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Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit

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  • Rob Giuliano
    I agree that 5000 Icons would be difficult to deal with, but on the other hand if other settings are on useful values they propably aren t going to show
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      I agree that 5000 Icons would be difficult to deal with, but on the other hand if other settings are on "useful values" they propably aren't going to show up. 
       
      If you set a range filter to a reasonable value, the chances of having 5000 stations within that range would be fairly slim.
       
      If you have multiple "areas", then by definition they are probably separated enough that they can be viewed.
      Just MY opinion on the subject.  I personally don't think I will need to increase the number, but I do APPRECIATE having that option.  I spent some time at my mothers house and was monitoring 2 areas about 450 miles apart.  My home area (greater Detroit) des get "filled" to the 50 limit, but near my mother (north west corner of Michigan's Upper Pennisula) only has a few stations in the 80 km radius I had set (maybe 15).
       
      So, is it prioritized to the center of the current map?  Or are there any priorities set on which get callsigns?

      Robert Giuliano
      KB8RCO

      ---------------------------------------------

      The difference between CW and other digital
      modes comes down to 2 characters:
      ASCII Character 32 (hex 20) a defined space
      ASCII Character 12 (hex 0C) a carriage return (line designation)

      --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

      From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
      Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit
      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 6:29 AM

       
      Some things are almost easier to implement than to document. Ok, for a
      lot of programmers, most things are easier to implement than to document....

      If you upgrade to the latest development version (2010/10/08 06:18), you
      can edit <View.VisibleLabelsMax> in the XML configuration file to set
      your own limit. The defaults are as originally coded, and Min/Max
      limits are WinMo: Default 10, Min 5, Max 500. Win32: Default 50, Min
      25, Max 5000.

      I have not done any performance nor usability testing with anything but
      the default, so anyone willing to push the limits can report back here
      with results. Please include the count you used as well as what
      performance class machine and video card / display resolution you are
      running. As well as an opinion of usability. I really don't think
      5,000 visible labels will be very useful, no matter how clustered they
      may be.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

      Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
      > Actually, there are two limits. APRSISCE for Windows Mobile targets
      > small, lower performance platforms and eliminates labels when just 10
      > stations are visible. APRSIS32 on desktop machines has the limit
      > currently hard-coded at 50 stations visible. I'll look at making this a
      > configuration parameter with these defaults and even allow 0 and let the
      > user beware. I can't imagine how long it would take to draw 20,000
      > station labels all on top of each other, making each a clickable
      > rectangle, when running APRSIS32 from a full feed and zoomed out to see
      > the entire world. On second thought, I probably won't support
      > unlimited, but have an upper limit of a thousand or so.
      >
      > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
      >
      > g4ilo wrote:
      >
      >> Any chance of increasing the number of calls that will show up, Lynn? I know the reason for it is to avoid cluttering the screen. But on a big screen you could see a lot more calls than on a smartphone, and the real cause of cluttering is that the stations are not evenly dispersed (e.g. an impenetrable density of stations around the south of France / Pyrennees because of all the stuff that gets gated to HF from VHF around there.)
      >>
      >> Julian, G4ILO
      >>
      >> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>> To see callsigns, you need to check Screen / Labels / Callsign. And
      >>> they still won't show up if you have too many stations visible on your
      >>> map. Zoom in and they should be there if that option is checked.
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      Each MultiTrack window has it s own visible count and decides whether or not to suppress labels. There are people (like me) that keep a full feed monitor
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Each MultiTrack window has it's own visible count and decides whether or
        not to suppress labels. There are people (like me) that keep a full
        feed monitor running just to be able to zoom anywhere in the world and
        immediately see the current situation. The zoom lets me see the details
        or get an overview of the activity. So "useful values" for range is a
        meaningless statement for people like yourself with multiple concurrent
        areas of interest.

        The main reason for the limit was performance. It takes a finite amount
        of time to draw all of those labels on every screen refresh, and I
        really don't want to bog down a machine drawing labels that will end up
        not being visible anyway. There's still a "reasonability" limit for
        viewing, regardless of how many stations may be in the total data space.

        There are no choices as to which labels are drawn. It's all or nothing
        based on how many stations are visible within a single window view.

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

        Rob Giuliano wrote:
        >
        >
        > I agree that 5000 Icons would be difficult to deal with, but on the
        > other hand if other settings are on "useful values" they propably
        > aren't going to show up.
        >
        > If you set a range filter to a reasonable value, the chances of having
        > 5000 stations within that range would be fairly slim.
        >
        > If you have multiple "areas", then by definition they are probably
        > separated enough that they can be viewed.
        > Just MY opinion on the subject. I personally don't think I will need
        > to increase the number, but I do APPRECIATE having that option. I
        > spent some time at my mothers house and was monitoring 2 areas about
        > 450 miles apart. My home area (greater Detroit) des get "filled" to
        > the 50 limit, but near my mother (north west corner of Michigan's
        > Upper Pennisula) only has a few stations in the 80 km radius I had set
        > (maybe 15).
        >
        > So, is it prioritized to the center of the current map? Or are there
        > any priorities set on which get callsigns?
        >
        > Robert Giuliano
        > KB8RCO
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------
        >
        > The difference between CW and other digital
        > modes comes down to 2 characters:
        > ASCII Character 32 (hex 20) a defined space
        > ASCII Character 12 (hex 0C) a carriage return (line designation)
        >
        > --- On *Fri, 10/8/10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) /<kj4erj@...>/* wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
        > Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit
        > To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 6:29 AM
        >
        >
        > Some things are almost easier to implement than to document. Ok,
        > for a
        > lot of programmers, most things are easier to implement than to
        > document....
        >
        > If you upgrade to the latest development version (2010/10/08
        > 06:18), you
        > can edit <View.VisibleLabelsMax> in the XML configuration file to set
        > your own limit. The defaults are as originally coded, and Min/Max
        > limits are WinMo: Default 10, Min 5, Max 500. Win32: Default 50, Min
        > 25, Max 5000.
        >
        > I have not done any performance nor usability testing with
        > anything but
        > the default, so anyone willing to push the limits can report back
        > here
        > with results. Please include the count you used as well as what
        > performance class machine and video card / display resolution you are
        > running. As well as an opinion of usability. I really don't think
        > 5,000 visible labels will be very useful, no matter how clustered
        > they
        > may be.
        >
        > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
        >
        > Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
        > > Actually, there are two limits. APRSISCE for Windows Mobile targets
        > > small, lower performance platforms and eliminates labels when
        > just 10
        > > stations are visible. APRSIS32 on desktop machines has the limit
        > > currently hard-coded at 50 stations visible. I'll look at making
        > this a
        > > configuration parameter with these defaults and even allow 0 and
        > let the
        > > user beware. I can't imagine how long it would take to draw 20,000
        > > station labels all on top of each other, making each a clickable
        > > rectangle, when running APRSIS32 from a full feed and zoomed out
        > to see
        > > the entire world. On second thought, I probably won't support
        > > unlimited, but have an upper limit of a thousand or so.
        > >
        > > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
        > >
        > > g4ilo wrote:
        > >
        > >> Any chance of increasing the number of calls that will show up,
        > Lynn? I know the reason for it is to avoid cluttering the screen.
        > But on a big screen you could see a lot more calls than on a
        > smartphone, and the real cause of cluttering is that the stations
        > are not evenly dispersed (e.g. an impenetrable density of stations
        > around the south of France / Pyrennees because of all the stuff
        > that gets gated to HF from VHF around there.)
        > >>
        > >> Julian, G4ILO
        > >>
        > >> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
        > <http://us.mc354.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>> To see callsigns, you need to check Screen / Labels /
        > Callsign. And
        > >>> they still won't show up if you have too many stations visible
        > on your
        > >>> map. Zoom in and they should be there if that option is checked.
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> ------------------------------------
        > >>
        > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Rob Giuliano
        Thanks for the explanation! Robert Giuliano KB8RCO ... The difference between CW and other digital modes comes down to 2 characters: ASCII Character 32 (hex
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks for the explanation!

          Robert Giuliano
          KB8RCO

          ---------------------------------------------

          The difference between CW and other digital
          modes comes down to 2 characters:
          ASCII Character 32 (hex 20) a defined space
          ASCII Character 12 (hex 0C) a carriage return (line designation)

          --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

          From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit
          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 1:58 PM

           
          Each MultiTrack window has it's own visible count and decides whether or
          not to suppress labels. There are people (like me) that keep a full
          feed monitor running just to be able to zoom anywhere in the world and
          immediately see the current situation. The zoom lets me see the details
          or get an overview of the activity. So "useful values" for range is a
          meaningless statement for people like yourself with multiple concurrent
          areas of interest.

          The main reason for the limit was performance. It takes a finite amount
          of time to draw all of those labels on every screen refresh, and I
          really don't want to bog down a machine drawing labels that will end up
          not being visible anyway. There's still a "reasonability" limit for
          viewing, regardless of how many stations may be in the total data space.

          There are no choices as to which labels are drawn. It's all or nothing
          based on how many stations are visible within a single window view.

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

          Rob Giuliano wrote:
          >
          >
          > I agree that 5000 Icons would be difficult to deal with, but on the
          > other hand if other settings are on "useful values" they propably
          > aren't going to show up.
          >
          > If you set a range filter to a reasonable value, the chances of having
          > 5000 stations within that range would be fairly slim.
          >
          > If you have multiple "areas", then by definition they are probably
          > separated enough that they can be viewed.
          > Just MY opinion on the subject. I personally don't think I will need
          > to increase the number, but I do APPRECIATE having that option. I
          > spent some time at my mothers house and was monitoring 2 areas about
          > 450 miles apart. My home area (greater Detroit) des get "filled" to
          > the 50 limit, but near my mother (north west corner of Michigan's
          > Upper Pennisula) only has a few stations in the 80 km radius I had set
          > (maybe 15).
          >
          > So, is it prioritized to the center of the current map? Or are there
          > any priorities set on which get callsigns?
          >
          > Robert Giuliano
          > KB8RCO
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------
          >
          > The difference between CW and other digital
          > modes comes down to 2 characters:
          > ASCII Character 32 (hex 20) a defined space
          > ASCII Character 12 (hex 0C) a carriage return (line designation)
          >
          > --- On *Fri, 10/8/10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) /<kj4erj@...>/* wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
          > Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit
          > To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 6:29 AM
          >
          >
          > Some things are almost easier to implement than to document. Ok,
          > for a
          > lot of programmers, most things are easier to implement than to
          > document....
          >
          > If you upgrade to the latest development version (2010/10/08
          > 06:18), you
          > can edit <View.VisibleLabelsMax> in the XML configuration file to set
          > your own limit. The defaults are as originally coded, and Min/Max
          > limits are WinMo: Default 10, Min 5, Max 500. Win32: Default 50, Min
          > 25, Max 5000.
          >
          > I have not done any performance nor usability testing with
          > anything but
          > the default, so anyone willing to push the limits can report back
          > here
          > with results. Please include the count you used as well as what
          > performance class machine and video card / display resolution you are
          > running. As well as an opinion of usability. I really don't think
          > 5,000 visible labels will be very useful, no matter how clustered
          > they
          > may be.
          >
          > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          >
          > Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
          > > Actually, there are two limits. APRSISCE for Windows Mobile targets
          > > small, lower performance platforms and eliminates labels when
          > just 10
          > > stations are visible. APRSIS32 on desktop machines has the limit
          > > currently hard-coded at 50 stations visible. I'll look at making
          > this a
          > > configuration parameter with these defaults and even allow 0 and
          > let the
          > > user beware. I can't imagine how long it would take to draw 20,000
          > > station labels all on top of each other, making each a clickable
          > > rectangle, when running APRSIS32 from a full feed and zoomed out
          > to see
          > > the entire world. On second thought, I probably won't support
          > > unlimited, but have an upper limit of a thousand or so.
          > >
          > > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          > >
          > > g4ilo wrote:
          > >
          > >> Any chance of increasing the number of calls that will show up,
          > Lynn? I know the reason for it is to avoid cluttering the screen.
          > But on a big screen you could see a lot more calls than on a
          > smartphone, and the real cause of cluttering is that the stations
          > are not evenly dispersed (e.g. an impenetrable density of stations
          > around the south of France / Pyrennees because of all the stuff
          > that gets gated to HF from VHF around there.)
          > >>
          > >> Julian, G4ILO
          > >>
          > >> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          > <http://us.mc354.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>> To see callsigns, you need to check Screen / Labels /
          > Callsign. And
          > >>> they still won't show up if you have too many stations visible
          > on your
          > >>> map. Zoom in and they should be there if that option is checked.
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> ------------------------------------
          > >>
          > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


        • Steve D
          I tried as a test with 2000 labels showing earlier and on my system it was ok performance wise (4 core AMD cpu 2.6GHz) I was running 2 instances and sat
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 8, 2010
          • 0 Attachment

            I tried as a test with 2000 labels showing earlier and on my system it was ok performance wise (4 core AMD cpu 2.6GHz) I was running 2 instances and sat tracking at the same time.

            However the display was a mess of black if I zoomed out.

            I am now running at 200 and that’s ok for me

             

            Steve

            G6UIM

             


            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
            Sent: 08 October 2010 18:59
            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit

             

             

            Each MultiTrack window has it's own visible count and decides whether or
            not to suppress labels. There are people (like me) that keep a full
            feed monitor running just to be able to zoom anywhere in the world and
            immediately see the current situation. The zoom lets me see the details
            or get an overview of the activity. So "useful values" for range is a
            meaningless statement for people like yourself with multiple concurrent
            areas of interest.

            The main reason for the limit was performance. It takes a finite amount
            of time to draw all of those labels on every screen refresh, and I
            really don't want to bog down a machine drawing labels that will end up
            not being visible anyway. There's still a "reasonability" limit for
            viewing, regardless of how many stations may be in the total data space.

            There are no choices as to which labels are drawn. It's all or nothing
            based on how many stations are visible within a single window view.

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

            Rob Giuliano wrote:

            >
            >
            > I agree that 5000 Icons would be difficult to deal with, but on the
            > other hand if other settings are on "useful values" they
            propably
            > aren't going to show up.
            >
            > If you set a range filter to a reasonable value, the chances of having
            > 5000 stations within that range would be fairly slim.
            >
            > If you have multiple "areas", then by definition they are
            probably
            > separated enough that they can be viewed.
            > Just MY opinion on the subject. I personally don't think I will need
            > to increase the number, but I do APPRECIATE having that option. I
            > spent some time at my mothers house and was monitoring 2 areas about
            > 450 miles apart. My home area (greater Detroit )
            des get "filled" to
            > the 50 limit, but near my mother ( north west
            corner of Michigan 's
            > Upper Pennisula ) only has a few stations
            in the 80 km radius I had set
            > (maybe 15).
            >
            > So, is it prioritized to the center of the current map? Or are there
            > any priorities set on which get callsigns?
            >
            > Robert Giuliano
            > KB8RCO
            >
            > ---------------------------------------------
            >
            > The difference between CW and other digital
            > modes comes down to 2 characters:
            > ASCII Character 32 (hex 20) a defined space
            > ASCII Character 12 (hex 0C) a carriage return (line designation)
            >
            > --- On *Fri, 10/8/10, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) /<
            href="mailto:kj4erj%40arrl.net">kj4erj@...>/* wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...>
            > Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Clutter vs Performance - Label Limit
            > To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 6:29 AM
            >
            >
            > Some things are almost easier to implement than to document. Ok,
            > for a
            > lot of programmers, most things are easier to implement than to
            > document....
            >
            > If you upgrade to the latest development version (2010/10/08
            > 06:18), you
            > can edit <View.VisibleLabelsMax> in the XML configuration file to
            set
            > your own limit. The defaults are as originally coded, and Min/Max
            > limits are WinMo: Default 10, Min 5, Max 500. Win32: Default 50, Min
            > 25, Max 5000.
            >
            > I have not done any performance nor usability testing with
            > anything but
            > the default, so anyone willing to push the limits can report back
            > here
            > with results. Please include the count you used as well as what
            > performance class machine and video card / display resolution you are
            > running. As well as an opinion of usability. I really don't think
            > 5,000 visible labels will be very useful, no matter how clustered
            > they
            > may be.
            >
            > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for
            Windows Mobile and Win32
            >
            > Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
            > > Actually, there are two limits. APRSISCE for Windows Mobile targets
            > > small, lower performance platforms and eliminates labels when
            > just 10
            > > stations are visible. APRSIS32 on desktop machines has the limit
            > > currently hard-coded at 50 stations visible. I'll look at making
            > this a
            > > configuration parameter with these defaults and even allow 0 and
            > let the
            > > user beware. I can't imagine how long it would take to draw 20,000
            > > station labels all on top of each other, making each a clickable
            > > rectangle, when running APRSIS32 from a full feed and zoomed out
            > to see
            > > the entire world. On second thought, I probably won't support
            > > unlimited, but have an upper limit of a thousand or so.
            > >
            > > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows
            w:st="on">Mobile and Win32
            > >
            > > g4ilo wrote:
            > >
            > >> Any chance of increasing the number of calls that will show up,
            > Lynn ? I
            know the reason for it is to avoid cluttering the screen.
            > But on a big screen you could see a lot more calls than on a
            > smartphone, and the real cause of cluttering is that the stations
            > are not evenly dispersed (e.g. an impenetrable density of stations
            > around the south of France / Pyrennees because of all the stuff
            > that gets gated to HF from VHF around there.)
            > >>
            > >> Julian, G4ILO
            > >>
            > >> --- In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            > <
            href="http://us.mc354.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com">http://us.mc354.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aprsisce%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)" <kj4erj@...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>> To see callsigns, you need to check Screen / Labels /
            > Callsign. And
            > >>> they still won't show up if you have too many stations
            visible
            > on your
            > >>> map. Zoom in and they should be there if that option is
            checked.
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ------------------------------------
            > >>
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

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