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APRSISCE and UK mapping

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  • bobsayers2000
    Thanks to all of you who responded to my recent question about UK mapping, and also to those who emailed me directly. The general concensus seems to be that
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 8, 2014
      Thanks to all of you who responded to my recent question about UK mapping, and also to those who emailed me directly.

      The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for amateur-provided emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail than OSM can provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the status of roads. Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal (although of course OS maps are not a legal authority on Rights of Way, and the legal status of minor roads and tracks, as many a 4x4 driver has found to their cost!).

      What all responders WERE agreed on, however, was the huge additional value that APRSISCE would have for this type of application if it also supported locations in OS National Grid Reference format, since this is the format that is common to all UK emergency responders  -  in the UK even SAR helicopters use OSNGR for inland incidents.

      I understand that Bob added an OSNGR facility to the original DOS APRS.

      Best regards,


      Bob, G8IYK

      Sent from Samsung Mobile
    • James Ewen
      ... Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones crossing a brook. ... OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 8, 2014
        On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, bobsayers2000 <bobsayers2000@...> wrote:

        > The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for amateur-provided
        > emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail than OSM can
        > provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the status of roads.

        Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones
        crossing a brook.

        > Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal

        OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to about
        1:15000. You can zoom in to level 19 1:1000. That would tell me that
        OSM can provide 25 times more detail than the 1:25000 OS maps that you
        say are ideal.

        I just had a look at my neighbourhood at 1:15000 in APRSISCE/32, and
        that gives me a map with a range circle of 972m.

        Now if your complaint is that there are roads, trails, footpaths,
        kissing gates, stiles, hedgerows, stone fences, or any other items
        missing from the maps, you're barking up the wrong tree. OSM is an
        open source, crowd sourced mapping project. EVERYONE can edit the map,
        adding the "missing detail". In fact, if EVERYONE added in a little
        bit of detail around their house, the map detail level would increase
        substantially.

        So, while you are sitting around the conservatory, sipping your
        Darjeerling, add a couple local footpaths, kissing gates, and stiles
        to the map.

        > What all responders WERE agreed on, however, was the huge additional value
        > that APRSISCE would have for this type of application if it also supported
        > locations in OS National Grid Reference format, since this is the format that
        > is common to all UK emergency responders - in the UK even SAR helicopters
        > use OSNGR for inland incidents.

        It might be useful to have lat/long, UTM, and OSNGR grid overlay
        capabilities. If you press the left arrow 22 times, you'll get a very
        wide (10 degree) lat/long grid in Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

        There's a bit of math involved in converting from lat/long to OSNGR...

        http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-gridref.html

        Lynn might be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
        handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.

        --
        James
        VE6SRV
      • Steve Daniels
        I think what is really being asked for is the UK grid map overlay and entry of the grid co ordinates.. The Coordinates are not hard from a math point of
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 8, 2014

          I think what is really being asked for is the UK grid map overlay and  entry of  the grid co ordinates..

          The Coordinates are not hard from a math point of view, grid overlay maybe.

          I don’t see a big advantage of  OS maps other than countours

           

          Giving a talk on APRS in a couple of months, some members will be local RAYNET.

           

          Steve Daniels

          Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

          Torbay Freecycle  Owner

          http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

          APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

           


          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James Ewen
          Sent: 09 February 2014 01:02
          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] APRSISCE and UK mapping

           

           

          On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, bobsayers2000 < bobsayers2000 @...> wrote:

          > The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for
          amateur-provided
          > emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail than OSM
          can
          > provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the status of
          roads.

          Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones
          crossing a brook.

          > Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal

          OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to about
          1:15000. You can zoom in to level 19 1:1000. That would tell me that
          OSM can provide 25 times more detail than the 1:25000 OS maps that you
          say are ideal.

          I just had a look at my neighbourhood at 1:15000 in APRSISCE/32, and
          that gives me a map with a range circle of 972m.

          Now if your complaint is that there are roads, trails, footpaths,
          kissing gates, stiles, hedgerows, stone fences, or any other items
          missing from the maps, you're barking up the wrong tree. OSM is an
          open source, crowd sourced mapping project. EVERYONE can edit the map,
          adding the "missing detail". In fact, if EVERYONE added in a little
          bit of detail around their house, the map detail level would increase
          substantially.

          So, while you are sitting around the conservatory, sipping your
          Darjeerling, add a couple local footpaths, kissing gates, and stiles
          to the map.

          > What all responders WERE agreed on, however, was the huge additional value
          > that APRSISCE would have for this type of application if it also supported
          > locations in OS National Grid Reference format, since this is the format that
          > is common to all UK
          emergency responders - in the UK even SAR helicopters
          > use OSNGR for inland incidents.

          It might be useful to have lat/long, UTM, and OSNGR grid overlay
          capabilities. If you press the left arrow 22 times, you'll get a very
          wide (10 degree) lat/long grid in Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

          There's a bit of math involved in converting from lat/long to OSNGR...

          http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-gridref.html

          Lynn might be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
          handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.

          --
          James
          VE6SRV

        • bobsayers2000
          All points taken, James. I d quite appreciate it personally if the conservatory could be added sooner rather than later, though! Bob Sent from Samsung Mobile
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 9, 2014
            All points taken, James. I'd quite appreciate it personally if the conservatory could be added sooner rather than later, though!

            Bob


            Sent from Samsung Mobile



            -------- Original message --------
            From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
            Date: 2014/02/09 01:02 (GMT+00:00)
            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [aprsisce] APRSISCE and UK mapping


             

            On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, bobsayers2000 <bobsayers2000@...> wrote:

            > The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for amateur-provided
            > emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail than OSM can
            > provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the status of roads.

            Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones
            crossing a brook.

            > Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal

            OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to about
            1:15000. You can zoom in to level 19 1:1000. That would tell me that
            OSM can provide 25 times more detail than the 1:25000 OS maps that you
            say are ideal.

            I just had a look at my neighbourhood at 1:15000 in APRSISCE/32, and
            that gives me a map with a range circle of 972m.

            Now if your complaint is that there are roads, trails, footpaths,
            kissing gates, stiles, hedgerows, stone fences, or any other items
            missing from the maps, you're barking up the wrong tree. OSM is an
            open source, crowd sourced mapping project. EVERYONE can edit the map,
            adding the "missing detail". In fact, if EVERYONE added in a little
            bit of detail around their house, the map detail level would increase
            substantially.

            So, while you are sitting around the conservatory, sipping your
            Darjeerling, add a couple local footpaths, kissing gates, and stiles
            to the map.

            > What all responders WERE agreed on, however, was the huge additional value
            > that APRSISCE would have for this type of application if it also supported
            > locations in OS National Grid Reference format, since this is the format that
            > is common to all UK emergency responders - in the UK even SAR helicopters
            > use OSNGR for inland incidents.

            It might be useful to have lat/long, UTM, and OSNGR grid overlay
            capabilities. If you press the left arrow 22 times, you'll get a very
            wide (10 degree) lat/long grid in Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

            There's a bit of math involved in converting from lat/long to OSNGR...

            http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-gridref.html

            Lynn might be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
            handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.

            --
            James
            VE6SRV

          • James Ewen
            ... So sorry, busy with renovations in my basement... The son s bedroom is nearing completion, and I should be down there now slapping a second coat of paint
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 9, 2014
              On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:23 AM, bobsayers2000 <bobsayers2000@...> wrote:

              > All points taken, James. I'd quite appreciate it personally if the conservatory
              > could be added sooner rather than later, though!

              So sorry, busy with renovations in my basement... The son's bedroom is
              nearing completion, and I should be down there now slapping a second
              coat of paint on the walls of the family room. After that, baseboards,
              and door trim, then onto installing the suspended ceiling.

              Now, if you popped on over and helped, I would be able to get mine
              done, and then pop on over to help you with the conservatory. BTW, I'd
              like the nice hot, dry weather my son got last summer when he spent a
              month on that side of the pond.

              Back to APRSISCE/32...

              You can create an overlay that would allow you to describe the OSNGR
              on an APRSISCE/32 map.

              Create a GPX file that defines your grid, and then load that into APRSISCE/32.

              This is easier if you have access to a list of the vertices of the
              squares. I had a heck of a time finding a website that showed me the
              grid. There are a lot of them that allow you to input the grid
              reference, and then they spit out lat/long. I needed to see the grid
              so I could find a lat/long.

              Found that here:

              http://www.bnhs.co.uk/focuson/grabagridref/html/index.htm

              On that page you can click on WGS84 and it will show you the lat/long
              in the format used by APRSISCE/32.

              Grab that data and draw a box in GPX format.

              <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
              <gpx>
              <author>James Ewen VE6SRV</author>
              <time>2014-02-09T18:20:38Z</time>
              <trk>
              <name>TG10</name>
              <trkseg>
              <trkpt lat="52.643105" lon="1.250362">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.553352" lon="1.243720">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.557299" lon="1.096453">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.647065" lon="1.102795">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.643105" lon="1.250362">
              </trkpt>
              </trkseg>
              </trk>
              </gpx>

              Save that file to your hard drive, and then import it into APRSISCE/32.

              CONFIGURE | OVERLAYS | ADD GPX FILE...

              Point at the GPX file, and adjust the import parameters as desired.

              You can define 10 km squares, 1 km squares, 100 m squares, or even 10
              m squares as desired.

              <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
              <gpx>
              <author>James Ewen VE6SRV</author>
              <time>2014-02-09T18:32:23Z</time>
              <trk>
              <name>TG1909</name>
              <trkseg>
              <trkpt lat="52.6435061" lon="1.23562153">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.6345324" lon="1.23495768">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.6341254" lon="1.24970715">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.643105" lon="1.250362">
              </trkpt>
              <trkpt lat="52.6435061" lon="1.23562153">
              </trkpt>
              </trkseg>
              </trk>
              </gpx>

              Obviously having these drawn by the program would be much easier for
              the end user, but if you NEED them NOW, you can HAVE them NOW with a
              bunch of work.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • Reg
              ... Stepping stones possibly, but to suggest that OSM maps provide superior maps than the UK government s Ordnance Survey is much like saying that OSM are
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 10, 2014
                On 9 February 2014 01:02, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                > On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, bobsayers2000 <bobsayers2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > > The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for amateur-provided
                > > emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail than OSM can
                > > provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the status of roads.
                >
                > Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones
                > crossing a brook.

                Stepping stones possibly, but to suggest that OSM maps provide
                superior maps than the UK government's Ordnance Survey is much like
                saying that OSM are better than the US government's National
                Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.

                > > Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal
                >
                > OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to about
                > 1:15000. You can zoom in to level 19 1:1000. That would tell me that
                > OSM can provide 25 times more detail than the 1:25000 OS maps that you
                > say are ideal.

                I have been interested in using OS maps for about 60 years and am on
                other lists that have digital mapping as important tools.

                The magnification has little to do with detail. Maps of one scale can
                be photographically enlarged to print a larger image, but the detail
                remains the same. So although OSM maps are provided at higher zoom
                levels the detail remains the same - you just get larger blank areas!

                In practice Google Earth at zoom 15 is close to OS 1:25,000 in
                displayed size (Meters/Pixel). Both provide useful details for the
                OPs requirements. Although I have used zooms 16-19, that level is
                generally not required in practice for RAYNET.

                Out in a field at night, I'd not want to only have an OSM map! OS at
                1:25,000 does the job - proven in practice.

                > OSM is an open source, crowd sourced mapping project.
                > EVERYONE can edit the map,

                And therein lies it's weakness!

                > Lynn might be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
                > handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.

                This should not be a problem IF Lynn decides he want's it, as it was
                implemented over a decade ago on Psion computers. These running with
                low performance processors with 2 x AA batteries!

                Reg
              • Steve Daniels
                Well Lynn codes APRSIS for free, OSM is world wide and free. OSGB maps are not free. And very country specific. Yes there is better quality of data in the OSGB
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 10, 2014

                  Well Lynn codes APRSIS for free, OSM is world wide and free. OSGB maps are not free. And very country specific. Yes there is better quality of data in the OSGB maps to some extent. But I have my house and soon to be new house both mapped on OSM to the point it’s an end terrace and each house is mapped.

                   

                  An OSGB grids square map over an OSM map would not be that hard for Lynn to do. And as said previously would be world wide with change of datums.

                   

                  I really don’t see it worthwhile for Lynn to code things for 1 or 2 people

                   

                  That said he does if you get his interest.

                  Start by helping, supply a way to do what you want. Code examples or ways to link into an API for your map software. Really don’t expect him to do the research for you.

                   

                  I have a large number of things Lynn has put into his software, Because I go to the bother of researching and supplying info that he needs, or at least part of it.

                  I forget most but  Range circles for things at altitude such as balloons, and lately GPSD for sharing GPS data amongst multiple instance.

                   

                  Am a big supporter of Raynet currently building a cross band , that’s VHF UHF system for local use. To support them

                   

                  Steve Daniels

                  Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                  Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                  http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                  APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                   


                  From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Reg
                  Sent: 10 February 2014 18:28
                  To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [aprsisce] APRSISCE and UK mapping

                   

                   

                  On 9 February 2014 01:02, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                  > On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, bobsayers2000
                  < bobsayers2000 @...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > The general concensus seems to be that the use of APRS for
                  amateur-provided
                  > > emergency communications really requires a higher level of detail
                  than OSM can
                  > > provide, such as tracks and footpaths, field boundaries, and the
                  status of roads.
                  >
                  > Really? OSM maps can take you right down to individual stepping stones
                  > crossing a brook.

                  Stepping stones possibly, but to suggest that OSM maps provide
                  superior maps than the UK government's Ordnance Survey is much like
                  saying that OSM are better than the US government's National
                  Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.

                  > > Ordnance Survey 1:25000 mapping would seem to be the ideal
                  >
                  > OSM zoom level 14 equates to about 1:30000 and 15 equates to about
                  > 1:15000. You can zoom in to level 19 1:1000. That would tell me that
                  > OSM can provide 25 times more detail than the 1:25000 OS maps that you
                  > say are ideal.

                  I have been interested in using OS maps for about 60 years and am on
                  other lists that have digital mapping as important tools.

                  The magnification has little to do with detail. Maps of one scale can
                  be photographically enlarged to print a larger image, but the detail
                  remains the same. So although OSM maps are provided at higher zoom
                  levels the detail remains the same - you just get larger blank areas!

                  In practice Google Earth at zoom 15 is close to OS 1:25,000 in
                  displayed size (Meters/Pixel). Both provide useful details for the
                  OPs requirements. Although I have used zooms 16-19, that level is
                  generally not required in practice for RAYNET.

                  Out in a field at night, I'd not want to only have an OSM map! OS at
                  1:25,000 does the job - proven in practice.

                  > OSM is an open source, crowd sourced mapping project.
                  > EVERYONE can edit the map,

                  And therein lies it's weakness!

                  > Lynn might
                  be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
                  > handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.

                  This should not be a problem IF Lynn decides he want's it, as it was
                  implemented over a decade ago on Psion computers. These running with
                  low performance processors with 2 x AA batteries!

                  Reg

                • James Ewen
                  ... I have no idea who the US government s National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency is, nor the quality of their maps, but perhaps you might want to talk to
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 10, 2014
                    On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Reg <lists.reg@...> wrote:

                    > Stepping stones possibly, but to suggest that OSM maps provide
                    > superior maps than the UK government's Ordnance Survey is much like
                    > saying that OSM are better than the US government's National
                    > Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.

                    I have no idea who the US government's National
                    Geospatial-Intelligence Agency is, nor the quality of their maps, but
                    perhaps you might want to talk to specifics. It kind of sounds like
                    you are of the mindset that anything done by a government is superior
                    to that made by others.

                    Do you really see that much difference between these three maps?

                    http://imgur.com/1J3jOhB
                    http://imgur.com/4fBrjfb
                    http://imgur.com/tpRogq9


                    > I have been interested in using OS maps for about 60 years and am on
                    > other lists that have digital mapping as important tools.
                    >
                    > The magnification has little to do with detail. Maps of one scale can
                    > be photographically enlarged to print a larger image, but the detail
                    > remains the same. So although OSM maps are provided at higher zoom
                    > levels the detail remains the same - you just get larger blank areas!

                    I think you've got your concepts backwards. Zooming in on a 1:25000
                    scale map would not give you more detail, but rather just larger blobs
                    on the map.

                    The OSM maps are rendered at multiple scales.

                    Here's the Walworth area zoomed out:

                    http://imgur.com/K6EllDX

                    versus zoomed in:

                    http://imgur.com/1J3jOhB

                    Definitely not just a pixel duplication expansion.

                    > In practice Google Earth at zoom 15 is close to OS 1:25,000 in
                    > displayed size (Meters/Pixel). Both provide useful details for the
                    > OPs requirements. Although I have used zooms 16-19, that level is
                    > generally not required in practice for RAYNET.

                    So therefore, the OSM zoom level 15 is sufficient for your needs,
                    which is easily obtainable in APRSISCE/32.

                    > Out in a field at night, I'd not want to only have an OSM map! OS at
                    > 1:25,000 does the job - proven in practice.

                    That's your choice. You can have your paid for paper map in your hand,
                    and OSM maps in your electronic device.

                    >> OSM is an open source, crowd sourced mapping project.
                    >> EVERYONE can edit the map,
                    >
                    > And therein lies it's weakness!

                    That's a bad thing to be saying about yourself, because YOU can be
                    part of that crowd. This brings us back around to the original feeling
                    that you require people being paid in order to see value in the
                    product they produce.


                    >> Lynn might be a bit shy to implement such a task when it has to be
                    >> handled by low powered cellular telephone hardware.
                    >
                    > This should not be a problem IF Lynn decides he want's it, as it was
                    > implemented over a decade ago on Psion computers. These running with
                    > low performance processors with 2 x AA batteries!

                    We'd have to leave that determination up to Lynn... he's the master of
                    the code. Some things that seem to be very simple can be difficult to
                    implement. There are a number of seemingly simple things that have
                    been asked for that are not possible, but others that seem to be very
                    complex, yet get added in overnight.

                    --
                    James
                    VE6SRV
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