/91
                      precision,
                      > approximately 0.0001 minutes.

                      Aha! There's always a reason... I wish I had waited with my response
                      until after Lynn said this so I could have said "Duh Fred, don't you
                      know anything about digits of precision?" 8)

                      > Question: If a DF object transmits a non-zero course
                      and speed, does the
                      > cone move over time (which makes no sense) and if
                      not, why do I care
                      > that the source of the DF information was moving when
                      the reading was
                      > taken?

                      That's what I was saying... If I were driving down the road, taking DF
                      readings in motion with my Doppler unit, it would be possible to have
                      a course and speed associated with the bearing. However, the bearing
                      reported was reported at a single instance in time. If the object were
                      to be dead reckoned, the DF vector should remain in place where it was
                      reported, even if the reporting station is moving.

                      That could make for an interesting display as the DF vectors would end
                      up being orphaned. There would be no source icon easily associated to
                      the DF vectors. The DF vectors would need to have times associated
                      with them in order to be timed out, even if the source station is
                      still active.

                      The more I look at the way DF reports can be sent in APRS, the more I
                      think that a DF report should always be generated as a DF vector
                      object like APRSISCE/32 does currently.

                      The only reason that I can see for needing a course in a DF report, is
                      if the reporting station hardware can only report a bearing relative
                      to the front of the array. If I am headed north, and my array reports
                      90 degrees, then the DF vector report should face east. However if I
                      am headed east, and my array reports 90 degrees, then the DF vector
                      report should face south.

                      That kind of thing needs to be taken care of within the program
                      creating the DF report though. There's no specification in the APRS DF
                      definition that I have seen yet to specify if the DF report is TRUE or
                      RELATIVE to direction of travel.

                      James
                      VE6SRV

                    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                      I ll try to remember that when I finally figure out how to rotate the symbol bitmaps. Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 4, 2011
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                        I'll try to remember that when I finally figure out how to rotate the symbol bitmaps.

                        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                        On 4/4/2011 12:23 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                        I hate these "DOH" moments. Thanks James for pointing me in the right direction!
                         
                        I liked the 'triangle shaped sector' idea that is pointing to the DF object location.
                         
                        Best regards,
                         
                        Fred, N7FMH


                        From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                        Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 21:08
                        To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

                         

                        On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

                        > Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same?

                        Absolutely not... the fox is your target. The DF vector report is an
                        instantaneous heading towards the strongest signal source. The target
                        will be a point at some unknown location. Three DF vector reports
                        taken at the same time from different locations will all have
                        different lat/long values, and different vectors, but all *should*
                        point to the target location.

                        > At least I see it that way since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found
                        > then it becomes an 'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably
                        > splitting hairs at the moment.

                        No, not splitting hares (that would be a bunny hunt!)... it is true
                        that we are all pointing at and describing the same target, but arrows
                        pointing at the target are not the target. If that were the case,
                        driving past a sign on the highway saying "Grande Canyon --->" would
                        be the same as actually being at the Grande Canyon.

                        > I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and speed since '000'
                        > implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of readings are taken,
                        > then the calculated course and speed could be added to maybe determine
                        > an intercept course for the hunter(s).

                        Again, the course and speed reported in the DF object report is the
                        course and speed of the DF object (that's the signpost on the side of
                        the road), not the course and speed of the target. The DF report is
                        simply a direction and quality report, and the object used to describe
                        it is required to describe to the remote observer where the measured
                        directional and quality report was taken from.

                        Are you looking at these reports backwards? The triangle shaped sector
                        does not narrow down and point towards the DF object icon to describe
                        the fox location, but rather the DF object icon shows where the report
                        was initiated, and the directional expands away from there towards the
                        direction that the signal was heard from, where if all goes well, the
                        fox will be located within.

                        James
                        VE6SRV


                      • Fred Hillhouse
                        Nothing to remember. It already points at the source of the object. This is right. The triangle shaped sector does not narrow down and point towards the DF
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 4, 2011
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                          Nothing to remember. It already points at the source of the object. This is right.
                           
                          "The triangle shaped sector does not narrow down and point towards the DF object icon to describe the fox location, but rather the DF object icon shows where the report was initiated"
                           
                          Best regards,
                          Fred, N7FMH

                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                          Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 13:32
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

                           

                          I'll try to remember that when I finally figure out how to rotate the symbol bitmaps.

                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                          On 4/4/2011 12:23 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                          I hate these "DOH" moments. Thanks James for pointing me in the right direction!
                           
                          I liked the 'triangle shaped sector' idea that is pointing to the DF object location.
                           
                          Best regards,
                           
                          Fred, N7FMH


                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                          Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 21:08
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] DF Object

                           

                          On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

                          > Isn't the DF object (the fox) and DF report object (still the fox) really the same?

                          Absolutely not... the fox is your target. The DF vector report is an
                          instantaneous heading towards the strongest signal source. The target
                          will be a point at some unknown location. Three DF vector reports
                          taken at the same time from different locations will all have
                          different lat/long values, and different vectors, but all *should*
                          point to the target location.

                          > At least I see it that way since I am pointing at the fox. Once the fox is found
                          > then it becomes an 'object' from a collection of 'DF objects'. We are probably
                          > splitting hairs at the moment.

                          No, not splitting hares (that would be a bunny hunt!)... it is true
                          that we are all pointing at and describing the same target, but arrows
                          pointing at the target are not the target. If that were the case,
                          driving past a sign on the highway saying "Grande Canyon --->" would
                          be the same as actually being at the Grande Canyon.

                          > I will agree that '...' is better than '000' for course and speed since '000'
                          > implies it is known to be motionless. Once a series of readings are taken,
                          > then the calculated course and speed could be added to maybe determine
                          > an intercept course for the hunter(s).

                          Again, the course and speed reported in the DF object report is the
                          course and speed of the DF object (that's the signpost on the side of
                          the road), not the course and speed of the target. The DF report is
                          simply a direction and quality report, and the object used to describe
                          it is required to describe to the remote observer where the measured
                          directional and quality report was taken from.

                          Are you looking at these reports backwards? The triangle shaped sector
                          does not narrow down and point towards the DF object icon to describe
                          the fox location, but rather the DF object icon shows where the report
                          was initiated, and the directional expands away from there towards the
                          direction that the signal was heard from, where if all goes well, the
                          fox will be located within.

                          James
                          VE6SRV


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