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map help

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  • kc5uta
    Well....I just got aprisis installed, passworded. The problem I have now is maps. The computer at home has no internet connection, so I must a jumpdrive to
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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      Well....I just got aprisis installed, "passworded." The problem I have now is maps.  The computer at home has no internet connection, so I must a jumpdrive to get the maps and file them in the prefetch aspect of the program.  All I want at this time is the US at the most down to at least county lines and a city icon, not really interested in the minute street detail at the city block level.  I have been all over the site and the tiles part  but seem to be missing the spot to download the tiles.....HELLLLLLLP!!

      sincerely frustrated...Dave
    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      Please read: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy ... More later once I get back home and get my private tile server back online. Lynn (D) -
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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        Please read:

        http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy

        Especially Bulk Downloading which says:

        Bulk downloading is strongly discouraged. Do not download tiles unnecessarily.

        More later once I get back home and get my private tile server back online.


        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32




        On 12/1/2013 8:49 AM, kc5uta@... wrote:
        Well....I just got aprisis installed, "passworded." The problem I have now is maps.  The computer at home has no internet connection, so I must a jumpdrive to get the maps and file them in the prefetch aspect of the program.  All I want at this time is the US at the most down to at least county lines and a city icon, not really interested in the minute street detail at the city block level.  I have been all over the site and the tiles part  but seem to be missing the spot to download the tiles.....HELLLLLLLP!!

        sincerely frustrated...Dave

      • James Ewen
        ... You download the tiles from the internet... you will need an internet connection to download the tiles. You seem to have an internet connection of some
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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          On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:49 AM, <kc5uta@...> wrote:

          > The problem I have now is maps. The computer at home has no internet connection,
          > so I must a jumpdrive to get the maps and file them in the prefetch aspect of the program.
          > All I want at this time is the US at the most down to at least county lines and a city icon,
          > not really interested in the minute street detail at the city block level. I have been all over
          > the site and the tiles part but seem to be missing the spot to download the tiles.....
          > HELLLLLLLP!!

          You download the tiles from the internet... you will need an internet
          connection to download the tiles.

          You seem to have an internet connection of some type since this email
          message is on the internet.

          The easiest solution to your problem would be to put the computer
          running APRSISCE/32 on the internet, scroll around gathering map tiles
          for the area of interest, and then take the computer back offline.

          Another solution would be to install APRSISCE/32 on another computer
          that has internet connectivity, and do the exact same as above, and
          then copy the maps directory structure to your jump drive, and then
          copy from the jump drive to the non-internet connected computer.

          APRSISCE/32 was conceived as an internet connected APRS viewing
          platform. Saving map tiles for offline viewing was added after the
          fact, along with connecting to a radio. Go through the wiki pages
          which talk about the map tiles, make sure you turn off tile purging,
          and load up the tiles.

          http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/tile-sets
          http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/map-prefetch
          http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/doc:disable-tile-purge


          --
          James
          VE6SRV
        • kc5uta
          second computer option.................well DUH!!!! Now why didn t I think of that! Thanks Mr. James :) Your help is appreciated. Dave ... You download
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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             second computer option.................well DUH!!!!  Now why didn't I think of that!   Thanks Mr. James :)

            Your help is appreciated.   Dave



            ---In aprsisce@yahoogroups.com, <ve6srv@...> wrote:

            On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 6:49 AM, <kc5uta@...> wrote:

            > The problem I have now is maps. The computer at home has no internet connection,
            > so I must a jumpdrive to get the maps and file them in the prefetch aspect of the program.
            > All I want at this time is the US at the most down to at least county lines and a city icon,
            > not really interested in the minute street detail at the city block level. I have been all over
            > the site and the tiles part but seem to be missing the spot to download the tiles.....
            > HELLLLLLLP!!

            You download the tiles from the internet... you will need an internet
            connection to download the tiles.

            You seem to have an internet connection of some type since this email
            message is on the internet.

            The easiest solution to your problem would be to put the computer
            running APRSISCE/32 on the internet, scroll around gathering map tiles
            for the area of interest, and then take the computer back offline.

            Another solution would be to install APRSISCE/32 on another computer
            that has internet connectivity, and do the exact same as above, and
            then copy the maps directory structure to your jump drive, and then
            copy from the jump drive to the non-internet connected computer.

            APRSISCE/32 was conceived as an internet connected APRS viewing
            platform. Saving map tiles for offline viewing was added after the
            fact, along with connecting to a radio. Go through the wiki pages
            which talk about the map tiles, make sure you turn off tile purging,
            and load up the tiles.

            http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/tile-sets
            http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/map-prefetch
            http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/doc:disable-tile-purge


            --
            James
            VE6SRV
          • Reg
            ... I fully support this principle, it saves bandwidth on the servers and reduces internet activity, resulting in faster internet speeds for all. But why is
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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              On 1 December 2013 14:27, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) <kj4erj@...> wrote:

              > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy
              >
              > Especially Bulk Downloading which says:
              >
              > Bulk downloading is strongly discouraged. Do not download tiles unnecessarily.

              I fully support this principle, it saves bandwidth on the servers and
              reduces internet activity, resulting in faster internet speeds for
              all.

              But why is the opposite so openly encouraged?

              Why are there so many, say Android apps, that keep downloading the
              same tiles for areas one travels through everyday? A single
              restricted fetcher thread that downloads a specified area for off-line
              use would reduce this duplication of downloaded tiles.

              OK APRS users don't control this and common sense is not considered
              necessary these days!

              Mobac does a good job in this respect, but is blocked by some servers
              and I'm not sure if it's formats can be converted for use with
              APRSIS32.



              I am tasked with setting-up APRS for my local RAYNET group and
              APRSIS32 is favoured by many. Unfortunately the majority of the
              events we cover are in forested areas and thus without internet
              coverage. I can get better reception than most as I have a '3' Mi-Fi
              device, which can be placed into a plastic bag and elevated on the
              group's pump-up mast.

              I've been told to 'move-about' the area while at home, but I can't
              find a facility to display any grid lines over maps, such as used in
              OziExplorer, to assist with this. Rather an embarrassment to have to
              say, sorry but I missed downloading tiles for this area, when an
              emergency occurs!

              Does APRSIS32 have a feature to display map coverage at different zoom
              levels, such as in Mobac?

              Another question, can files in the tiles folder tree be merged having
              been collected on many computers or must a complete set from another
              computer be transferred.
            • James Ewen
              ... Not in the APRSISCE/32 world... at least not by everyone. APRSISCE/32 has a retain period. That is how long the tiles are retained before being purged. If
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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                On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Reg <lists.reg@...> wrote:

                >> Bulk downloading is strongly discouraged. Do not download tiles unnecessarily.
                >
                > I fully support this principle, it saves bandwidth on the servers and
                > reduces internet activity, resulting in faster internet speeds for
                > all.
                >
                > But why is the opposite so openly encouraged?

                Not in the APRSISCE/32 world... at least not by everyone. APRSISCE/32
                has a retain period. That is how long the tiles are retained before
                being purged. If you hang onto tiles for 7 days, then you won't
                download tiles over and over during the seven days, but reuse the ones
                retained on your local drive.

                Also, when pulling only the tiles for immediate use, there is far less
                load placed on the servers as only a dozen or so tiles may be
                required, whereas bulk downloading may be asking for thousands or
                hundreds of thousands of tiles.

                > OK APRS users don't control this and common sense is not considered
                > necessary these days!

                But APRSISCE/32 users have control over this, and can exercise common sense.

                > Mobac does a good job in this respect, but is blocked by some servers
                > and I'm not sure if it's formats can be converted for use with
                > APRSIS32.

                Look into what this Mobac program does, and how it stores it's
                information. You use the program, do the research.

                > I am tasked with setting-up APRS for my local RAYNET group and
                > APRSIS32 is favoured by many. Unfortunately the majority of the
                > events we cover are in forested areas and thus without internet
                > coverage. I can get better reception than most as I have a '3' Mi-Fi
                > device, which can be placed into a plastic bag and elevated on the
                > group's pump-up mast.
                >
                > I've been told to 'move-about' the area while at home, but I can't
                > find a facility to display any grid lines over maps, such as used in
                > OziExplorer, to assist with this. Rather an embarrassment to have to
                > say, sorry but I missed downloading tiles for this area, when an
                > emergency occurs!

                The easy solution is to pay attention to what you are doing, and use a
                grid pattern when moving around the map. It's really easy to do with
                APRSISCE/32 as you can use the CTRL-Arrow Keys to move the map in only
                horizontal or vertical dimensions.

                I can pull in enough map tiles to give your desired detail level for
                all of Alberta within about 15 minutes. The whole of the UK easily
                fits into Alberta a number of times over.

                > Does APRSIS32 have a feature to display map coverage at different zoom
                > levels, such as in Mobac?

                What is Mobac? How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?

                You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                "copyright" issues.

                I could see doing something like putting a red tinge on a map tile
                that is available. Continue doing this down subsequent zoom layers. An
                area where there are 2 zoom layers available would be slightly darker
                than an area where only a single layer was available. By the time that
                there are 10 zoom layers available, the opacity would be very high,
                making the red very dark. This would be easiest observed by making the
                map tiles completely white (left arrow a whole bunch). All that would
                be left is the red tinge, and one could see lighter areas where map
                tiles might be missing. Only tiles below the current zoom level would
                add to the red tinge, so you could ignore the zoom levels from the
                larger tiles not being displayed.

                > Another question, can files in the tiles folder tree be merged having
                > been collected on many computers or must a complete set from another
                > computer be transferred.

                Yes, quite easily. Just copy one tree over the other. Windows Explorer
                handles the overwrite easily. You can copy over the tiles, or leave
                the existing tiles in place. It's up to you.

                If you mix and match different tile sets into one tree, you may end up
                with a patchwork quilt of different tiles sets like some people have
                done. It may be interesting to look at for a bit, but usually not a
                good idea.

                BTW, looking at the MOBAC FAQ, the last question answers your query
                about whether MOBAC uses the same format as APRSISCE/32...

                Q: I have tiles generated by another program (e.g. Mapnik, Maperative,
                MapTiler, ...) can I use them as source in MOBAC?
                A: Yes, local tiles can be used as map sources. MOBAC supports loading
                of tiles directly from file-system, from ZIP file(s) and from several
                SQLite atlas formats. For details how to use such tiles in MOBAC
                please refer to the README.HTM file that comes with MOBAC.

                You probably can point APRSISCE/32 at your MOBAC tile directory, or vice versa.

                APRSISCE/32 does not support saving the tiles in ZIP files or an
                SQLite format though.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • Steve Daniels
                As Reg mentions RAYNET he is probably in the UK, I know there are a number of RAYNET groups using APRSIS32 in the UK. It would probably be worth the RAYNET
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 1, 2013
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                  As Reg mentions RAYNET he is probably in the UK , I know there are a number of RAYNET groups using APRSIS32 in the UK .

                  It would probably be worth the RAYNET groups getting together and talking though APRS use for Emaegcy or Event use, for that matter similar groups worldwide.

                  Possibly to the extent of setting up and APRSISCE/32 SAR group.

                   

                  I asked John author of Dire Wolf to include APRStt in his software modem to support non APRS Radios for SAR situations, which he has done, Lynn has not yet found the time to include this in APRSISCE/32 but it does work standalone and includes the ability to do short DTMF codes.

                   

                  My understanding is that Lynn does not look at other software, not from copyright issues, but because he wants to code what you actually want, not what feature you are fudging in other clients, to get to do what you want.

                   

                  I usually get what I want by offering to buy Lynns YL ice cream and then threatening to not buy if he does not do it J

                   

                  Steve Daniels

                  Amateur Radio Callsign G6UIM

                  Torbay Freecycle  Owner

                  http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/torbay_freecycle

                  APRSISCE/32 Beta tester and WIKI editor http://aprsisce.wikidot.com

                   


                  From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                  Sent: 01 December 2013 23:05
                  To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [aprsisce] map help

                   

                   

                  On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Reg <lists.reg@...> wrote:

                  >> Bulk downloading is strongly discouraged. Do not download tiles
                  unnecessarily.
                  >
                  > I fully support this principle, it saves bandwidth on the servers and
                  > reduces internet activity, resulting in faster internet speeds for
                  > all.
                  >
                  > But why is the opposite so openly encouraged?

                  Not in the APRSISCE/32 world... at least not by everyone. APRSISCE/32
                  has a retain period. That is how long the tiles are retained before
                  being purged. If you hang onto tiles for 7 days, then you won't
                  download tiles over and over during the seven days, but reuse the ones
                  retained on your local drive.

                  Also, when pulling only the tiles for immediate use, there is far less
                  load placed on the servers as only a dozen or so tiles may be
                  required, whereas bulk downloading may be asking for thousands or
                  hundreds of thousands of tiles.

                  > OK APRS users don't control this and common sense is not considered
                  > necessary these days!

                  But APRSISCE/32 users have control over this, and can exercise common sense.

                  > Mobac does a good job in this respect, but is blocked by some servers
                  > and I'm not sure if it's formats can be converted for use with
                  > APRSIS32.

                  Look into what this Mobac program does, and how it stores it's
                  information. You use the program, do the research.

                  > I am tasked with setting-up APRS for my local RAYNET group and
                  > APRSIS32 is favoured by many. Unfortunately the majority of the
                  > events we cover are in forested areas and thus without internet
                  > coverage. I can get better reception than most as I have a '3' Mi-Fi
                  > device, which can be placed into a plastic bag and elevated on the
                  > group's pump-up mast.
                  >
                  > I've been told to 'move-about' the area while at home, but I can't
                  > find a facility to display any grid lines over maps, such as used in
                  > OziExplorer, to assist with this. Rather an embarrassment to have to
                  > say, sorry but I missed downloading tiles for this area, when an
                  > emergency occurs!

                  The easy solution is to pay attention to what you are doing, and use a
                  grid pattern when moving around the map. It's really easy to do with
                  APRSISCE/32 as you can use the CTRL-Arrow Keys to move the map in only
                  horizontal or vertical dimensions.

                  I can pull in enough map tiles to give your desired detail level for
                  all of Alberta within about 15 minutes. The whole of the UK easily
                  fits into Alberta a number of times over.

                  > Does APRSIS32 have a feature to display map coverage at different zoom
                  > levels, such as in Mobac?

                  What is Mobac? How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?

                  You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                  not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                  "copyright" issues.

                  I could see doing something like putting a red tinge on a map tile
                  that is available. Continue doing this down subsequent zoom layers. An
                  area where there are 2 zoom layers available would be slightly darker
                  than an area where only a single layer was available. By the time that
                  there are 10 zoom layers available, the opacity would be very high,
                  making the red very dark. This would be easiest observed by making the
                  map tiles completely white (left arrow a whole bunch). All that would
                  be left is the red tinge, and one could see lighter areas where map
                  tiles might be missing. Only tiles below the current zoom level would
                  add to the red tinge, so you could ignore the zoom levels from the
                  larger tiles not being displayed.

                  > Another question, can files in the tiles folder tree be merged having
                  > been collected on many computers or must a complete set from another
                  > computer be transferred.

                  Yes, quite easily. Just copy one tree over the other. Windows Explorer
                  handles the overwrite easily. You can copy over the tiles, or leave
                  the existing tiles in place. It's up to you.

                  If you mix and match different tile sets into one tree, you may end up
                  with a patchwork quilt of different tiles sets like some people have
                  done. It may be interesting to look at for a bit, but usually not a
                  good idea.

                  BTW, looking at the MOBAC FAQ, the last question answers your query
                  about whether MOBAC uses the same format as APRSISCE/32...

                  Q: I have tiles generated by another program (e.g. Mapnik, Maperative,
                  MapTiler, ...) can I use them as source in MOBAC?
                  A: Yes, local tiles can be used as map sources. MOBAC supports loading
                  of tiles directly from file-system, from ZIP file(s) and from several
                  SQLite atlas formats. For details how to use such tiles in MOBAC
                  please refer to the README.HTM file that comes with MOBAC.

                  You probably can point APRSISCE/32 at your MOBAC tile directory, or vice versa.

                  APRSISCE/32 does not support saving the tiles in ZIP files or an
                  SQLite format though.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV

                • Reg
                  ... I agree James, it s elsewhere, but the logic does not make sense. For a sensible considerate user (I know difficult to find elsewhere) it s the reverse
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 2, 2013
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                    On 1 December 2013 23:04, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                    > > But why is the opposite so openly encouraged?
                    >
                    > Not in the APRSISCE/32 world... at least not by everyone. APRSISCE/32

                    I agree James, it's elsewhere, but the logic does not make sense. For
                    a sensible considerate user (I know difficult to find elsewhere) it's
                    the reverse that's happening. APRSIS32 conforms properly.

                    > > I've been told to 'move-about' the area while at home, but I can't
                    > > find a facility to display any grid lines over maps, such as used in
                    > > OziExplorer, to assist with this. Rather an embarrassment to have to
                    > > say, sorry but I missed downloading tiles for this area, when an
                    > > emergency occurs!
                    >
                    > The easy solution is to pay attention to what you are doing, and use a
                    > grid pattern when moving around the map. It's really easy to do with
                    > APRSISCE/32 as you can use the CTRL-Arrow Keys to move the map in only
                    > horizontal or vertical dimensions.

                    Thanks for that advice.

                    > I can pull in enough map tiles to give your desired detail level for
                    > all of Alberta within about 15 minutes. The whole of the UK easily
                    > fits into Alberta a number of times over.

                    This suggests APRSIS32 is using a large number of fetcher threads or
                    not getting high zoom levels that we need. With a competitor down, be
                    that horse rider, biker, cyclist, runner, in a forest the higher zoom
                    levels are required. I've just looked at OSM - Map Quest and zoom 15
                    is probably the best - that's about 2256 tiles, for one event.
                    Although I have been using some zoom 17 with OziExplorer.

                    > > Does APRSIS32 have a feature to display map coverage at different zoom
                    > > levels, such as in Mobac?
                    >
                    > How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?

                    There is a feature on the main screen for setting a zoom level and
                    clicking on 'Show coverage'. Then the area of downloaded tiles is show
                    with a green overlay. But Mobac is not a map displaying and using
                    program; it's only for collecting tiles for use elsewhere.

                    > You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                    > not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                    > "copyright" issues.

                    I'm not asking for an added feature.

                    > > Another question, can files in the tiles folder tree be merged having
                    > > been collected on many computers or must a complete set from another
                    > > computer be transferred.
                    >
                    > Yes, quite easily. Just copy one tree over the other. Windows Explorer
                    > handles the overwrite easily. You can copy over the tiles, or leave
                    > the existing tiles in place. It's up to you.

                    Thanks for that advise. I had wondered if there was any indexing to
                    worry about, which a copy over would corrupt. I use Vice Versa PRO
                    for backing up and that manages syncing folders and/or trees very
                    well.

                    > If you mix and match different tile sets into one tree, you may end up
                    > with a patchwork quilt of different tiles sets like some people have
                    > done. It may be interesting to look at for a bit, but usually not a
                    > good idea.

                    I'd agree.

                    Thanks again James for a helpful reply.
                  • Reg
                    ... Correct. ... That would make sense Steve, but actioning it almost impossible I d say! It s bad enough getting all in one group to agree, zone wide
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 2, 2013
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                      On 2 December 2013 00:31, Steve Daniels <steve@...> wrote:

                      > As Reg mentions RAYNET he is probably in the UK, I know there are a number of RAYNET groups using APRSIS32 in the UK.

                      Correct.

                      > It would probably be worth the RAYNET groups getting together and talking though APRS use for Emaegcy or Event use, for that matter similar groups worldwide.
                      >
                      > Possibly to the extent of setting up and APRSISCE/32 SAR group.

                      That would make sense Steve, but actioning it almost impossible I'd say!

                      It's bad enough getting all in one group to agree, zone wide extremely
                      difficult and nationwide impossible due to the politics of the two
                      flavours of RAYNET - RAEN & RSGB.

                      However I do have an initial agreement with another group in the same
                      county, that we set-up a compatible system in both groups so that we
                      can inter-work when needed.

                      AORSIS32 had the lead over UI-View32 at the moment.
                      Reg
                    • James Ewen
                      ... I don t go down to the maximum zoom level. I can get city street level detail at zoom level 15. Anything more doesn t give any better detail, it just makes
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 2, 2013
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                        On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Reg <lists.reg@...> wrote:

                        >> I can pull in enough map tiles to give your desired detail level for
                        >> all of Alberta within about 15 minutes. The whole of the UK easily
                        >> fits into Alberta a number of times over.
                        >
                        > This suggests APRSIS32 is using a large number of fetcher threads or
                        > not getting high zoom levels that we need.

                        I don't go down to the maximum zoom level. I can get city street level
                        detail at zoom level 15. Anything more doesn't give any better detail,
                        it just makes the roads wider and shows me less area. For rural areas,
                        zoom level 13 is quite sufficient for my needs.

                        > With a competitor down, be that horse rider, biker, cyclist, runner,
                        > in a forest the higher zoom levels are required.
                        > I've just looked at OSM - Map Quest and zoom 15
                        > is probably the best - that's about 2256 tiles, for one event.
                        > Although I have been using some zoom 17 with OziExplorer.

                        Are you playing "Where's Wally?" (Where's Waldo on this side of the
                        pond), and actually looking for the downed rider hiding behind the
                        individual tree icons?

                        I have no idea what part of the island you're on, but I was just
                        snooping, and at zoom level 16, you can get what looks like hedgerows
                        and rockwalls in the fields, which could help identify the field the
                        target may be in. Zoom 17 doesn't add any more details in the area I
                        was looking at.

                        >> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                        >
                        > There is a feature on the main screen for setting a zoom level and
                        > clicking on 'Show coverage'. Then the area of downloaded tiles is show
                        > with a green overlay. But Mobac is not a map displaying and using
                        > program; it's only for collecting tiles for use elsewhere.

                        Does it just show the current zoom level? That doesn't seem like much
                        use. You just look at the map, and any areas that are white would
                        indicate no map tile was available.

                        >> You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                        >> not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                        >> "copyright" issues.
                        >
                        > I'm not asking for an added feature.

                        I actually think what I described would be a good feature to help
                        identify where missing tiles at a desired zoom level might be... Even
                        though you might not want it, now I think I want it! :)

                        >> > Another question, can files in the tiles folder tree be merged having
                        >> > been collected on many computers or must a complete set from another
                        >> > computer be transferred.
                        >>
                        >> Yes, quite easily. Just copy one tree over the other. Windows Explorer
                        >> handles the overwrite easily. You can copy over the tiles, or leave
                        >> the existing tiles in place. It's up to you.
                        >
                        > Thanks for that advise. I had wondered if there was any indexing to
                        > worry about, which a copy over would corrupt. I use Vice Versa PRO
                        > for backing up and that manages syncing folders and/or trees very
                        > well.

                        The wiki describes the tile structure, and you can always just snoop
                        in the tree with Windows Explorer... you can't really bugger it up too
                        much. It will self heal if you do. Well, at least if you have internet
                        access. Have you looked to see which mode MOBAC is using to store your
                        tiles yet?

                        --
                        James
                        VE6SRV
                      • Reg
                        ... Well that s quite possible. Years ago, well before GPS etc., I was on a night exercise looking for a downed aircraft pilot in forest land. I ve
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 3, 2013
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                          On 3 December 2013 06:07, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                          > Are you playing "Where's Wally?" (Where's Waldo on this side of the
                          > pond), and actually looking for the downed rider hiding behind the
                          > individual tree icons?

                          Well that's quite possible. Years ago, well before GPS etc., I was on
                          a night exercise looking for a downed aircraft pilot in forest land.
                          I've experienced a searcher walking within 6 foot of a person and not
                          seeing that person.

                          It's not so much the reduced detail in OSM maps that's the problem,
                          it's the station ID on the map.

                          Using aprs.fi which is 1 inch to 2 miles on my desktop screen in
                          default startup; it's difficult to see two of my IDs that are
                          deliberatly slightly apart (XP and Android).

                          In a SAR situation, with stations very close, I would expect (APRSIS32
                          not yet in full use) a problem with IDs being on top of each other.

                          > I have no idea what part of the island you're on, but I was just
                          > snooping, and at zoom level 16, you can get what looks like hedgerows
                          > and rockwalls in the fields, which could help identify the field the
                          > target may be in. Zoom 17 doesn't add any more details in the area I
                          > was looking at.

                          But imagine that field full of pine trees.

                          > >> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?

                          Are we getting OT?

                          > > There is a feature on the main screen for setting a zoom level and
                          > > clicking on 'Show coverage'. Then the area of downloaded tiles is show
                          > > with a green overlay. But Mobac is not a map displaying and using
                          > > program; it's only for collecting tiles for use elsewhere.
                          >
                          > Does it just show the current zoom level? That doesn't seem like much
                          > use. You just look at the map, and any areas that are white would
                          > indicate no map tile was available.

                          Yes only one zoom level at a time. But getting adjacent zoom levels
                          is not required as I've found that one level will just be a doubling
                          of pixels x & y, of an adjacent level. In OziEx (my main program) I
                          can just zoom a single 'zoom level'. So getting that adjacent set of
                          zoom level tiles, which will be 4 times larger to download, is
                          unnecessary. (Another example of intelligent bulk downloading actually
                          reducing the load on a server.)

                          > >> You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                          > >> not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                          > >> "copyright" issues.
                          > >
                          > > I'm not asking for an added feature.
                          >
                          > I actually think what I described would be a good feature to help
                          > identify where missing tiles at a desired zoom level might be... Even
                          > though you might not want it, now I think I want it! :)

                          So I've given you a new idea! I would want it too, but as a new user
                          of APRSIS32, I don't think that I'm entitled to make requests.

                          > Have you looked to see which mode MOBAC is using to store your
                          > tiles yet?

                          In APRSIS32 each tile is stored a single normal .png files in a structured tree.

                          In Mobac the tiles are packed into .jdb files each 9.7MB fixed size,
                          when full. So not viewable on their own. A different folder is also
                          used for every map source.

                          Then one can select the style of map one requires from a drop down
                          list. So having collected the tiles, it's possible to generate maps
                          for use with different programs, from the collection of .jdb files,
                          without more downloading. (Another example of intelligent bulk
                          downloading actually reducing the load on a server.)

                          If you require a map that covers a larger or adjacent area to one
                          already produced, then it gathers existing tiles from disk and only
                          downloads the extra tiles required, just like APRSIS32.

                          But as I mentioned above probably getting too much OT.

                          Reg.
                        • Fred Hillhouse
                          OT is actually acceptable, mostly anyway. In this case it sounds like you have an idea within really saying that. :) For totally off topic, we do have
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 3, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            OT is actually acceptable, mostly anyway. In this case it sounds like you have an idea within really saying that. :)
                             
                             
                            APRSIS32 does try to move IDs off of each other. There is some limitations but for the most part it works.
                             
                            New users are welcome to ask questions and ask for features. It does require more than "hey I want this" but that is true for everyone. If you can describe the feature and there is enough interest, it could be at least added to the "to do" list.
                             
                            Best regards,
                            Fred N7FMH
                             
                             


                            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Reg
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 13:24
                            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [aprsisce] map help

                             

                            On 3 December 2013 06:07, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                            > Are you playing "Where's Wally?" (Where's Waldo on this side of the
                            > pond), and actually looking for the downed rider hiding behind the
                            > individual tree icons?

                            Well that's quite possible. Years ago, well before GPS etc., I was on
                            a night exercise looking for a downed aircraft pilot in forest land.
                            I've experienced a searcher walking within 6 foot of a person and not
                            seeing that person.

                            It's not so much the reduced detail in OSM maps that's the problem,
                            it's the station ID on the map.

                            Using aprs.fi which is 1 inch to 2 miles on my desktop screen in
                            default startup; it's difficult to see two of my IDs that are
                            deliberatly slightly apart (XP and Android).

                            In a SAR situation, with stations very close, I would expect (APRSIS32
                            not yet in full use) a problem with IDs being on top of each other.

                            > I have no idea what part of the island you're on, but I was just
                            > snooping, and at zoom level 16, you can get what looks like hedgerows
                            > and rockwalls in the fields, which could help identify the field the
                            > target may be in. Zoom 17 doesn't add any more details in the area I
                            > was looking at.

                            But imagine that field full of pine trees.

                            > >> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?

                            Are we getting OT?

                            > > There is a feature on the main screen for setting a zoom level and
                            > > clicking on 'Show coverage'. Then the area of downloaded tiles is show
                            > > with a green overlay. But Mobac is not a map displaying and using
                            > > program; it's only for collecting tiles for use elsewhere.
                            >
                            > Does it just show the current zoom level? That doesn't seem like much
                            > use. You just look at the map, and any areas that are white would
                            > indicate no map tile was available.

                            Yes only one zoom level at a time. But getting adjacent zoom levels
                            is not required as I've found that one level will just be a doubling
                            of pixels x & y, of an adjacent level. In OziEx (my main program) I
                            can just zoom a single 'zoom level'. So getting that adjacent set of
                            zoom level tiles, which will be 4 times larger to download, is
                            unnecessary. (Another example of intelligent bulk downloading actually
                            reducing the load on a server.)

                            > >> You'll probably have to describe it in detail as Lynn (as a rule) does
                            > >> not look at any other programs and how they work so as to not run into
                            > >> "copyright" issues.
                            > >
                            > > I'm not asking for an added feature.
                            >
                            > I actually think what I described would be a good feature to help
                            > identify where missing tiles at a desired zoom level might be... Even
                            > though you might not want it, now I think I want it! :)

                            So I've given you a new idea! I would want it too, but as a new user
                            of APRSIS32, I don't think that I'm entitled to make requests.

                            > Have you looked to see which mode MOBAC is using to store your
                            > tiles yet?

                            In APRSIS32 each tile is stored a single normal .png files in a structured tree.

                            In Mobac the tiles are packed into .jdb files each 9.7MB fixed size,
                            when full. So not viewable on their own. A different folder is also
                            used for every map source.

                            Then one can select the style of map one requires from a drop down
                            list. So having collected the tiles, it's possible to generate maps
                            for use with different programs, from the collection of .jdb files,
                            without more downloading. (Another example of intelligent bulk
                            downloading actually reducing the load on a server.)

                            If you require a map that covers a larger or adjacent area to one
                            already produced, then it gathers existing tiles from disk and only
                            downloads the extra tiles required, just like APRSIS32.

                            But as I mentioned above probably getting too much OT.

                            Reg.

                          • James Ewen
                            ... I m not quite understanding how having very high resolution maps will help the SAR crews locate a missing person. Let s say that you get a tile that is 50
                            Message 13 of 24 , Dec 3, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Reg <lists.reg@...> wrote:

                              >> Are you playing "Where's Wally?"
                              > Well that's quite possible. Years ago, well before GPS etc., I was on
                              > a night exercise looking for a downed aircraft pilot in forest land.
                              > I've experienced a searcher walking within 6 foot of a person and not
                              > seeing that person.

                              I'm not quite understanding how having very high resolution maps will
                              help the SAR crews locate a missing person. Let's say that you get a
                              tile that is 50 feet on a side, and it shows the whole tile being pine
                              trees. How will having that super high resolution pine tree tile help
                              your man on the ground find the missing person sitting against a tree
                              trunk?

                              > It's not so much the reduced detail in OSM maps that's the problem,
                              > it's the station ID on the map.

                              So you are worried about the icons? The icons will plot where the
                              postion report places them

                              > Using aprs.fi which is 1 inch to 2 miles on my desktop screen in
                              > default startup; it's difficult to see two of my IDs that are
                              > deliberatly slightly apart (XP and Android).

                              That is a function of the display routines that are used by aprs.fi.
                              All the icons in Edmonton are all in a jumble when I'm zoomed out to
                              see Canada.

                              > In a SAR situation, with stations very close, I would expect (APRSIS32
                              > not yet in full use) a problem with IDs being on top of each other.

                              Try giving APRSISCE/32 a go then. You'll find that Lynn has a smart
                              routine built in to try keep the callsigns from overlapping even if
                              the icons are dropped one on top of the other.

                              If your only issue is trying to be able to read the callsigns (or
                              tactical calls) of the various icons standing around the ICP prior to
                              deployment, Lynn has you covered.

                              >> I have no idea what part of the island you're on, but I was just
                              >> snooping, and at zoom level 16, you can get what looks like hedgerows
                              >> and rockwalls in the fields, which could help identify the field the
                              >> target may be in. Zoom 17 doesn't add any more details in the area I
                              >> was looking at.
                              >
                              > But imagine that field full of pine trees.

                              Come for a visit... I'll show you a field full of pine trees... pine,
                              spruce, you name it for thousands upon thousands of miles. As
                              described above, the detail doesn't get any better when you zoom in,
                              you just end up with more pixels describing the same thing, and many
                              more tiles you have to store.

                              >> >> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                              >
                              > Are we getting OT?

                              Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                              APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                              he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                              > Yes only one zoom level at a time. But getting adjacent zoom levels
                              > is not required as I've found that one level will just be a doubling
                              > of pixels x & y, of an adjacent level.

                              Hey, sounds like my description above... APRSISCE/32 will try to
                              stretch tiles from adjacent zoom levels to make up for missing tiles.

                              > In OziEx (my main program) I
                              > can just zoom a single 'zoom level'. So getting that adjacent set of
                              > zoom level tiles, which will be 4 times larger to download, is
                              > unnecessary. (Another example of intelligent bulk downloading actually
                              > reducing the load on a server.)

                              Sounds like you really should give APRSISCE/32 a go, and see what it
                              does. You might find that all your requests have actually been dealt
                              with already.

                              > So I've given you a new idea! I would want it too, but as a new user
                              > of APRSIS32, I don't think that I'm entitled to make requests.

                              Sure you are... however though, it sounds like a lot of what you are
                              asking for is already dealt with in APRSISCE/32, and if you gave the
                              program a try, you'd find you didn't have to make requests.

                              >> Have you looked to see which mode MOBAC is using to store your
                              >> tiles yet?
                              >
                              > In APRSIS32 each tile is stored a single normal .png files in a structured tree.
                              >
                              > In Mobac the tiles are packed into .jdb files each 9.7MB fixed size,
                              > when full. So not viewable on their own. A different folder is also
                              > used for every map source.

                              Yeah, sounded like MOBAC packed things for efficiency. The individual
                              .png files are a space waster in the FAT file system. Especially so
                              when trying to save them on an SD card. It did sound like MOBAC could
                              access map tiles from the tree structure that APRSISCE/32 saves them
                              in... I might be jumping the gun though.

                              > Reg.

                              If you tossed a callsign out once in a while we might get to know who
                              you are, and be able to snoop in your local area to get a feel for
                              what you are dealing with.

                              --
                              James
                              VE6SRV
                            • Reg
                              ... That s good to know James. (In a private e-mail, I ve given details how giving it a go, presents me with a problem.) ... I m learning even more. Reg
                              Message 14 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                On 4 December 2013 02:01, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                                > > In a SAR situation, with stations very close, I would expect (APRSIS32
                                > > not yet in full use) a problem with IDs being on top of each other.
                                >
                                > Try giving APRSISCE/32 a go then. You'll find that Lynn has a smart
                                > routine built in to try keep the callsigns from overlapping even if
                                > the icons are dropped one on top of the other.

                                That's good to know James. (In a private e-mail, I've given details
                                how giving it a go, presents me with a problem.)

                                > Hey, sounds like my description above... APRSISCE/32 will try to
                                > stretch tiles from adjacent zoom levels to make up for missing tiles.

                                I'm learning even more.

                                Reg
                              • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                ... Yes, I ve been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following: http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/* Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z
                                Message 15 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  On 12/3/2013 9:01 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>>>> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                                  >> Are we getting OT?
                                  > Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                                  > APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                                  > he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                                  Yes, I've been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following:

                                  http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/*

                                  Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z is the zoom level. This
                                  isn't exactly map coverage from the APRSISCE/32 cache, but it's a
                                  visualization of which tiles my private OSM tile server has rendered
                                  (not white), how many times it was rendered (number inside), and how
                                  long the rendering of that tile took (colored with scale). But note
                                  that tile servers don't actually render in 256x256 individual tiles, but
                                  use 8x8 of those tiles in what is called a "meta tile". The resolution
                                  of these images is at the meta-tile level.

                                  Given that and the size of those images and the fact that the
                                  APRSISCE/32 cache will be 8 times the count in both directions, just how
                                  do you propose visualizing that on a small-screen device? I know you're
                                  going to tell me that "it's only for a small local area", but remember
                                  that the code needs to handle everyone's needs, not just your's. In my
                                  case, I have tiles cached at various zoom levels from all over the planet.

                                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                                • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                  ... Even my label collision avoidance routine can t handle my own QTH (yes, there are really two different QRUKJ4ERJ objects there): The menu to the right is
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    On 12/4/2013 12:30 PM, Reg wrote:
                                    On 4 December 2013 02:01, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                                    
                                    
                                    In a SAR situation, with stations very close, I would expect (APRSIS32
                                    not yet in full use) a problem with IDs being on top of each other.
                                    
                                    Try giving APRSISCE/32 a go then. You'll find that Lynn has a smart
                                    routine built in to try keep the callsigns from overlapping even if
                                    the icons are dropped one on top of the other.

                                    Even my label collision avoidance routine can't handle my own QTH (yes, there are really two different QRUKJ4ERJ objects there):



                                    The menu to the right is what you get when you click on the bottom stack.  If the avoidance algorithm can't find an empty-enough hole, it devolves into just overlapping them.  Compare this to the non-avoidance method (check Configure / Screen / Label / Allow Overlap) and aprs.fi:



                                    Even zoomed in closer, aprs.fi doesn't even give much of a hint as to how many objects are stacked up in that one coordinate space.  And I still like how APRSISCE/32 makes the symbols larger as you zoom in rather than keeping them the same size regardless of zoom level.

                                    Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                  • Fred Hillhouse
                                    Hi Lynn, If I understand the picture below, that should be zoom level 0, right? Zoom level 0 has a single tile whereas zoom level three has a total of 16
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Lynn,
                                       
                                      If I understand the picture below, that should be zoom level 0, right? Zoom level 0 has a single tile whereas zoom level three has a total of 16 tiles.
                                       
                                       
                                      And zoom level 5 should have 256 tiles rather than 16.
                                       
                                      Just wondering ...
                                       
                                       
                                      Thanks!
                                       
                                      Best regards,
                                      Fred N7FMH
                                       
                                       


                                      From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 14:13
                                      To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization (was: map help)

                                       

                                      On 12/3/2013 9:01 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>>>> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                                      >> Are we getting OT?
                                      > Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                                      > APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                                      > he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                                      Yes, I've been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following:

                                      http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/*

                                      Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z is the zoom level. This
                                      isn't exactly map coverage from the APRSISCE/32 cache, but it's a
                                      visualization of which tiles my private OSM tile server has rendered
                                      (not white), how many times it was rendered (number inside), and how
                                      long the rendering of that tile took (colored with scale). But note
                                      that tile servers don't actually render in 256x256 individual tiles, but
                                      use 8x8 of those tiles in what is called a "meta tile". The resolution
                                      of these images is at the meta-tile level.

                                      Given that and the size of those images and the fact that the
                                      APRSISCE/32 cache will be 8 times the count in both directions, just how
                                      do you propose visualizing that on a small-screen device? I know you're
                                      going to tell me that "it's only for a small local area", but remember
                                      that the code needs to handle everyone's needs, not just your's. In my
                                      case, I have tiles cached at various zoom levels from all over the planet.

                                      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                    • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                      Not quite. Remember that tile servers work in meta tiles which are 8x8 tiles. Therefore zoom level 3 has 1 meta tile. 0 = 1x1 1 = 2x2 2 = 4x4 3 = 8x8 = 1
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Not quite.  Remember that tile servers work in "meta tiles" which are 8x8 tiles.  Therefore zoom level 3 has 1 meta tile.

                                        0 = 1x1
                                        1 = 2x2
                                        2 = 4x4
                                        3 = 8x8 = 1 meta tile
                                        4 = 16x16 = 4 meta tiles
                                        5 = 32x32 = 16 meta tiles (32/8x32/8=4x4=16)

                                        I don't bother with zooms less than 3 because they're just not that important nor do the OSM changes even really require them to be re-rendered.  There's an entire other learning curve at figuring out how to apply updates to an OSM tile server as well as which tiles are worth marking "dirty" for re-rendering.

                                        And given how fast the Meta Tile presentation gets really small (look at the zoom 13), the tile level will be worse (meta tile level 13 is the same number of tiles as normal tile level 10).

                                        Watch for an update to come to the files in the following URL that show which areas of the globe were invalidated by each update applied to my tile server.

                                        http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/*

                                        The ones in there right now cover March through July of 2012.  I'm crunching the recent log files and will be replacing that set with new ones covering November 2013 to the most recent update.

                                        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                        <snipped images from reply>

                                        On 12/4/2013 3:02 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                                        Hi Lynn,
                                         
                                        If I understand the picture below, that should be zoom level 0, right? Zoom level 0 has a single tile whereas zoom level three has a total of 16 tiles.
                                         

                                         
                                        And zoom level 5 should have 256 tiles rather than 16.

                                         
                                        Just wondering ...
                                         
                                         
                                        Thanks!
                                         
                                        Best regards,
                                        Fred N7FMH
                                         
                                         


                                        From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                        Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 14:13
                                        To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization (was: map help)

                                         

                                        On 12/3/2013 9:01 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>>>> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                                        >> Are we getting OT?
                                        > Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                                        > APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                                        > he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                                        Yes, I've been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following:

                                        http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/*

                                        Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z is the zoom level. This
                                        isn't exactly map coverage from the APRSISCE/32 cache, but it's a
                                        visualization of which tiles my private OSM tile server has rendered
                                        (not white), how many times it was rendered (number inside), and how
                                        long the rendering of that tile took (colored with scale). But note
                                        that tile servers don't actually render in 256x256 individual tiles, but
                                        use 8x8 of those tiles in what is called a "meta tile". The resolution
                                        of these images is at the meta-tile level.

                                        Given that and the size of those images and the fact that the
                                        APRSISCE/32 cache will be 8 times the count in both directions, just how
                                        do you propose visualizing that on a small-screen device? I know you're
                                        going to tell me that "it's only for a small local area", but remember
                                        that the code needs to handle everyone's needs, not just your's. In my
                                        case, I have tiles cached at various zoom levels from all over the planet.

                                        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


                                      • Fred Hillhouse
                                        Ah yes, 8x8, that would explain my confusion. I did notice that tiles were rendered for the wide open ocean. Someone was following the ISS probably considering
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Ah yes, 8x8, that would explain my confusion.
                                           
                                          I did notice that tiles were rendered for the wide open ocean. Someone was following the ISS probably considering the path.
                                           
                                          Thanks!
                                           
                                          Best regards,
                                          Fred N7FMH
                                           


                                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                          Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 15:12
                                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization

                                           

                                          Not quite.  Remember that tile servers work in "meta tiles" which are 8x8 tiles.  Therefore zoom level 3 has 1 meta tile.

                                          0 = 1x1
                                          1 = 2x2
                                          2 = 4x4
                                          3 = 8x8 = 1 meta tile
                                          4 = 16x16 = 4 meta tiles
                                          5 = 32x32 = 16 meta tiles (32/8x32/8=4x4=16)

                                          I don't bother with zooms less than 3 because they're just not that important nor do the OSM changes even really require them to be re-rendered.  There's an entire other learning curve at figuring out how to apply updates to an OSM tile server as well as which tiles are worth marking "dirty" for re-rendering.

                                          And given how fast the Meta Tile presentation gets really small (look at the zoom 13), the tile level will be worse (meta tile level 13 is the same number of tiles as normal tile level 10).

                                          Watch for an update to come to the files in the following URL that show which areas of the globe were invalidated by each update applied to my tile server.

                                          http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/*

                                          The ones in there right now cover March through July of 2012.  I'm crunching the recent log files and will be replacing that set with new ones covering November 2013 to the most recent update.


                                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                          <snipped images from reply>

                                          On 12/4/2013 3:02 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                                          Hi Lynn,
                                           
                                          If I understand the picture below, that should be zoom level 0, right? Zoom level 0 has a single tile whereas zoom level three has a total of 16 tiles.
                                           

                                           
                                          And zoom level 5 should have 256 tiles rather than 16.

                                           
                                          Just wondering ...
                                           
                                           
                                          Thanks!
                                           
                                          Best regards,
                                          Fred N7FMH
                                           
                                           


                                          From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                          Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 14:13
                                          To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization (was: map help)

                                           

                                          On 12/3/2013 9:01 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                          >
                                          >>>>> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                                          >> Are we getting OT?
                                          > Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                                          > APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                                          > he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                                          Yes, I've been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following:

                                          http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/*

                                          Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z is the zoom level. This
                                          isn't exactly map coverage from the APRSISCE/32 cache, but it's a
                                          visualization of which tiles my private OSM tile server has rendered
                                          (not white), how many times it was rendered (number inside), and how
                                          long the rendering of that tile took (colored with scale). But note
                                          that tile servers don't actually render in 256x256 individual tiles, but
                                          use 8x8 of those tiles in what is called a "meta tile". The resolution
                                          of these images is at the meta-tile level.

                                          Given that and the size of those images and the fact that the
                                          APRSISCE/32 cache will be 8 times the count in both directions, just how
                                          do you propose visualizing that on a small-screen device? I know you're
                                          going to tell me that "it's only for a small local area", but remember
                                          that the code needs to handle everyone's needs, not just your's. In my
                                          case, I have tiles cached at various zoom levels from all over the planet.

                                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


                                        • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                          Well, actually I tried to force all tiles to render at the lower zooms at least once. And yes, I have also left test clients running with a MultiTrack (or the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                            Well, actually I tried to force all tiles to render at the lower zooms at least once.  And yes, I have also left test clients running with a MultiTrack (or the main window on APRSISMO) following the ISS at various zoom levels, just to shake things up a bit.

                                            Eventually my tile server is going to run out of disk space for the rendered tiles, but I'll deal with that issue when it gets closer.  I think I'm actually going to run out of space on my 2 SSDs (128G + 256G) that hold the OSM database.  One was full after my recent catch-up run, but luckily I discovered I had a few indexes on the wrong (smaller) drive and relocated them to the larger drive.  They're now both 96% utilized which is way too close the edge for my comfort!  And that's with another 20G of "flatnodes" that no longer reside in the DB!  Yes, a tile server is a space (and I/O throughput) hog.

                                            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32



                                            On 12/4/2013 3:25 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                                            Ah yes, 8x8, that would explain my confusion.
                                             
                                            I did notice that tiles were rendered for the wide open ocean. Someone was following the ISS probably considering the path.
                                             
                                            Thanks!
                                             
                                            Best regards,
                                            Fred N7FMH
                                             


                                            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                            Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 15:12
                                            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization

                                             

                                            Not quite.  Remember that tile servers work in "meta tiles" which are 8x8 tiles.  Therefore zoom level 3 has 1 meta tile.

                                            0 = 1x1
                                            1 = 2x2
                                            2 = 4x4
                                            3 = 8x8 = 1 meta tile
                                            4 = 16x16 = 4 meta tiles
                                            5 = 32x32 = 16 meta tiles (32/8x32/8=4x4=16)

                                            I don't bother with zooms less than 3 because they're just not that important nor do the OSM changes even really require them to be re-rendered.  There's an entire other learning curve at figuring out how to apply updates to an OSM tile server as well as which tiles are worth marking "dirty" for re-rendering.

                                            And given how fast the Meta Tile presentation gets really small (look at the zoom 13), the tile level will be worse (meta tile level 13 is the same number of tiles as normal tile level 10).

                                            Watch for an update to come to the files in the following URL that show which areas of the globe were invalidated by each update applied to my tile server.

                                            http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/*

                                            The ones in there right now cover March through July of 2012.  I'm crunching the recent log files and will be replacing that set with new ones covering November 2013 to the most recent update.


                                            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                            <snipped images from reply>

                                            On 12/4/2013 3:02 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
                                            Hi Lynn,
                                             
                                            If I understand the picture below, that should be zoom level 0, right? Zoom level 0 has a single tile whereas zoom level three has a total of 16 tiles.
                                             

                                             
                                            And zoom level 5 should have 256 tiles rather than 16.

                                             
                                            Just wondering ...
                                             
                                             
                                            Thanks!
                                             
                                            Best regards,
                                            Fred N7FMH
                                             
                                             


                                            From: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com [mailto:aprsisce@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                            Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 14:13
                                            To: aprsisce@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [aprsisce] Cache Visualization (was: map help)

                                             

                                            On 12/3/2013 9:01 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                                            >
                                            >>>>> How does Mobac display map coverage at different zoom levels?
                                            >> Are we getting OT?
                                            > Yeah, a little, but this has the potential for a future function in
                                            > APRSISCE/32. Not how Lynn is lurking in the shadows, trying to pretend
                                            > he's not seeing any of this potential work for him! :)

                                            Yes, I've been lurking and watching this develop. Consider the following:

                                            http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/*

                                            Look at the DONETILES.LOG-z.jpg files where z is the zoom level. This
                                            isn't exactly map coverage from the APRSISCE/32 cache, but it's a
                                            visualization of which tiles my private OSM tile server has rendered
                                            (not white), how many times it was rendered (number inside), and how
                                            long the rendering of that tile took (colored with scale). But note
                                            that tile servers don't actually render in 256x256 individual tiles, but
                                            use 8x8 of those tiles in what is called a "meta tile". The resolution
                                            of these images is at the meta-tile level.

                                            Given that and the size of those images and the fact that the
                                            APRSISCE/32 cache will be 8 times the count in both directions, just how
                                            do you propose visualizing that on a small-screen device? I know you're
                                            going to tell me that "it's only for a small local area", but remember
                                            that the code needs to handle everyone's needs, not just your's. In my
                                            case, I have tiles cached at various zoom levels from all over the planet.

                                            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32



                                        • Tony VE6MVP
                                          ... That s not an easy solution. It maybe to you but not to the rest of us. Why not use some publicly available set of maps such as the set of OSMAnd maps for
                                          Message 21 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                            At 04:04 PM 2013-12-01, James Ewen wrote:
                                            The easy solution is to pay attention to what you are doing, and use a
                                            grid pattern when moving around the map. It's really easy to do with
                                            APRSISCE/32 as you can use the CTRL-Arrow Keys to move the map in only
                                            horizontal or vertical dimensions.

                                            That's not an easy solution.  It maybe to you but not to the rest of us.

                                            Why not use some publicly available set of maps such as the set of OSMAnd maps for my Android tablet.  I can download all of B.C. or Alberta, provinces or states or smaller countries.   This would save a lot of stuff and confusion with mucking about with snagging tiles for an area.   Granted I have paid for the OSMAnd Android app which allows me to download an unlimited set of maps and updates.     I can appreciate there could be a $0.10 per Gb fee of some sort.

                                            Tony
                                          • James Ewen
                                            Sorry to hijack this thread from a map tile rendering time graphic back towards map cache visualization. I m not going to try and make any fancy graphics, but
                                            Message 22 of 24 , Dec 4, 2013
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                                              Sorry to hijack this thread from a map tile rendering time graphic back towards map cache visualization.

                                              I'm not going to try and make any fancy graphics, but I had to make at least a little.

                                              Inline image 1
                                              So, with the above image, it is depicting a large area that is white, with varying levels of red "tinge".

                                              Any tile with no red would indicate that there is no map tile available (in the cache) for the current zoom level. The full coloured square above (every area with some red) indicates that those tiles are available at the current zoom level. The bottom 40% with the lightest colouring indicates that only tiles at the current zoom level are available. The upper 60% which is darker would indicate that not only are tiles available at the current zoom level, but also one zoom level down as well. Finally, the darkest "L" shaped area would indicate that tiles are available at the current zoom level, one level down, and also one more level down.

                                              Information like this could help a user visualize where they might need to move to be able to gather all the desired tiles for offline use. With the display showing information like above, with internet access, one could move the map around and watch the squares darken as map tiles are downloaded.

                                              It is possible that mid zoom tiles may be missing due to the way that the map was panned around, combined with zoom levels used, but areas that don't have the same "redness" as others around it would indicate that somewhere in stack, some tiles are missing.

                                              The utility here is that one would be able to visualize where tiles may be missing at other zoom levels than what is currently displayed. Currently you have to zoom in and pan around to see if the tiles are available, and could possibly leave gaps if you can't figure out how to move around the desired area in a grid pattern.

                                              One could show tile availability for at least 3 levels below the current zoom level, or even more depending upon how many levels of opacity will be used.

                                              The image above would be seen only if one were to drop the map opacity to where the map tiles are no longer visible. If the map tiles were visible, something similar to below would be seen, but only in red, not the green...




                                              --
                                              James
                                              VE6SRV
                                            • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                              Personally, I prefer prefetching maps by driving a track or GPX line. It s automatic in it s movement so it can run unattended. It paces the movement based on
                                              Message 23 of 24 , Dec 5, 2013
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                                                Personally, I prefer prefetching maps by driving a track or GPX line.  It's automatic in it's movement so it can run unattended.  It paces the movement based on the rate of the tiles coming in.  And eventually it will likely support a "refresh" mode so that once you have such a line configured, you'll be able to "drive" it again fetching newly updated tiles.

                                                I really don't like the area downloads as long as tiles are coming from the OSM tile servers.  We really, really, really don't want to get APRSISCE/32 blocked from the tile servers or we'll all suffer.

                                                I've looked at OSMAnd and they're map format is, IMHO, convoluted and hard for others to adopt.  The library underneath it may or may not figure in when I get around to locally rendering maps, but you can rest assured that such bulk area downloading won't be supported in APRSISCE/32 with tiles but only with original data that is locally rendered.

                                                And until I think I can locally render maps as nice as what we're all being spoiled with by accessing the super-powered and date/compute-intensive tile rendering servers (yes, I run one, I KNOW what "nice" tile rendering requires), I probably won't be implementing sub-standard local rendering of OSM data.

                                                Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

                                                PS.  Just who do you think you'd be paying a $0.10/GB fee to?  I have the free version of OSMAnd loaded on my phone and I also monitor their Google group, but haven't felt compelled to try to adopt it into APRSISCE/32/MO so far.  Every app needs to have a focus and OSM mapping and support definitely seems to be the OSMAnd focus.


                                                On 12/5/2013 12:01 AM, Tony VE6MVP wrote:
                                                At 04:04 PM 2013-12-01, James Ewen wrote:
                                                The easy solution is to pay attention to what you are doing, and use a
                                                grid pattern when moving around the map. It's really easy to do with
                                                APRSISCE/32 as you can use the CTRL-Arrow Keys to move the map in only
                                                horizontal or vertical dimensions.

                                                That's not an easy solution.  It maybe to you but not to the rest of us.

                                                Why not use some publicly available set of maps such as the set of OSMAnd maps for my Android tablet.  I can download all of B.C. or Alberta, provinces or states or smaller countries.   This would save a lot of stuff and confusion with mucking about with snagging tiles for an area.   Granted I have paid for the OSMAnd Android app which allows me to download an unlimited set of maps and updates.     I can appreciate there could be a $0.10 per Gb fee of some sort.

                                                Tony

                                              • Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                                                If you ve ever been curious about where the OSM activity is taking place, I ve updated the images at: http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/* and
                                                Message 24 of 24 , Dec 6, 2013
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                                                  If you've ever been curious about where the OSM activity is taking place, I've updated the images at:

                                                  http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/*

                                                  and reorganized them by month.  Just click on the month of  your interest (like 201312 for this month through the 4th) and click on any image to see which meta tiles across the planet were updated by recent (typically every 4 hours) updates to the OSM database.

                                                  It's interesting to see just how often the country boundaries get touched.  And forget about the lines criss-crossing all over Greenland.  I think they've got some seriously messed up ways in that area.  And also don't ask me about the rectangular areas that keep popping in and out in the polar regions. I've got no idea just who is doing what to cause those tiles to be invalidated.

                                                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


                                                  On 12/4/2013 3:11 PM, Lynn W Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                                                  Watch for an update to come to the files in the following URL that show which areas of the globe were invalidated by each update applied to my tile server.

                                                  http://ldeffenb.dnsalias.net/OSM/Updates/*

                                                  The ones in there right now cover March through July of 2012.  I'm crunching the recent log files and will be replacing that set with new ones covering November 2013 to the most recent update.

                                                  Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

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