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Re: Dead Reckoning (was: Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector)

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  • apenadragon
    It s a multi tasking issue of mine, and it s a 19 screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
      It's a multi tasking issue of mine, and it's a 19" screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun when this is used for special events.

      I may be wrong, it may not be painting an icon at the last beacon location, but there is the square dot on the screen, Don't have it in front of me at the moment. There are definatly three positions in play. Last beaconed location, Current location from the GPS info, and the DR projection... honestly, I don't see the issue.... it's interesting, but I dont' see the problem... perhaps there's a way to disable DR on "ME"

      I'll mess with turning DR off on the drive home tonight to confirm if it does or does not make that other image go away. (after I pick up the YL and will make her run the PC of course ) unless of course someone else beats me to it.

      Adam
      KC2ANT

      --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
      > driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
      > the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
      > savings also.
      >
      > I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
      > last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
      > using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
      > don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
      > have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
      > painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
      > moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.
      >
      > I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
      > phone for a walk to test it.
      >
      > And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
      > "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>
      >
      > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
      >
      > On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
      > > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
      > >
      > > it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
      > >
      > >
      > > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
      > >
      > > My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
      > >
      > > When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
      > >
      > > Adam
      > > KC2ANT
      > >
      > > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@> wrote:
      > >> Ah..
      > >>
      > >> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
      > >> direct from an attached GPS. :)
      > >>
      > >> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
      > >> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
      > >> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
      > >> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
      > >> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
      > >>
      > >> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
      > >>
      > >> Pretty sneaky.
      > >>
      > >> Randy
      > >> WF5X
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which a beacon was issued. James s image had a symbol there because his other station used
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
        RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which
        a beacon was issued. James's image had a symbol there because his other
        station used the same symbol. So, in James's picture we had 2 stations
        at the same point, then one moved away beaconing a speed and direction.
        ME's symbol moved with him realtime, while the DR ghost of the same
        symbol moved out in front (or behind) based on his (improperly) current
        speed/heading from the GPS, but the line on the DR (properly) went back
        to his last beaconed position.

        I like the DR on ME from the last beaconed position, but it needs to
        also be based on the then-beaconed speed and heading. It's kind of a
        more visual indication of what the Red Dot shows relatively inside the
        circle. If you accelerate in a straight line since your last beacon,
        the red dot will fall behind and so will the DR ghost symbol. If you
        decelerate, the red dot and the DR ghost will move ahead of your current
        position. If you maintain the speed and heading from your last beacon,
        you'll not even notice the DR ghost because it'll be sitting right on
        top of ME. If you turn, you'll see the DR continue straight out from
        the previous beacon point but visually on the screen it will look like
        it's drifting to one side as ME moves the screen over to stay in the center.

        So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
        rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

        PS. 19" mobile? Wow! I drive a big car (1985 Pontiac Parissienne) but
        I wouldn't have room for 19"! Now my wife's (KJ4OVQ-9) Safari
        might....Hmmmmmm.

        On 4/1/2011 11:32 AM, apenadragon wrote:
        > It's a multi tasking issue of mine, and it's a 19" screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun when this is used for special events.
        >
        > I may be wrong, it may not be painting an icon at the last beacon location, but there is the square dot on the screen, Don't have it in front of me at the moment. There are definatly three positions in play. Last beaconed location, Current location from the GPS info, and the DR projection... honestly, I don't see the issue.... it's interesting, but I dont' see the problem... perhaps there's a way to disable DR on "ME"
        >
        > I'll mess with turning DR off on the drive home tonight to confirm if it does or does not make that other image go away. (after I pick up the YL and will make her run the PC of course ) unless of course someone else beats me to it.
        >
        > Adam
        > KC2ANT
        >
        > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)"<kj4erj@...> wrote:
        >> Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
        >> driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
        >> the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
        >> savings also.
        >>
        >> I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
        >> last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
        >> using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
        >> don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
        >> have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
        >> painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
        >> moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.
        >>
        >> I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
        >> phone for a walk to test it.
        >>
        >> And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
        >> "glass cockpit" thing yet!<grin>
        >>
        >> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
        >>
        >> On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
        >>> I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
        >>>
        >>> it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
        >>>
        >>> My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
        >>>
        >>> When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
        >>>
        >>> Adam
        >>> KC2ANT
        >>>
        >>> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@> wrote:
        >>>> Ah..
        >>>>
        >>>> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
        >>>> direct from an attached GPS. :)
        >>>>
        >>>> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
        >>>> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
        >>>> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
        >>>> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
        >>>> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
        >>>>
        >>>> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
        >>>>
        >>>> Pretty sneaky.
        >>>>
        >>>> Randy
        >>>> WF5X
        >>>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>> ------------------------------------
        >>>
        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • apenadragon
        ... Sounds like you ve got the understanding of what I saw... ... Do you?? personally I don t see the issue... the DR is a projection of where the station
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
          --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
          >
          > RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which
          > a beacon was issued. James's image had a symbol there because his other
          > station used the same symbol. So, in James's picture we had 2 stations
          > at the same point, then one moved away beaconing a speed and direction.
          > ME's symbol moved with him realtime, while the DR ghost of the same
          > symbol moved out in front (or behind) based on his (improperly) current
          > speed/heading from the GPS, but the line on the DR (properly) went back
          > to his last beaconed position.
          >
          > I like the DR on ME from the last beaconed position, but it needs to
          > also be based on the then-beaconed speed and heading. It's kind of a
          > more visual indication of what the Red Dot shows relatively inside the
          > circle. If you accelerate in a straight line since your last beacon,
          > the red dot will fall behind and so will the DR ghost symbol. If you
          > decelerate, the red dot and the DR ghost will move ahead of your current
          > position. If you maintain the speed and heading from your last beacon,
          > you'll not even notice the DR ghost because it'll be sitting right on
          > top of ME. If you turn, you'll see the DR continue straight out from
          > the previous beacon point but visually on the screen it will look like
          > it's drifting to one side as ME moves the screen over to stay in the center.


          Sounds like you've got the understanding of what I saw...


          >
          > So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
          > rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.

          Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where the station "should" be...

          Can you tie the DR for ME with the Red Dot? I may be understanding it wrong, but I thought the Red Dot was the same thing showing up on the local screen... I turned mine off, I know where I am, and I know where I'm going, I don't really need to see the red dot, or my own DR icon, but it'd be handy to be able to still see everyone else's

          >
          > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          >
          > PS. 19" mobile? Wow! I drive a big car (1985 Pontiac Parissienne) but
          > I wouldn't have room for 19"! Now my wife's (KJ4OVQ-9) Safari
          > might....Hmmmmmm.

          '06 Dodge Durango, my laptop fits nicely in the passanger seat, AND I found a USB to serial converter that seems to be working with Windows 7 to let me use the D700 when I need it for special events, or when the YL's (KC2ULK) lap needs to be warmed up ;)


          Adam
          KC2ANT (appretiative user of APRSIS32)
        • James Ewen
          ... Actually Adam, it sounds like you re missing the issue. If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from the last reported location,
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
            On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon <kc2ant@...> wrote:

            >> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
            >> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
            >
            > Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
            > the station "should" be...

            Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.

            If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
            the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
            will move to where the station "could" be.

            The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
            speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
            information from the last reported location.

            Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
            a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
            reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.

            The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
            the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
            were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
            an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
            of the originally reported position.

            Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
            location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
            location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
            location for a future position report based on the current speed and
            course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
            reported position.

            When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
            happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
            constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
            or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
            along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
            that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
            the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.

            James
            VE6SRV
          • apenadragon
            That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map?? I guess that s the question, if you have your Red
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
              That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??

              I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)

              if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.

              Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)

              So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.

              If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

              It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.

              Adam
              KC2ANT



              --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon <kc2ant@...> wrote:
              >
              > >> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
              > >> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
              > >
              > > Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
              > > the station "should" be...
              >
              > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
              >
              > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
              > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
              > will move to where the station "could" be.
              >
              > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
              > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
              > information from the last reported location.
              >
              > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
              > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
              > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
              >
              > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
              > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
              > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
              > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
              > of the originally reported position.
              >
              > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
              > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
              > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
              > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
              > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
              > reported position.
              >
              > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
              > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
              > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
              > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
              > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
              > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
              > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
              >
              > James
              > VE6SRV
              >
            • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
              Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you that can (safely)
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the
                solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you
                that can (safely) see your screen while mobile can test (and hopefully
                verify) my correction. I base the Dead Reckoning of ME on whether or
                not you have Configure / Beacon / CourseSpeed checked. If so, ME will
                dead reckon based on the (hopefully) same information a recipient of
                your last beaconed packet would be using. If you don't beacon
                CourseSpeed, then I don't DR ME since you KNOW where you are and where
                you're heading and you haven't told anyone else anyway.

                As for the difference/similarity of ME's DR vs the Red Dot.... If you
                measure the deviation between ME's actual position and the corresponding
                DR symbol, scale that according to the Configure / Genius / Forecast
                Error setting, you'll have a bearing (from actual to DR) and a
                percentage of error (distance / Forecast Error * 100%). Plot that
                value on the circle based on the compass points where touching the
                circle = 100% and you have the red dot, a Visualization of the range and
                direction of the error between a time-based extrapolation of your last
                beaconed position, speed, and course vs your actual current position, in
                other words, the red dot displays the magnitude and direction of the
                error between where an outside observer thinks you are based on the time
                since and values within your last beacon and where you know yourself to
                actually be.

                If the DR is on top of you (constant, straight line motion), the red dot
                will be on top of you and invisible. You won't see the DR symbol
                either, most likely.

                If you speed up (still in a straight line), the DR symbol will start
                falling behind, and the red dot will start drifting towards the circle,
                lagging directly behind your current direction of motion, but the DR and
                red dot will be at different rates because the red dot is a percentage
                of the allowed Forecast Error (when it touches the circle), and the DR
                will be where that outside observer would think you are. So, the DR
                moves according to map scale and the red dot moves according to the
                magnitude of the allowed Forecast Error.

                If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                Florida for long distances), the DR symbol will start pulling out in
                front of your direction of motion, and so will the red dot, again at
                different rates. If you take the distance between your actual position
                and the DR symbol, divide it by the configured Forecast Error, that's
                relatively how far the red dot will be between the center and edge of
                the circle, still in your direction of motion.

                I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out where the DR
                and red dots will go if you vary just the direction and maintain speed
                (should drift away from you at 90 degrees) or if you vary both speed and
                direction.

                For extra credit, you can play the "red dot game" (yes, this is
                absolutely worse than just glancing at the APRSISCE/32 screen while
                driving). Purposely vary your speed and/or direction to control where
                the red dot is on the circle. Hint: it's a lot easier if you have a
                very long stretch of very straight road and works fairly well at giving
                you something to do to stay alert, even if not truly looking where
                you're going). Hint #2: it's highly discouraged to attempt to control
                the red dot in any orientation other than directly ahead or behind your
                current heading unless you're driving on a salt flat or something.
                Think about it....

                Now, to quit typing, do a few release notes entries, and get this
                development release out there for testing!

                Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                >
                >>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                >>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                >> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                >> the station "should" be...
                > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                >
                > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                > will move to where the station "could" be.
                >
                > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                > information from the last reported location.
                >
                > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                >
                > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                > of the originally reported position.
                >
                > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                > reported position.
                >
                > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                >
                > James
                > VE6SRV
              • apenadragon
                ok, that invovled more math than my sleep deprived mind can handle at the moment, will try it again tomorrow when I ve had some sleep. regardless, I ve got my
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                  ok, that invovled more math than my sleep deprived mind can handle at the moment, will try it again tomorrow when I've had some sleep.

                  regardless, I've got my red dot turned off as it doesn't give me anything useful for my purposes.

                  If I can get the new Dev version before I leave at 3pm I'll have the YL see what it does as we drive home.

                  Adam
                  KC2ANT

                  and James, thanks for your patience in trying to educate me. I'm playing catch up on some of this stuff.

                  --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the
                  > solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you
                  > that can (safely) see your screen while mobile can test (and hopefully
                  > verify) my correction. I base the Dead Reckoning of ME on whether or
                  > not you have Configure / Beacon / CourseSpeed checked. If so, ME will
                  > dead reckon based on the (hopefully) same information a recipient of
                  > your last beaconed packet would be using. If you don't beacon
                  > CourseSpeed, then I don't DR ME since you KNOW where you are and where
                  > you're heading and you haven't told anyone else anyway.
                  >
                  > As for the difference/similarity of ME's DR vs the Red Dot.... If you
                  > measure the deviation between ME's actual position and the corresponding
                  > DR symbol, scale that according to the Configure / Genius / Forecast
                  > Error setting, you'll have a bearing (from actual to DR) and a
                  > percentage of error (distance / Forecast Error * 100%). Plot that
                  > value on the circle based on the compass points where touching the
                  > circle = 100% and you have the red dot, a Visualization of the range and
                  > direction of the error between a time-based extrapolation of your last
                  > beaconed position, speed, and course vs your actual current position, in
                  > other words, the red dot displays the magnitude and direction of the
                  > error between where an outside observer thinks you are based on the time
                  > since and values within your last beacon and where you know yourself to
                  > actually be.
                  >
                  > If the DR is on top of you (constant, straight line motion), the red dot
                  > will be on top of you and invisible. You won't see the DR symbol
                  > either, most likely.
                  >
                  > If you speed up (still in a straight line), the DR symbol will start
                  > falling behind, and the red dot will start drifting towards the circle,
                  > lagging directly behind your current direction of motion, but the DR and
                  > red dot will be at different rates because the red dot is a percentage
                  > of the allowed Forecast Error (when it touches the circle), and the DR
                  > will be where that outside observer would think you are. So, the DR
                  > moves according to map scale and the red dot moves according to the
                  > magnitude of the allowed Forecast Error.
                  >
                  > If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                  > Florida for long distances), the DR symbol will start pulling out in
                  > front of your direction of motion, and so will the red dot, again at
                  > different rates. If you take the distance between your actual position
                  > and the DR symbol, divide it by the configured Forecast Error, that's
                  > relatively how far the red dot will be between the center and edge of
                  > the circle, still in your direction of motion.
                  >
                  > I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out where the DR
                  > and red dots will go if you vary just the direction and maintain speed
                  > (should drift away from you at 90 degrees) or if you vary both speed and
                  > direction.
                  >
                  > For extra credit, you can play the "red dot game" (yes, this is
                  > absolutely worse than just glancing at the APRSISCE/32 screen while
                  > driving). Purposely vary your speed and/or direction to control where
                  > the red dot is on the circle. Hint: it's a lot easier if you have a
                  > very long stretch of very straight road and works fairly well at giving
                  > you something to do to stay alert, even if not truly looking where
                  > you're going). Hint #2: it's highly discouraged to attempt to control
                  > the red dot in any orientation other than directly ahead or behind your
                  > current heading unless you're driving on a salt flat or something.
                  > Think about it....
                  >
                  > Now, to quit typing, do a few release notes entries, and get this
                  > development release out there for testing!
                  >
                  > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                  >
                  > On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                  > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                  > >>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                  > >> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                  > >> the station "should" be...
                  > > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                  > >
                  > > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                  > > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                  > > will move to where the station "could" be.
                  > >
                  > > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                  > > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                  > > information from the last reported location.
                  > >
                  > > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                  > > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                  > > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                  > >
                  > > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                  > > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                  > > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                  > > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                  > > of the originally reported position.
                  > >
                  > > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                  > > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                  > > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                  > > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                  > > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                  > > reported position.
                  > >
                  > > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                  > > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                  > > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                  > > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                  > > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                  > > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                  > > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                  > >
                  > > James
                  > > VE6SRV
                  >
                • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                  ... As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For non-interested parties, that s why you can turn it off. ... Nope, the scales are
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                    On 4/1/2011 2:17 PM, apenadragon wrote:
                    > That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??

                    As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For
                    non-interested parties, that's why you can turn it off.

                    > I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)

                    Nope, the scales are different. DR is in map scale miles. Red Dot is
                    in % of Genius / Forecast Error where the circle is 100%.

                    > if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.

                    It shows the originating station where an outside observer would think
                    you are, relative to your desired maximum error in the red dot, and
                    actual forecasted position in the DR symbol.

                    > Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)

                    You are correct. The overriding current factor is what is displayed as
                    a percentage towards the beacon ("Transmit Pressure") in the APRS-IS OK
                    pane on the display as well as the bottom-most bar at the bottom of that
                    pane. Hit Transmit and you'll see that bar drop back to zero (left) and
                    start growing to the right and morphing from green to red based on the
                    displayed Transmit Pressure.

                    > So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.

                    Different scales as already mentioned, so they may be in the same
                    relative location as ME (I'm still not sure about that), but probably
                    different distances away.

                    > If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

                    It shows you what other's would believe based on what you've told them.

                    > It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.

                    To turn off DR for ME, you'll have to turn off Configure / Beacon /
                    CourseSpeed as I've coupled them together in the upcoming release.
                    Prior to that, if you have Screen / Dead Reckoning turned on, it'll DR
                    me. With the upcoming release, if you are beaconing CourseSpeed, then
                    you'll be seeing what you're leading others to believe. I think it will
                    be informative.

                    Of course, turning off Screen / Dead Reckoning turns it off for both ME
                    and others.

                    Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                    > Adam
                    > KC2ANT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen<ve6srv@...> wrote:
                    >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                    >>>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                    >>> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                    >>> the station "should" be...
                    >> Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                    >>
                    >> If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                    >> the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                    >> will move to where the station "could" be.
                    >>
                    >> The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                    >> speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                    >> information from the last reported location.
                    >>
                    >> Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                    >> a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                    >> reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                    >>
                    >> The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                    >> the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                    >> were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                    >> an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                    >> of the originally reported position.
                    >>
                    >> Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                    >> location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                    >> location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                    >> location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                    >> course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                    >> reported position.
                    >>
                    >> When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                    >> happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                    >> constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                    >> or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                    >> along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                    >> that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                    >> the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                    >>
                    >> James
                    >> VE6SRV
                    >>
                  • apenadragon
                    I think I m starting to get it now, I m pretty sure the math its self would drive me batty at the moment, but I think I m getting the concept... I ll be
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                      I think I'm starting to get it now, I'm pretty sure the math its self would drive me batty at the moment, but I think I'm getting the concept... I'll be interested to watch it on the way home (thinking about making the YL drive home) and see what the differeces are between the DR icon, and the Red Dot.

                      I like the DR feature, and I'm going to transmit course and speed normally, so I'll just deal with seeing the DR on my screen and say thanks for putting up with us unedumacated youngsters.

                      Adam
                      KC2ANT

                      --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 4/1/2011 2:17 PM, apenadragon wrote:
                      > > That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??
                      >
                      > As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For
                      > non-interested parties, that's why you can turn it off.
                      >
                      > > I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)
                      >
                      > Nope, the scales are different. DR is in map scale miles. Red Dot is
                      > in % of Genius / Forecast Error where the circle is 100%.
                      >
                      > > if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.
                      >
                      > It shows the originating station where an outside observer would think
                      > you are, relative to your desired maximum error in the red dot, and
                      > actual forecasted position in the DR symbol.
                      >
                      > > Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)
                      >
                      > You are correct. The overriding current factor is what is displayed as
                      > a percentage towards the beacon ("Transmit Pressure") in the APRS-IS OK
                      > pane on the display as well as the bottom-most bar at the bottom of that
                      > pane. Hit Transmit and you'll see that bar drop back to zero (left) and
                      > start growing to the right and morphing from green to red based on the
                      > displayed Transmit Pressure.
                      >
                      > > So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.
                      >
                      > Different scales as already mentioned, so they may be in the same
                      > relative location as ME (I'm still not sure about that), but probably
                      > different distances away.
                      >
                      > > If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.
                      >
                      > It shows you what other's would believe based on what you've told them.
                      >
                      > > It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.
                      >
                      > To turn off DR for ME, you'll have to turn off Configure / Beacon /
                      > CourseSpeed as I've coupled them together in the upcoming release.
                      > Prior to that, if you have Screen / Dead Reckoning turned on, it'll DR
                      > me. With the upcoming release, if you are beaconing CourseSpeed, then
                      > you'll be seeing what you're leading others to believe. I think it will
                      > be informative.
                      >
                      > Of course, turning off Screen / Dead Reckoning turns it off for both ME
                      > and others.
                      >
                      > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                      >
                      > > Adam
                      > > KC2ANT
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen<ve6srv@> wrote:
                      > >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                      > >>>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                      > >>> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                      > >>> the station "should" be...
                      > >> Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                      > >>
                      > >> If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                      > >> the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                      > >> will move to where the station "could" be.
                      > >>
                      > >> The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                      > >> speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                      > >> information from the last reported location.
                      > >>
                      > >> Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                      > >> a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                      > >> reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                      > >>
                      > >> The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                      > >> the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                      > >> were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                      > >> an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                      > >> of the originally reported position.
                      > >>
                      > >> Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                      > >> location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                      > >> location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                      > >> location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                      > >> course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                      > >> reported position.
                      > >>
                      > >> When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                      > >> happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                      > >> constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                      > >> or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                      > >> along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                      > >> that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                      > >> the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                      > >>
                      > >> James
                      > >> VE6SRV
                      > >>
                      >
                    • Fred Hillhouse
                      % of Genius I hate it when the % of Genius is low. I either go home or grab more coffee!
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                        "% of Genius"

                        I hate it when the % of Genius is low. I either go home or grab more coffee!
                      • Gary Sanders
                        ... And, since this IS Florida we re talking about, the vehicle slowing down in a straight line for a long distance would probably be a Mercury Marquis, in the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                          On 4/1/2011 2:21 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                          >
                          > If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                          > Florida for long distances),

                          And, since this IS Florida we're talking about, the vehicle slowing down
                          in a straight line for a long distance would probably be a Mercury
                          Marquis, in the center lane, with the turn signal flashing, and totally
                          oblivious.

                          (Sent from a fellow Florida resident, who may indeed be in the center
                          lane himself... :) ).

                          Gary Sanders WB0BZR
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