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Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector

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  • James Ewen
    Okay, what s this thingy now? I noticed it appear about a dozen version releases ago, but have been too preoccupied with all the other goodies. [image:
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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      Okay, what's this thingy now?

      I noticed it appear about a dozen version releases ago, but have been too preoccupied with all the other goodies.

      vector.png

      The laptop icon with VE6SRV beside it is my starting location. The laptop just crossing Wye Road is my actual location, as plotted from the GPS information gleaned from the D710 APRS data stream. The laptop icon at the bottom of the image appears to be an instantaneous course speed vector. Why it emanates from an old position report has me baffled, as does the concept behind the vector. What information is being presented by this display?

      I think I missed an explanation along the way...

      James
      VE6SRV
    • Randy Love
      It is a dead reckoning estimate of your location based on the speed and course received from that old packet. Then next posit you send will update to your
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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        It is a dead reckoning estimate of your location based on the speed and course received from that 'old' packet.

        Then next posit you send will update to your current location, and if there was a speed and course associated with it, the dead reckoning projection will start all over again..

        Randy
        WF5X

      • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        If you uncheck Screen / Dead Reckoning, does it all go away? (Sight unseen guessing here as the image didn t come through) Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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          If you uncheck Screen / Dead Reckoning, does it all go away?  (Sight unseen guessing here as the image didn't come through)

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          On 3/31/2011 10:34 PM, James Ewen wrote: Okay, what's this thingy now?

          I noticed it appear about a dozen version releases ago, but have been too preoccupied with all the other goodies.

          vector.png

          The laptop icon with VE6SRV beside it is my starting location. The laptop just crossing Wye Road is my actual location, as plotted from the GPS information gleaned from the D710 APRS data stream. The laptop icon at the bottom of the image appears to be an instantaneous course speed vector. Why it emanates from an old position report has me baffled, as does the concept behind the vector. What information is being presented by this display?

          I think I missed an explanation along the way...

          James
          VE6SRV

        • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
          Randy s right, that s dead reckoning. And because the line is red, it s stretched about as far away as it s going to before disappearing (limit is 5 minutes).
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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            Randy's right, that's dead reckoning.  And because the line is red, it's stretched about as far away as it's going to before disappearing (limit is 5 minutes).  Apparently, you beaconed a course and speed to trigger this, although you can have up to three of them going depending on your selections in Screen / Labels / Speed.

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

            PS.  Here's a new copy of the image for those that may have missed it in the original message, I know I did until I jumped through a hoop or two to dig it out. - James, I just copy / paste the image directly into Thunderbird and I haven't heard of anyone having issues seeing them.




            On 3/31/2011 10:52 PM, Randy Love wrote: It is a dead reckoning estimate of your location based on the speed and course received from that 'old' packet.

            Then next posit you send will update to your current location, and if there was a speed and course associated with it, the dead reckoning projection will start all over again..

            Randy
            WF5X


          • James Ewen
            On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... the web. Care to try again? Hmm, interesting because this reply that you sent
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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            • 126 KB
            On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <KJ4ERJ@...> wrote:

            > Missing the image both in my Thunderbird and when viewing your message on the web.  Care to try again?

            Hmm, interesting because this reply that you sent has a copy of the image in it according to my email client!

            vector.png

            I have inserted the image inline again, as well as attached a file, and sent one to the list, and one direct to Lynn.

            Let's see if that works.

            James
            VE6SRV
          • James Ewen
            ... Nope, can t be that because dead reckoning is based on the last known course and speed... this vector changes angle and size based on instantaneous changes
            Message 6 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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              On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:52 PM, Randy Love <rlove31@...> wrote:

              > It is a dead reckoning estimate of your location based on the
              > speed and course received from that 'old' packet.

              Nope, can't be that because dead reckoning is based on the last known
              course and speed... this vector changes angle and size based on
              instantaneous changes in course and speed. It also emanates from an
              old location, not the current location. Also, since the current
              location is currently where I am located, dead reckoning from the
              current location would put me right where I would be on the next
              screen update... These vectors extend well beyond a dead reckoned
              position, if they emanated from the current position.

              > Then next posit you send will update to your current location, and if there
              > was a speed and course associated with it, the dead reckoning projection
              > will start all over again..

              I used to see that when driving down the road, and having the D710
              beaconing as VE6SRV, with APRSISCE/32 running as VE6SRV-9. When the
              D710 would beacon, a truck would get plotted at my current location,
              and then the DR truck would wander along right with my laptop icon
              from APRSISCE/32. The two would only deviate if I changed velocity or
              course.

              James
              VE6SRV
            • James Ewen
              On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... That s not a dead reckoning line, see my reasoning in the message to Randy. That red line is
              Message 7 of 25 , Mar 31, 2011
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                On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                <kj4erj@...> wrote:

                > Randy's right, that's dead reckoning.  And because the line is red,
                > it's stretched about as far away as it's going to before disappearing
                > (limit is 5 minutes).

                That's not a dead reckoning line, see my reasoning in the message to
                Randy. That "red" line is approximately 5 seconds old, because I was
                stopped at the traffic light on Wye Road. I just accelerated away from
                the traffic light, and as I did so, the vector line grew in length.
                When I was slowing down for the traffic light previously, the vector
                line retracted back to zero length as my speed decreased.

                > Apparently, you beaconed a course and speed to trigger this

                Nope, as my original subject line indicated, and as I continue to use
                the term, the course and speed vector indicates INSTANTANEOUS course
                and speed, not a previously transmitted static value. If I were to
                come to a stop while travelling southbound on RR 232, the vector line
                would shrink, and the laptop icon at the southern end of the line
                would retract back to where the laptop icon with the VE6SRV label is
                located. If I were to make a left turn into the Estates of Sherwood
                Park, the instantaneous course and speed vector would swing and point
                east from the laptop icon with the VE6SRV label.

                Dead reckoning still works the way it is supposed to on other
                stations. They still crawl along at appropriate speeds, showing where
                the station could be based on the last known course and speed. This
                instantaneous course and speed looks kind of like the red dot meatball
                that used to wander around my screen in a haphazard manner until I
                disabled it.

                Is anyone else seeing this behavior, or do I have to find a screen
                capture utility to grab a video of the craziness in action?

                James
                VE6SRV
              • Randy Love
                Ah.. Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data direct from an attached GPS. :) Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye
                Message 8 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                  Ah..

                  Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data direct from an attached GPS.  :)

                  Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.

                  That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.

                  Pretty sneaky.

                  Randy
                  WF5X

                • apenadragon
                  I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction... it took me a few moments to sort
                  Message 9 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                    I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...

                    it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....


                    yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...

                    My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.

                    When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.

                    Adam
                    KC2ANT

                    --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love <rlove31@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ah..
                    >
                    > Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                    > direct from an attached GPS. :)
                    >
                    > Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                    > currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                    > position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                    > reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                    > up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                    >
                    > That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                    >
                    > Pretty sneaky.
                    >
                    > Randy
                    > WF5X
                    >
                  • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                    Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are driving. The reason I haven t noticed this is that I toss the phone on the dash while in
                    Message 10 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                      Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                      driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                      the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                      savings also.

                      I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                      last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                      using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                      don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                      have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                      painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                      moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.

                      I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                      phone for a walk to test it.

                      And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                      "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>

                      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                      On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
                      > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                      >
                      > it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                      >
                      >
                      > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
                      >
                      > My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                      >
                      > When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                      >
                      > Adam
                      > KC2ANT
                      >
                      > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@...> wrote:
                      >> Ah..
                      >>
                      >> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                      >> direct from an attached GPS. :)
                      >>
                      >> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                      >> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                      >> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                      >> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                      >> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                      >>
                      >> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                      >>
                      >> Pretty sneaky.
                      >>
                      >> Randy
                      >> WF5X
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Nigel Gunn G8IFF/W8IFF
                      YET! So the full glass cockpit is coming if we wait long enough? On 01-Apr-11 12:10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: APRSISCE/32 doesn t do the
                      Message 11 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                        YET! So the full glass cockpit is coming if we wait long enough?

                        On 01-Apr-11 12:10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                        APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                        > "glass cockpit" thing yet!<grin>
                        >
                      • Fred Hillhouse
                        What!? Yours isn t a HUD display yet? We need Lynn to mount a netbook in his vehicle! It will be an eye-opener sometimes. Best regards, Fred, N7FMH _____ From:
                        Message 12 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                          What!?
                           
                          Yours isn't a HUD display yet?
                           
                          We need Lynn to mount a netbook in his vehicle! It will be an eye-opener sometimes.
                           
                          Best regards,
                          Fred, N7FMH


                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                          Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 08:11
                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: Dead Reckoning (was: Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector)

                           

                          Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                          driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                          the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                          savings also.

                          I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                          last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                          using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                          don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                          have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                          painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                          moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.

                          I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                          phone for a walk to test it.

                          And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                          "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>

                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                          On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:

                          > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and
                          happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                          >
                          >
                          it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                          >
                          >
                          > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds
                          amusing to go try...
                          >
                          > My thought is that DR works on the latest
                          information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                          >
                          >
                          When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                          >
                          > Adam
                          > KC2ANT
                          >
                          > --- In
                          href="mailto:aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com">aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@...> wrote:
                          >> Ah..
                          >>
                          >> Well,
                          you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                          >>
                          direct from an attached GPS. :)
                          >>
                          >> Lynn can confirm this,
                          but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                          >> currently showing.
                          The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                          >> position.
                          And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                          >>
                          reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                          >>
                          up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                          >>
                          >>
                          That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                          >>
                          >>
                          Pretty sneaky.
                          >>
                          >> Randy
                          >>
                          WF5X
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups
                          Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                        • Fred Hillhouse
                          That was a bit repetitiously redundant; HUD display. _____ From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hillhouse Sent:
                          Message 13 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                            That was a bit repetitiously redundant; HUD display.


                            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hillhouse
                            Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 09:47
                            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [aprsisce] Re: Dead Reckoning (was: Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector)

                             

                            What!?
                             
                            Yours isn't a HUD display yet?
                             
                            We need Lynn to mount a netbook in his vehicle! It will be an eye-opener sometimes.
                             
                            Best regards,
                            Fred, N7FMH


                            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                            Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 08:11
                            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: Dead Reckoning (was: Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector)

                             

                            Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                            driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                            the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                            savings also.

                            I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                            last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                            using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                            don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                            have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                            painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                            moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.

                            I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                            phone for a walk to test it.

                            And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                            "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>

                            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                            On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:

                            > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and
                            happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                            >
                            >
                            it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                            >
                            >
                            > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds
                            amusing to go try...
                            >
                            > My thought is that DR works on the latest
                            information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                            >
                            >
                            When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                            >
                            > Adam
                            > KC2ANT
                            >
                            > --- In
                            href="mailto:aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com">aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@...> wrote:
                            >> Ah..
                            >>
                            >> Well,
                            you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                            >>
                            direct from an attached GPS. :)
                            >>
                            >> Lynn can confirm this,
                            but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                            >> currently showing.
                            The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                            >> position.
                            And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                            >>
                            reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                            >>
                            up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                            >>
                            >>
                            That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                            >>
                            >>
                            Pretty sneaky.
                            >>
                            >> Randy
                            >>
                            WF5X
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups
                            Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                          • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                            Yeah, my eyes would open really wide every time I narrowly avoid an oncoming vehicle. I ve actually tried angling my phone to reflect in the windshield, but
                            Message 14 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                              Yeah, my eyes would open really wide every time I narrowly avoid an oncoming vehicle.

                              I've actually tried angling my phone to reflect in the windshield, but the image is turned around and it's obviously a bit tiny.

                              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                              On 4/1/2011 9:47 AM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                              What!?
                               
                              Yours isn't a HUD display yet?
                               
                              We need Lynn to mount a netbook in his vehicle! It will be an eye-opener sometimes.
                               
                              Best regards,
                              Fred, N7FMH


                              From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                              Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 08:11
                              To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Re: Dead Reckoning (was: Instantaneous Course/Speed Vector)

                               

                              Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                              driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                              the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                              savings also.

                              I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                              last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                              using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                              don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                              have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                              painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                              moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.

                              I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                              phone for a walk to test it.

                              And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                              "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>

                              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                              On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
                              > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                              >
                              > it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                              >
                              >
                              > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
                              >
                              > My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                              >
                              > When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                              >
                              > Adam
                              > KC2ANT
                              >
                              > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@...> wrote:
                              >> Ah..
                              >>
                              >> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                              >> direct from an attached GPS. :)
                              >>
                              >> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                              >> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                              >> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                              >> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                              >> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                              >>
                              >> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                              >>
                              >> Pretty sneaky.
                              >>
                              >> Randy
                              >> WF5X
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                            • apenadragon
                              It s a multi tasking issue of mine, and it s a 19 screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun
                              Message 15 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                It's a multi tasking issue of mine, and it's a 19" screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun when this is used for special events.

                                I may be wrong, it may not be painting an icon at the last beacon location, but there is the square dot on the screen, Don't have it in front of me at the moment. There are definatly three positions in play. Last beaconed location, Current location from the GPS info, and the DR projection... honestly, I don't see the issue.... it's interesting, but I dont' see the problem... perhaps there's a way to disable DR on "ME"

                                I'll mess with turning DR off on the drive home tonight to confirm if it does or does not make that other image go away. (after I pick up the YL and will make her run the PC of course ) unless of course someone else beats me to it.

                                Adam
                                KC2ANT

                                --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                                > driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                                > the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                                > savings also.
                                >
                                > I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                                > last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                                > using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                                > don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                                > have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                                > painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                                > moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.
                                >
                                > I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                                > phone for a walk to test it.
                                >
                                > And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                                > "glass cockpit" thing yet! <grin>
                                >
                                > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                >
                                > On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
                                > > I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                                > >
                                > > it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
                                > >
                                > > My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                                > >
                                > > When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                                > >
                                > > Adam
                                > > KC2ANT
                                > >
                                > > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@> wrote:
                                > >> Ah..
                                > >>
                                > >> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                                > >> direct from an attached GPS. :)
                                > >>
                                > >> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                                > >> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                                > >> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                                > >> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                                > >> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                                > >>
                                > >> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                                > >>
                                > >> Pretty sneaky.
                                > >>
                                > >> Randy
                                > >> WF5X
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which a beacon was issued. James s image had a symbol there because his other station used
                                Message 16 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which
                                  a beacon was issued. James's image had a symbol there because his other
                                  station used the same symbol. So, in James's picture we had 2 stations
                                  at the same point, then one moved away beaconing a speed and direction.
                                  ME's symbol moved with him realtime, while the DR ghost of the same
                                  symbol moved out in front (or behind) based on his (improperly) current
                                  speed/heading from the GPS, but the line on the DR (properly) went back
                                  to his last beaconed position.

                                  I like the DR on ME from the last beaconed position, but it needs to
                                  also be based on the then-beaconed speed and heading. It's kind of a
                                  more visual indication of what the Red Dot shows relatively inside the
                                  circle. If you accelerate in a straight line since your last beacon,
                                  the red dot will fall behind and so will the DR ghost symbol. If you
                                  decelerate, the red dot and the DR ghost will move ahead of your current
                                  position. If you maintain the speed and heading from your last beacon,
                                  you'll not even notice the DR ghost because it'll be sitting right on
                                  top of ME. If you turn, you'll see the DR continue straight out from
                                  the previous beacon point but visually on the screen it will look like
                                  it's drifting to one side as ME moves the screen over to stay in the center.

                                  So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                  rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.

                                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                  PS. 19" mobile? Wow! I drive a big car (1985 Pontiac Parissienne) but
                                  I wouldn't have room for 19"! Now my wife's (KJ4OVQ-9) Safari
                                  might....Hmmmmmm.

                                  On 4/1/2011 11:32 AM, apenadragon wrote:
                                  > It's a multi tasking issue of mine, and it's a 19" screen... this is NOT my normal operation. Although I will be having an assistant, or be riding shot gun when this is used for special events.
                                  >
                                  > I may be wrong, it may not be painting an icon at the last beacon location, but there is the square dot on the screen, Don't have it in front of me at the moment. There are definatly three positions in play. Last beaconed location, Current location from the GPS info, and the DR projection... honestly, I don't see the issue.... it's interesting, but I dont' see the problem... perhaps there's a way to disable DR on "ME"
                                  >
                                  > I'll mess with turning DR off on the drive home tonight to confirm if it does or does not make that other image go away. (after I pick up the YL and will make her run the PC of course ) unless of course someone else beats me to it.
                                  >
                                  > Adam
                                  > KC2ANT
                                  >
                                  > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)"<kj4erj@...> wrote:
                                  >> Ok, remind me not to be anywhere near the road on which you all are
                                  >> driving. The reason I haven't noticed this is that I toss the phone on
                                  >> the dash while in motion. Oh, and I might have DR turned off for power
                                  >> savings also.
                                  >>
                                  >> I think you've nailed the bug well, I suspect that I'm not recording the
                                  >> last beaconed course and speed for the purposes of DR, but am actually
                                  >> using the most current values from the GPS, but only for ME (obviously I
                                  >> don't have a more current course and speed for anyone else). I know I
                                  >> have the last beaconed position, but I really didn't think I was
                                  >> painting a station there, but I'm not surprised about the one at the
                                  >> moving end of the DR line, it makes sense.
                                  >>
                                  >> I'll see if I can remember to do something about this and then take my
                                  >> phone for a walk to test it.
                                  >>
                                  >> And remember, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD! APRSISCE/32 doesn't do the
                                  >> "glass cockpit" thing yet!<grin>
                                  >>
                                  >> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                  >>
                                  >> On 4/1/2011 7:52 AM, apenadragon wrote:
                                  >>> I actually witnessed this when driving home the other day, and happened to spot my DR icon moving in the opposite direction...
                                  >>>
                                  >>> it took me a few moments to sort out what was happening, I had an icon where the last beacon took place, I had my current location, and then I had this third icon at the end of the DR line, as my speed and direction changed the DR icon moved in relation to the last beaconed icon according to my CURRENT direction and speed... I imagine that if one were to go to a parking lot and drive in a large circle at the right speed they could get the DR icon to pass through a full 360 degree arc outside the actual current location....
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> yeah, i need more sleep because that sounds amusing to go try...
                                  >>>
                                  >>> My thought is that DR works on the latest information available to the program in relation to course and speed... when receiving another station all you have is the information that it beaconed, or that was calculated, depending on how APRSIS is configured, so the DR line goes in one direction until expiration or a new beacon is recieved.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> When DRing your self, the program has updated information on course and speed every 2-5 seconds, and changes the DR line accordingly... Travel at 30mph, and then as soon as the beacon goes out, count to 5 and then come to a stop as if stopping at a stop light, you'll watch your DR icon travel backwards. Just dont' hit anything.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Adam
                                  >>> KC2ANT
                                  >>>
                                  >>> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, Randy Love<rlove31@> wrote:
                                  >>>> Ah..
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Well, you have the added benefit of dynamic dead reckoning because of data
                                  >>>> direct from an attached GPS. :)
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Lynn can confirm this, but the laptop at Wye road is what your GPS is
                                  >>>> currently showing. The laptop at the top of the line is your last beaconed
                                  >>>> position. And then the software is using that position to base your dead
                                  >>>> reckoning projections, but appears that Lynn was sneeking and using
                                  >>>> up-to-date GPS data for the ME dead reckon calculations.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> That would explain what's happening. Lynn can confirm.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Pretty sneaky.
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> Randy
                                  >>>> WF5X
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> ------------------------------------
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • apenadragon
                                  ... Sounds like you ve got the understanding of what I saw... ... Do you?? personally I don t see the issue... the DR is a projection of where the station
                                  Message 17 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > RIGHT! That makes sense. The black square is the track point at which
                                    > a beacon was issued. James's image had a symbol there because his other
                                    > station used the same symbol. So, in James's picture we had 2 stations
                                    > at the same point, then one moved away beaconing a speed and direction.
                                    > ME's symbol moved with him realtime, while the DR ghost of the same
                                    > symbol moved out in front (or behind) based on his (improperly) current
                                    > speed/heading from the GPS, but the line on the DR (properly) went back
                                    > to his last beaconed position.
                                    >
                                    > I like the DR on ME from the last beaconed position, but it needs to
                                    > also be based on the then-beaconed speed and heading. It's kind of a
                                    > more visual indication of what the Red Dot shows relatively inside the
                                    > circle. If you accelerate in a straight line since your last beacon,
                                    > the red dot will fall behind and so will the DR ghost symbol. If you
                                    > decelerate, the red dot and the DR ghost will move ahead of your current
                                    > position. If you maintain the speed and heading from your last beacon,
                                    > you'll not even notice the DR ghost because it'll be sitting right on
                                    > top of ME. If you turn, you'll see the DR continue straight out from
                                    > the previous beacon point but visually on the screen it will look like
                                    > it's drifting to one side as ME moves the screen over to stay in the center.


                                    Sounds like you've got the understanding of what I saw...


                                    >
                                    > So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                    > rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.

                                    Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where the station "should" be...

                                    Can you tie the DR for ME with the Red Dot? I may be understanding it wrong, but I thought the Red Dot was the same thing showing up on the local screen... I turned mine off, I know where I am, and I know where I'm going, I don't really need to see the red dot, or my own DR icon, but it'd be handy to be able to still see everyone else's

                                    >
                                    > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                    >
                                    > PS. 19" mobile? Wow! I drive a big car (1985 Pontiac Parissienne) but
                                    > I wouldn't have room for 19"! Now my wife's (KJ4OVQ-9) Safari
                                    > might....Hmmmmmm.

                                    '06 Dodge Durango, my laptop fits nicely in the passanger seat, AND I found a USB to serial converter that seems to be working with Windows 7 to let me use the D700 when I need it for special events, or when the YL's (KC2ULK) lap needs to be warmed up ;)


                                    Adam
                                    KC2ANT (appretiative user of APRSIS32)
                                  • James Ewen
                                    ... Actually Adam, it sounds like you re missing the issue. If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from the last reported location,
                                    Message 18 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon <kc2ant@...> wrote:

                                      >> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                      >> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                      >
                                      > Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                      > the station "should" be...

                                      Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.

                                      If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                      the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                      will move to where the station "could" be.

                                      The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                      speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                      information from the last reported location.

                                      Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                      a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                      reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.

                                      The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                      the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                      were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                      an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                      of the originally reported position.

                                      Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                      location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                      location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                      location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                      course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                      reported position.

                                      When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                      happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                      constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                      or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                      along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                      that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                      the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.

                                      James
                                      VE6SRV
                                    • apenadragon
                                      That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map?? I guess that s the question, if you have your Red
                                      Message 19 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                        That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??

                                        I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)

                                        if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.

                                        Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)

                                        So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.

                                        If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

                                        It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.

                                        Adam
                                        KC2ANT



                                        --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon <kc2ant@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                        > >> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                        > >
                                        > > Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                        > > the station "should" be...
                                        >
                                        > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                                        >
                                        > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                        > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                        > will move to where the station "could" be.
                                        >
                                        > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                        > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                        > information from the last reported location.
                                        >
                                        > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                        > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                        > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                                        >
                                        > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                        > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                        > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                        > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                        > of the originally reported position.
                                        >
                                        > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                        > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                        > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                        > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                        > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                        > reported position.
                                        >
                                        > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                        > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                        > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                        > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                        > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                        > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                        > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                                        >
                                        > James
                                        > VE6SRV
                                        >
                                      • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                        Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you that can (safely)
                                        Message 20 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the
                                          solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you
                                          that can (safely) see your screen while mobile can test (and hopefully
                                          verify) my correction. I base the Dead Reckoning of ME on whether or
                                          not you have Configure / Beacon / CourseSpeed checked. If so, ME will
                                          dead reckon based on the (hopefully) same information a recipient of
                                          your last beaconed packet would be using. If you don't beacon
                                          CourseSpeed, then I don't DR ME since you KNOW where you are and where
                                          you're heading and you haven't told anyone else anyway.

                                          As for the difference/similarity of ME's DR vs the Red Dot.... If you
                                          measure the deviation between ME's actual position and the corresponding
                                          DR symbol, scale that according to the Configure / Genius / Forecast
                                          Error setting, you'll have a bearing (from actual to DR) and a
                                          percentage of error (distance / Forecast Error * 100%). Plot that
                                          value on the circle based on the compass points where touching the
                                          circle = 100% and you have the red dot, a Visualization of the range and
                                          direction of the error between a time-based extrapolation of your last
                                          beaconed position, speed, and course vs your actual current position, in
                                          other words, the red dot displays the magnitude and direction of the
                                          error between where an outside observer thinks you are based on the time
                                          since and values within your last beacon and where you know yourself to
                                          actually be.

                                          If the DR is on top of you (constant, straight line motion), the red dot
                                          will be on top of you and invisible. You won't see the DR symbol
                                          either, most likely.

                                          If you speed up (still in a straight line), the DR symbol will start
                                          falling behind, and the red dot will start drifting towards the circle,
                                          lagging directly behind your current direction of motion, but the DR and
                                          red dot will be at different rates because the red dot is a percentage
                                          of the allowed Forecast Error (when it touches the circle), and the DR
                                          will be where that outside observer would think you are. So, the DR
                                          moves according to map scale and the red dot moves according to the
                                          magnitude of the allowed Forecast Error.

                                          If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                                          Florida for long distances), the DR symbol will start pulling out in
                                          front of your direction of motion, and so will the red dot, again at
                                          different rates. If you take the distance between your actual position
                                          and the DR symbol, divide it by the configured Forecast Error, that's
                                          relatively how far the red dot will be between the center and edge of
                                          the circle, still in your direction of motion.

                                          I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out where the DR
                                          and red dots will go if you vary just the direction and maintain speed
                                          (should drift away from you at 90 degrees) or if you vary both speed and
                                          direction.

                                          For extra credit, you can play the "red dot game" (yes, this is
                                          absolutely worse than just glancing at the APRSISCE/32 screen while
                                          driving). Purposely vary your speed and/or direction to control where
                                          the red dot is on the circle. Hint: it's a lot easier if you have a
                                          very long stretch of very straight road and works fairly well at giving
                                          you something to do to stay alert, even if not truly looking where
                                          you're going). Hint #2: it's highly discouraged to attempt to control
                                          the red dot in any orientation other than directly ahead or behind your
                                          current heading unless you're driving on a salt flat or something.
                                          Think about it....

                                          Now, to quit typing, do a few release notes entries, and get this
                                          development release out there for testing!

                                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                          On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                          > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                          >>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                          >> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                          >> the station "should" be...
                                          > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                                          >
                                          > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                          > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                          > will move to where the station "could" be.
                                          >
                                          > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                          > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                          > information from the last reported location.
                                          >
                                          > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                          > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                          > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                                          >
                                          > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                          > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                          > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                          > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                          > of the originally reported position.
                                          >
                                          > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                          > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                          > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                          > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                          > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                          > reported position.
                                          >
                                          > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                          > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                          > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                          > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                          > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                          > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                          > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                                          >
                                          > James
                                          > VE6SRV
                                        • apenadragon
                                          ok, that invovled more math than my sleep deprived mind can handle at the moment, will try it again tomorrow when I ve had some sleep. regardless, I ve got my
                                          Message 21 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                            ok, that invovled more math than my sleep deprived mind can handle at the moment, will try it again tomorrow when I've had some sleep.

                                            regardless, I've got my red dot turned off as it doesn't give me anything useful for my purposes.

                                            If I can get the new Dev version before I leave at 3pm I'll have the YL see what it does as we drive home.

                                            Adam
                                            KC2ANT

                                            and James, thanks for your patience in trying to educate me. I'm playing catch up on some of this stuff.

                                            --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Very well explained James. I have isolated the problem, implemented the
                                            > solution, and am about to release a new Dev version for those of you
                                            > that can (safely) see your screen while mobile can test (and hopefully
                                            > verify) my correction. I base the Dead Reckoning of ME on whether or
                                            > not you have Configure / Beacon / CourseSpeed checked. If so, ME will
                                            > dead reckon based on the (hopefully) same information a recipient of
                                            > your last beaconed packet would be using. If you don't beacon
                                            > CourseSpeed, then I don't DR ME since you KNOW where you are and where
                                            > you're heading and you haven't told anyone else anyway.
                                            >
                                            > As for the difference/similarity of ME's DR vs the Red Dot.... If you
                                            > measure the deviation between ME's actual position and the corresponding
                                            > DR symbol, scale that according to the Configure / Genius / Forecast
                                            > Error setting, you'll have a bearing (from actual to DR) and a
                                            > percentage of error (distance / Forecast Error * 100%). Plot that
                                            > value on the circle based on the compass points where touching the
                                            > circle = 100% and you have the red dot, a Visualization of the range and
                                            > direction of the error between a time-based extrapolation of your last
                                            > beaconed position, speed, and course vs your actual current position, in
                                            > other words, the red dot displays the magnitude and direction of the
                                            > error between where an outside observer thinks you are based on the time
                                            > since and values within your last beacon and where you know yourself to
                                            > actually be.
                                            >
                                            > If the DR is on top of you (constant, straight line motion), the red dot
                                            > will be on top of you and invisible. You won't see the DR symbol
                                            > either, most likely.
                                            >
                                            > If you speed up (still in a straight line), the DR symbol will start
                                            > falling behind, and the red dot will start drifting towards the circle,
                                            > lagging directly behind your current direction of motion, but the DR and
                                            > red dot will be at different rates because the red dot is a percentage
                                            > of the allowed Forecast Error (when it touches the circle), and the DR
                                            > will be where that outside observer would think you are. So, the DR
                                            > moves according to map scale and the red dot moves according to the
                                            > magnitude of the allowed Forecast Error.
                                            >
                                            > If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                                            > Florida for long distances), the DR symbol will start pulling out in
                                            > front of your direction of motion, and so will the red dot, again at
                                            > different rates. If you take the distance between your actual position
                                            > and the DR symbol, divide it by the configured Forecast Error, that's
                                            > relatively how far the red dot will be between the center and edge of
                                            > the circle, still in your direction of motion.
                                            >
                                            > I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out where the DR
                                            > and red dots will go if you vary just the direction and maintain speed
                                            > (should drift away from you at 90 degrees) or if you vary both speed and
                                            > direction.
                                            >
                                            > For extra credit, you can play the "red dot game" (yes, this is
                                            > absolutely worse than just glancing at the APRSISCE/32 screen while
                                            > driving). Purposely vary your speed and/or direction to control where
                                            > the red dot is on the circle. Hint: it's a lot easier if you have a
                                            > very long stretch of very straight road and works fairly well at giving
                                            > you something to do to stay alert, even if not truly looking where
                                            > you're going). Hint #2: it's highly discouraged to attempt to control
                                            > the red dot in any orientation other than directly ahead or behind your
                                            > current heading unless you're driving on a salt flat or something.
                                            > Think about it....
                                            >
                                            > Now, to quit typing, do a few release notes entries, and get this
                                            > development release out there for testing!
                                            >
                                            > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                            >
                                            > On 4/1/2011 1:52 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                            > > On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                            > >>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                            > >> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                            > >> the station "should" be...
                                            > > Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                                            > >
                                            > > If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                            > > the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                            > > will move to where the station "could" be.
                                            > >
                                            > > The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                            > > speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                            > > information from the last reported location.
                                            > >
                                            > > Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                            > > a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                            > > reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                                            > >
                                            > > The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                            > > the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                            > > were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                            > > an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                            > > of the originally reported position.
                                            > >
                                            > > Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                            > > location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                            > > location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                            > > location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                            > > course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                            > > reported position.
                                            > >
                                            > > When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                            > > happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                            > > constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                            > > or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                            > > along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                            > > that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                            > > the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                                            > >
                                            > > James
                                            > > VE6SRV
                                            >
                                          • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                            ... As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For non-interested parties, that s why you can turn it off. ... Nope, the scales are
                                            Message 22 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                              On 4/1/2011 2:17 PM, apenadragon wrote:
                                              > That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??

                                              As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For
                                              non-interested parties, that's why you can turn it off.

                                              > I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)

                                              Nope, the scales are different. DR is in map scale miles. Red Dot is
                                              in % of Genius / Forecast Error where the circle is 100%.

                                              > if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.

                                              It shows the originating station where an outside observer would think
                                              you are, relative to your desired maximum error in the red dot, and
                                              actual forecasted position in the DR symbol.

                                              > Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)

                                              You are correct. The overriding current factor is what is displayed as
                                              a percentage towards the beacon ("Transmit Pressure") in the APRS-IS OK
                                              pane on the display as well as the bottom-most bar at the bottom of that
                                              pane. Hit Transmit and you'll see that bar drop back to zero (left) and
                                              start growing to the right and morphing from green to red based on the
                                              displayed Transmit Pressure.

                                              > So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.

                                              Different scales as already mentioned, so they may be in the same
                                              relative location as ME (I'm still not sure about that), but probably
                                              different distances away.

                                              > If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.

                                              It shows you what other's would believe based on what you've told them.

                                              > It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.

                                              To turn off DR for ME, you'll have to turn off Configure / Beacon /
                                              CourseSpeed as I've coupled them together in the upcoming release.
                                              Prior to that, if you have Screen / Dead Reckoning turned on, it'll DR
                                              me. With the upcoming release, if you are beaconing CourseSpeed, then
                                              you'll be seeing what you're leading others to believe. I think it will
                                              be informative.

                                              Of course, turning off Screen / Dead Reckoning turns it off for both ME
                                              and others.

                                              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                              > Adam
                                              > KC2ANT
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen<ve6srv@...> wrote:
                                              >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@...> wrote:
                                              >>
                                              >>>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                              >>>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                              >>> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                              >>> the station "should" be...
                                              >> Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                                              >>
                                              >> If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                              >> the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                              >> will move to where the station "could" be.
                                              >>
                                              >> The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                              >> speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                              >> information from the last reported location.
                                              >>
                                              >> Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                              >> a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                              >> reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                                              >>
                                              >> The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                              >> the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                              >> were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                              >> an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                              >> of the originally reported position.
                                              >>
                                              >> Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                              >> location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                              >> location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                              >> location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                              >> course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                              >> reported position.
                                              >>
                                              >> When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                              >> happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                              >> constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                              >> or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                              >> along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                              >> that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                              >> the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                                              >>
                                              >> James
                                              >> VE6SRV
                                              >>
                                            • apenadragon
                                              I think I m starting to get it now, I m pretty sure the math its self would drive me batty at the moment, but I think I m getting the concept... I ll be
                                              Message 23 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                                I think I'm starting to get it now, I'm pretty sure the math its self would drive me batty at the moment, but I think I'm getting the concept... I'll be interested to watch it on the way home (thinking about making the YL drive home) and see what the differeces are between the DR icon, and the Red Dot.

                                                I like the DR feature, and I'm going to transmit course and speed normally, so I'll just deal with seeing the DR on my screen and say thanks for putting up with us unedumacated youngsters.

                                                Adam
                                                KC2ANT

                                                --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > On 4/1/2011 2:17 PM, apenadragon wrote:
                                                > > That may be, but the APRSIS32 does that on its own, does it really need to display that on your local map??
                                                >
                                                > As a diagnostic aid, yes. As a game to play on long drives, maybe. For
                                                > non-interested parties, that's why you can turn it off.
                                                >
                                                > > I guess that's the question, if you have your Red dot turned on, right now doesn't that show up in the same place as the DR for "Me" in its current configuration? (did go and read the Red Dot explanation on the wiki)
                                                >
                                                > Nope, the scales are different. DR is in map scale miles. Red Dot is
                                                > in % of Genius / Forecast Error where the circle is 100%.
                                                >
                                                > > if Lynn changes the DR of ME to the same as the DR for everyone else, ie last reported packet, I'm not sure what use that is to the originating station on a local map.
                                                >
                                                > It shows the originating station where an outside observer would think
                                                > you are, relative to your desired maximum error in the red dot, and
                                                > actual forecasted position in the DR symbol.
                                                >
                                                > > Genius is also set to beacon after a set time, or a set distance, or after changing direction so many degrees, all of those user configured. (if I'm understanding it correctly, which I may not be)
                                                >
                                                > You are correct. The overriding current factor is what is displayed as
                                                > a percentage towards the beacon ("Transmit Pressure") in the APRS-IS OK
                                                > pane on the display as well as the bottom-most bar at the bottom of that
                                                > pane. Hit Transmit and you'll see that bar drop back to zero (left) and
                                                > start growing to the right and morphing from green to red based on the
                                                > displayed Transmit Pressure.
                                                >
                                                > > So, my understanding at this moment is that the DR for ME is showing in the same place that the Red Dot would be, only with the DR Line and beacon icon.
                                                >
                                                > Different scales as already mentioned, so they may be in the same
                                                > relative location as ME (I'm still not sure about that), but probably
                                                > different distances away.
                                                >
                                                > > If the DR for ME is set to use the same information as the other stations, last reported packet, I'm not sure what purpose that would serve.
                                                >
                                                > It shows you what other's would believe based on what you've told them.
                                                >
                                                > > It's an interesting phenomenon... I'd like to see a way to turn off Red Dot (available) and DR for ME Only, and still leave DR for all other stations, regardless of if DR gets changed from its' current configuration or not.
                                                >
                                                > To turn off DR for ME, you'll have to turn off Configure / Beacon /
                                                > CourseSpeed as I've coupled them together in the upcoming release.
                                                > Prior to that, if you have Screen / Dead Reckoning turned on, it'll DR
                                                > me. With the upcoming release, if you are beaconing CourseSpeed, then
                                                > you'll be seeing what you're leading others to believe. I think it will
                                                > be informative.
                                                >
                                                > Of course, turning off Screen / Dead Reckoning turns it off for both ME
                                                > and others.
                                                >
                                                > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                                >
                                                > > Adam
                                                > > KC2ANT
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen<ve6srv@> wrote:
                                                > >> On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, apenadragon<kc2ant@> wrote:
                                                > >>
                                                > >>>> So, I just need to fix ME's DR to use the last beaconed speed/heading
                                                > >>>> rather than the current GPS speed/heading and all will be well.
                                                > >>> Do you?? personally I don't see the issue... the DR is a projection of where
                                                > >>> the station "should" be...
                                                > >> Actually Adam, it sounds like you're missing the issue.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> If you take the last reported speed and heading and project that from
                                                > >> the last reported location, as time progresses, the dead reckoned icon
                                                > >> will move to where the station "could" be.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> The problem with what we are seeing is that Lynn is using the CURRENT
                                                > >> speed and heading, and projecting a possible location using that
                                                > >> information from the last reported location.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Lets suggest that a position was reported, with a speed of 60 mph, and
                                                > >> a heading of 90 degrees. After one minute, the dead
                                                > >> reckoned position should be 1 mile east of the reported location.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> The way it is implemented, if I stop driving east after 30 seconds,
                                                > >> the DR position would return back to the last reported location. If I
                                                > >> were to turn south and drive for 1 minute at 60 mph (without sending
                                                > >> an updated position report), there would be a DR object 1 mile south
                                                > >> of the originally reported position.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Now, if this instantaneous line were to originate from the current
                                                > >> location, it would still be wrong. The line leaving my current
                                                > >> location would not be a dead reckoned position, but rather a projected
                                                > >> location for a future position report based on the current speed and
                                                > >> course, projected into the future the amount of time since the last
                                                > >> reported position.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> When Lynn gets it straightened out, you'll see something interesting
                                                > >> happening. As Lynn said, if you continue in a straight line at a
                                                > >> constant speed, you won't see the projected icon. If the road turns,
                                                > >> or you change speed, then you'll see the projected (DR) icon continue
                                                > >> along the last reported vector. Once the Genius settings determine
                                                > >> that you've strayed too far, a new position report will be sent, and
                                                > >> the DR icon will start moving away from the reported position again.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> James
                                                > >> VE6SRV
                                                > >>
                                                >
                                              • Fred Hillhouse
                                                % of Genius I hate it when the % of Genius is low. I either go home or grab more coffee!
                                                Message 24 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                                  "% of Genius"

                                                  I hate it when the % of Genius is low. I either go home or grab more coffee!
                                                • Gary Sanders
                                                  ... And, since this IS Florida we re talking about, the vehicle slowing down in a straight line for a long distance would probably be a Mercury Marquis, in the
                                                  Message 25 of 25 , Apr 1, 2011
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                                                    On 4/1/2011 2:21 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > If you slow down (still in a straight line, we can do that here in
                                                    > Florida for long distances),

                                                    And, since this IS Florida we're talking about, the vehicle slowing down
                                                    in a straight line for a long distance would probably be a Mercury
                                                    Marquis, in the center lane, with the turn signal flashing, and totally
                                                    oblivious.

                                                    (Sent from a fellow Florida resident, who may indeed be in the center
                                                    lane himself... :) ).

                                                    Gary Sanders WB0BZR
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